Is invite trading really that bad? [Archive]

1000possibleclaws

07-23-2010, 06:30 AM

Quoted from backie's blog (but not written by backie afaik)
Felt this needed to by copy pasta'd onto FST, because there wasn't enough intelligent discussion going on at the source.

"
Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana. This is the
situation with trading tracker invites today. Most people have long forgotten the original reason trading was forbidden, which was in fact to protect the tracker from security threats. But trading is one of the more secure ways to let someone into a tracker, because both the invites being given need to be on the same “level”. With giving away invites, this is not the case. All you need to do to get into a higher level tracker is give away five or 6 invites to FTS or some other shitty tracker and BOOM; you have access to SCC, GFT and more. Giving away invites is based on the exact same principal as trading, except that is much easier to move up to more elite trackers. When you trade invites, there is also a certain level of trust involved. You don’t go around trading invites with a complete stranger for fear of being jipped. You usually know the person you are trading invites with, whether it be in real life or on a forum. With giving away invites, you give the invite to
whoever has the most “reps”. But the thing is these reps could have been given because the person gave away a bitshock invite. You just don’t know. I think the bittorrent world needs to ask itself, “Is trading really that bad?”.

"

__________________________________________________

Starting of TSOL's opinion:

I can sort of relate with some of the concepts in this person's thoughts, but I do believe he is glorifying and oversimplifying trading. I've traded/scammed just for kicks wayyy back before really knowing anything about this scene (Mudd revoked my invite privs at A-L once upon a time, but let me stay on board, good man :P) and from what I understand there isn't really much trust among traders. Some are decent folk with lives, some have interesting persona's, some want buffered accounts because their pipes are shite, but for the most part they are just moronic people caught up in chasing illusions. In other words, they are the same kind of people who today are 'anti-trade' invite givers.

I have about as much faith in those past traders as I do in today's non-traders; the traders who were interesting and personable to today's non-trader equivalents; sketchy traders to today's anonymous anti-traders, or users who throw invites around like spare change. As far as tracker security, I wouldn't let my web of trust stretch further than people I know first-hand. I would not put complete trust in invitees, and therefore no tracker is truly secure in my eyes. Chances are your site will go down when some shitty ex-staff member decides to stab you in the back for personal differences, or when your database will fuck itself over the one time you were too lazy to make backups. Aka your site will die well before the feds decide to come in and seize your servers.

Despite all this, I feel trading has fallen apart so much since back in '07 when it was a norm, at least from what I have been witnessing here on FST, that it is not realistic to ever expect any sort of resurgence in trading. This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics. In my opinion invite giveaways aren't much of an improvement from past trading norms, but they are not a step backwards either as the original quote seems to allude. Trader's have successfully become a scapegoat for private tracker woes, for better or for worse.

afterthought: Would be nice to get a couple tracker staffer opinions in here, especially those that have been around for some good amount of time. I lack that sort of perspective, and my vantage point is probably missing elements theirs would have had.

Quarterquack

07-23-2010, 10:48 AM

This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics.

False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.

Trading is bad because most of the time it's done for the wrong reasons, and will probably end with the wrong people (people banned twice or thrice before) getting back on the tracker and ruining the experience for a different torrenter, yet again. Fact is, according to all the reading I've done, and all I've had to hear from different people, that seems to be the most dominant logical reasoning; people consider trading acceptable but the people associated with it usually have their hands in even more dirt, which can never be a good thing (invite selling/cheating etc.). That's what I reason with, instead of deluded illusions of helping an undercover FBI agent get on my favorite tracker on the other side of the internet pipes.

That's just my opinion, though, and I don't have the "experience" you might be looking for.

ca_aok

07-23-2010, 12:33 PM

The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.

The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.

Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.

And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.

Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.

Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.

If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.

False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.
Read the Rules on any site (you did agree to do so before joining didn't you?), and you'll see the problem. It's clearly wrong. You might start out oblivious, but when the first ban rolls around, you'd figure it out pretty quick.

07-23-2010, 03:02 PM

Trading brings more negativity to the system than the small positive sides it has.Even if positive sides are embraced,it opens a series of loopholes for exploitation.The system is better without it.

Tv Controls you

07-23-2010, 03:24 PM

The relationship between rule abiding members of trackers and conformist monkeys is truly insulting...
And the quoted post was obviously written by a deranged invite trader, that most likely just got banned off a high level tracker he traded for.

There were already many valid points given here, so I'm not going to rehash them all back for you again.
But I think you would have to agree... That to maintain a level of quality on trackers that their must be rules put in place.
These rules aren't made to bash you down and take power over anyone (shame on any site that does), they are made to craft a clean and efficient community...

If I truly felt suppressed by any of these rules or ideals of these trackers, I would be the first to speak out about them.. As I have in the past on multiple occasions.

1000possibleclaws

07-23-2010, 05:10 PM

Read the Rules on any site (you did agree to do so before joining didn't you?), and you'll see the problem. It's clearly wrong. You might start out oblivious, but when the first ban rolls around, you'd figure it out pretty quick.

One of the most common rules:

"You must have legal rights to the file you are downloading."

Other than that bs rules part at the end your post makes a good deal of sense. While trackers network to some extent, I'd still think users would behave better if all their accounts had the same nick attached to them. Trading accounts just makes them more disposable which can't be great. Oink was the best tracker of its time, despite allowing trading. TTi has always been on par with any other 0day site that has not allowed trading. Would these sites have been even better had they disallowed trading? There is for sure a negative impact of trading, but judging from Oink I am somewhat doubtful about how many people actually degrade into collectors and scumbags, or whether that number is even relevant. If trading has infact died off everywhere and not just here, I wonder what positive effects it would have had over the past few years. I guess its doubtful anywhere could pinpoint anything with all the other factors involved.

ca_aok

07-23-2010, 05:53 PM

One of the most common rules:

"You must have legal rights to the file you are downloading."
This is a common argument from rulebreakers, and a silly one at that. It's more of a disclaimer than a rule, and everyone is aware that it's only put there for the fimsy pretense in case of legal action against the site. It's sort of like drug users to experiment with Research Chemicals (aka Designer Drugs). These are legal drugs made by slightly altering current illegal drugs in order to bend the rules. You can buy them from large online vendors and in the case of incense (the JWH family usually) you can even buy them in smoke shops. However, they all have the disclaimer "Not sold for human consumption", because as soon as something is sold for human consumption the rules become insanely strict.

No one is buying these chemicals to "study their effects", they're buying them because they're legal chemicals that get you high, despite being "Not for human consumption". It's just a flimsy pretense to protect the vendors.

Regarding OiNK, etc. The BT landscape was different then compared to what it is now. It's not really fair to say their success was helped or hindered by trading, especially since they're no longer around. What.cd has far surpassed OiNK in everything but the size of its memberbase, and it takes a hard line against the undesirables.

tippertime

07-23-2010, 08:06 PM

I think the reason that people new to the torrent game think trading is the norm and is ok can pretty much can be attributed to what you have been told your whole life, there is no such thing as a free lunch...but I guess in the case of torrents the best things in life are free...until they hound you to donate and threaten to shut the place down :-P

Tv Controls you

07-23-2010, 08:42 PM

Trading will never die down completley.... Just type in your favorite tracker.... and then type "invite" afterward.

