Is Bush On His Way Out?

[CrumbCat]

Billionaire Soros
takes on Bush 

Ousting president ‘central
focus of my life,’ he says

http://a799.g.akamai.net/3/799/388/aefeac886b8f45/www.msnbc.com/news/2066293.jpg
 
By Laura Blumenfeld
THE WASHINGTON POST

NEW YORK, Nov. 11 —  George Soros, one of the world’s richest men, has given away nearly $5 billion to promote democracy in the former Soviet bloc, Africa and Asia. Now he has a new project: defeating President Bush.
        “IT IS THE central focus of my life,” Soros said, his blue eyes settled on an unseen target. The 2004 presidential race, he said in an interview, is “a matter of life and death.”
      Soros, who has financed efforts to promote open societies in more than 50 countries around the world, is bringing the fight home, he said. On Monday, he and a partner committed up to $5 million to MoveOn.org, a liberal activist group, bringing to $15.5 million the total of his personal contributions to oust Bush.
     
‘A DANGER TO THE WORLD’
      Overnight, Soros, 74, has become the major financial player of the left. He has elicited cries of foul play from the right. And with a tight nod, he pledged: “If necessary, I would give more money.” 
        “America, under Bush, is a danger to the world,” Soros said. Then he smiled: “And I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is.”
      Soros believes a “supremacist ideology” guides this White House. He hears echoes in its rhetoric of his childhood in occupied Hungary. “When I hear Bush say, ‘You’re either with us or against us,’ it reminds me of the Germans.” It conjures up memories, he said, of Nazi slogans on the walls, Der Feind Hort mit (“The enemy is listening”): “My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me,” he said in a soft Hungarian accent.
      Soros’s contributions are filling a gap in Democratic Party finances that opened after the restrictions in the 2002 McCain-Feingold law took effect. In the past, political parties paid a large share of television and get-out-the-vote costs with unregulated “soft money” contributions from corporations, unions and rich individuals. The parties are now barred from accepting such money. But non-party groups in both camps are stepping in, accepting soft money and taking over voter mobilization.
      “It’s incredibly ironic that George Soros is trying to create a more open society by using an unregulated, under-the-radar-screen, shadowy, soft-money group to do it,” Republican National Committee spokeswoman Christine Iverson said. “George Soros has purchased the Democratic Party.”
      In past election cycles, Soros contributed relatively modest sums. In 2000, his aide said, he gave $122,000, mostly to Democratic causes and candidates. But recently, Soros has grown alarmed at the influence of neoconservatives, whom he calls “a bunch of extremists guided by a crude form of social Darwinism.” 
        Neoconservatives, Soros said, are exploiting the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to promote a preexisting agenda of preemptive war and world dominion. “Bush feels that on September 11th he was anointed by God,” Soros said. “He’s leading the U.S. and the world toward a vicious circle of escalating violence.”
     
‘THE SOROS DOCTRINE’
      Soros said he had been waking at 3 a.m., his thoughts shaking him “like an alarm clock.” Sitting in his robe, he wrote his ideas down, longhand, on a stack of pads. In January, PublicAffairs will publish them as a book, “The Bubble of American Supremacy” (an excerpt appears in December’s Atlantic Monthly). In it, he argues for a collective approach to security, increased foreign aid and “preventive action.”
      “It would be too immodest for a private person to set himself up against the president,” he said. “But it is, in fact” — he chuckled — “the Soros Doctorine.”
      His campaign began last summer with the help of Mort Halpern, a liberal think tank veteran. Soros invited Democratic strategists to his house in Southampton, Long Island, including Clinton chief of staff John D. Podesta, Jeremy Rosner, Robert Boorstin and Carl Pope.
      They discussed the coming election. Standing on the back deck, the evening sun angling into their eyes, Soros took aside Steve Rosenthal, CEO of the liberal activist group America Coming Together (ACT), and Ellen Malcolm, its president. They were proposing to mobilize voters in 17 battleground states. Soros told them he would give ACT $10 million.
      Asked about his moment in the sun, Rosenthal deadpanned: “We were disappointed. We thought a guy like George Soros could do more.” Then he laughed. “No, kidding! It was thrilling.”
      Malcolm: “It was like getting his Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.”
      “They were ready to kiss me,” Soros quipped. 
Before coffee the next morning, his friend Peter Lewis, chairman of the Progressive Corp., had pledged $10 million to ACT. Rob Glaser, founder and CEO of RealNetworks, promised $2 million. Rob McKay, president of the McKay Family Foundation, gave $1 million and benefactors Lewis and Dorothy Cullman committed $500,000.
      Soros also promised up to $3 million to Podesta’s new think tank, the Center for American Progress.
      Soros will continue to recruit wealthy donors for his campaign. Having put a lot of money into the war of ideas around the world, he has learned that “money buys talent; you can advocate more effectively.”
      At his home in Westchester, N.Y., he raised $115,000 for Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. He also supports Democratic presidential contenders Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark and Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.).
      In an effort to limit Soros’s influence, the RNC sent a letter to Dean Monday, asking him to request that ACT and similar organizations follow the McCain-Feingold restrictions limiting individual contributions to $2,000.
     
