What Created "time And Space"?

[Wolfmight]

Ok, first off.. Something allways has a creator from before them. Space created planets, planets created life and humans, humans created the computer, and so on..

Now, What created the very FIRST thing ever, because it's impossible to have a first thing when something allways has to have a creator from before.

Examples:
What created god, and the creator, and the creator of the creator, and so on..

What created time, when time is our begining.. what created the creator of time.. etc.

this is by far, the biggest mystery there will ever be.

... even trillions of generations of creators of time before each other 1 by 1 still dont have a starting point, because.. heh, WHAT CREATED THE STARTING POINT :blink:

[4play]

read up on the big bang.

I have seen a few papers on what created the universe and there are some interesting theories but i could not understand any of them so i have forgetten them now.

:P

[Broken]

perhapes the end of something else...

[j4y3m]

the big bang is what i beleive....volcanos are know for creating land.....a big enough bang would build the world and plants etc witch evolve into humans....get it we are plants :lol:

[Broken]

what was before the big bang and time and space existed?

[Wolfmight]

Originally posted by stupidguy@7 October 2003 - 21:38
the big bang is what i beleive....volcanos are know for creating land.....a big enough bang would build the world and plants etc witch evolve into humans....get it we are plants :lol:
what created the big band?
What created the device which made the big bang itself.
;) Big band might have been god's fart.. lol j/p
^^ actually this does make some sense really...

[j4y3m]

just fire and oxygen when the fire ran out of oxygen it explodes thus the big bang

[Virtualbody1234]

What was here before the big bang and what caused it?

Edit: oops sorry. I had not read all the posts. I see that I repeated the same ideas. :blink:

[Virtualbody1234]

Originally posted by stupidguy@7 October 2003 - 22:47
just fire and oxygen when the fire ran out of oxygen it explodes thus the big bang
Where did the fire and oxygen come from?

[j4y3m]

Originally posted by Virtualbody1234+8 October 2003 - 03:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Virtualbody1234 @ 8 October 2003 - 03:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-stupidguy@7 October 2003 - 22:47
just fire and oxygen when the fire ran out of oxygen it explodes thus the big bang
Where did the fire and oxygen come from? [/b][/quote]
japan where you think :lol:

[Virtualbody1234]

Originally posted by stupidguy+7 October 2003 - 22:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stupidguy @ 7 October 2003 - 22:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Virtualbody1234@8 October 2003 - 03:56
<!--QuoteBegin-stupidguy@7 October 2003 - 22:47
just fire and oxygen when the fire ran out of oxygen it explodes thus the big bang
Where did the fire and oxygen come from?
japan where you think :lol: [/b][/quote]
Which Japan? :lol:

[4play]

I was reading something about there being planes of different dimensions hit into each other creating the big bang.

it is all theoretical at the moment but it was rather boring to read so i did not really pay much attention to detail.

[Virtualbody1234]

"dimensions" eh?

Hmmm, I wonder what they look like?

[Virtualbody1234]

Originally posted by 4play@7 October 2003 - 23:00
I was reading something about there being planes of different dimensions hit into each other creating the big bang.

it is all theoretical at the moment but it was rather boring to read so i did not really pay much attention to detail.
Or is that different air&#39;planes&#39;? :blink: :lol: :lol:

[LeGoMyFnLeg]

Originally posted by Wolfmight@8 October 2003 - 03:19
WHAT CREATED THE STARTING POINT :blink:
What starting point?

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Therefore there can&#39;t be a beginning or end as we think of it because both are the same. (infinite loop theory) ;)



:blink:

[Snee]

Originally posted by 4play@8 October 2003 - 05:00
I was reading something about there being planes of different dimensions hit into each other creating the big bang.

it is all theoretical at the moment but it was rather boring to read so i did not really pay much attention to detail.
Other universes hit each other in m-space, and thus initiated this new one. In m-theory that is.

[lynx]

I thought TimeSpace was by Stevie Nicks.

