Water Cooling:your Opinions

[SciManAl]

Okay poeple this is my question:

I am wanting to get a fairly quite sys, but that is not a life/death issue, I am however wanting to cool effiecently, and i want to have the opinions stated of those "in the know" or are operating water cooling systems what is better, low Gallons Per Hour or high GPH, i understand that radiaters are always key no mater what to disapate heat, but i want to hear what works best on the pump end... Also what brand type etc... I thank all that respond!

[TheFilePirater]

water cooling is prolly the best thing to cool your pc, but since ur a n00b, i wouldnt recommend it, b/c if a hose leaks, ur pc is gone....id spend a lil money and get some silent fans...

[abu_has_the_power]

yea, since ur new ( i prefer to use kinder terms if i have no grudge) u shouldn't do this. unless ur goin to oc heavily, then theres no point. and u might set it up wrong, and by by pc, and possbily big ass explosion. so, unless u know wat ur doin, don't go near wc

[clocker]

I disagree.

I've seen several water systems that look pretty foolproof and if your main goal is a silent PC then watercooling looks like a viable method.

If you are planning on radically overclocking then a Peltier setup, or even a combo Peltier/H2O system would be the best choice.

Just do some Googlework and check out the options.

[SciManAl]

i am not new to water cooling guys, and i have made 5 pcs now that use them, but i don't have the money to go and expirament each different combo to see whats best...
I am runing a 6 gph witha a dangerden twinfan radiater, (which i put inside a minifreezer, in a tub a water, that turned into ice) I run my 2500 at 3000+ well below 0 degrees anything...

I have done a little on google, i guess i was hoping for a water cooling guru to appear from the heavens(this forumk) and have a ll the anwers and infinite wisdom... ohh well thanks!!!!

[bigdawgfoxx]

If you get the watercooling and don't understand it, then im sure you could take it to a local shop and have them do it. Watercooling seems good to me.

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by SciManAl@27 October 2003 - 18:01
i am not new to water cooling guys, and i have made 5 pcs now that use them
i think somebody owes you an apology for calling you a "n00b."

[TheFilePirater]

im sorry :(

allthough i wouldnt mind watercooling kit under the xmas tree this year.... B)

[muchspl2]

<- wishes he was a water cooling guru
just been afraid, but ill look into it for my next build


any good links for non baptiste computer builders googled came up with plenty, just asking, thanks :)

[_John_Lennon_]

Originally posted by SciManAl@27 October 2003 - 19:26

low Gallons Per Hour or high GPH, i understand that radiaters are always key no mater what to disapate heat, but i want to hear what works best on the pump end... Also what brand type etc... I thank all that respond&#33;
Few things here. (Yes, I know about watercooling).

-You want a pump with a high GPH, simply because its able to circulate the water more, and usually, higher GPH also goes with a further vertical push its able to push the water through, for instance, you wouldnt want a pump that can only push water 1 foot upward, reguardless of how many GPH its listing.

-For the silent thing, remember that alot of radiators have fans on them, usually 120MM ones, because they help dissipate the heat in them, so that fan will always create some noise, but it all depends on where you place your radiator.

-To improve performance a bit, if it works out to your advantage apperance wise, be sure to place the radiator above your CPU block, and all your other waterblocks in the setup for that matter, because if the radiator is above the blocks, convection currents will help pull the hot water upwards into the radiator, keeping the cooler water at the bottom of you system for use in your blocks.

-Add to your water for help wise,
--Dish detergant- to reduce the surface tension of the water, and help reduce bubbles that could form.
--Clothes detergant, (Tide, Gain, etc.) to reduce the buildup of harmful bacteria that will creep into even the most closed of systems. About one little cup ful that comes with the box will do for months, just make sure its not going to corrode your CPU block, or other blocks, (Copper stands up well to corrosion.)


As for the water to use, there are various reasonings on this, and even watter additives, (water wetter) to increase performance, but just rememer to boil your water before hand, to remove inpurities and bacteria at the very list if you are just going to use tap water.

Oh yeah, and as somebody stated, they do have &#39;n00b proof" kits these days, that are simple to install, and have small chances of leaking.

Any other questions?

[_John_Lennon_]

Bump

[abu_has_the_power]

good guide. wish i had the money to buy this. (sigh) anyways, yes. he&#39;s rite. not sure bout the water wetter? huh?