‘WATCHDOGGING HIM CLOSELY’
      The RNC is not the only group irked by Soros. Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21, which promotes changes in campaign finance , has benefited from Soros’s grants over the years. Soros has backed altering campaign finance, an aide said, donating close to $18 million over the past seven years.
      “There’s some irony, given the supporting role he played in helping to end the soft money system,” Wertheimer said. “I’m sorry that Mr. Soros has decided to put so much money into a political effort to defeat a candidate. We will be watchdogging him closely.”
      An aide said Soros welcomes the scrutiny. Soros has become as rich as he has, the aide said, because he has a preternatural instinct for a good deal.
      Asked whether he would trade his $7 billion fortune to unseat Bush, Soros opened his mouth. Then he closed it. The proposal hung in the air: Would he become poor to beat Bush?
      He said: “If someone guaranteed it.”
     
      © 2003 The Washington Post Company

[Spindulik]

I said it here before the IRAQ war, and I will emphasize it again. (and I wish I hadn't change my opinion after the war started, but now I am back with my original opinion stated here). Bush is not good. Let Saddam "do his thing", leave them wallowing in their own quagmire. It is their country, who are we to tell them what to do.

Now BUSH has caused the USA to lose its integerity will all other countries. Who the hell is going to trust the USA anymore. I know I wouldn't. The entire time that Bush was fussing with the Saddam thing, the real threat was North Korea. Too late now. China and Japan are very nervous about North Korea, and if they would need help from the USA, they probably wouldn't ask the USA.

Clinton would have never assumed weapons of mass destruction as 100% until real proof existed, and then he'd find a calm way to resolve thae Iraq situation. Not waste billions of dollars. My dollars. The gov. taking my hard earned money to do crap like that. The gov is so greedy, they spend 50 cents in postage to tell me I owe them 25 cents.

[lynx]

Prior to Bush's visit to Britain next week, his security advisors have demanded that there must be no anti-war demonstrations during his visit. What sort of reception would such demands receive if they were made in the US?

I suspect that his security advisors are going to be politely told to go and fuck themselves, to make a serious effort to block such demonstrations would be political suicide. But one wonders if this is merely a last minute exercise to try to find a reason to cancel the visit. We shall have to wait and see.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by lynx@12 November 2003 - 20:41
Prior to Bush's visit to Britain next week, his security advisors have demanded that there must be no anti-war demonstrations during his visit. What sort of reception would such demands receive if they were made in the US?

I suspect that his security advisors are going to be politely told to go and fuck themselves, to make a serious effort to block such demonstrations would be political suicide. But one wonders if this is merely a last minute exercise to try to find a reason to cancel the visit. We shall have to wait and see.
And of course the very fact he demanded this, means that we will demonstrate...

Until this came to light, i had absolutely no interest (and neither did my colleagues) of going on another protest..... now we have 2 coachloads travelling to London to protest.

;)

:lol: :lol:

[nikita69]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@13 November 2003 - 04:02
Until this came to light, i had absolutely no interest (and neither did my colleagues) of going on another protest..... now we have 2 coachloads travelling to London to protest.

;)

:lol: :lol:
count me in, when will this take place. i have to be in london next week for a bus meeting.

[internet.news]

bush is unf. also just a human - that is sad. yes, maybe there is hope...
hehe... If economy would not rise too much he should worry about reelection ...
cause he promised to improve economy...

~nice dreams...

[MediaSlayer]

off topic:david your pm's that you sent me didn't show up proplerly so i have no idea what you said in the 2nd and 3rd pm's . i would have sent a pm instead of spamming this thread but that would have led to more pm's that were mostly blank. i can edit this post and paste the pm's if needed.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by nikita69+12 November 2003 - 22:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nikita69 @ 12 November 2003 - 22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@13 November 2003 - 04:02
Until this came to light, i had absolutely no interest (and neither did my colleagues) of going on another protest..... now we have 2 coachloads travelling to London to protest.

;)

:lol: :lol:
count me in, when will this take place. i have to be in london next week for a bus meeting. [/b][/quote]
November 20th...