[Snee]

Once again the silliness ensues. :rolleyes:

But what the heck, here&#39;s a link for y&#39;all: Stevie Nicks (http://www.sararhiannon.com/)

[pol]

Originally posted by 4play@8 October 2003 - 04:00
I was reading something about there being planes of different dimensions hit into each other creating the big bang.

it is all theoretical at the moment but it was rather boring to read so i did not really pay much attention to detail.


a friend mentioned something about that once, &#39;superstring theory&#39; (http://www.lassp.cornell.edu/GraduateAdmissions/greene/greene.html) i think it was

or maybe it was m-theory, didnt notice that there SnnY :-" :"> :D

[Mr. Mulder]

What Created "time And Space"?

I did ...I think :huh:

[Snee]

Basically M-Theory is Superstring theory, with the addition of one more dimension, which, btw, opened the for some very cool theories.

What got me interested(saw this over satellite, in the middle of the night, on BBC prime, having trouble sleeping does have its benefits):Parallel universes. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/parallelunitrans.shtml)

M-Theory (http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_ss.html)
M-Theory (http://www.superstringtheory.fanspace.com/)
M-Theory (http://www.theory.mybravenet.com/)

(I&#39;m on CET, but the good stuff is on waaay after midnight)

[Wolfmight]

Technically from what we know... nothing should exist.

[pol]

Originally posted by Wolfmight@8 October 2003 - 14:25
Technically from what we know... nothing should exist.

well, as jeff goldblum say&#39;s, &#39;life alway&#39;s finds a way&#39;

a little off topic perhaps, but SnnY did any of your late night viewing include the probe thing thats going to be sent to jupiter&#39;s moon io, very interesting i think

[muchspl2]

look into:
dark matter
big bang
quantum tunneling
string theory
big g
and you&#39;ll have a understanding that the rabbit hole goes much deeper
allot bigger than you can ever know

oh, and they proved that Einstein was right about the cosmological constance, so anti gravity does exists, so everything is speeding away from us, at some point everything will be speeding away so fast, slowly galaxies and stars will slowly blink out cause their going away from us faster than light can escape
grim future

[Snee]

Originally posted by pol+8 October 2003 - 15:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (pol &#064; 8 October 2003 - 15:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Wolfmight@8 October 2003 - 14:25
Technically from what we know... nothing should exist.

well, as jeff goldblum say&#39;s, &#39;life alway&#39;s finds a way&#39;

a little off topic perhaps, but SnnY did any of your late night viewing include the probe thing thats going to be sent to jupiter&#39;s moon io, very interesting i think [/b][/quote]
This One? (http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/08/07/io.flyby/)

I&#39;d heard nothing of it, oddly enough, but it is interesting. :)

I&#39;d like to see whether they ever send anything to land on Europa and drill through the ice, there may be life there or so they say. :alien:

[pol]

you got me again SnnY :D

(europa&#39;s the icey one, right :huh:)

as i remember, people were saying that there was no chance at first, lack of light etc. but then they used the comparison with the &#39;vent&#39;s&#39; on the ocean floor.

i remember another thing from tv once - a whole bunch of new species of insects in caves, only thing they lived off was sulphur - no light or anything :blink:

[ilw]

oh, and they proved that Einstein was right about the cosmological constance, so anti gravity does exists, so everything is speeding away from us
Cosmological constance ?
I don&#39;t think theres a consensus on anti-gravity (ie in the same way you have matter-antimatter), but I think theres agreement that theres some force that must be working in the opposite way to gravity.

[Snee]

@pol:Europa is the icey one. Very cool stuff, those sulphur bugs.

Makes it harder for the people who want to believe there&#39;s no life but here.
If your sulphur bugs prove anything, it is that "life finds a way" (your quote").

While I&#39;m at it, something that is really cool about my beloved M-Space is that some people want to apply the "theory of Mediocrity", which basically says that where we are and what we are is nothing special, it&#39;s probably a quite typical feature of reality, to m-space, saying that if there is one universe such as ours there are more. Meaning that m-space if not our universe has more life in it.

More Parallel Universe stuff (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=2)

(Suffice it to say, I&#39;m pretty keen on this stuff :D )

Edit: Spellcheck

[Spindulik]

To begin with, humans precieve time in a linear fashion, thus it is possible to view time as a continuing process that is never ending. However, to precieve time as "always was" (no beginning) is not easily understood. "Time is a preception".

Time only exists because you are here to experience it. "I think, therefore I am".

Before time, there was time.


What is the actual speed of time? You can always cut it in half to the smallest amount, and still have time left.