What do you get?

1-2 people trying to get an invite legitimately (with a bad request usually), and then 6 results of people trading invites. And succeeding.
The 2 legit requests are usually on yahoo answers, which you find is worthless, and the 6 are on trading/selling websites....
This is how I originally got myself tied up with Torrent invites, as it was the first dedicated torrent forum I found.

The problem is private trackers that only allow people to join via invites leave people searching for a way to get in.
Their is no guidance on how to get an invite when you type in your dream tracker, only a username and password box....

TraLaLa

07-23-2010, 08:46 PM

Again this drama.

Cabalo

07-23-2010, 09:11 PM

End with this invite bullshit! Or close the trackers!
This way there won't be any more traders.

DonkeyPacker

07-23-2010, 09:29 PM

I don't have any problem with trading. It's just a matter of opinion. The reason I don't trade is because I want to follow the rules of the trackers that I like. I don't think transgressing upon those rules would make me a bad person; I just know that it would get me disabled for breach of the rules that I accept when I join such a tracker. Trading is a bit dishonest, though. If you join a tracker, you basically accept the rules of said tracker. If you do not wish to accept them, you leave the tracker. If you do accept them, and then you trade, I think that would speak to your character. That has nothing to do with the concept of trading; rather, with the rules of a website in general.

sez

07-24-2010, 12:06 AM

The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.

The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8202/vlcsnap2010072322h35m17.png

Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.

And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.

Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.

Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.

If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.
Now here's somebody who takes his torrenting a little bit too seriously,you provide so much to shit on that I don't even know where to start.When preparing a list of scum in BT though,it's strongly advised you start with p2pg and some of the people who run these closed BT/possibly kiddie porn swapping forums.
I think you need to rethink how you approach BT,try looking at it the way you do the spam folder in your email account.

100% of torrent sites that have closed thus far aren't there because of idiot staffers not traders.Perhaps you should clarify that 'traders are banned not because they trade but because they are scum' part otherwise you need to produce this scummeter that you are using so we all can see it.

stoi

07-24-2010, 01:51 AM

@sez so just because you cant see whats in there, they possibly do kiddie porn? all i can say is of course they bloody dont.

The trading argument will go on forever, and there will be no winner, but you mentioned Oink allowed it, and they got on fine, hmm he got arrested and the site took down, now we will never know if the reason he got taken down was because of a trader or not, but it didnt exactly do the site any favours.

The way i see it, the whole BT hierarchy is fucked up.

Get a seedbox/Cheat = get a higher class, get invites/into the invite forums of the tracker, trade invites on places like FST, who most of the time you have no idea who they are, even if they have 100rep 500 posts and show you speedtests, links to tracker profiles (they could have cheated their ratio as well).

Also giving them only to people you know is bollocks as well, most peoples friends, wont torrent, those that do may just be used to public trackers, you can teach them everything in the book, but if they just dont want to do it, then they wont do it.

Which user is more deserving of an invite, and which user will probably get one.

A: Ul:400 gig DL 400gig helpful in comments/forums/IRC
B: UL 1TB DL 20gig Never seen in comments/forums/IRC

Without user A there is noone for user B to upload to.

Traders usually are collectors, you dont "need" to get into any tracker, but if the chance comes along, then take it, you dont "need" to trade to get into anywhere, you dont need to arse lick either, just take part in the communities you are a member off (which will make those communites even better) and the offers will come.

This is just my take on it, I am not one of these and I have never heard any staffer say this, but its about competition, how many private trackers are there 1000`s, but lets take the ones in the WTO, guessing off the top of my head 100 in there. now level 1-4 have 100,000+ members, lvl 10 have 2000 ish members, how many of the lvl 8-10 members, are in a few 1-4 trackers, i would say 99% of them, so we are all fighting for their "custom", now whether that is Tracker activity, community activity, Donations or whatever, its still competition, so its more, if you go there, you are going to leave us, so we are going to loose a good member, even though we do everything tracker lvl 8-10 does (and maybe even do it better). Or, why were we not good enough for you, why didnt you like is etc etc etc.

as for the traders, most start out with the curiosity of a cat, hmm TL wonder what thats like, oh great i can trade my BCG invite for it, next its, oh, lvl6 tracker, i can trade my TL invite for it, just because i want to see what its got, then lvl 6 invite to get a lvl 7 etc etc, and then like anything, it gets addictive, its like pokemon "gotta have them all" and usually at any cost.

My take is, as long as trackers are closed, and they have invites that are based on ratio (which is a lot easier now than it was 5 years ago, just with the advent of seedboxes, and not 32KBs upload for most), then you will get traders, and even if they give invites to everyone, they will still get traders, if you make it harder/more involved to get invites (like IRC participation, not just idling, forum posting but not just in the "what music are you listening to"/"the girl next door thread") then maybe you will get members that actually care something for the tracker, so have no need to trade.

I dont really care about invite traders, but i do think "why, are we not good enough or something?" when i see our referrals getting traded, I have ran a tracker for 7 years now, and have put a lot into it, so when someone decides to trade to get into somewhere else, I am going to think "why". OK its just the net, and the net is full of strange people, but it still gets to me sometimes, other times its just, fuck you then lol

I am not sure if i answered the OPs question there, or just went off on one, but its 3am and thats all you are getting off me tonight (and no i am not drunk lol)

Funkin'

07-24-2010, 02:30 AM

I'm not reading all of that since I'm sure it says nothing that hasn't been said here a ton of times already. But my opinion, no...of course not all invite trading is bad. Stoi has given a great example in the past of invite trading that doesn't harm anything.

bigdaddydude

07-24-2010, 03:58 AM

I believe stoi has given a great example of the different type of users. I never traded before but I look at it this way. Trading will get you burned in the end. It's just not worth it. You should have to earn your way into a tracker that you want by helping out others with their questions, obeying the rules, respect the staff, being active on forums, hanging out on irc and actually downloading/uploading torrents while maintaining a good ratio on all of them. That's just my $0.02.

amirji

07-24-2010, 04:39 AM

yesno, simply put. there are two sides to everything, like your butt, it has two cheeks, when you get tired of sitting on the right one you switch to the left one. Or if your butt get's tired in general you stand. It will never end.

Let's discuss undercover bittorrent agents, and exposing them, they need to die. It's a bunch of bullshit when you say you don't have to lick ass to get known, it's quite the opposite. Mod's do it all the time to see how much more irritated they can get their e-penis, and regular users do it to become mods because they see by example and think they are going to get a bigger e-penis. haha.

So my 2 cents is I feel that you should do it, try it for fun, trade a demonoid invite. I did it just to see what responses I would get and who was responding (hello, isn't that the same shit you mod's do to ban people, oh yeah, but you get new user names), yes I did get banned from two trackers, only because a small punk was kissing ass, but it's ok, I have moved on, hell, I may even be back with those trackers, but I leave that for that punk to figure out and my signature to love always. :-)~

@bigdaddydude - how the f**k do you even have the patience to sit in front of a computer? Shouldn't you be at the gym lifting weights, getting pumped up, watching your muscles grow? LOL.

n00bz0r

07-24-2010, 04:40 AM

Again this drama.