But shhh..... its already been banned, so dont tell anyone ;)

Never seen interest in a protest take off so quick...if they&#39;d kept their mouths shut there would have been a couple of hundred, now there&#39;ll probably be thousands.

:lol: :lol:

[lynx]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+12 November 2003 - 23:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 12 November 2003 - 23:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by nikita69@12 November 2003 - 22:19
<!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@13 November 2003 - 04:02
Until this came to light, i had absolutely no interest (and neither did my colleagues) of going on another protest..... now we have 2 coachloads travelling to London to protest.

;)

:lol: :lol:
count me in, when will this take place. i have to be in london next week for a bus meeting.
November 20th...

But shhh..... its already been banned, so dont tell anyone ;)

Never seen interest in a protest take off so quick...if they&#39;d kept their mouths shut there would have been a couple of hundred, now there&#39;ll probably be thousands.

:lol: :lol: [/b][/quote]
I think you can probably put those figures together.

I reckon at least 200 thousand. :lol:

[nikita69]

that date fits perfect in my schedule. :rolleyes:

off topic, hehe, u think if we sent an email to bush with a hash link to all resources of IRAQ, he&#39;d get KL++ and dld it? hehe

[pusher]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 November 2003 - 22:02
And of course the very fact he demanded this, means that we will demonstrate...

Until this came to light, i had absolutely no interest (and neither did my colleagues) of going on another protest..... now we have 2 coachloads travelling to London to protest.

;)

:lol: :lol:
You&#39;re gonna give us a field report right? :D ........

No, seriously you are right?

[Barbarossa]

LONDON (Reuters) - Police say there will be no special "exclusion zones" for U.S. President George W. Bush&#39;s visit next week and he could easily come into contact with anti-war protesters.


Get your rotten eggs ready everyone&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


...or maybe some packets of pretzels&#33; :rolleyes:

[chinook_apache]

is that dude who wants to oust bush a jew?

[Billy_Dean]

Shhh&#33;&#33; Don&#39;t mention jews or you&#39;ll upset MediaSlayer.


:)

[Alex H]

Well I&#39;m an Aussie. Maybe you guys will have better luck with your protests than we did when he came here.

One of our Green Party Senators, Bob Brown got up and shouted during his address to both houses of parliament. And the boys from Johnny-FU-Howard&#39;s party almost jumped on him. "Disrespect for foriegn heads of state, etc, etc"

You would think Bush IS our head of state the way Howard crawls up his arse&#33;

[ljossberir]

from a pissed off US citizen: good luck with the protest in London&#33;&#33;&#33; Don&#39;t let them push you around, be heard&#33;

[echidna]

i wish soros&#39; project well

and power to everyone in the UK for Nov 20
please document and report what ever goes down both here at this board and at indymedia (http://indymedia.org/)
anyone with cameras or camcorders should document as much as possible
[it may be important if the pigs freak out and hurt anyone]

please anyone going definetly ignore colinmac
DO NOT TAKE ANYTHING ON YOUR PERSON WHICH COULD BE CONSTRUED AS A MISSILE
the pigs will be as nervous as if they were at the abotoir gate, so don&#39;t give them any excuses
no marbles or fireworks or fruit[apart from your lunch] or balls etc.

if you do plan clandestine activity do it VERY well :ph34r: [but i highly and strongly recommend not to, presidential security is an amazing thing to witness and having seen how clinton traveled i&#39;d say it was not to be messed with]

oh and just to make you as preped as i can
here&#39;s a little fact sheet i assembled on the cheery topic of tear gas and pepper spray (http://andrews.i8.com/)

@ Rat Faced [& anyone else with data] :: re. the tear gas fact sheet (http://andrews.i8.com/) i&#39;d love some feed back and perhaps further references from anyone with experience of these weapons, ie. para/military/police experience, as i would like to make this guide as accurate as possible any info or feed-back would be greatly apreciated ;)

lots more about the UK bush visit protest can be found here: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/

[Rat Faced]

Tear Gas and Pepper Spray:

What to do.... Close your eyes, hold your breath and stand facing into the wind with arms apart.

After the gas has passed:

Stay like this, breath slowly and shallowly through your nose; as little as possible for approx 10 mins....also loosen your hair and clothing, let the wind blow through it all as much as possible.


At earliest oportunity change your clothes.

What not to do with CS, Tear or pepper gas:

Rub your skin and/or wet your skin....although you will find the temptation really strong...you will only make things worse. This from the voice of experiance with CS lol....


However; can i say here and now....

A demonstration is not for the purposes of Civil Unrest/Violence.