-------

All matter exists in various forms, such as oxygen, helium, iron etc... due to electrons, which are all basically all the same. Different combinations of atoms form different elements. Scientists invent new elements by splitting atoms.

In short, "stuff" exists becuase "no stuff" exists. The opposite of unoccupied space is occupied space. If absolutely nothing existed, that that would be something.

All of this "stuff" interacts with itself, either magneticallly or electrically, whatever possible means. There is a chaos of energy going on. Which is why a BIG BANG exists, and also total opposite of the BIG BANG (or implosion), which all occurs in a never ending cycle.

Scientists have evidence of a Big Bang, but is it the first one or the 1 millionth one. Or is it an infinite one, since time always existed.

Some people say there MUST be a beginning. That&#39;s because we do come from a beginning, but time existed before we were born. Do you remember what "it" was like before you were born? That&#39;s what "it" will be like when you are dead.

Think about it. You are a thought that is trapped in a fleshy brain. You can think, create ideas, ponder, experience physical pain, etc... But when you die, what was all of that mental capability all about? Wouldn&#39;t it suck if you died and everything was a big nothing, then all of a sudden you were not "you" any more? Then one day a life is created and some how another thinking mind was created and it was "you" again, but not actually you (not re-incarnation), but another essence that has to experienc the process of thinking and feeling pain and emotions. It happens every day, a new life that never existed is born. Another 24/day for 65+ years to learn life all over again.

Who&#39;s to say Earth is the ony place, in a universe that never ends in space and time, to have life on it?

You can use religion to answer those questions, just like the ancient Greeks did with the mythology, and gods. But realistically, why?

God can do anything, so he did this.


--------------------
Why aren&#39;t the American Indians mentioned in the bible? Probably because the bible was written by talent writers in those days, they had no access to that part of the world. Therefore it didn&#39;t exist to them. Surely God would have help those guys a bit more in their story.

[pol]

@SnnY - having never heard of the "theory of Mediocrity" before, it&#39;s quite funny how i implement in my own weekend life. going out to the pub, few beers later and i think &#39;i am the centre of the universe :D, i can do anything&#39; - then when the hangover kicks in, i prefer to lie in a dark room and pretend to myself &#39;this really isnt happening&#39; :D

@Spindulik - nice, well thought out opinon that i wont argue with but i&#39;m sure you could have opened a big can o&#39; worms :P. i agree however that we are held back by our own particular comprehension of things.

at the end of the shift we all have different ideas about stuff, and 10/10 for those who spend their time pondering thing&#39;s i could&#39;nt even comprehend.

[lynx]

Originally posted by Spindulik@8 October 2003 - 15:03
What is the actual speed of time? You can always cut it in half to the smallest amount, and still have time left.
I wonder if that&#39;s true, or if we simply haven&#39;t got anything accurate enough. Logically, following the principle&#39;s of quantum mechanics, time should also be quantised at some level.

[Lamsey]

I just don&#39;t see the point of this Big Bang stuff. It makes no sense to me - something out of nothing.

What&#39;s wrong with the idea that there is no limit to time or space? No beginning, no end.


IMO time and space just are there. They don&#39;t need to be justified.

[noname12]

so why not believe in a greater being who was just there and started it all of :lol:

[MetroStars]

i luv these types of threads...

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Lamsey@8 October 2003 - 11:48
I just don&#39;t see the point of this Big Bang stuff. It makes no sense to me - something out of nothing.

What&#39;s wrong with the idea that there is no limit to time or space? No beginning, no end.


IMO time and space just are there. They don&#39;t need to be justified.
Who said there has to be one big bang. The universe is so big, that maybe there are always is a big bang going on somewhere..

[Marius24]

i believe all this big bang stuff... but what created the big bang :huh:

[titey]

Originally posted by Marius24@8 October 2003 - 11:31
but what created the big bang :huh:
The big burrito&#33; http://members.shaw.ca/wenpigsfly/smileys/badair.gif

[Snee]

Originally posted by Marius24@8 October 2003 - 18:31
i believe all this big bang stuff... but what created the big bang :huh:
Read. this. thread.