^^ Best post so fa.
Ya guys are simply wasting time arguing about something which won't lead to anything conclusive. Traders will keep trading. Anti traders and others will keep doing whatever suits their immediate interests. Nothing is going to change that. Period.

stoi

07-24-2010, 04:46 AM

well i am probably one of those staff that hates anti traders more than traders (or at least with equal measure lol) I cant stand ass kissing, and you can see it a mile off, we are not all gullable you know, we have got minds of our own, and can see a prospective good staffer without them falling over backwards to help (with finding traders etc).

The bottom line is though, the rules of the tracker say no trading, and you trade, and they catch you, then you are going to get burnt, the trick is not to get caught lol

bigdaddydude

07-24-2010, 05:00 AM

@bigdaddydude - how the f**k do you even have the patience to sit in front of a computer? Shouldn't you be at the gym lifting weights, getting pumped up, watching your muscles grow? LOL.

I see you like my avatar picture. Lol

ca_aok

07-24-2010, 05:17 AM

Now here's somebody who takes his torrenting a little bit too seriously,you provide so much to shit on that I don't even know where to start.When preparing a list of scum in BT though,it's strongly advised you start with p2pg and some of the people who run these closed BT/possibly kiddie porn swapping forums.
I think you need to rethink how you approach BT,try looking at it the way you do the spam folder in your email account.

100% of torrent sites that have closed thus far aren't there because of idiot staffers not traders.Perhaps you should clarify that 'traders are banned not because they trade but because they are scum' part otherwise you need to produce this scummeter that you are using so we all can see it.
Come back and patronize me some more later, at least my post had an argument better than "LOL KIDDIE PORN SWAP". And I think BREIN might have something to say about the second bit.

Let's discuss undercover bittorrent agents, and exposing them, they need to die. It's a bunch of bullshit when you say you don't have to lick ass to get known, it's quite the opposite. Mod's do it all the time to see how much more irritated they can get their e-penis, and regular users do it to become mods because they see by example and think they are going to get a bigger e-penis. haha.
Funny, people manage to follow the board rules here without it being considered "kissing ass". As I already said, the people concerned with kissing ass are the same people still hung up on the stupid WTAW thing. And from what I've seen, the asskissing generally has the opposite of the intended effect. I certainly never feel the urge to invite some grovelling sycophant to some "1337 tracker".

Then again, traders tend to view things as typing more than a handful of words as "too much work", so it's not surprising that those who post on forums (other than trade offers) and use IRC are seen as kissasses. By the way dude, you're a total badass for trading that demonoid invite. I kinda want to be you.

bumrocks

07-25-2010, 07:20 PM

Yes, this subject is like beating a dead horse...But here I go.

There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it. I think it is a game for them. The game goes both ways since I was one of those that enjoyed outsmarting them at their game. But I tired of it. Maybe because, as it has been mentioned, it will never go away and I have better things to do.

If you have no personable skills, are lazy, or any number of other reason I can somewhat understand why you might trade to get somewhere that you really want to be at and use. In theory, if you were one of these people I can't see why you would ever need to make more than 10, or so, trades ever. Unfortunately, it seems many get addicted to trading or the power trip of besting a site. Whatever reason it is, the ones that never stop are the problem people cause they really could give two shits about sites.

My oxymoron for the day...

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

1000possibleclaws

07-26-2010, 09:44 AM

There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it.

Yeah, I don't think anyone can justify that kind of trader.

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

What are the good kind of traders in your eyes? I did not know you supported certain kinds of trades. :O

BABBY

07-26-2010, 10:47 AM

it may be considered spam

but i am very happy with my new connection

http://www.speedtest.net/result/892200631.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

just wanted to share my happiness with my some friends here

such an unlimited connection cost 1000 $ per month here in India, but this is my office net connection, which is great.

I know some traders who trade to earn their school fees and they hack things and sell it for earing their livelihood i call them good traders, but they are good at heart also and help people who cannot afford some things. i consider them to be good people.

this world is very big, with lot of diversity

bumrocks very well said, hats off to u, just hearing name of trader or cheater we should not over react, its better we know the situation and the person first, moreover this whole world runs on trade one way or another, and generally ever normal person cheats somewhere in his real life let it be exams or pickpocketing or using pirated things or anything else, why overreact at such things, let people decide what is good for them and what not.

just dont be g ready and dont be selfish, moreover help people who are really in need of.

dont waste time in stating what is right and wrong for others, we should decide what is right and wrong for us and our friends and our loved once.

just dont jump to conclusion without being too sure of things, their are every chances of ourself to be wrong under these conditions.

IdolEyes787

07-26-2010, 01:14 PM

just dont jump to conclusion without being too sure of things, their are every chances of ourself to be wrong under these conditions.

So what you are basically saying is that we should just ignore the whole purpose of the internet?

Zevaka

07-26-2010, 06:34 PM

internet has no logic or purpose :) live with it :)

bumrocks

07-26-2010, 09:09 PM

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

What are the good kind of traders in your eyes? I did not know you supported certain kinds of trades. :O

Even though it goes against everything most trackers set rules about, I would rather someone trade and use the site and be active (because they actually wanted to be a member) unlike the person before them that simply had the account to trade with. I would have to say this would qualify as a good trade, at least on one side. The reality is that not everyone has the communication, personal skills, or smarts to make friends and get invited to some sites.

The other side of reality is, that if staff find out that you traded, regardless of your activity, you are gonna get banned. Of course there are sites that make exceptions (usually cause you have given them money) but it is for the most part rare.

haseeb221093

07-28-2010, 09:28 AM

Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana.

hey nice thoughts.....but trading is not good...because sharing is caring......

IdolEyes787

07-28-2010, 12:09 PM

internet has no logic or purpose :) live with it :)

Life has no logic or purpose but still holds moments of beauty and wonder .On the other hand the internet is like life if God were to be replaced by his retarded brother .

OlegL

07-30-2010, 03:43 PM

If you want to offer something nice to someone and want to get something nice in return, then there is nothing wrong with trading in this particular example. If two traders are good people and they simply want to enjoy the trackers they want to get into, there is nothing wrong with exchanging invites to those trackers.

Zevaka

07-30-2010, 06:03 PM

so you're talking about nice guys who are too greedy to give invite to another good guy... they need something in return
come on, the only legit (in all means) trade may be between two friends. But then it cannot be even called trade, in my opinion.

Speedo

07-31-2010, 08:55 AM

TraLaLa

07-31-2010, 03:59 PM

Speedo

08-01-2010, 02:42 AM

Yeah, trading is bad. What else is a tracker supposed to say? Everyone know trading is going on and we all give out invites to strangers on the internet, and it's no hiding that. But a tracker can't afford to have that policy. Ofcourse new blood is better than a incestious tracker, but they have to be smart about how they let in new people and get rid of others. So I guess the rules are there to be broken.

I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.

There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.

Bullshit, what you basically are saying is that trackers needs traders.They wont do much shit there,eventually fake a great ratio to get invites and continue trading to get more and more high level trackers.