I hereby state catagorically that i will not be undertaking any form of Civil Unrest, nor will anyone else i&#39;ll be with. I do not support those that do take advantage of a legal Demonstration...not least because us poor saps that are merely Demonstrating get painted with the same brush...(and chemicals) as the morons that start that type of stuff.

Any violence is counter-productive, and I havent heard anything on any Grapevine indicating that it will be that type of Demonstration anyway, otherwise i wouldnt be going <_<

[echidna]

Rat, from what i&#39;ve seen in melbourne and sydney in recent years, often the police are the ones provoking.

we haven&#39;t had gas used here though [pepper spray has been used against individuals and small groups]
i am only concerned because i know all of the police forces dealing with large protests these days have &#39;non-leathal crowd control methods&#39; with them and from what i have read these can be very dangerous [spontaneous abortion of feotus&#39;s, heart or respiratory failure in feable folk etc.]

they are used whith a joyous abandon in the USA
[the USA using chemical weapons against it&#39;s own people&#33;
but wasn&#39;t that just saddam? oh it&#39;s both.]

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@16 November 2003 - 20:51
they are used whith&nbsp; a joyous abandon in the USA
[the USA using chemical weapons against it&#39;s own people&#33;
but wasn&#39;t that just saddam? oh it&#39;s both.]
Echidna-

Please document this for me. ;)

BTW-Bush isn&#39;t going anywhere.

Quote me.

Please.

[echidna]

Originally posted by j2k4+17 November 2003 - 11:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 17 November 2003 - 11:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by echidna+16 November 2003 - 20:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna &#064; 16 November 2003 - 20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>they are used whith&nbsp; a joyous abandon in the USA
[the USA using chemical weapons against it&#39;s own people&#33;
but wasn&#39;t that just saddam? oh it&#39;s both.][/b]
Echidna-

Please document this for me. ;)

BTW-Bush isn&#39;t going anywhere.

Quote me.

Please.[/b]

i imagine that you adhere to the double-speak that non leathal gas weapons aren&#39;t chemical weapons,
that opinion is wrong, your military cannot use tear gas on the battle field due to the fact that they are chemical weapons.
the rights and priviledges of citizenship are many and varied, aren&#39;t they.

Originally posted by http://shadow.autono.net/sin001/seattle_images/copmask.htm
http://shadow.autono.net/sin001/seattle_images/riotpolice.jpg
COP PREPARED FOR GASSING DEMONSTRATORS AT SEATTLE WTO PROTEST


Originally posted by http://www.urban75.com/Action/seattle4.html
http://www.urban75.com/Action/Img/seattle03.jpg
Seattle N30 anti WTO demo photo from Independent Media Center, Cops pepper spray protesters

<!--QuoteBegin-http://www.seattlevotermarch.com/sop/assets/images/pepper_spray_me&#045;wto.jpg@
http://www.seattlevotermarch.com/sop/assets/images/pepper_spray_me-wto.jpg[/quote]

<!--QuoteBegin-http://seattle.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=2838
Fuck le Police
by .. 10:09pm Sun Nov 9 &#39;03
http://seattle.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/qbc_fuck_le_police.jpg
That wall with the cops behind it did come down, yes it did. not in this section, down west in the red zone, with a long rope and a lot of bodies, they brought it down.

tons of teargas didn&#39;t help the city officials to earn favor with the city folk either....[/quote]

also see: http://www.vnh.org/MedAspChemBioWar/chapters/chapter_12.htm
i&#39;ve also seen photos of some great new inventions for US cops
skirmish guns that shoot pellets full of mace or pepper spray instead of paint
but i couldn&#39;t find them now,

so in the meantime think of this as the tip of an iceberg of documentation :ph34r:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@16 November 2003 - 20:51

they are used whith&nbsp; a joyous abandon in the USA
[the USA using chemical weapons against it&#39;s own people&#33;

A couple of incidents at the Seattle summit fiasco amounts to "joyous abandon"?

Did you hear what the demonstrators did?

Some heavy-duty vandalism there-but I guess that goes by the boards, huh?

EDIT:

I will grant that pepper spray and tear gas fit the technical definition of chemical weaponry as long as you will likewise stipulate as to their non-lethality.

Your post is a textbook example of inflated rhetoric intended to overstate and mis-lead.

You know better than that.

[j2k4]

With regard to all this "demonstration as free-speech" horseshit:

Demonstrate? Fine.

Protest? Again, fine.

Your right-some might even say your duty.

I defend that.

But to vandalize?

To obstruct?

I remember the anti-war protests in San Francisco involved blocking intersections in the city with people and tape and ropes tied across streets.

There were a couple instances of people (innocent people) dying in ambulances which were blockaded.

