caratnetworks

[zero1]

Hello all, caratnetworks is still accepting torrent site hosting on their VPS? As I see, many big sites has chosen to host there, but maybe they have different rules for colocation and dedicated servers.
Thanks,
zero1

[Slickerey]

A VPS is a slice of a server, so you can basically host a "small" tracker if you're with those guys.

I highly doubt they would say anything about it anyways.

[dvdasacd]

It's not that Carat accept torrent sites and other hosts don't, but AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) torrent sites are technically legal in Canada. Thus it's perfectly legal to host it - on Carat's part. OR any other Canadian host. What.CD are in Canada, but not Carat.

[Artemis]

Aaaah yes the host with the dodgy hard drives. Carat was FTWR's host and the major reason why that torrent site is not with us any more, that wasn't the only data failure, just the most unrecoverable one.

[pretend]

Aaaah yes the host with the dodgy hard drives. Carat was FTWR's host and the major reason why that torrent site is not with us any more, that wasn't the only data failure, just the most unrecoverable one.

Not making backups was the major reason.

[dvdasacd]

Aaaah yes the host with the dodgy hard drives. Carat was FTWR's host and the major reason why that torrent site is not with us any more, that wasn't the only data failure, just the most unrecoverable one.I'm sorry, is this a joke? Sure, it's just a torrent site, but facts are facts. I can understand the anger (if I am correct in detecting some there), but if you care about that torrent site (I don't know you that well so am not sure) then let me take you seriously:

First of all, I am still shocked and appalled every time someone reminds me of FTWR and what happened, and will continue to for a long time. Secondly, I am baffled as to why you are shifting the blame from what was an incredible mistake on staff's part (and imo, unprofessional, not to mention deafeningly embarrassing), to something else.

No one's perfect and we're all humans who make mistakes but whoever was responsible (M4rduK I guess?) has a lot to recover in terms of their reputation. I thought doing regular off-site backups was a basic principle of website management 101.

[n00bz0r]

a dev/sysop from ftwr created a script for backing up site DB automatically on another server via FTP. the script is available on gazelle forums.
MySQL and Web Backup Script (http://85.17.87.6/viewtopic.php?id=286)

the irony..

[ca_aok]

The problem wasn't a lack of backups, the problem was the backups were stored on the same hard drive as the site.

[pretend]

The problem wasn't a lack of backups, the problem was the backups were stored on the same hard drive as the site.

Smart idea, isn't it? :pinch:

[dvdasacd]

The problem wasn't a lack of backups, the problem was the backups were stored on the same hard drive as the site.yeah....aka lack of backups :).

[Artemis]

Aaaah yes the host with the dodgy hard drives. Carat was FTWR's host and the major reason why that torrent site is not with us any more, that wasn't the only data failure, just the most unrecoverable one.I'm sorry, is this a joke? Sure, it's just a torrent site, but facts are facts. I can understand the anger (if I am correct in detecting some there), but if you care about that torrent site (I don't know you that well so am not sure) then let me take you seriously:

First of all, I am still shocked and appalled every time someone reminds me of FTWR and what happened, and will continue to for a long time. Secondly, I am baffled as to why you are shifting the blame from what was an incredible mistake on staff's part (and imo, unprofessional, not to mention deafeningly embarrassing), to something else.

No one's perfect and we're all humans who make mistakes but whoever was responsible (M4rduK I guess?) has a lot to recover in terms of their reputation. I thought doing regular off-site backups was a basic principle of website management 101.

I was stating a known fact, carat networks servers have reliability problems. There are other instances of hard drive failures which have directly affected other torrent sites. Now I know hard drive failures are a fact of life, but when we are talking multiple failures in the same data center then it becomes a reliability issue as well. The backup scheme that ftwr had in place simply did not take into account hard drive failure, since in a data center it is supposed to be a rare occurrence (part of the money you pay if you look at a contract is for physical maintenance of the server you are leasing).
It is the administrator/coder's responsibility for database maintenance for the site, M4rduK may well have been unaware of the backup scheme in place.
The point I am trying to make is this failure happened in a managed environment, it's not aunties PC that finally committed suicide after 5 years of abuse, this is a datacenter, they specifically make money from leasing out maintained servers. It is the fact that I am aware of other failures which brought me to comment on carat's reliability, since without the catastrophic hard drive failure in the first place, this would not even be a debate.
One final thought though, for all those who are angered over the lack of an external backup, I have a question for you. Have you ever lost data through lack of a backup yourself ? I doubt if there is a person here who claim that they have not lost data, and remember they were paying with the maintenance part of the contract, for this not to happen.