Where the hell do I say that? I don't think thats true but it happens like anything illegal does. What I'm saying is that trackers have a flow of members going in and out of the tracker and some of that comes from trading. What does tracker prefer do you think? Traders or open invites? Trading is not good at all but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at all, and can't be considered a good thing for people that want to keep their trackers safe.

bijoy

08-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

Quarterquack

08-02-2010, 01:46 PM

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

You can use that exact same logic to not even giveaway invites... :dry:

anon

08-02-2010, 06:53 PM

You can use that exact same logic to not even giveaway invites... :dry:

Very true, not to mention many trackers forbid public giveaways, which makes them as disallowed as trading.

Quarterquack

08-02-2010, 07:22 PM

many trackers forbid public giveaways, which makes them as disallowed as trading.

And yet, only one tracker's staff approached me about a public giveaway I had; promised me I will never have invite privileges again, and then proceeded to give me two invites about a week ago (I can only assume that it's because both my previous invitees are in great standing status wise).

All I'm trying to say is I'm on Speedo's side in this particular instance. Trackers need fresh blood, and if you're going to restrict people to inviting just their very exclusive group of friends, then all you'll end up with is Tard1 inviting Tard2 and Tard3 to 600 different trackers (not that that already doesn't happen, but on the flip side, there is member variety on trackers).

EDIT: Not to mention that I have only one real life friend interested in torrenting (two, soon enough, but the second I met through torrenting) and I'm not about to impose my invites on him just so I can say I did him/the tracker a favor. He's content with TL, and I assume with very few exceptions, most people don't have real life friends that go around saying "FTN is my dream tracker let's hunt it down."

Speedo

08-04-2010, 09:11 PM

You need to get over the idea that people does anything illegal in the open, thats not how trading works.

Trading is that you give someone an invite to a site, but then the person that got in there want to say thanks and then offer you an invite to a site he knows. And it is all in the pm's. The public forums know nothing.

So why doesn't I have Bitme with this theory? Because they are all a bunch of douchebags.

Presto

08-21-2010, 05:15 PM

Invite trading is OK as long as you don't get caught and as long as you don't trade with assholes. The latter seems to be the main problem.

Night0wl

08-22-2010, 03:32 AM

I have thought about this thread for a while. And honestly, when I came here, I came here to trade. Not because I have no social skills or because I don't care about the sites I'm on, but because to me it seemed, there was no other option. Mind you this was back in 2007. Somehow by the posts I made here, I was liked by some people, who didn't trade. I didn't get my invite to where I wanted (that came later almost by accident) but I got to know lots of great people in filesharing. Since then it turned to shit, but it used to be great and relaxed. Mostly because of narrow minded staff on sites I'm sad to say.

Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with good or bad. except the good get put in the same group as the bad.

We have the people who trade the invites/accounts with just anyone = Yes IMO they are bad, because they invite just anyone, whether the already banned cheater, people who have no place there, even the ones who collect IPs etc.
We have the people who sell their invites, which IMO is just as low as it gets :(
We have the ones with zero social skills, or time, who use the WIAW to slowly get up the ladder and get into the sites the want. IMO also bad, because usually they don't care who they invite/give accounts to
We have the ones who just trade for the sake of trading, yeah they are here too. I spoke to one, whos mission was to him and his friend have three accounts on every tracker i.e. two people but still wanted three accounts
Now it gets grey
We have the ones with no too good social skills, who e.g. are on a music site and have invites. They really love the site, but still they would love some nice movie site as well.
We have the ones, like me, who know exactly what they want. And they give up with no other option than a trade (I never traded in my life, but if things turned out different, who knows)
We have the online friends/acquaintances who invite each other to their "home"
We have closed invite only :lol: invite forums, where the members support each other... well here I don't know

Bumrocks said it pretty well. We have the good traders, who exchange their sites with other likeminded people i.e. a movie site invite for a music siteinvite. Both will be used.

But on the other hand tracker staff don't have a choice with all the assholes out there.

IdolEyes787

08-22-2010, 01:17 PM

The problem with the current situation is that getting into most of the "better" trackers is totally dependent on who you know , as abundantly evidenced by all the cloned idiots on most of these sites , and not what you know or how much you care about actually being a member there.
If more sites were to go the way on open applications maybe it would help , at least a little , in solving some of the problems.
Of course then other than clearly definable niche trackers ,applications would probably just come down to proving that you have such and such uploaded on other sites:dabs: so I guess that wouldn't really be any better would it?

Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 02:13 PM

The problem with the current situation is that getting into most of the "better" trackers is totally dependent on who you know , as abundantly evidenced by all the cloned idiots on most of these sites , and not what you know or how much you care about actually being a member there.
If more sites were to go the way on open applications maybe it would help , at least a little , in solving some of the problems.
Of course then other than clearly definable niche trackers ,applications would probably just come down to proving that you have such and such uploaded on other sites:dabs: so I guess that wouldn't really be any better would it?
If it wasn't for the traders and sellers, most sites wouldn't feel the need to try and limit invites as they do. And of course, because of the limited invites, traders and sellers become more prevalent. Positive feedback loops ftl I suppose.

Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:
Sounds like it's right out of Stalin's mouth, comrade.

cinephilia

08-22-2010, 02:23 PM

IdolEyes787

08-22-2010, 02:41 PM

If it wasn't for the traders and sellers, most sites wouldn't feel the need to try and limit invites as they do. And of course, because of the limited invites, traders and sellers become more prevalent. Positive feedback loops ftl I suppose.

OK you know that I'm basically against trading purely from the standpoint that one should leave up to their word but seriously forgive my ignorance and explain to me again, multiple accounts aside, exactly how a traded account is necessarily any more of a liability to a tracker than a "normal" one?
Or is it all about the multiple accounts and the selling or is it the fact that "bad" members ( are there other ways to be bad besides hit and running:unsure: )that have abused their privileges have ( by taking someone else's account but then it's not about invites:unsure: ) an easy way to gain access again?

Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:
Sounds like it's right out of Stalin's mouth, comrade.

My Dad was big in the NDP .True story.:mellow:

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 04:43 PM

OK you know that I'm basically against trading purely from the standpoint that one should leave up to their word but seriously forgive my ignorance and explain to me again, multiple accounts aside, exactly how a traded account is necessarily any more of a liability to a tracker than a "normal" one?
Or is it all about the multiple accounts and the selling or is it the fact that "bad" members ( are there other ways to be bad besides hit and running:unsure: )that have abused their privileges have ( by taking someone else's account but then it's not about invites:unsure: ) an easy way to gain access again?
See my reply on page 1. But as you've no doubt noticed I have a strong moral viewpoint on these sorts of things and an innate distaste for dishonesty. If some kid with a keyboard (i.e. me) can join all these sites without any trouble (with one or two exceptions), anyone else can do so as well without resorting to this bullshit.

My Dad was big in the NDP .True story.:mellow:
So he's probably been in close proximity to Harper at some point? I dunno if I'd be able to resist giving him a square kick to the nuts if it was me.

yes, that's called a vicious circle. the question is who do you expect to put an end to this tendency ? ...traders ? http://filesharingtalk.../vb3/images/smilies/unsure.gif
Making invites more readily accessible only stops one type of trader, the type that actually wants to become a member and use the site. It won't do shit to prevent the rejoins from the banned, invite sellers, those that trade for sport, etc.