This fact didn&#39;t garner so much attention though, because, as a MEDIA event, it was much less spectacular than the protest itself, as news cameras were not present inside the ambulances to show that drama. ;)

[Billy_Dean]

I&#39;m not gonna get involved too much here, but I have Googled around and found several sites that claim these sprays have indeed caused deaths, and are not as non-lethal as claimed.

Here is one ...

Health Hazards of Pepper Spray (http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/starke/pepperspray1.html)


:)

[MagicNakor]

Heh, the Seattle WTO "demonstration?" I&#39;d say parts of it were more like a riot.

But if you&#39;re going to show up at any demonstration with a gas-mask, you&#39;re asking for trouble. Mob mentality is a powerful thing, and it only takes one joker to spark it off.

:ninja:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@17 November 2003 - 08:46
I&#39;m not gonna get involved too much here, but I have Googled around and found several sites that claim these sprays have indeed caused deaths, and are not as non-lethal as claimed.

Here is one ...

Health Hazards of Pepper Spray (http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/starke/pepperspray1.html)


:)
Just as someone who is allergic to bee stings should shy away from bees, so should someone who has a similar aversion to pepper-spray avoid riots.

However, if such a person cannot forego his/her right to "protest", let the chips fall, I say. ;)

Stupid is as stupid does.

[echidna]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@17 November 2003 - 23:49
But if you&#39;re going to show up at any demonstration with a gas-mask, you&#39;re asking for trouble. Mob mentality is a powerful thing, and it only takes one joker to spark it off.
what like all the cops :lol:

there seems to have been an image die back since last i went researching crowd control techniques
so seattle was all i found on short notice
[i think google might finally be getting swamped]

@j2k4 :: if you keep splitting hairs, you will end up cutting your fingers

yes i agree that they are dubbed &#39;non-lethal&#39; which is usually redefined by authorities using the weapons as &#39;less-lethal&#39;, so much less lethal that the US military cannot be alowed to use the agents in battle

think what you will of the protests but really i don&#39;t beleive anyone should ask those cops for directions

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 04:28
i&#39;ve also seen photos of some great new inventions for US cops

So have I-

The new "Milk and Cookies" series of weaponry is almost ready for deployment.

It is a joint project of Fox Products and Nabisco. :)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:12

@j2k4 :: if you keep splitting hairs, you will end up cutting your fingers


And if you keep painting with such a broad brush, your Picasso-like talents will never garner critical notice. ;)

[echidna]

Originally posted by j2k4+18 November 2003 - 00:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 18 November 2003 - 00:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:12

@j2k4 :: if you keep splitting hairs, you will end up cutting your fingers


And if you keep painting with such a broad brush, your Picasso-like talents will never garner critical notice. ;)[/b][/quote]
i&#39;d count that as critique

what&#39;s with the milk and cookies i&#39;ve read that 60% of americans are overweight and up to 20% obese already

the british cops have managed without guns for centuries, and they had so much crime that they started australia.
so i really don&#39;t see the capacity for violent force equating with the level of law and order, &#39;cause england is not known for it&#39;s anarchist lawlessness

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna+17 November 2003 - 09:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna @ 17 November 2003 - 09:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by j2k4@18 November 2003 - 00:21
<!--QuoteBegin-echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:12

@j2k4 :: if you keep splitting hairs, you will end up cutting your fingers


And if you keep painting with such a broad brush, your Picasso-like talents will never garner critical notice. ;)
i&#39;d count that as critique

what&#39;s with the milk and cookies i&#39;ve read that 60% of americans are overweight and up to 20% obese already

the british cops have managed without guns for centuries, and they had so much crime that they started australia.
so i really don&#39;t see the capacity for violent force equating with the level of law and order, &#39;cause england is not known for it&#39;s anarchist lawlessness [/b][/quote]
Okay-

Let&#39;s start from this:

What justifies violence on the part of protesters/demonstrators?

[echidna]

what is at stake :ph34r:

[j2k4]

Take your WTO incident in Seattle, for example.

Why does it matter, anyway?

People will riot over free hotdogs if TV cameras are present. <_<

[echidna]

your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:51
your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free
That was an exercise in obfuscation.

Anent-Seattle?


Edit: And leave Soros out of this-he&#39;s an idiot, and neither a member of this board nor a participant in this thread.