[pol]

Read. this. thread.

yep, i think we have it pretty much covered in these three pages :rolleyes: :D

[Snee]

Originally posted by pol@8 October 2003 - 18:48

Read. this. thread.

yep, i think we have it pretty much covered in these three pages :rolleyes: :D
We have at least one theory on this just a page away. :rolleyes:

He could have thought a bit about it, anyhow before he went n00b on the science.
Don&#39;t think he read it.

[pol]

Originally posted by SnnY+8 October 2003 - 17:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY &#064; 8 October 2003 - 17:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-pol@8 October 2003 - 18:48

Read. this. thread.

yep, i think we have it pretty much covered in these three pages :rolleyes: :D
We have at least one theory on this just a page away. :rolleyes:

[/b][/quote]
yep, but isnt everything "just a page away. :rolleyes:" :P

[Snee]

:mellow: :huh: :D

:P

[l_p_4_7]

Woah, this thread really is deep&#33;

This is officially the deepest thread ever.

Or is that forever? :lol:

[Snee]

Originally posted by Spindulik+8 October 2003 - 17:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 8 October 2003 - 17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@8 October 2003 - 11:48
I just don&#39;t see the point of this Big Bang stuff. It makes no sense to me - something out of nothing.

What&#39;s wrong with the idea that there is no limit to time or space? No beginning, no end.


IMO time and space just are there. They don&#39;t need to be justified.
Who said there has to be one big bang. The universe is so big, that maybe there are always is a big bang going on somewhere.. [/b][/quote]
The big gang-bang in the sky...

[Biggles]

If you have the time you will find the space. :blink:

[bigboab]

The human mind cannot comprehend infinity and never will.

[Gemby!]

Originally posted by Wolfmight@8 October 2003 - 03:19


Examples:
What created god, and the creator, and the creator of the creator, and so on..

What created time, when time is our begining.. what created the creator of time.. etc.

this is by far, the biggest mystery there will ever be.

... even trillions of generations of creators of time before each other 1 by 1 still dont have a starting point, because.. heh, WHAT CREATED THE STARTING POINT :blink:
its also a mystery you will never ever find out the answer to

[«°¤§téålth§t®îk餰»]

Originally posted by Wolfmight@8 October 2003 - 03:19
Ok, first off.. Something allways has a creator from before them. Space created planets, planets created life and humans, humans created the computer, and so on..

Now, What created the very FIRST thing ever, because it&#39;s impossible to have a first thing when something allways has to have a creator from before.

Examples:
What created god, and the creator, and the creator of the creator, and so on..

What created time, when time is our begining.. what created the creator of time.. etc.

this is by far, the biggest mystery there will ever be.

... even trillions of generations of creators of time before each other 1 by 1 still dont have a starting point, because.. heh, WHAT CREATED THE STARTING POINT :blink:
I didn&#39;t want to read through the whole thread, so I&#39;ll just skip and answer your question directly.

There is a site DrDino.com (http://www.drdino.com) that is owned by Dr. Kent Hovind. He is a person who has spent most of his life speaking and teaching on Creation vs Evolution. Before that he was a science class teacher for 15 years.

You can have him explain Creation and Evolution (he does it better) with the links below.

You can see his videos here:


http&#58;//www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=real_video

OR

You can hear his MP3s here:


http&#58;//www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=mp3

Personally, I believe that both Creation and Evolution are a RELIGION. You need to BELIEVE that there was a big bang, even though there is no proof what exploded etc.

In essence Creation is: "In the beginning God" and Evolution is: "In the beginning dirt".

Hope that helps&#33;

:P :D :P :D :P

[Biggles]

Interesting link. I was taught at school that evolution was a best fit theory not a fact.

I fear Dr. Dino is setting up straw men in order to knock them down. I think the assertion that evolution is not supported by scripture says it all - one to avoid. :(

[«°¤§téålth§t®îk餰»]

Originally posted by Biggles@8 October 2003 - 20:05
Interesting link. I was taught at school that evolution was a best fit theory not a fact.

I fear Dr. Dino is setting up straw men in order to knock them down. I think the assertion that evolution is not supported by scripture says it all - one to avoid. :(
If you say theory, then isn&#39;t Creation a theory? We all need to look at evidence. If you spend some time to actually see what evolutionist have to say, then I think that it has no solid proof, missing links, big bang (what exploded), where are the ape men? Monkey&#39;s are still having little monkey babies, right?