08-22-2010, 06:59 PM

If some kid with a keyboard (i.e. me) with lots of time on hands and lots of effort in socializing can join all these sites without any trouble (with one or two exceptions), anyone else can do so as well without resorting to this bullshit.
Corrected.

edit:

I have a strong moral viewpoint on these sorts of things
You have no moral problems pirating stuff(?) but you have problems when people trade/cheat the system built around piracy.

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 07:15 PM

The thing is, I actually didn't put in effort at all. I could count on one hand the number of sites I've actually needed to "socialize" for. The truth is, pretty much everything you need can be found by hitting power user at a big tracker with an invite forum. Sites that people waste time trading for here could be obtained by putting in the effort to hit PU at a site like What. Most of my so called "rare" sites were given to me without asking and in some cases (FTN), barely knowing the person at all.

I've asked for three sites in my time with bittorrent: What.cd (my first tracker other than Demonoid), HDBits and E. Most of my other trackers were from unlimited invite offers, open signups, or occasionally a good friend.

The people who "socialize" for invites are easy to spot and don't necessarily succeed. Participate in a community because you want to, not because you're working an angle.

08-22-2010, 07:20 PM

Most of my so called "rare" sites were given to me without asking and in some cases (FTN), barely knowing the person at all.

Yea,those are the side effects of socializing if you dint know.

IdolEyes787

08-22-2010, 07:25 PM

Yea,those are the side effects of socializing if you dint know.

Lucky him .Usually all I get from it is a hangover and the occasional STD.:(

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 07:28 PM

I have no moral problems pirating things. I haven't actually deprived anyone of anything except an imaginary sale. And oddly enough, I often discover something via piracy that actually encourages me to go out and buy the physical product. I had at last count ~350 CDs and 60 LPs, which is a hell of a lot more than most people I know who pirate less than I do. I pay for cable, but I'd rather not rely on syndication to dictate whether I can rewatch an episode or movie. I'd feel much worse taking a candy bar from the convenience store down the street.

Yea,those are the side effects of socializing if you dint know.
Maybe from a cynical viewpoint. I don't suck up to people for invites, which is what passes for socializing in the torrenting world these days.

Lucky him .Usually all I get from it is a hangover and the occasional STD.http://filesharingtalk.../vb3/images/smilies/sad.gif
1) Gatorade
2) Condoms

IdolEyes787

08-22-2010, 07:33 PM

Lucky him .Usually all I get from it is a hangover and the occasional STD.http://filesharingtalk.../vb3/images/smilies/sad.gif
1) Gatorade
2) Condoms

Please don't try to socialize with me as it will get you nowhere.:angry:

08-22-2010, 07:43 PM

I have no moral problems pirating things.
So what is your moral stance on pirating?

I haven't actually deprived anyone of anything except an imaginary sale. And oddly enough, I often discover something via piracy that actually encourages me to go out and buy the physical product. I had at last count ~350 CDs and 60 LPs, which is a hell of a lot more than most people I know who pirate less than I do.I pay for cable, but I'd rather not rely on syndication to dictate whether I can rewatch an episode or movie. I'd feel much worse taking a candy bar from the convenience store down the street.
Irrelevant stuff.Stealing is stealing even if you own Disney for yourself.

Maybe from a cynical viewpoint. I don't suck up to people for invites, which is what passes for socializing in the torrenting world these days.
I dint say you are socializing for invites but I said you got invited because you socialized.Oh and how was it in the old days of torrenting?

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 07:57 PM

Irrelevant stuff.Stealing is stealing even if you own Disney for yourself.Only irrelevant to those who have made up their minds on the matter already. You have your views, I have mine, neither of us will sway each other. You'll note that people aren't charged with theft, they're charged with copyright infringement.

I dint say you are socializing for invites but I said you got invited because you socialized.Oh and how was it in the old days of torrenting?As I said, not necessary for pretty much any site. The truth of the matter is, traders are too lazy to write anything more than a few words, too lazy to fill out an application or take an interview, and too lazy to give anything back to any site they join. Fucking over the people who're risking their asses so that you can download free stuff might be fine for you, that's your call.

If you want to fileshare without having to worry about others, stick to DDL or Usenet.

08-22-2010, 08:10 PM

Only irrelevant to those who have made up their minds on the matter already. You have your views, I have mine, neither of us will sway each other.
Oh no.Dont escape the question please.You feel http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Copyright+infringement is okay but at the same time trading/cheating on a system built upon it is morally wrong.I say your sense of morality is whacked.And how can you even begin to justify downloading songs/movies/games without paying for the work done by the artists/company.Do you think they are slaves who work for you and deserve to be paid only if they excel from normal?

As I said, not necessary for pretty much any site
Made it bold :)

As I said, not necessary for pretty much any site. The truth of the matter is, traders are too lazy to write anything more than a few words, too lazy to fill out an application or take an interview, and too lazy to give anything back to any site they join.
So are collectors any good?

Fucking over the people who're risking their asses so that you can download free stuff might be fine for you, that's your call.
How are traders fucking over people?

ca_aok

08-22-2010, 11:05 PM

Oh no.Dont escape the question please.You feel http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Copyright+infringement is okay but at the same time trading/cheating on a system built upon it is morally wrong.I say your sense of morality is whacked.And how can you even begin to justify downloading songs/movies/games without paying for the work done by the artists/company.Do you think they are slaves who work for you and deserve to be paid only if they excel from normal?
I didn't escape anything, and I'm not depriving anyone of anything. And I think you're the one who could do with some googling of copyright infringement, since you seem to think it's the same thing as theft. It's not even a crime, it's a civil matter where the other person can sue you. And quite frankly, I really don't care what your thoughts are on my sense of morality, as you're clearly lacking one yourself (which of course is fine). If it makes you feel better to call yourself a thief, do so.

As I said, not necessary for pretty much any site
Made it bold :)
Good, you agree.

So are collectors any good?
Nope, but that's completely irrelevant to this thread.

How are traders fucking over people?
Read some of my earlier replies, I'm not here to constantly repeat myself.

Cabalo

08-23-2010, 02:17 AM

Gatorade works?
It's something I've never thought trying. Usually a small and very cold beer solves the problem.

deadalive1

08-23-2010, 02:24 AM

It's because of the electrolyte's in Gatorade Cabalo, works great (especially on hangovers).

ca_aok

08-23-2010, 02:25 AM

The headache is generally because you're dehydrated. And as the water leaves your body (in the obvious way) it filters through your kidneys, filtering out ions as well (mostly sodium and potassium). Really gatorade's the closest thing you'll get to a hangover cure, though it's definitely not some miracle thing that'll clear your symptoms instantly. Those simply don't exist.

The beer in the morning thing only works if you're still at least slightly drunk (in my experience anyway), in which case you're just prolonging the buzz and setting yourself up for the elusive 5pm hangover :P

Cabalo

08-23-2010, 02:33 AM

It's because of the electrolyte's in Gatorade Cabalo, works great (especially on hangovers).