[j2k4]

I can&#39;t help but wonder how far I would (or could, or should) get if, by using your logic, I disrupted societal intercourse or punched a cop or something and justified it by claiming the status of a "revolutionary" while regaling my opponents with stories of "the bad old days" of state religious oppression and unfair taxes? :)

On second thought, it sounds like fun&#33; :P

"Officer-Shall we dance?" :lol:

[echidna]

Originally posted by j2k4+18 November 2003 - 00:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 18 November 2003 - 00:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-echidna@17 November 2003 - 09:51
your proud nation was founded from a riot
oops i mean revolution, asn&#39;t it?

there were no TV cameras then
just a great deal a stake

try doing the sums on conducting business with supply costs for clean air and water
it makes the oil price look very insignificant, compared to the wilderness we don&#39;t cout in our accounts

what&#39;s at stake is in part why soros is putting up so much cash aswell

empithise with what has happened to argentinians in the last five years and you might start to understand

or you could act like the turkey in charge and think that people hate you because your free
That was an exercise in obfuscation.

Anent-Seattle?


Edit: And leave Soros out of this-he&#39;s an idiot, and neither a member of this board nor a participant in this thread.[/b][/quote] what is &#39;Anent-Seattle?&#39;?
Soros as it happens is the main protagonist of the first post of this thread, regardless of your opinion of him

i&#39;m not the one being obscure
it&#39;s time for bed though, so i&#39;ll continue this with you later j2k4, goodnight. :sleeping:
may your morrows find you all well

[j2k4]

Originally posted by echidna@17 November 2003 - 10:13
what is &#39;Anent-Seattle?&#39;?
Soros as it happens is the main protagonist of the first post of this thread, regardless of your opinion of him
[/LIST]
i&#39;m not the one being obscure
it&#39;s time for bed though, so i&#39;ll continue this with you later j2k4, goodnight. :sleeping:
may your morrows find you all well
What of (or "as to", or "regarding") Seattle, then? You brought it up.

Soros is past; we have hijacked this thread (or hadn&#39;t you noticed? ;) ).

Also: I said "obfuscate", not obscure.

Good night, E. :)

[Rat Faced]

Whether either of you are "Right" or "Wrong" is irrelevant to the fact that; although banned by international treaties chemical weapons like tear gas, are routinely used by law enforcement for crowd dispersal...all over the world.

The Gas that the Russians used, that killed 116 people during a hostage situation not so long ago (a fentanyl derivative), was recommended for use by the US Police and Military for Crowd Control; and if that Russian miscalculation hadnt been such bad PR it would be in use now.

There are numerous Deaths on record from the use of Tear Gas, Pepper Sprays and CS Gas (both Directly and Indirectly caused by the chemicals)...all Incapacitating Agents. To therefore describe them as "Non Lethal" is incorrect, and the term should be "Less Lethal"...this is probably why the Military stick by the term "Incapacitating", as this covers all bases without mentioning "Lethal" at all.

However, maybe they are still thinking about it...


"I&#39;m sure US Special Operations command and people dealing with hostage rescues are going to be very interested by the Moscow case and US law enforcement agencies will need to have a very convincing answer as to why they don&#39;t have those capabilities next time there is a hostage situation in the US," Pike pointed out.



Source (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021030-gas1.htm)


Researchers at Pennsylvania State University suggested two years ago that the U.S. military explore using fentanyl and similar drugs to subdue angry crowds. Officials said the researchers recommended that the drug be added to tear gas or pepper spray.

Based on reports from doctors who visited American hostages who were recovering in Moscow hospitals, U.S. officials believe that the gas was an opiate - a drug related to morphine and heroin, Vershbow said. Other U.S. officials identified it as fentanyl, an opiate commonly used in anesthesia and to relieve severe pain.

Fentanyl is a fast-acting narcotic that in large doses can shut down breathing and cause death from lack of oxygen. It is 100 times more potent than morphine.



Source (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-10-29-gas-usat_x.htm)

[j2k4]

Rat-

That&#39;s all well and good, but I was responding to Echidna&#39;s charge such weapons/deterrents are used in spontaneous orgies of oppression by U.S. law enforcement.

Such is not the case; he knows it, and so should you.

I will not either have you lay the use of tear-gas/pepper spray by U.S. law-enforcement side-by-side with what happened in Russia.

Whether recommended by U.S. law enforcement or not, the Russians forgot to read the label that says. "Not for indoor use".

Please do not try to cover all such incidents with the same rhetorical "blanket",

and stop playing this game of moral equivalence.

[Rat Faced]

Im not taking sides here.

The UK police use pepper spray too.

Although i&#39;m sure its abused by a minority, i&#39;m also sure the majority of the Police in both countries use the crap sparingly (although the US Police may use it quicker due to the likelyhood of Arms being used etc.) and not at all unless needed.

As you have pointed out, using it indoors will magnify its affects, as it will not be dispursed as quickly...even here though, im sure that the hostages would rather be hit by a couple of canisters of Tear Gas than a couple of magaizines of bullets (US senario). The likelyhood of a "Lethal Dose" of Tear Gas is much less than a lethal dose of "Lead"....