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by TheFilePirater@27 October 2003 - 18:44
allthough i wouldnt mind watercooling kit under the xmas tree this year.... B)
personally i&#39;m not sure if i believe water cooling will be especially desirable for PCs for very much longer, if the so-called "on-chip liquid-cooling" technology works out well. what i&#39;m talking about doesn&#39;t involve water or a pump, but a thin layer (microscopic, even?) of liquid built onto the CPU to aid in cooling. and the upcoming BTX motherboard/case standard is supposed to provide much better ventilation than ATX.

i&#39;m really hoping for a transition to passive cooling (no fans, no pumps) by the entire PC industry. i think there is a growing demand for quieter electronics because more & more people are getting tired of their machines making so much noise. the industry needs to pay more attention to developing efficient passive cooling.

[clocker]

Bravo Brainiac&#33;

I too hope for a better solution.
While they are at it I hope they can upgrade the connector situation also.
Those damn tiny little one wire connectors on a line of pins buried at the bottom of the motherboard really suck.
I&#39;m not a big fan of Molex&#39;s either.

[abu_has_the_power]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+29 October 2003 - 06:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC @ 29 October 2003 - 06:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheFilePirater@27 October 2003 - 18:44
allthough i wouldnt mind watercooling kit under the xmas tree this year.... B)
personally i&#39;m not sure if i believe water cooling will be especially desirable for PCs for very much longer, if the so-called "on-chip liquid-cooling" technology works out well. what i&#39;m talking about doesn&#39;t involve water or a pump, but a thin layer (microscopic, even?) of liquid built onto the CPU to aid in cooling. and the upcoming BTX motherboard/case standard is supposed to provide much better ventilation than ATX.

i&#39;m really hoping for a transition to passive cooling (no fans, no pumps) by the entire PC industry. i think there is a growing demand for quieter electronics because more & more people are getting tired of their machines making so much noise. the industry needs to pay more attention to developing efficient passive cooling. [/b][/quote]
yea, i&#39;ve cn one of those. but u have to buy a separate thing for each chip that u want to cool, and the wc system would be cheaper

[Mad Cat]

In the future I bet all PCs will come in fridges.

[clocker]

Originally posted by Mad Cat@31 October 2003 - 15:26
In the future I bet all PCs will come in fridges.
Jeez, I hope not.

This guy will be your home repair computer tech if that&#39;s true...
http://www.newmandesign.com/plumber.gif

I hope that extreme cooling measures of any kind will soon be history.
It&#39;s really only an issue because for the past decade the manufacturers have concentrated on massively increasing clock speed in order to up the performance of their products.
If they would radically change the architecture of the chips (I&#39;m sure they&#39;d love to, and no, I don&#39;t know how either... :P ) so that speed was overshadowed by efficiency, then heat would cease to be the big problem that it is now.
I&#39;m sure that it&#39;s going to happen.

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by clocker@29 October 2003 - 07:02
Bravo Brainiac&#33;

I too hope for a better solution.
While they are at it I hope they can upgrade the connector situation also.
Those damn tiny little one wire connectors on a line of pins buried at the bottom of the motherboard really suck.
I&#39;m not a big fan of Molex&#39;s either.
okay, it had been a while since i&#39;d read this report, but this is what i was referring to. i was wrong about a few points-- it does use water (although it sounds possible that they could switch to some other liquid by the time it&#39;s released), it does feature a pump, but it&#39;s still radically different from traditional heatsink and watercooling products.

http://www.businesswire.com/photowire/pw.1...232795408.shtml (http://www.businesswire.com/photowire/pw.100603/232795408.shtml)

the circulation of liquid is an active element and it is much closer to the chip than with previous equipment (where you&#39;d have the heatsink --a passive part-- directly on the chip, and then an active part such as a fan or water pump is stacked on top of it).

basically they&#39;re managing to make it effectively more active while creating the appearance of passiveness by eliminating the moving parts and the noise that goes with it. whether it is active or passive in theory, i think getting rid of moving parts in the cooling system is the most important goal.

and here&#39;s a nice little article which talks about BTX and explains how it&#39;s supposed to contribute to smaller cases, better ventilation, and quieter operation.
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1876

the PicoBTX form factor looks awesome, because it appears to be only slightly larger than a laptop computer.

[SciManAl]

hmm... doesn&#39;t the new G5 have water cooling??? i think so i don&#39;t think it a traditional water cooler either... i wonder if could buy it seperate... for REPAIR issues of course... lol not gonna slap it in mine&#33;&#33; well yes i will but my G5 at work is quiet as hell, don&#39;t even know its on... hmmm thanks for replying guys... they have come out with a passive radiater guys only wieghs in at 3 pounds of i think steel. it is avaiable somewhere not sure... thanks for all the input&#33;&#33;&#33;

[abu_has_the_power]

Originally posted by SciManAl@1 November 2003 - 13:47
hmm... doesn&#39;t the new G5 have water cooling??? i think so i don&#39;t think it a traditional water cooler either... i wonder if could buy it seperate... for REPAIR issues of course... lol not gonna slap it in mine&#33;&#33; well yes i will but my G5 at work is quiet as hell, don&#39;t even know its on... hmmm thanks for replying guys... they have come out with a passive radiater guys only wieghs in at 3 pounds of i think steel. it is avaiable somewhere not sure... thanks for all the input&#33;&#33;&#33;
mac company don&#39;t know wat water cooling is&#33; lol. no, g5&#39;s don&#39;t have wc.