The headache is generally because you're dehydrated. And as the water leaves your body (in the obvious way) it filters through your kidneys, filtering out ions as well (mostly sodium and potassium). Really gatorade's the closest thing you'll get to a hangover cure, though it's definitely not some miracle thing that'll clear your symptoms instantly. Those simply don't exist.

The beer in the morning thing only works if you're still at least slightly drunk (in my experience anyway), in which case you're just prolonging the buzz and setting yourself up for the elusive 5pm hangover :P
Now that's something I had never considered before. Thanks guys! Soon enough I will have the chance to test that.

48135

ca_aok

08-23-2010, 02:49 AM

It helps if you drink some before passing out too. I generally chug a litre or so before doing so.

08-23-2010, 03:41 PM

And I think you're the one who could do with some googling of copyright infringement, since you seem to think it's the same thing as theft.
And the problem with you is that you think you arent stealing,how naive.The famous argument "Copying files is not theft" is horseshit really and everyone knows it as well.People are comparing two different systems on the same level.In real world copying may not be a big deal because there is no loss to the creator but when a digital file gets copied,it deprives the creators the money they deserve for the work they did.They are not "working" for free now are they?Its kinda lame read but since you are in denial phase,pondering on these things is really nice.Its for that reason copyright laws are enforced and it becomes a crime to break it.But unlike you here,I know very well of what I am doing instead of pretending that I am doing nothing wrong.

And quite frankly, I really don't care what your thoughts are on my sense of morality, as you're clearly lacking one yourself (which of course is fine).
Now who was the one saying trading/cheating is morally wrong,was it me?I never said I followed moral principles but I sure well understand the concept of morality.When you argue rules built around an "illegal" system is morally correct,it reeks of stupidity ain't it?But then again you think what you do is not illegal,like psychos think what they do is correct.

If it makes you feel better to call yourself a thief, do so.
So if a thief rationalizes himself into thinking that he is not a thief that makes a thief not a thief?

I didn't escape anything
You have been escaping all along.

Good, you agree.
Yes I agree on the fact that there are sites out there that takes time,effort and socialization to get an invite.

So are collectors any good?

Nope, but that's completely irrelevant to this thread.

How come it is irrelevant,When collectors who spend their time,effort and does write fucking long paragraphs are the same as a trader.You said this din't you "traders are too lazy to write anything more than a few words, too lazy to fill out an application or take an interview, and too lazy to give anything back to any site they join. Fucking over the people who're risking their asses so that you can download free stuff might be fine for you, that's your call."

Read some of my earlier replies, I'm not here to constantly repeat myself.
You constantly make no sense.

ca_aok

08-23-2010, 07:03 PM

If you don't understand the difference between copyright infringement and theft (which is a legal definition, not a made up one like your view on the matter), then I'm done with you. You clearly have no inclination to listen to anything but the incorrect bullshit you spew. Collectors are a problem for a whole different reason outside the entire scope of this thread, which has to do with trading, period.

You're the one who's escaping reality here. I'm quite aware that I'm breaking the law, but I'm not committing theft. Arguing that everyone who downloads something equates to a lost sale is quite simply retarded logic. I'd never have bought 90% of what I've pirated, and the other 10% has generally been bought after the fact.

hagckz0r

08-23-2010, 09:48 PM

Arguing that everyone who downloads something equates to a lost sale is quite simply retarded logic.

Well believe it or not, that is exactly a lost sale. Hehe, I just discovered gravity :D.

deadalive1

08-23-2010, 11:28 PM

Actually no it isn't, I have downloaded CD's from the net and after listening to them decided I liked them and then went out and bought the CD (therefore showing my support for the artist). So no, not "exactly" a lost sale.

1000possibleclaws

08-24-2010, 12:00 AM

"Yeah you're a beautiful consumer,
and I don't want to move back home.
So download all the songs we wrote
and hype it up with some bullshit quotes.
Yeah, we're on a roll." - Kristian Hallbert

08-24-2010, 01:40 PM

If you don't understand the difference between copyright infringement and theft (which is a legal definition, not a made up one like your view on the matter)
Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works covered by copyright law, in a way that violates one of the copyright owner's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

Comparison to theft
Further information: Dowling v. United States (1985)

Copyright infringement is often equated with theft, for instance in the title of the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997, in Vice President Joe Biden's 2010 statement in an official speech showcasing the Obama-administration IP policy that "file-sharing is theft", and in the Digital Britain report which calls it "effectively a civil form of theft"[56]; but in fact it has major legal differences.

Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ...

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
—Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218

The key distinction generally drawn, as indicated above, is that while copyright infringement may (or may not) cause economic loss to the copyright holder, as theft does, it does not appropriate a physical object, nor deprive the copyright holder of the use of the copyright. That information can be replicated without destroying an original is an old observation,[57] and a cornerstone of intellectual property law.
Source:Wikipedia with valid sources inline.
By the above even if copyright infringement is not exactly theft in black and white,It does have the same characteristics of theft.But since digital files have a different "physical property" than real world objects,it gives several loop holes to argue the topic theft vs copying when it comes to digital files.

but I'm not committing theft.
yea you are getting files for free when you should have bought it.

Actually no it isn't, I have downloaded CD's from the net and after listening to them decided I liked them and then went out and bought the CD (therefore showing my support for the artist). So no, not "exactly" a lost sale.

Arguing that everyone who downloads something equates to a lost sale is quite simply retarded logic. I'd never have bought 90% of what I've pirated, and the other 10% has generally been bought after the fact.
We are not talking about business models here and proving if giving shit for free will inturn increase sales or not.We are not talking about what triggered you to pay/buy or about your collection.When a Music/Movie is out there,it is supposed to be bought.Not pirating it and then buying it if you liked it or some BS like that.
Every download is equal to a lost sale is bullshit.But they are not asking you to make copies either.They are stating,If you want something,pay for it.If you dont wanna listen/watch its fine.We dont give a rats ass.But if you wanna listen/watch then pay for it.They dont care if 90% of people dosent buy their product,they are just concerned about the 10% that pay for the product.Thats how they make it out to be.But we being pirates do what we want.

You're the one who's escaping reality here. I'm quite aware that I'm breaking the law,
That was hilarious.So you have no problem in breaking the law but you throw the moral bullshit at people who break the system of an illegally run tracker.

n00bz0r

08-24-2010, 03:50 PM

:frusty:

deadalive1

08-24-2010, 04:22 PM

lol n00bz0r I second your :frusty:

ca_aok

08-24-2010, 05:27 PM

anon

08-24-2010, 05:46 PM

all traders should be banned . .

All FST trolls with 100+ accounts should be banned, also.

08-24-2010, 06:16 PM

Thanks for quoting an article that proves I was right and you were wrong, I appreciate it. Then you proceed to try and argue your failure of a point after the proof is quoted directly above. Just because you "feel" something is theft, doesn't make it so, whether in the eyes of the law or the general public.

Just like your Moral BS,is it?Not everything can be perfectly explained in a clear black and white statement.Or do you think everything is as straightforward and can be put down and explained to the very minute of details?