I&#39;m not getting on a moral highground re: CS, Tear Gas or Pepper Spray.. although they all have risks. I would get on my "Moral Highground" over the use of a fentanyl derivative however...but as the USA hasnt started using this crap then it would hardly be worth it, i&#39;ll leave that to the US citizens if and when :P

For crowd control/dispersment, i still think the Fire Brigade have the best equipment....cold water does wonders to disperse an angry mob :P

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 November 2003 - 13:36
For crowd control/dispersment, i still think the Fire Brigade have the best equipment....cold water does wonders to disperse an angry mob :P
I think this last, regardless of it&#39;s utility, has been dispensed with as "cruel and unusual", since it was used to quell race riots once upon a time, and as such is looked at as "non-PC". ;)

[DL.]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 November 2003 - 17:36

Im not taking sides here.


(although the US Police may use it quicker due to the likelyhood of Arms being used etc.)


would rather be hit by a couple of canisters of Tear Gas than a couple of magaizines of bullets&nbsp; (US senario). The likelyhood of a "Lethal Dose" of Tear Gas is much less than a lethal dose of "Lead"....


How typically UK of you.
It surprises me just how offensive you people have become in such a short time. Or was it just better hidden in the past?

Bigotry and possibly racism is what I read here.

Repeatedly.

I wonder if you might all have been a bit more well mannered if your law enforcement had the use of firearms. It must be wonderfull growing up in a country that allows you to run rampant and rude without the slightest consequence.

It&#39;s no wonder your little islands can no longer dominate the world as you once tried to, with much bloodier results and for a much longer period than anything the US has done.

Context is a bitch isn&#39;t it?

[Rat Faced]

Erm, no...just facts of life, due to the nature of the 2 countries.

Im bloody sure that if it was likely that someone i was aprehending was armed, then i&#39;d be quicker off the mark with pepper spray than if it was extremely unlikely...

I&#39;m quite willing to expand it to include many other countries...however as the discourse was with an American, i was using our 2 countries as reference points. The last point...I was talking of hostages in the US...where Tear Gas is likely to be used, where possible, prior to any SWAT team going in. I think the hostages would rather that happen, dont you?

I think you should re-read the post...

Where does "Racism" come into the equation?

I believe the USA has as mixed a cultural heritage as the UK, with just about every "Race" being well represented there.... :blink:

[J'Pol]

I have a simple view on the matter.

If people are rioting in the streets of my city (whether they call it a demonstration, protest or whatever) I expect the Police to put a stop to it. No matter how many people are involved in the riot they are as naught compared to the size and rights of the innocent John Q Publics who are quietly going about their business. Or at least attempting to.

If their rioting causes the streets to be congested then we need to get them moved quickly. So as not to prevent the emergency services doing what they do. With another nod to John Q who has every right to make his way about the city without fear.


If they are vandalising the place then they lose any sympathy I have for their cause and if the Police need to use weapons to disperse them, then so be it. They are no better than common hooligans and should be treated as such.

If they wish to make a peaceful demonstration, working in co-operation with the local authorities and the Police, then more power to their elbow I say.

My bottom line, if they act like reasonable people, treat them as such. If they act like thugs ....

[j2k4]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 November 2003 - 17:30
I have a simple view on the matter.

If people are rioting in the streets of my city (whether they call it a demonstration, protest or whatever) I expect the Police to put a stop to it. No matter how many people are involved in the riot they are as naught compared to the size and rights of the innocent John Q Publics who are quietly going about their business. Or at least attempting to.

If their rioting causes the streets to be congested then we need to get them moved quickly. So as not to prevent the emergency services doing what they do. With another nod to John Q who has every right to make his way about the city without fear.


If they are vandalising the place then they lose any sympathy I have for their cause and if the Police need to use weapons to disperse them, then so be it. They are no better than common hooligans and should be treated as such.

If they wish to make a peaceful demonstration, working in co-operation with the local authorities and the Police, then more power to their elbow I say.

My bottom line, if they act like reasonable people, treat them as such. If they act like thugs ....
A simple view indeed, and a paragon of reason.

Thank you, J&#39;Pol. ;)

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by DL.@18 November 2003 - 04:10
How typically UK of you.
It surprises me just how offensive you people have become in such a short time. Or was it just better hidden in the past?

Bigotry and possibly racism is what I read here.

Repeatedly.

I wonder if you might all have been a bit more well mannered if your law enforcement had the use of firearms. It must be wonderfull growing up in a country that allows you to run rampant and rude without the slightest consequence.