And you last part of your sentence doesn&#39;t make much sense: "I think the assertion that evolution is not supported by scripture says it all - one to avoid."

Please clarify. :lol:

[marine_aart]

Originally posted by Spindulik+8 October 2003 - 17:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 8 October 2003 - 17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@8 October 2003 - 11:48
I just don&#39;t see the point of this Big Bang stuff. It makes no sense to me - something out of nothing.

What&#39;s wrong with the idea that there is no limit to time or space? No beginning, no end.


IMO time and space just are there. They don&#39;t need to be justified.
Who said there has to be one big bang. The universe is so big, that maybe there are always is a big bang going on somewhere.. [/b][/quote]
well, I saw a video on school 2day, and it showed that the big bang theorys said, the big bang created the universe, and the universe is still growing, but after the explode, their might be an implode (scary ID, but luckily they think it wil last some billion years :P)

[noname12]

Originally posted by bigboab@8 October 2003 - 19:38
The human mind cannot comprehend infinity and never will.
There is an infinate creation... numbers, and there is infinate space.

[Biggles]

Scripture is not a science it is the text which supports faith. Scripture is not specific to any particular religion - all faiths have scripture.

Faith by defintition is believing that which cannot be known - if it can be known it is not faith but simply knowledge.

Evolution and the big bang are two quite seperate theories and are not co-dependants. I do not necessarily subscribe wholeheartedly to either but both are workable theories.

The fact that there are many different types of monkeys around today is not particularly relevant to the possibility that one or two specific types of monkeys may (or may not) have evolved into man like creatures some of which died out some of which were successful. I don&#39;t think anyone has suggested that chimps or howler monkeys or whatever evolved into man.

I have no problem with evolution being a theory and that it might be replaced with something completely different tomorrow on the discovery of new evidence or a theory with a better fit to the fossil eveidence. In this respect it is completely unlike a religion in that most religious adherents place as a central plank of their faith the fact that their revelation is full and complete and cannot be changed or altered.

I do accept that some people say they believe in evolution in much the same way as people say they believe in one of the many divine creation myths. I suspect that such people are simply saying I don&#39;t believe in the supernatural so something scientific will do. If the theory changes they will simply go along with the flow - again this is unlike a religion and I think would best be described as simple laziness.

I also have no difficulty with people obtaining a rich experience from religious beliefs - I just don&#39;t think trying to make the evidence fit literal translations of documents that were never intended to be taken literally is a profitable exercise.
That doesn&#39;t mean, as I said on some other thread, that I rule out the intelligent design theory of the universe. There is nothing fundamentally inherent in evolution that precludes an initial on switch being flicked.

I did not mean to be rude about your site I just didn&#39;t think it added anything to the debate.

[the_faceman]

Like some people have touched on already, i believe that humans will never learn enough about the universe (or whatever you and/or i exist in) to even begin to understand it. I also believe that the various Laws of Physics etc are most likely wrong to some extent, even when they work perfectly within the confines of our knowledge.

Our perceptions are based on instinct, knowledge gained by ourselves, and knowledge fed to us through literature, science and the media.

We quote pages on string theory etc, but there is nothing conclusive, and who&#39;s to say that results of experiments that hold within the parameters of the particular experiment apply to the whole spectrum of possibilities.

Basically i think that the only certainty is that with humankind&#39;s current level of knowledge, ANYTHING is possible, even the unbelieveable.

Even "out-there" possibilities like the universe is only a figment of your imaginination. i don&#39;t believe this to be true, but who&#39;s to say it&#39;s not. If a scientist proves it to you, you could have just made the scientist up in your own thought processes. Maybe you&#39;re the dream of another lifeform, our lifetime which seems long at about 80 years, could in fact be a small blip in the life of whatever is creating you in their dream. Or the comical idea at the end of Men In Black, that our universe is held within the bauble in the collar of a cat.

I&#39;m rambling a bit, but basically you can&#39;t trust yourself to rationalise anything. There is no way to prove anything to be true or not true, except in the realm of our own understanding, which probably doesn&#39;t encompass a tiny percentage of everything that exists/doesn&#39;t exist.

[bigboab]

Originally posted by the_faceman@8 October 2003 - 21:53
Like some people have touched on already, i believe that humans will never learn enough about the universe (or whatever you and/or i exist in) to even begin to understand it. I also believe that the various Laws of Physics etc are most likely wrong to some extent, even when they work perfectly within the confines of our knowledge.