And I have no idea what you're blabbering about with your RIAA style trolling, but there's never been any proof that a download is a lost sale.
Good job on reading what I wrote.

Every download is equal to a lost sale is bullshit.
Then again,you were not going to read or gonna listen.Not surprised.

And about that picture,I replied it in #62
The famous argument "Copying files is not theft" is horseshit really and everyone knows it as well.People are comparing two different systems on the same level.In real world copying may not be a big deal because there is no loss to the creator but when a digital file gets copied,it deprives the creators the money they deserve for the work they did.They are not "working" for free now are they?Suppose if in the real world as well,If people had the means of replicating the exact copies of Books or the products they buy in large scale,what would have been the state?

We get it. You're a badass software pirate who's breaking all the rules and couldn't give a shit about it. No one cares.
And you are someone who uses petty excuses to make yourself believe what you are doing is correct and also accepts you are breaking rules and at the same time throws tantrums about Morality at others.Another hypocrite(?)

ca_aok

08-24-2010, 06:50 PM

Just like your Moral BS,is it?Not everything can be perfectly explained in a clear black and white statement.Or do you think everything is as straightforward and can be put down and explained to the very minute of details?
Oh, the world is not black and white eh? We'll come back to this at the end of what will be my last reply to your tired logic.

Then again,you were not going to read or gonna listen.Not surprised.
Actually I did read it, it's merely incorrect. You "claim" that you believe that every download isn't a lost sale, and then you contradict yourself immediately afterward by trying to tell me that creators are somehow losing money from these copies.

The famous argument "Copying files is not theft" is horseshit really and everyone knows it as well.People are comparing two different systems on the same level.In real world copying may not be a big deal because there is no loss to the creator but when a digital file gets copied,it deprives the creators the money they deserve for the work they did.They are not "working" for free now are they? Suppose if in the real world as well,If people had the means of replicating the exact copies of Books or the products they buy in large scale,what would have been the state?
Umm... "Everyone really knows it is" is not a valid argument to back up your failure of a claim. And actually, we're comparing systems on two different levels, not the least of which is criminal v.s. civil. Oh and pro tip: It's called photocopiers, and libraries. Or using a different example, the radio. Or antenna TV. Or tape recordings. Society didn't fall apart due to any of those, despite bleating from the media corporations.

And you are someone who uses petty excuses to make yourself believe what you are doing is correct and also accepts you are breaking rules and at the same time throws tantrums about Morality at others.
I never said I was correct, I corrected your idiocy. There's a difference.

So to wrap things up, you prefaced your post with "the world is not black and white". Well neither is filesharing. Your terrible argument of "you're breaking one rule, therefore fuck all other rules" is ridiculous. I fully expect you to go out there and start murdering, raping, and pillaging since hey, you're "stealing", so saying we should follow any other rules is of course stupid!

Furthermore, the shades of gray in filesharing is exactly where morality comes into play. If you accepted the logic that just because you pirate, you can't just ignore every other rule on the planet, then perhaps you'd realize that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish. "Honour among thieves" is a misused term that's often thrown around, but it's got a ring of truth to it as well. If you don't want to play nicely, no one's forcing you to use private BT sites, and indeed, eventually you'll be forcefully ejected. And we won't miss you. If you want to just consume consume consume, I suggest a usenet subscription.

Enjoy being an e-thug.

pone44

08-24-2010, 07:01 PM

Why does this always turn into a morality debate? Ffs, Pirating is not a MAJOR crime,maybe a big fine(at least where i am from). Does anyone think these artists/movie studios do not make their money,even if the product sucks.?

08-24-2010, 07:18 PM

Actually I did read it, it's merely incorrect. You "claim" that you believe that every download isn't a lost sale, and then you contradict yourself immediately afterward by trying to tell me that creators are somehow losing money from these copies.

Yes every download is not a sale.If people had to buy every Music CD/Movie DVD out there,many just wont buy at all and just buy the stuff they are interested in buying.But that dosent give you the license to go around making copies now does it?

Oh and pro tip: It's called photocopiers, and libraries. Or using a different example, the radio. Or antenna TV. Or tape recordings. Society didn't fall apart due to any of those, despite bleating from the media corporations.
oh and protip,you missed the word "large scale" in my reply.It makes a helleva lot of difference you know.and oh gawd having an exact copy of CD/DVD with you is the same as listening to or watching radio or TV?If you want I can give you the differences between the two.

Your terrible argument of "you're breaking one rule, therefore fuck all other rules" is ridiculous.
Incorrect.I dint say just because you are breaking one rule,fuck all other rules.This discussion was never ever about rules now,was it?It was about morality.You seem to have a twisted sense of morality when you feel OK to break law and then apply moral principles on the RULES BUILT ON the SAME immoral system.

Furthermore, the shades of gray in filesharing is exactly where morality comes into play. If you accepted the logic that just because you pirate, you can't just ignore every other rule on the planet, then perhaps you'd realize that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish. "Honour among thieves" is a misused term that's often thrown around, but it's got a ring of truth to it as well.
I lol'd when you said "that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish".aaah oh well.:lol:.lemme ask you something.The people who risk their lifes just so that normal lowly humans like me can download files are doing it voluntarily right?Is anyone pressuring them to do what they do?And what type of risk are you talking about?who are the ones getting copyright infringement letters,Members who expose their IPs while downloading or the Mods/Admins who are well secured by employing different kinds of security and privacy measures to hide themselves?

If you don't want to play nicely, no one's forcing you to use private BT sites
I wont break the rules but at the same time I know throwing moral crap is baseless and stupid as well.

and indeed, eventually you'll be forcefully ejected.
I dont see myself getting ejected until i decide to do so myself.

If you want to just consume consume consume, I suggest a usenet subscription.
Usenet and DDL communities are another way to share the files where PEOPLE SHARE FILES.What makes you think Usenet is all about "consume consume consume",because people dont have to put their PC online 24*7 and keep on seeding?Is that what you call giving back to the community?

1000possibleclaws

08-24-2010, 07:28 PM

Thanks for totally hijacking my thread guys :dabs:

(to be honest I don't mind this angsty turn of events one bit )

pone44

08-24-2010, 07:33 PM

ca_aok

08-24-2010, 07:41 PM

Thanks for totally hijacking my thread guys :dabs:

(to be honest I don't mind this angsty turn of events one bit )
Unfortunately I'm done with our little buddy who loves contradicting his own arguments in each new reply :(

I scratched my 'best of Michal Bolton' CDhttp://filesharingtalk.../vb3/images/smilies/dabs.gif. Why can't i just download it or is it morally correct to go buy another copy?
Depending on your country's law, that's actually legal. But of course, you're actually a thief for doing so. You should've clearly bought a backup copy at the time.

08-24-2010, 07:46 PM

I scratched my 'best of Michal Bolton' CD:dabs:. Why can't i just download it or is it morally correct to go buy another copy?

Yes every download is not a sale.If people had to buy every Music CD/Movie DVD out there,many just wont buy at all and just buy the stuff they are interested in buying.But that dosent give you the license to go around making copies now does it?