[Tv Controls you]

I was stating a known fact, carat networks servers have reliability problems. There are other instances of hard drive failures which have directly affected other torrent sites. Now I know hard drive failures are a fact of life, but when we are talking multiple failures in the same data center then it becomes a reliability issue as well. The backup scheme that ftwr had in place simply did not take into account hard drive failure, since in a data center it is supposed to be a rare occurrence (part of the money you pay if you look at a contract is for physical maintenance of the server you are leasing).
It is the administrator/coder's responsibility for database maintenance for the site, M4rduK may well have been unaware of the backup scheme in place.
The point I am trying to make is this failure happened in a managed environment, it's not aunties PC that finally committed suicide after 5 years of abuse, this is a datacenter, they specifically make money from leasing out maintained servers. It is the fact that I am aware of other failures which brought me to comment on carat's reliability, since without the catastrophic hard drive failure in the first place, this would not even be a debate.
One final thought though, for all those who are angered over the lack of an external backup, I have a question for you. Have you ever lost data through lack of a backup yourself ? I doubt if there is a person here who claim that they have not lost data, and remember they were paying with the maintenance part of the contract, for this not to happen.

Where is your source for this data protection plan?

[Artemis]

It is not a data protection plan, if you re-read my post, it is hardware maintenance I am talking about, the physical maintenance of the server racks and servers in the datacenter, and this you do pay for as part of your contract when you lease a server. Server racks typically include hardware monitoring as well as in-line power filtering and UPS protection, as well as being kept in a temperature and humidity controlled environment.
The fact that this is not an isolated incident, is why I commented on Carat's reliability.

[dvdasacd]

I don't care whether carat have HDD reliability problems or not, that's not the issue. The issue is, NEVER rely on your host to keep backups of your site database! A "backup" is not a backup if it's on the same server! This is ALL about the basic issue of making site backups, not what your host is "responsible" for!

Recoverability by the host is an emergency situation when the worst has happened. It is the site owner's (M4rduK's) responsibility to have things set up so that "catastrophic" scenario doesn't HAVE to happen! :rolleyes: A HDD crash is something you should be *prepared* for, NOT just allow it to be a sitting duck and expect that the data will all be recoverable! (yeah, pun intended.)

I'm sorry but this is farcical. I'm still baffled as ever, as to why you're defending M4rduK when FTWR's demise was clearly his fault. The HDD failure may have been "catastrophic" but what was even more catastrophic is the mistake M4rduK made. Why can't humble pie be eaten? I include it as regular part of my diet, it doesn't taste the best but it's very good for you...

[Tv Controls you]

I don't care whether carat have HDD reliability problems or not, that's not the issue. The issue is, NEVER rely on your host to keep backups of your site database! A "backup" is not a backup if it's on the same server! This is ALL about the basic issue of making site backups, not what your host is "responsible" for!

Recoverability by the host is an emergency situation when the worst has happened. It is the site owner's (M4rduK's) responsibility to have things set up so that "catastrophic" scenario doesn't HAVE to happen! :rolleyes: A HDD crash is something you should be *prepared* for, NOT just allow it to be a sitting duck and expect that the data will all be recoverable! (yeah, pun intended.)

I'm sorry but this is farcical. I'm still baffled as ever, as to why you're defending M4rduK when FTWR's demise was clearly his fault. The HDD failure may have been "catastrophic" but what was even more catastrophic is the mistake M4rduK made. Why can't humble pie be eaten? I include it as regular part of my diet, it doesn't taste the best but it's very good for you...

It's his fault a hard drive failed..... lol...
It's western digital's fault I guarantee it was one of their drives lol.

There are so many freak scenarios that could happen you can't prepare for them all.

