Just a thought

[Rart]

Maybe I am just playing the devil's advocate here, but I think it's something interesting to think about, maybe help us put things in perspective.

I think a lot of us have seen the "You wouldn't steal a car commercial" (and if you haven't, a quick youtube search will show you it), and we can all probably agree that they just take hyperbole to a whole other level.

But that got me thinking: what about the little things? If you think about it, they only put the serious anti theft measures on the more valuable things. What about, say, a soda can? A bag of chips? Anything small, perhaps at the nearest convenience/drug store.

I don't know about you guys, but at least to me, a little part of me somewhere, tells me that it is really, genuinely "wrong" and I would never, ever consider taking it without paying for it. Its certainly marked in my books as "taboo", and I've never done it before in my life.

Then it begs the question: exactly how is that different from pirating files? They're both rather cheap, inconsequential items in the grand scheme of things. Similar to pirating files, no one would really notice. You could probably get away with it rather easily and no one would bat an eye. Does that make it any worse than pirating files then?

You could say that you don't like paying for songs/movies/games that aren't up to your standards, but will pay for files that "deserve" it. Do soda cans or chips deserve it either? Relatively bland and uninspiring in design, often simply derivatives of other brand names. No "effort" was spent into making them worthwhile. Should we not pay for them either?

You could say that you don't like supporting the behemoth corporations that ultimately end up profiting the most from the entertainment industry, grossly overcharging us at the same time. So does that mean we should be supporting the few, behemoth corporations that manufacture the large majority of snacks and drinks? Relatively easy and thoughtless to create, and at only a few cents, if that, mostly to create the packaging, they seem to be profiting grandly as well for there efforts. Does that, too, mean we shouldn't pay for them?

So why exactly do we take to "stealing" files so lightly while being so sensitive to real, physical objects? Are we unfairly desensitized to items that we can't physically grasp? Thoughts?

[Funkin']

So why exactly do we take to "stealing" files so lightly while being so sensitive to real, physical objects? Are we unfairly desensitized to items that we can't physically grasp? Thoughts?

Because there's a very small chance that we'll get caught. Unlike stealing a physical object from somewhere like a drug store.

[Night0wl]

When you steal small items from a store, you are actually robbing the story of money. While you can't be sure that this exact item would be bought, the store has still paid for said item and will have to restock said item.

When you download something, you get this funny word added to the above. When you download something, you are "potentially" robbing someone of "potential" money, that could be "potentially" made. Since said item isn't physical, someone else can buy this exact item, the "store" hasn't lost anything, and will not have to restock anything.

[megabyteme]

Do you feel guilty going to a library and borrowing a book? Does your viewing of a movie diminish the product in any way? Should you pay each and every time you listen to a CD? Is it OK to lend books/movies/CDs to friends? If so, how many? Do you need a judge to determine how many friends you can "legally" lend a media item to friends? These are all unsettled questions that need to be answered before the corporations get to lock down all media.

You should be able to find one of my posts discussing the comparison between filesharing and a library. It got buried in the general filesharing section, so only a handful of people read it. Maybe that will ease your troubled mind a bit... :console:

[Canadiense]

Yes, the libraries here let you take home movies and also let you download audiobooks right from their own website.

With digital media, there is no "theft", like in the sense of stealing a physical object. It's a copy.

The blank media tax/levy is used to compensate for this copying, and the funds are allocated to content producers.

[1000possibleclaws]

When we reach singularity I'd pirate a car in a blink, if I could. I steal only because its super easy, and with the current laws it makes most sense.

[ca_aok]

As has already been said in this thread, copying =/= stealing. If you walked into the store and could somehow make a copy of that soda can while leaving them the original can, then it'd be the same thing.

[YoYoY]

As has already been said in this thread, copying =/= stealing. If you walked into the store and could somehow make a copy of that soda can while leaving them the original can, then it'd be the same thing.

Well , the man who copied the soda here should have paid for it in the first place and this makes the store loses money and the soda company as well.
everything everyone downloads was meant to be sold not to be copied. so instead of selling 100 copy of a movie or a video game , you just sell one and he gives it to the other 99.

[megabyteme]

As has already been said in this thread, copying =/= stealing. If you walked into the store and could somehow make a copy of that soda can while leaving them the original can, then it'd be the same thing.

Well , the man who copied the soda here should have paid for it in the first place and this makes the store loses money and the soda company as well.
everything everyone downloads was meant to be sold not to be copied. so instead of selling 100 copy of a movie or a video game , you just sell one and he gives it to the other 99.

Do you honestly believe everyone who downloads something would have been willing/able to pay for it? Not even close.

Do people feel less guilty downloading a show/movie/game that contains product placements? How about the people who paid for that bit of media- should they feel screwed that they paid full price AND were fed a commercial, too?

Last I checked, the movie industry was expanding all over the globe AND Hollywood keeps setting record profits on one movie after another. I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I feel guilty. If I had to pay anything for a Hollywood movie, I wouldn't care enough to watch it.

[Disme]

Pirating movies and filez is the same as stealing, indeed.