[Virtualbody1234]

Again, abu_has_no_power, where do you get your facts ?

http://www.macminute.com/2003/10/07/cooligy

[_John_Lennon_]

That article in no way stated that current Mac G5&#39;s are using water cooling, just that that technique is being developed using mac processors, and AMd and Intel for that matter.

[Virtualbody1234]

I&#39;m not sayin that current G5s use this (maybe future ones). What I&#39;m saying is that the "Mac company" knows what water cooling is.

[abu_has_the_power]

Originally posted by _John_Lennon_@1 November 2003 - 20:24
That article in no way stated that current Mac G5&#39;s are using water cooling, just that that technique is being developed using mac processors, and AMd and Intel for that matter.
yea, virtualbody, quit trying to bite my ass. i was talking about the current g5, not future developments

and yea, the part bout mac&#39;s not knowing bout wc was a sarcastic insult. ok?

please, i&#39;m not 5 u know

[Kunal]

off topic, i notice abu is always proved wrong by virtualbody1234 :lol: :lol: :lol:

[clocker]

Originally posted by Kunal@2 November 2003 - 05:02
off topic, i notice abu is always proved wrong by virtualbody1234 :lol: :lol: :lol:
I sense a Hatfield/McCoy situation abrewin...

[SciManAl]

Hehehe simmer down children... ok one more question i have not had this problem of germs in the water, i assume the bad parts of this is nasty water and clogging of the water ways in a water cooling system.. how bad is that compared to other problems? (your opinions) I am using a ratio that looks like this for the water... your comments???
(out of ten drops this what you get)
4 drops Isopropyl Alchohol
3 drops water additive (came with water resivor, supposed to span the multi metal type bridge...)
3 drops filtered water

i was expiramenting with a mainly alchohol composed water set up(not including commercial additives), i have a somewhat heatpipe pump set up... didn&#39;t intend for it but it does... the alchohol keeps seperating from the water when it evaporates, then it re-enters the water... don&#39;t really now if this helps anything or not lol... anyway, but at 32 gph i have an oced AMD barton 2500+ and i have unlocked it... running at 30 degrees celcius, with radiater fans at 30 Dba (i think that is the acronim) and at 32 degrees celcius when i run the fans at 10 percent, or 5 Dba as stated in my sig i run all this without a peltier, at +3000(stable)and a really high FSB, can&#39;t recall... on an ABIT board... so i think it works well... i also had an acident when a tube kinked and the pump had enough torgue that it actually burst the tubing... (i made the pump my self, reduced gear driven cylinder(like what a car has) low gph, very high torgue(i have pumped water through tubing there and back in ecces of 20 ft) but the alcholhol just evaporated, and i didn&#39;t have that bad of a problem... i have a completly acrylic case, so i saw it when it happened.. i was going insane.. i had drilled some holes in the bottom of the cas so that any water that did leak would get its way the hell outa my case, but there was too much water, when it was all out, i relized that all that was left was the water... sure enough no smell of alchohol... now this is my question... can i run the system with strait alchohol??? i think that is ok with the metals involved copper, and silver... what you think??? (Disclaimer: No motherboards, or other hardware were harmed past repair in the occurance.) tHANKS FOR reSpondIng PoepLE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[racer II]

Originally posted by SciManAl@2 November 2003 - 19:35
now this is my question... can i run the system with strait alchohol???
Well what if anything goes wrong, a tiny leak or so.... i think you will burn down the house.

[SciManAl]

well take my computer, you mine as well take the house too... :P (hehehehe)
no disrespect intended but we are not talking about the kind of alchohol you drink, while this stuff is still somewhat flammable, we are talking about the stuff you putt on a cut to make it clean... , and for disinfectant.. so it wont just burst into flame...

[clocker]

Al, I&#39;m not sure what you hope to gain by running straight alchohol in your system.

I think that the fear of bacteria/mold etc. stems from the aquarium pump origins of aftermarket systems. This is never an issue in an automotive cooling systems.