[ca_aok]

I don't care whether carat have HDD reliability problems or not, that's not the issue. The issue is, NEVER rely on your host to keep backups of your site database! A "backup" is not a backup if it's on the same server! This is ALL about the basic issue of making site backups, not what your host is "responsible" for!

Recoverability by the host is an emergency situation when the worst has happened. It is the site owner's (M4rduK's) responsibility to have things set up so that "catastrophic" scenario doesn't HAVE to happen! :rolleyes: A HDD crash is something you should be *prepared* for, NOT just allow it to be a sitting duck and expect that the data will all be recoverable! (yeah, pun intended.)

I'm sorry but this is farcical. I'm still baffled as ever, as to why you're defending M4rduK when FTWR's demise was clearly his fault. The HDD failure may have been "catastrophic" but what was even more catastrophic is the mistake M4rduK made. Why can't humble pie be eaten? I include it as regular part of my diet, it doesn't taste the best but it's very good for you...
I recall having this discussion with one of their staff members, the response was "well we couldn't afford a second server". I think backups were kept only in case someone accidentally deleted random DB lines. I inquired as to why they simply didn't back them up on someone's home computer, the response was of course, security. When I suggested they should've just stored backups in a truecrypt container, the conversation stagnated pretty quickly :naughty:


It's his fault a hard drive failed..... lol...
It's western digital's fault I guarantee it was one of their drives lol.

There are so many freak scenarios that could happen you can't prepare for them all.
Both WD and Seagate (common external HD manufacturers, the drives in question are likely neither) have people that swear to their quality, in addition to those who have had catastrophic failures. Personally, I've yet to have a WD external fail on me, but at the end of the day those drives are unreliable and you should really keep backups ;)

[Artemis]

I'm sorry but this is farcical. I'm still baffled as ever, as to why you're defending M4rduK when FTWR's demise was clearly his fault. The HDD failure may have been "catastrophic" but what was even more catastrophic is the mistake M4rduK made. Why can't humble pie be eaten? I include it as regular part of my diet, it doesn't taste the best but it's very good for you...

You seem easily baffled, but also seem to need someone to blame, in that M4rduK is not the right person for your anger. He was a. not the owner of the site, b.just another member of staff, one who progressed through the ranks over the years from mod to admin, and very very recently to sysop when JGG stepped down. As I also explained, database control and backup was the job of the coders for the site. If you do feel so strongly about this though maybe you should talk to him directly since this boils your bunny so much. He is staff on other trackers and available on several irc channels on the bend network for you to explain your extreme disappointment.

I agree that the demise of the site was ultimately due to the lack of an off-site backup and as Ca aok suggested there are several ways around this but then hindsight is a marvelous thing, and this is not the first torrent site that closed due to lack of backup and probably won't be the last.
I still think with my knowledge of other recent failures that Carat has reliability problems.

[pro267]

Carat does have reliability issues. I know of at least 3 sites hosted there who have had HDDs failing on them, multiple times.

Also, to comment on a previous post, while filesharing in Canada is legal, running a tracker is not.

[dvdasacd]

I'm sorry but this is farcical. I'm still baffled as ever, as to why you're defending M4rduK when FTWR's demise was clearly his fault. The HDD failure may have been "catastrophic" but what was even more catastrophic is the mistake M4rduK made. Why can't humble pie be eaten? I include it as regular part of my diet, it doesn't taste the best but it's very good for you...

You...seem to need someone to blameYeah...you see that as a Problem? :P I don't ;).


As I also explained, database control and backup was the job of the coders for the site. If you do feel so strongly about this though maybe you should talk to him directly since this boils your bunny so much. He is staff on other trackers and available on several irc channels on the bend network for you to explain your extreme disappointment.

Thing is, I'm not angry :). Not at FTWR, not at <insert FTWR owner here, who I thought was M4rduK but alright whoeever it is>. I was never there and never wanted to join it either. But annoyed, yes - at how you argued it was all Carat's fault - annoyed on a pure logical level. (with nothing to do with whether I think carat are a good host or not - since that is irrelevant to the issue.)