The chance of getting caught and facing the consequences of those actions are completely different when actually stealing in a store or pirating a file.

Most (younger) people tend to find it normal to pirate stuff. There's a growing consensus that pirating files is aok. Physically stealing something is still condemned by most educated people.

It is because of the general perception people start to feel differently about the two kinds of theft. A lot of people claim that entertainment company's make tons of money and are charging to much for their movies/games/softwares and the likes.
But ask yourself ... isn't a company like 'Coca Cola' making enourmous amounts of money by selling their beverage?
Why don't we all run to the store and go stealing our cans of Coca Cola?

It's like smoking ... 40 years ago you were supposed to smoke in the U.S.A. You were a douche when you didn't smoke. That was the general idea of the whole population. I think we all know how the general idea about smoking is nowadays. Smoking has become very 'not done' and is seen upon as bad.

[jenna85]

Pirating movies and filez is the same as stealing, indeed.
...
It's like smoking ... 40 years ago you were supposed to smoke in the U.S.A. You were a douche when you didn't smoke. That was the general idea of the whole population. I think we all know how the general idea about smoking is nowadays. Smoking has become very 'not done' and is seen upon as bad.

So you're basically buying into the image campaign from the content producers and think if they brainwash enough people the general consensus will be like theirs?

I don't get it.
Several years ago we were recording songs from the radio to tapes, lending LP's/CDs/Films/Books around to our friends/colleagues whatever.
Just like the public library example used earlier.
So I can't see the big difference between now and several years ago except from the industry calling us pirates. ;)

[1000possibleclaws]

'Pirating' has become such a norm in Canada, I've had university profs hint at pirating needed software illegally (but make sure not to get caught!! aha) and I've even had to teach my 'rents how to download mp3s for their ipods after constant nagging, because going out to a store to get music is just ridiculous, and I don't think they even realize you can buy straight from iTunes, cause noone does it.

I know only one person who uses iTunes to purchase music, and she is so clueless she names her computer 'saras pc' when her name isn't even sara, for the reason that if she ever gets caught streaming tv shows online, it can't be traced to her :P However I know a few people from the US who buy all their music from iTunes, so maybe the general opinion on this is more pronounced here?

[YoYoY]

Well , the man who copied the soda here should have paid for it in the first place and this makes the store loses money and the soda company as well.
everything everyone downloads was meant to be sold not to be copied. so instead of selling 100 copy of a movie or a video game , you just sell one and he gives it to the other 99.

Do you honestly believe everyone who downloads something would have been willing/able to pay for it? Not even close.

Do people feel less guilty downloading a show/movie/game that contains product placements? How about the people who paid for that bit of media- should they feel screwed that they paid full price AND were fed a commercial, too?

Last I checked, the movie industry was expanding all over the globe AND Hollywood keeps setting record profits on one movie after another. I don't feel sorry for them, nor do I feel guilty. If I had to pay anything for a Hollywood movie, I wouldn't care enough to watch it.

Yes , you are right , but that's not the issue.
See, 99% of what I DL is not available in my country or maybe it's available in certain places with very high prices , so I can't afford it and I'm sure that there are a lot of people like me and I'm not blaming anyone for downloading instead of buying.
I'm not feeling sorry for them , or even guilty but that doesn't mean that this is not kind of stealing. we have to admit that they lose money because of this.they steal from us so we steal from them , and this still makes it stealing.

Of course I'd pay for my own food rather than pay for a movie or a video game , there are priorities.

I may be right or wrong but this is how I see it

[P2PDog]

Pirating is pirating, it is what it is, it's simply not synonymous with theft, they're two separate crimes. With theft, as in the soda pop example, you're taking a physical object from someone and depriving them of that object, while pirating merely makes a digital copy of something that leaves the original 100% intact. I'm not under any illusion that pirating is completely legal, but I also don't see it as a crime even remotely similar to theft.

I can justify my "crime" by the fact that I don't feel I'm depriving anyone of any income from my actions. I still spend the same amount that I always did going to theaters, buying CDs, etc. The main reason I pirate stuff is for the convenience. Most of the TV shows I download are available locally, and I could just record them using my PVR, but I find it much more convenient to download the ones I want to watch and I get the bonus of not having to fast-forward through the commercials. With Wii games, the recordable media don't last nearly as long as store bought media do, so any games that are played enough to wear out a recordable disc are the ones I buy. I consider it my own personal demo plan :). If there was a legal service available that had the same library of media available with the same amount of convenience (ie: not having to handle physical media), I'd gladly pay for it, but instead the big media companies want me to remain in the past. I have hope that someday a younger generation will make it's way into management of those companies and bring them up to date, until then I'll happily pirate what I want and need in a way that is convenient for me. I'm a pirate. Not a thief, just a pirate.

[ca_aok]

Honestly I could care less about justifying what I do, I'm perfectly aware it's illegal (it's sorta isn't in Canada yet, but that's probably going to change soon). I just find the people who call it "theft" when both intuitively and legally it's not theft hilarious. And the "1 download = 1 lost sale" argument is also ridiculous.