If I were you ( and when my setup is done I intend to do this, btw) I would look into WaterWetter and BG radiator treatment. Both products have surfactants and other additives which increase the water&#39;s ability to transfer heat to the radiator.

I would also add some method of throttling back or controlling the GPH. If water circulates too quickly it is in and out of the radiator before it has really shed it&#39;s thermal load. Faster is not always better in a system like this.

Do you really have fans that only produce 5db? What brand are they, I&#39;d love to get some. Most fans make more noise than that while still in the factory packaging.

[_John_Lennon_]

Originally posted by clocker@2 November 2003 - 19:01
Do you really have fans that only produce 5db? What brand are they, I&#39;d love to get some. Most fans make more noise than that while still in the factory packaging.
I think he means he reduced it by 5db.......


Also, in my opinion you can do alot better than alcohol, if you want to be &#39;watercooling&#39; seeing as how I know fan setups that can keep CPU temps at that 30C.

Ever though of radiator fluid? I know other people that have used it, but I have to go dig up link, they seemed to be stressing parts of their system that were crucially different *shrugs.

[_John_Lennon_]

Originally posted by Kunal@2 November 2003 - 07:02
off topic, i notice abu is always proved wrong by virtualbody1234 :lol: :lol: :lol:
And how exactly was he proved wrong in the last post? I believe I had already stated that he wasnt....

[SciManAl]

First as this is what you find more relevent :D
The 5 dba fans, i have simply taken some fans have reduced them (the amount of electricity they recieve) to where they are that silent... they are a generic brand... :P but the do the job...
as for the GPH i have a pump that simply pumps it at 32 GPH, also tou have to consider that most "high performance" water cooling systems run at 200 or more gph.. i guess if it doesn&#39;t have time to drop off the heat, then it shouldn&#39;t have the time to pic up that much...

Also i that was my goal of the question i was wanting to find a chemical kinda soup that best get the heat gone... i simply thought that alchohol could work, i guess i could get off my ass and resaerch thast myself.. :rolleyes: ohh well also i think that it is possible for germs etc to grow could be possible, since i think that the chemicals for cars are a little more toxic than water... :D Thanks for the reply

no as for mr john, i would like to point out that i have done this without a peltier set up, that in itself would make the cooling in my set up well below zero.. <_< umm i would however like to stray away from things like oil etc... i am using a small pump so i don&#39;t want to give it any heavy elements... i wonder if one could add metal??? small dust particles of brass mayby?? or silver?? mayby that could absorb more heat and if concentrated enough could act like a moving metal stream that was cooling as other parts were heating... (i know i am crazy :blink: )


by the way if you want to make your fans quiter that are closer to the edge of the case one method is to actually distance them fome the edges... that way the noise vibrations are absorbed... umm ducts, and this duct (http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/cpu-tta-11.html) I use this to distance the fan from the edge of the case... that way it is harder to hear... you could even put sound aborbing pad inside to absorb sound waves... hehehe...

[_John_Lennon_]

Originally posted by SciManAl@2 November 2003 - 21:57
i wonder if one could add metal??? small dust particles of brass mayby?? or silver?? mayby that could absorb more heat and if concentrated enough could act like a moving metal stream that was cooling as other parts were heating... (i know i am crazy :blink: )


sound aborbing pad inside to absorb sound waves... hehehe...
-I wouldnt suggest putting anything like that in your water cooling stream, from my understand they end up cloggin up in places, builing up on the CPU Block and preventing heat transfer, among other things.


-In relation to the asorbing pads, I know Newegg has some, but from the customer replies, they smell, ( :blink: ), and raise heat inside the case, on typical fan cooled cases I assume, because they trap heat.

[clocker]

SciMan, I don&#39;t understand your logic. If you pump the water so quickly that it doesn&#39;t have time to absorb/dissipate heat, then what&#39;s the point?
I was simply suggesting that playing around with the coolant velocity might reap increased rewards.
I just bought two of those Thermaltake fan ducts today. They look very interesting. The first one is going to be used to cool my video card. Maybe tomorrow I&#39;ll get it set up...

Edit: As far as "radiator fluid" goes ( and I assume that you are refering to antifreeze) you don&#39;t need it. Unless you live in an igloo you will never encounter the temperature extremes that antifreeze is meant to deal with. Use Water Wetter (http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/watrwet.htm) it is great stuff. Any automotive race shop should have it- it&#39;s required in many organizations. I&#39;ve used it for 15 years, it really does do what they claim.

[_John_Lennon_]

Originally posted by clocker@3 November 2003 - 00:27
SciMan, I don&#39;t understand your logic. If you pump the water so quickly that it doesn&#39;t have time to absorb/dissipate heat, then what&#39;s the point?
I was simply suggesting that playing around with the coolant velocity might reap increased rewards.
I just bought two of those Thermaltake fan ducts today. They look very interesting. The first one is going to be used to cool my video card. Maybe tomorrow I&#39;ll get it set up...