I know ilias, and he is a cool guy. I have much respect for him from what I know of him and from conversation I've had with him. He's the type of person who I would be shocked if I found him to be responsable for such a stupid thing - no matter my regard for him . But I don't deem ilias responsable anyway, I deem the owner 95% responsability and only think that other staff should have a. thought of it, b. checked it and c. seeing that it wasn't being done, vehemently suggested it to the owner and I'm sorry, but I would [b]never staff at a site that didn't make a (secure? sure, noobzor showed how that was viable!) off-site backup and constantly existed in the possibility that in one second the entire thing could be lost forever. I wouldn't even want to be a member of such a site. It's a tragedy to those who valued FTWR and a joke to others who didn't (and who tend to laugh at such things). To me, it's just pure WHAT DIDN'T YOU DO?

You're the one who I think I can detect some anger (at FTWR's demise) in. Am i right? From your first post, it sounded really bitter. Thing is, i don't have anything wrong with that, we're all human beings, not vulcans, my only problem was you shifting the primary blame from what the real cause was. See I think it important for people to know, and for others to learn from it - I'm motivated by the desire to run a tracker well, and to see others to do the same. This is why I'm so loud-mouthed about what I think are "failsites", too. I'm just sick of them, we should strive for excellence, not be content with mediocrity. In this age of tracker saturation it's a waste of time caring for what's not the best ("best" is subjective but whatever that means to you, apply it). So a skeptical judgement when you see or hear about a new site should be always held, imo.


I agree that the demise of the site was ultimately due to the lack of an off-site backup and as Ca aok suggested there are several ways around this but then hindsight is a marvelous thing, and this is not the first torrent site that closed due to lack of backup and probably won't be the last.I can agree to that. :/


Also, to comment on a previous post, while filesharing in Canada is legal, running a tracker is not.
You'd have to find what whatman has said (maybe in his what.cd 2nd anniversary interview). He's sent emails back to rights holders saying there's nothing he's going to do about their complaint because it's not illegal where the site is hosted. It's some technicality - in how the torrent files are stored (or not stored, actually) on the server. i think.

[Tv Controls you]

dvdasacd you are one to easily critique every tacker and say your not content with mediocrity.
I think you should get some experience in running a tracker to really understand the responsibility and dedication it takes to make it all happen.

Also the fact that you weren't a member of FTWR drops all credibility for your posts, as you have no idea how the tracker was ran.
The only thing you know about is how it went under.

[dvdasacd]

dvdasacd you are one to easily critique every tacker and say your not content with mediocrity.
I think you should get some experience in running a tracker to really understand the responsibility and dedication it takes to make it all happen.

I know I'm always so critical, it's my nature...I may go overboard with it sometimes...and I fear it sometimes comes across as arrogant :unsure:...just don't get me wrong, there are LOTS of GREAT trackers out there. Including new ones, too.....with BTN, I quietly thought at first it was going to be a waste of time (for a certain reason I won't say, but some people might be able to guess), but then within a few days it turned around into me LOVING the place and thinking it's well on the way to being the best TV tracker out there. On sheer awesomeness in pretty much every way. Now I'm using the phrase "it's like the BTN of <insert niche here>."

So no it's not some automatic critique of new sites, or sites in general...there's a ton of great trackers out there. And I also recognise that a tracker's not all about looking amazing, or having unique content or even a _lot_ of content (or good pretimes etc). Most "good" trackers out there (in my view) actually don't have a lot of those traits - but they might have a loyal community that continues to go there everyday, for whatever reason(s). And that's enough for it to be a good tracker.

But there's 1000% more fail trackers out there too. You see these sites come and go and after time it's not hard to predict, with pretty good accuracy, whether something's going to fail or not. And fail doesn't have to mean closing down...if the owner has money to keep hosting the site it'll just be a ghost-town as long as he keeps paying for it...several sites are like that. And they are failsites to me.


Also the fact that you weren't a member of FTWR drops all credibility for your posts, as you have no idea how the tracker was ran.
The only thing you know about is how it went under.