I scratched and destroyed my LCD monitor and is on the way to break in and take another LCD monitor from the vendors shop.And oh by the way if you have been reading this thread its not me who has moral conflicts here.You can do what you want just like me. :)

Unfortunately I'm done with our little buddy who loves contradicting his own arguments in each new reply
yea more like since you cant pull the moral card anymore,you dont have anything else to say except mock around to get some kick out of it.pathetic.
And since most of the stuff is as you mentioned is in "shades of gray".It is easy to dodge by saying one statement is contradicting the other when I have given explanation for each argument I have made.
Anyway I am off to sleep,its 1:17am here.GN

stoi

08-24-2010, 07:47 PM

If you pirate you are breaking the law, whether that is civil or criminal prosecution, you are still breaking it. (actually cracking protection/being the very 1st uploader/source is criminal, downloading/uploading is civil)

trading/cheating, you are breaking a poxy tracker rule, there is no law involved at all, its what the staff think is best for their tracker, some trackers dont care about either, others do, but its still just a poxy rule, if you get caught you get banned, just deal with it.

but i still cant see just because the tracker hosts copywrite material, gives members the right, to break the tracker rules that the copywrite material is on (actually the tracker doesnt even host the stuff, the members do), never ever understood that one i am afraid.

all it is for is the good of the tracker, what if every member cheated, or hit and run, or limited their upload, the cheaters would be the first to complain that the tracker is shit, when its them that is making it shit, if everyone traded invites/accounts, everyone would be hiding away, no one would take part, no one would upload, and again the traders would be complaining that the tracker is shit.

then when we ban the above, they lie and say they done nothing wrong on other forums, shit is easy to throw, its a lot harder to wash off and get the smell away.

we are damned if we do and we are damned if we dont.

deadalive1

08-24-2010, 08:01 PM

Absolutely stoi, couldn't of said it better.

pone44

08-24-2010, 08:14 PM

Back to invite trading. I do not trade invites or anything like that because it is shady(scams,global bans,etc), and I made promises that I do not intend to break out of respect for certain people.

hagckz0r

08-24-2010, 09:26 PM

Back to invite trading. I do not trade invites or anything like that because it is shady(scams,global bans,etc), and I made promises that I do not intend to break out of respect for certain people.

From this you seem to have too little personality. You SHOULD always do what you believe suits best your needs/interests. Never act like a robot who's told by someone else to do a certain thing.

Some people obey the rules because they are simply obediant or really believe rules must be respected(cause they are the right thing to do). But there are also people who take a look at some rules and say some are crap and they also act in consequence.

@Stoi at some point you said something that traders don't get involved and they always stay lurking in darkness. I passed that time and I can tell you I was nothing like you described although I do suspect I might have been an exception from the rule.

@ca_aok if you have an original cd and it gets scratched, unlistenable the yes ofc you can download the same rip from a tracker. But don't tell me that a downloaded torrent isn't a loss from the ones that have the right to sell it on market.

stoi

08-24-2010, 09:39 PM

well if the person you traded with (i mean accounts more than invites, but it still happens with invite traders as well) was a new member, or didnt use the community much, then you came in and started to use it, then of course it would be hard to spot, but if the member was in good standing, had 400 torrents downloaded 100+ comments/forum posts/IRC whore, you come in on his account, and ask why you cant download (or any other noob question) or just write in a different way to the usual user, then it pretty easy, hence why most ppl that trade to get in, try to stay hidden in the background.

as for the 1 download = 1 loss of sales, what a load of rubbish, if i had to buy windows, i would use linux, I downloaded Maya with the Pixar addon a few years back, $18,000 of software at the time, I just done it to say i had a program on my pc that cost more than most peoples cars lol I did install it, mesed about for 2-3 hours, then never looked at it again, I would have never ever bought it in a million years, as there is just no way i could afford $18,000 for 1 program. But saying that, if my job was to use maya and the pixar addon, and i was on a good salery, then yes, I would have bought it.

and on the other hand, Kick Ass the movie, never seen a trailer, my son went to see it, came back said hmm it was ok, so i never really looked into it, I downloded it the other week, thought it was great, right up my street with the OTT fighting aka Hard Boiled, Itchi the Killer etc and bought it on Blu-Ray/DVD combo, but if i had never downloaded it, I would have never even thought to have bought it, ever. (well maybe in 4 years when it comes out on TV).

pone44

08-24-2010, 10:10 PM

I am saying that I am not the type of person that gives makes a promise and doesn't follow through. What does that have to do with my personality and who are you to judge?

Back to invite trading. I do not trade invites or anything like that because it is shady(scams,global bans,etc), and I made promises that I do not intend to break out of respect for certain people.

From this you seem to have too little personality. You SHOULD always do what you believe suits best your needs/interests. Never act like a robot who's told by someone else to do a certain thing.

Some people obey the rules because they are simply obediant or really believe rules must be respected(cause they are the right thing to do). But there are also people who take a look at some rules and say some are crap and they also act in consequence.

Thanks but you preaching to the choir.
I could give a sh8t about trading invites. I do not hate those who do! It is their choice.

Funkin'

08-25-2010, 03:48 AM

I think you all are glossing over one huge detail. Pone is a Micheal Bolton fan. :O

08-25-2010, 06:01 AM

Sorry for making one last offtopic post in this thread.

trading/cheating, you are breaking a poxy tracker rule, there is no law involved at all, its what the staff think is best for their tracker, some trackers dont care about either, others do, but its still just a poxy rule, if you get caught you get banned, just deal with it.
Yea thats exactly what I am saying.Instead of mixing moral principles,people should see rules as rules.Nothing more,nothing less.

but i still cant see just because the tracker hosts copywrite material, gives members the right, to break the tracker rules that the copywrite material is on (actually the tracker doesnt even host the stuff, the members do), never ever understood that one i am afraid.

I dint say that.

stoi

08-25-2010, 01:51 PM

Did i say "YOU" did?

Tutela

08-25-2010, 08:07 PM

Having been around for a while, but just not too "involved" my view is this.
Trading invites is great- it means, I sell my xbox and I don't need BCG anymore, but I want waffles, so I trade with someone for waffles, cos he's just bought my xbox! Fantastic everyones happy, staff are happy that the account is still used, I;m happy cos I have somewhere to download music from!

it's like communism, it's a great idea, but doesn't work out so well.
3 problems-
1) I trade for a waffles invite, from blackcats, and get into waffles, and think I only need to seed for x amount of days, or while I can, and can download whatever I want, end up banned in 3 days, because I don't know how it works.

2) elitest site owners frowning upon trading because that means everyone can get into their "rare" site if they allow people to trade invites, therefore decreasing value.

and 3- the reason I don't trade. People are *****, they will lie, cheat and steal to get their own way, and not care what happens to you. if I trade a BCG acc for a waffles acc, cos I want to use it, for all I know, he could have it at one album is going to put me into a leecher status or the equilovent, and it's the last chance I have, so I get banned, lose the account and he's ****** off with my account, so I'm left with nothing, and BCG is going to get fucked over by that guy again!

If everyone was honest, there'd be no problem with trading.

(sorry for using BCG as an example stoi, I saw you and BCG was the first tat came to mind)