If there was a source of music similar to What, that you had to pay a monthly fee to use, I'd do so in a heartbeat. If CDs were cheaper ($5-10 rather than the $15-25 they are now) I'd have a hell of a lot more of them, but I also have a larger music collection than anyone else my age that I've ever met (~300 CDs, ~50 LPs). That's a shitload of money in the RIAA's pocket, and plenty of those artists were discovered through piracy.

I think we need to move towards a model like Spotify, they're definitely on to something with that service. Too bad it's widely unavailable in more than a few countries.

[Intr4ns1t]

Myself, as a long time, and avid movie fan, I have owned physical copies of the vast majority of the dvd's I possess digital copies of. The main reason I got a computer in the first place was because I was sick and tired of spending $30-$50 dollars per movie, only to find out, after the fact, that about 3/4 of those movies were absolute shit. Having paid for physical copies gives me every legal right to own a digital copy, so long as I don't share it with others, but I choose to give others the chance to try it before they buy it.

While this isn't an ideal justification, it's a fact. I figured out at one point, going through my collection of dvd's that, over the course of 2 years, I had spent nearly 20 grand on video entertainment. My personal estimation of the worth of those dvd's is MUCH MUCH lower, and had I been able to view many of those movies beforehand, I never would've wasted a single moment on watching them.

If I go to a retail store, and see a can of soda worth about 6 cents(not including that packaging) in reality, on sale for 1$ a can, while I won't steal it, I surely could give a shit to pay the ridiculous price I'm being charged, so I buy the ingredients to make a sweet wet drink, and make that shit at home. I make music at home, and while I don't make movies at home, I would if I had the resources.

The truth is, hard media is dying, and the media providers are scrambling trying to keep a hold of a disgustingly overburdened method of distribution, that is terribly cost-ineffective. For the end consumer at least. For too long, the lions share of any profits from artistic entertainment has been robbed from the artists anyways, so, why should I feel bad about taking money away from a shitty entertainment megaconglomerate, who do nothing more than tell us the junk they feed us is the pinnacle of entertainment? Personally, I think most musicians would make far more money if they released their music directly to the end user, rather than giving 95% or more of the proceeds to the labels they are trapped with.

I helped a band from my home town get their music online, and they sold something along the order of 100 cd's via that route, as opposed to the 20 cd's they had sold in the 6 months before that, trying to hawk their cd's at shows. Seems to me they made a better decision to get their music out there via the file sharing method rather than trying to hustle discs at shows. Statistically at least.

$0.02

[n00bz0r]

Myself, as a long time, and avid movie fan, I have owned physical copies of the vast majority of the dvd's I possess digital copies of. The main reason I got a computer in the first place was because I was sick and tired of spending $30-$50 dollars per movie, only to find out, after the fact, that about 3/4 of those movies were absolute shit. Having paid for physical copies gives me every legal right to own a digital copy, so long as I don't share it with others, but I choose to give others the chance to try it before they buy it.

While this isn't an ideal justification, it's a fact. I figured out at one point, going through my collection of dvd's that, over the course of 2 years, I had spent nearly 20 grand on video entertainment. My personal estimation of the worth of those dvd's is MUCH MUCH lower, and had I been able to view many of those movies beforehand, I never would've wasted a single moment on watching them.

If I go to a retail store, and see a can of soda worth about 6 cents(not including that packaging) in reality, on sale for 1$ a can, while I won't steal it, I surely could give a shit to pay the ridiculous price I'm being charged, so I buy the ingredients to make a sweet wet drink, and make that shit at home. I make music at home, and while I don't make movies at home, I would if I had the resources.

The truth is, hard media is dying, and the media providers are scrambling trying to keep a hold of a disgustingly overburdened method of distribution, that is terribly cost-ineffective. For the end consumer at least. For too long, the lions share of any profits from artistic entertainment has been robbed from the artists anyways, so, why should I feel bad about taking money away from a shitty entertainment megaconglomerate, who do nothing more than tell us the junk they feed us is the pinnacle of entertainment? Personally, I think most musicians would make far more money if they released their music directly to the end user, rather than giving 95% or more of the proceeds to the labels they are trapped with.

I helped a band from my home town get their music online, and they sold something along the order of 100 cd's via that route, as opposed to the 20 cd's they had sold in the 6 months before that, trying to hawk their cd's at shows. Seems to me they made a better decision to get their music out there via the file sharing method rather than trying to hustle discs at shows. Statistically at least.

$0.02

infuckintransit.. :wub:
welcome back homie!

[megabyteme]

Incredibly poignant $0.02, as usual.

infuckintransit.. :wub:
welcome back homie!

+1! Good to see you back, my friend! :happy:

[Intr4ns1t]

Seemed like there wasn't enough verbal diarrhea here anymore, so I thought I'd throw a bit in :P

[IdolEyes787]

I steal files to stick it to "The Man"
Just as soon as we enter into a matriarchal system I will definitely stop.

[megabyteme]

Seemed like there wasn't enough verbal diarrhea here anymore, so I thought I'd throw a bit in :P

No, we've been quite verbally constipated lately. Thanks to Rart for getting us running again.