Credibility is up to you to decide, FST allows free speech which is great. If you don't care what I say then it doesn't matter to you. Also, I might be wrong, for all you think. Perhaps you've expressed that, and that's fine with me. :cool: I'll still be a loudmouth though :P

[pro267]

Also, to comment on a previous post, while filesharing in Canada is legal, running a tracker is not.
You'd have to find what whatman has said (maybe in his what.cd 2nd anniversary interview). He's sent emails back to rights holders saying there's nothing he's going to do about their complaint because it's not illegal where the site is hosted. It's some technicality - in how the torrent files are stored (or not stored, actually) on the server. i think.
July '08 ruling in Canadian court, forcing the shut down of Quebec Torrent:
http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/canadian-court-shuts-down-quebec-torrent-site

I rest my case.

[dvdasacd]

You'd have to find what whatman has said (maybe in his what.cd 2nd anniversary interview). He's sent emails back to rights holders saying there's nothing he's going to do about their complaint because it's not illegal where the site is hosted. It's some technicality - in how the torrent files are stored (or not stored, actually) on the server. i think.
July '08 ruling in Canadian court, forcing the shut down of Quebec Torrent:
http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/canadian-court-shuts-down-quebec-torrent-site

I rest my case.Yes but were they hosting torrent files on their server? It's all in the technicalities, by the looks of things...legal matters always are.

[Artemis]

You're the one who I think I can detect some anger (at FTWR's demise) in. Am i right? From your first post, it sounded really bitter. Thing is, i don't have anything wrong with that, we're all human beings, not vulcans, my only problem was you shifting the primary blame from what the real cause was. See I think it important for people to know, and for others to learn from it - I'm motivated by the desire to run a tracker well, and to see others to do the same. This is why I'm so loud-mouthed about what I think are "failsites", too. I'm just sick of them, we should strive for excellence, not be content with mediocrity. In this age of tracker saturation it's a waste of time caring for what's not the best ("best" is subjective but whatever that means to you, apply it). So a skeptical judgement when you see or hear about a new site should be always held, imo.



There was never any anger on my part, feel free to quote any part where I sound bitter ? I was amazed at the tone of your posts, and your anger (from your first post) at the failure of ftwr. I know the staff well, I know alot more about the demise of ftwr than you, and I also know of the reliability problems with their host which you continually discount. That you were not a member and yet you still have these strong feelings strikes me as odd more than anything else,that isn't exactly a normal attitude.
As I have said you should take up your bafflement and disappointment with the staff of the site, I'm sure they would love to hear from you and your ideas on how to run a torrent site efficiently. Since you weren't a member and don't actually know who staffed this may be a problem but I am sure that if you wish to pm me I can give you their details, as I would actually enjoy watching that conversation.

[dvdasacd]

That you were not a member and yet you still have these strong feelings strikes me as odd more than anything else,that isn't exactly a normal attitude.

Well that doesn't matter, does it (and neither does all the previous stuff in that paragraph which I don't need to quote)...that's a side criticism which I don't care about. All I care(d?) about in this thread is the logical argument we had. Which in the end, you more or less agreed with me in (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-caratnetworks-post3390079/postcount17).

But now, I feel you're taking this little back and forth to a personal level (i.e., criticising me on a personal level when now we've finished our initial "debate" about who was primarily responsible for FTWR's demise) which is sad (IF I'M RIGHT, but I seem to be wrong in all my impressions of what you're feeling), because I'm certainly not taking it to a personal level. I haven't resorted to sarcasm like you now have. Emotive tone, yeah sure, but not sarcasm which is an indicator of strong negative personal attitude towards whoever you're directing the sarcasm.

See when I'm wrong in something (a logical debate (where it is NOT a matter of opinion but facts and logical reasoning), a personal decision, something I did or said to somebody), and realise that I was wrong, I am quick to admit it or apoligize or do whatever the appropriate action that's due. I've done it many a time and at many a place. Once again it's called humble pie. Just saying that as a general comment...

In any case, I've enjoyed this back and forth, as from my impressions of you (I've only ever known you from here) I've always thought of you as an intelligent dude with a good sense of humor too, and this back and forth hasn't changed that. In fact if it was some idiot or troll I wouldn't have bothered with the debate.


As I have said you should take up your bafflement and disappointment with the staff of the site, I'm sure they would love to hear from you and your ideas on how to run a torrent site efficiently. Since you weren't a member and don't actually know who staffed this may be a problem but I am sure that if you wish to pm me I can give you their details, as I would actually enjoy watching that conversation.