Edit: As far as "radiator fluid" goes ( and I assume that you are refering to antifreeze) you don&#39;t need it. Unless you live in an igloo you will never encounter the temperature extremes that antifreeze is meant to deal with. Use Water Wetter (http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/watrwet.htm) it is great stuff. Any automotive race shop should have it- it&#39;s required in many organizations. I&#39;ve used it for 15 years, it really does do what they claim.
I was referring to more of a mix of anti freeze, Its rather illogical to use 100% anti freeze.

[scruge]

Sometimes I think the most obvious solutions are the best. If you want a system that runs cool, quite and is cost effective then you should revisit the basics.
1. What produces noise? High rpm fans. So slow them down, either by replacing them with 24vdc or running them on 5vdc.
2. What produces Heat build up? No place to go. Poor ventilation is the biggest problem with cases today. I&#39;ve seen cases with six fans and all were sucking through a single slot no bigger than my little finger.
The flow of air in a computer case should be from bottom front to top rear.
The size of the inlets and outlets should be a minimum 70% of the area of the fan/s. ex. 80mm fans should have inlet/outlet size of approx 5.5 sq inches or 3500sq.mm. per fan.
If the fan guard perforations in your case don&#39;t meet this requirement then get tin snips and cut the shit out and replace with a good wire fan guard for a &#036;1. Another sore spot with me are those idiot case manufactures that perforate with a 1.5mm hole on 5mm centers, this amounts to about 300sq mm, far short of the 3500 you need. Keep in mind, a starved fan will run hot and louder and do nothing to cool your system. For low noise I recommend a single 120mm 24vdc running on 12vdc for front bottom.
Now for the some basic mods to the power supply. First check your power supplies exhaust grill to see if it meets the 70% rule. If not cut the grill out an replace with wire guard. Next if your supply has slots punched in it for ventilation then take needle nose pliers and twist the slots 90 degrees. This alone will increase air flow by over 50%. If your supply doesn&#39;t have venting on the large flat (5x6) side, in most instances the side facing the mb. Then take the ps apart and cut a 2.5" hole in the bottom and install a 80mm fan guard for protection.
If you have a case that has a space above the ps of more than an inch or 2 then see if you can&#39;t cut an exhaust port out the back side of the case to allow hot air to escape. You can usually find light weight expanded sheet metal at your local electronic surplus store or you can use a couple of 50mm fan guards to cover the slot.
One other tip, use your IDE cables or cut file folders to direct air flow into dead areas, like the top front.
You may not want to perform such task so in those cases I recommend an Antec sx635 or 835 case on sale for &#036;70 or less. I realize there are others as well.
I usually buy the &#036;15 to &#036;20 cases that are made of 24-28ga steel, you can cut them like paper, but they do stiffen up once assembled and they are light weight.

For those of you with the juke box cases, these mods aren&#39;t pretty. But they do work for those like myself who don&#39;t feel a need to decorate.
One important reminder, after doing all this don&#39;t go and stick your computer in a cabinet like so many of the computer desk have. Make sure you place it where the hot air being exhausted can escape and not be picked up by the front inlet.

I&#39;m running a xp 2600 with a volcano 5, yes that&#39;s right a FIVE that dates back to a 1.4ghz athlon. I bought 10 of them for &#036;3 a piece and I&#39;m still using them. My cpu runs at 49degrees and i&#39;m seeing a 8 degree rise above ambient on the case exhaust. The hottest spot on the surface of my case is 5 degrees above ambient. All of this is being done with 2 120mm fans running at half voltage, I used one of the 120mm fans to replace the 80mm in power supply.

Noise, I can&#39;t hear it.
Note: The air flow is so good that it keeps my Geforce 2 pro running even though its fan crapped out over a year ago.

This wasn&#39;t meant to steer the dialog in the wrong direction. Just a reminder that there are more fundamental things that can help keep things cool.

[_John_Lennon_]

Scruge, you reminded me of another thing I have heard of that adds to the sound,

And thats the regular grills that are placed, on say the back of the cases usually. Like you said scruge, they are usually mostly blocked up, but another thing that raises the noise level is that nearly 3k Fan blowing all the air past it, thus creating more noise.

Sure, it doesnt seem like it could make any difference, but I just entirely cut out the back area where I mounted my rear case fan, and although its 2800RPM, I cant hear it right now.

[clocker]

It&#39;s always good to be reminded of the basics.