Our perceptions are based on instinct, knowledge gained by ourselves, and knowledge fed to us through literature, science and the media.

We quote pages on string theory etc, but there is nothing conclusive, and who&#39;s to say that results of experiments that hold within the parameters of the particular experiment apply to the whole spectrum of possibilities.

Basically i think that the only certainty is that with humankind&#39;s current level of knowledge, ANYTHING is possible, even the unbelieveable.

Even "out-there" possibilities like the universe is only a figment of your imaginination. i don&#39;t believe this to be true, but who&#39;s to say it&#39;s not. If a scientist proves it to you, you could have just made the scientist up in your own thought processes. Maybe you&#39;re the dream of another lifeform, our lifetime which seems long at about 80 years, could in fact be a small blip in the life of whatever is creating you in their dream. Or the comical idea at the end of Men In Black, that our universe is held within the bauble in the collar of a cat.

I&#39;m rambling a bit, but basically you can&#39;t trust yourself to rationalise anything. There is no way to prove anything to be true or not true, except in the realm of our own understanding, which probably doesn&#39;t encompass a tiny percentage of everything that exists/doesn&#39;t exist.
[QUOTE] I agree. So do I.

[Wolfmight]

Well.. for one thing god probably doesnt really control this earth/solar system much.. or not at all. He/them is part of a higher race who have trillians and trillians of Universes floating around. And then, god&#39;s "Universe" is also just a tiny universe of an even higher race.
What if the forever loop just repeated all the way to the very lowest class? heh the race called: Atoms of Atoms of Atoms of Forever so on...

Heh, kinda gives me the idea that you can go fowards or backwards in races forever.

oh yea, the gods (higher race) above us probably have 1 trillian times the brainpower atleast. They probably study something waaay beyond infinity and time.
They talk to each other instantly with 100% accuracy.
They are probably mortal just like us.

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Biggles@8 October 2003 - 16:05
Interesting link. I was taught at school that evolution was a best fit theory not a fact.

I fear Dr. Dino is setting up straw men in order to knock them down. I think the assertion that evolution is not supported by scripture says it all - one to avoid. :(
What?

Bacteria, virus, and micro-organisms evolve at alarming rates&#33;

Evolution is not supported by scripture, nor is it discounted by the scriptures either. As I said before the scriptures (or bible) made no mention of the American Indians, doesn&#39;t mean they didn&#39;t exist.

If you believe in GOD, then this is the way God planned it. Not too hard to accept. How else do you want God to prepare a world for man to live on? Any 7-Day Evangelists on this forum board? From what I gather, they believe that the earth is actually a few thousand years old, created in 7 days. That&#39;s it. Also, they have a reason or explanation for all questions including dinosaurs, carbon testing as a fraud, etc... I don&#39;t think they believe in "light years", because that violates their belief. The stars that you see at night takes hundreds of thousands of years for the light to travel from them to the earth. So actually, you are viewnig the history of the stars. The light from the sun takes about 9 minutes to reach the earth.

[«°¤§téålth§t®îk餰»]

Originally posted by Biggles@8 October 2003 - 21:48
Scripture is not a science it is the text which supports faith. Scripture is not specific to any particular religion - all faiths have scripture.

Faith by defintition is believing that which cannot be known - if it can be known it is not faith but simply knowledge.

Evolution and the big bang are two quite seperate theories and are not co-dependants. I do not necessarily subscribe wholeheartedly to either but both are workable theories.

The fact that there are many different types of monkeys around today is not particularly relevant to the possibility that one or two specific types of monkeys may (or may not) have evolved into man like creatures some of which died out some of which were successful. I don&#39;t think anyone has suggested that chimps or howler monkeys or whatever evolved into man.

I have no problem with evolution being a theory and that it might be replaced with something completely different tomorrow on the discovery of new evidence or a theory with a better fit to the fossil eveidence. In this respect it is completely unlike a religion in that most religious adherents place as a central plank of their faith the fact that their revelation is full and complete and cannot be changed or altered.

I do accept that some people say they believe in evolution in much the same way as people say they believe in one of the many divine creation myths. I suspect that such people are simply saying I don&#39;t believe in the supernatural so something scientific will do. If the theory changes they will simply go along with the flow - again this is unlike a religion and I think would best be described as simple laziness.