I have no point to take up my bafflement (n.b. I am NOT "disappointed" at FTWR's staff, only baffled as to why its reason had to happen in the first place) with them directly, why would I do that? My mind is already made up on the issue, there would be no point. You're welcome to link them to this thread if you think it important for them to read it, though. And I can be reached on most of the popular IRCs (p2p-net, what-network) under this very name.

Are you indicating that I might be some sort of chicken, fine with saying it here, but not to their face directly? I don't feel I need to prove I have "balls" to go to FTWR staff and share with them what is in my opinion, and as I have posted above, their catastrophic stupidity. I'm not a proud person, I'm not one to give in to some sort of vain purpose like that. If I were a close friend of theirs though, and would be talking to them on a regular basis already, I would give them a piece of my mind no less than I am declaring on this public thread right now. In that case, and especially if I were a previously "invested" FTWR member, I WOULD be angry....and at them. Furious, in fact. And disappointed. And then a little numb/stale. But hey it's just a torrent site, all good things must come to an end, you've got to move on when that happens, and I would have done that too, in time.

However if you paid me to do it I might :P. I could use some extra cash.....

My only hope (and guess), just for sanity's sake, is that they've changed their view on taking off-side backups for any other sites they're involved in, LOL. HDD failure is something you should *expect*, not something to be viewed as outrageous and unfair.

As a final epilogue to this post,
My name is the same everywhere, I speak my mind, I take my chances and and judge what I think won't have any consequences I don't want to happen, and a lot of the time people respect me for it (true respect is two-way). Others on the other hand may again, think I'm arrogant just because of my strong and vocal views, but I'd rather not give up what I believe in than be concerned with what people think of me. Again, that brings respect in itself... And those people who have a problem with that are probably people who I shouldn't bother with anyway.


As another final addendum to my musings.....I used to be so innocent and not think about matters like this, I don't really like seeing myself as my hardened bt identity that I now have (it's a little tiring to watch sometimes). Sometimes, I wish everything could just go back to my soft innocent bt "childhood" - the blissful downloading and uploading on demonoid and tpb, the simple friendships in file sharing that I had...sigh............can't really go back, can you...

[cinephilia]

funny how people go out of their way just to have the last word. that's what i call misplaced pride.

[Artemis]

Well that doesn't matter, does it (and neither does all the previous stuff in that paragraph which I don't need to quote)...that's a side criticism which I don't care about. All I care(d?) about in this thread is the logical argument we had. Which in the end, you more or less agreed with me in (http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/p-caratnetworks-post3390079/postcount17).


Since you don't seem to grasp what I was trying to say when I say it pleasantly I will now be less subtle. The side criticism that you don't care about is my MAIN concern, I actually think you are a bit mental having a tantrum like your first post over a bit torrent site that you were not a member of. This is NOT sarcasm it is actually amazement that someone could get that wound up over a torrent site that they were not a member of.
I was also surprised at your arrogance in your little speech about running a torrent site correctly and that you look around at all the 'fail sites', who does that ? seriously, gloves off, I think your a fruit loop!

[Tv Controls you]

Well said artemis, I can't even respond to his posts as they are so ridiculous.

Thats like me saying bing is a terrible search engine, even though I never used it.
You have no experience on the site, nor do you know anything about FTWR.

If you make a tracker even half as reputable as FTWR I can respect your criticism.

[anoneemuse]

a vps is a slice of a server, so you can basically host a "small" tracker if you're with those guys.

I highly doubt they would say anything about it anyways.

+1

[buggyfresh]

lol - i couldn't read all that in the last post (i started feeling sleepy) but it was prolly entertaining ass the rest of dvdasacd's responses. Talk about off-topic.

[Real_M4rduK]

I'm not a coder and have never had anything to do with the backup scheme, coding, server maintenance, or hard drives of FTWR. Whatever was going on with all of that was and is a mystery to me.

Carat has different levels of servers and I assume you get what you pay for...if you pay for a bottom of the line server you can expect things to go wrong from time to time (and boy do they). However, with that in mind it would be prudent to be prepared for things to go wrong. FTWR was not prepared unfortunately.