I also have no difficulty with people obtaining a rich experience from religious beliefs - I just don&#39;t think trying to make the evidence fit literal translations of documents that were never intended to be taken literally is a profitable exercise.
That doesn&#39;t mean, as I said on some other thread, that I rule out the intelligent design theory of the universe. There is nothing fundamentally inherent in evolution that precludes an initial on switch being flicked.

I did not mean to be rude about your site I just didn&#39;t think it added anything to the debate.
Science has started to catch up to many things in the Bible. Such as there being more than just 3 dimensions (Ephesians 3:18). Dinosaurs found in the book of Job, springs in the ocean etc.

The Bible is truth, it was written by real people with God guiding their hands (so to speak).

BTW, I never said the Bible was science I said that it has some answers to the theory of how we got here. More like truth and facts.

You can&#39;t give me a deffinate answer of how we got here either.

Were you there when the big bang occured?

Do you know anyone who was?

Did you see monkey&#39;s evolve?

If you tell me that there are variations of monkey&#39;s then I&#39;ll agree with you, but they are MONKEYS&#33;.

But that&#39;s not what evolution teaches, it teaches that monkeys turned to humans. "From the goo, to the zoo, to YOU&#33;"


Answer me these questions:

Can you prove there is no God and that He did not create everything including you and me?


Then you in turn will ask me:

Can you prove that there was no big bang?


I&#39;ll probably asnwer the SAME AS YOU, "No I can&#39;t prove it".


SO they both need to be BELIEVED, it takes faith to believe in evolution and it takes faith to believe there is a God.

Both = Religion

Go back and take a look at that site I gave earlier. Watch at least one of his videos. You&#39;ll see what I&#39;m saying.

:P :D :P :D :P

[billyfridge]

Originally posted by bigboab@8 October 2003 - 19:38
The human mind cannot comprehend infinity and never will.
I agree there are mysteries we will never explain, thoughts, dey ja vous, women
moderators, :lol: to name but a few

[Biggles]

:D

I like "from goo to zoo to you" - never seen that before - most apt.

You are starting with an a&#39; priori assumption in that you believe a particular set of scriptures were inspired by God - as opposed to any other religions&#39; scriptures not being inspired by God presumably.

From my point of view all scriptures contain a mixture of history, moral philosophy and observation of the human condition. They are valuable on many respects and are not without some merit. I would not for one moment say they were bunk but they do major on symbolism rather than scientific accuracy - this is no bad thing.

I am not an apologist for evolution I merely think it is a better fit than a creation myth (no matter how much fun these are - and I particularly like the Egyptian one which throws masturbation into a whole new light :rolleyes: ). As to the big bang, well I am not sure about that one. I rather think it is turtles all the way down and as someone said above, infinity is a tricky thing for a brain to handle.

I have no faith in evolution - it makes not one jot of difference to my life if it is right or wrong - it is merely an interesting theory nothing more nothing less. It does not require a leap of faith because I am happy to entertain more than one theory at a time. I rather suspect if you went to your Church (assuming you are a Church goer) and said "I am entertaining more than one religion at the moment and intend to attend the Mosque on Fridays" you may find the Pastor would quickly find time in his busy schedule to "council" you. Religions tend to be mutally exclusive although I do accept New Age ideas are blending things like Wicca and Bhuddism and Christianity, which is rather nice and ecumenical (as Father Jack would say).

Neither of us can prove that any of the theories or beliefs we subscribe to are 100% right. We each must go with the weight of evidence we find.

Incidentaly, I do not think religion and evolution are mutually exclusive. There are many devout people comfortable with this and do not find any inherent contradiction and, although not my position, neither do I.

On the other hand, there are those on the religious side of the equation that believe literally that the world is only 6000 years old and that dinosaur bones were placed on earth by malign forces to fool the faithful. One does not have to go back far to find similar people giving Coperincus a hard time. I suspect the problem is not the science but simply that they struggle with the infinity thing more than most.

Like I said, I am not sure the site you refer to adds much to any side of the argument. It is probably better suited to those who are looking for some comfort that a more literal translation of the texts they hold dear is viable. To which I say "and why not".