It&#39;s no wonder your little islands can no longer dominate the world as you once tried to, with much bloodier results and for a much longer period than anything the US has done.

Context is a bitch isn&#39;t it?
I&#39;m always wary of posts that begin with lines like "I don&#39;t want to offend anyone here" as they invariably go on to do just that.

Then along comes an idiot calling himself DL. His first comment is "How typically UK of you", then goes on to run the whole of the UK down.

He then goes on to say "Bigotry and possibly racism is what I read here. " That&#39;s right you arsehole, from you


It must be wonderfull growing up in a country that allows you to run rampant and rude without the slightest consequence.
Yes thank you, it is, it&#39;s called Freedom of Speech.


It&#39;s no wonder your little islands can no longer dominate the world as you once tried to, with much bloodier results and for a much longer period than anything the US has done.
No comment needed there&#33;


Context is a bitch isn&#39;t it?
That&#39;s right, irony is too eh?

This forum has plenty of intelligent, helpful and likeable Americans who are quite capable of discussing and defending their ideals and their country, they don&#39;t need idiots like you.




:)

[DL.]

A little reversal goes a long way. Got a mirror handy? Oh you&#39;re a wonderfull representative&#33;

Very much loved here :lol:

You sir or madam are exactly what I was refering to, rude and proud of it by your own admission.

Actualy, we do have one thing in common.

Yes, when I come across people like you, I too wish all cats had been killed. Before bringing the rat population and bubonic plague under control so many years ago. ;)

[Billy_Dean]

I&#39;m rude you prick, go read your own posts&#33; :o

I wonder how many of your fellow countrymen will come and defend you. :lol: :lol:





:)

[DL.]

About as many as might defend you I suspect. :)

We aren&#39;t too different in that respect then are we?

Anyway,

On the topic of Bush, I don&#39;t recall him being a part of your political system.
I can live with it if he is reelected. You all may not like the way he gets things done but at least he is making the effort.
Maybe it would have been more honest to come right out and say there was an absolute need to position themselves strategically in the arab world before it got even more out of control instead of the reasons they did use. That would have been politically incorrect though wouldn&#39;t it? Where&#39;s your freedom of speech when it&#39;s worth something?

1942 saw the US taking a lot of shit as well. For not coming to the rescue of the world sooner.
Now you bitch and complain when we act preemptively. What are we to do? <_<

[Billy_Dean]

The US was wrong not to join WW2 in 1939 when the rest of the free world stood up to Hitler. But selling arms to both sides was much more profitable wasn&#39;t it?

If the US wants to act preemptively, as you put it, they should say so, not make up a bunch of lies.



:)

[DL.]

Sometimes the only way to advance is under cover of dark. Or in this case, a smoke screen ;)

Either way, the dirty work is done. Isn&#39;t it time for everyone else to take some responsibility and admit it was in the worlds best interest?
If you thought communist Russia was scary, just imagine nuclear fundamentalists. Or worse.
Well you don&#39; have to imagine too hard, several of Iraq&#39;s neighbors are there now.

Trashing your allies on a daily basis really isn&#39;t a good idea even if you don&#39;t directly have to deal with the consequences later. There may come a day.....

[Billy_Dean]

How do you make the connection between Iraq and nuclear terrorists?

The US went into Iraq because they are about to be kicked out of Saudi Arabia. This incursion was about oil.

If you were to make a list of the world&#39;s most dangerous countries, Iraq would not be at the top of the list. They threatened no-one. Why was the US in such a rush to go in when there were weapons inspectors in there? Was it because they knew they would find no WMD?

In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them. But just a minute, they&#39;ve got an army, navy and air force haven&#39;t they? Unlike Iraq.

The US, Australia and UK got themselves into this mess, you get yourselves out of it.



:)

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them. But just a minute, they&#39;ve got an army, navy and air force haven&#39;t they? Unlike Iraq.

...the second most dangerous country in the world I would say. :P

[Billy_Dean]

Originally posted by barbarossa+18 November 2003 - 20:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (barbarossa @ 18 November 2003 - 20:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
In the meantime, the most dangerous country in the world, North Korea, has developed nuclear weapons, and has threatened to use them.&nbsp; But just a minute, they've got an army, navy and air force haven't they?&nbsp; Unlike Iraq.

...the second most dangerous country in the world I would say. :P [/b][/quote]
I stand corrected. ;)


:)

[ilw]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 09:16
But just a minute, [N. Korea] they&#39;ve got an army, navy and air force haven&#39;t they?
Their geographical position and possible nuclear capability are a much more important factor than their measly army, navy and air force.

[Barbarossa]

STATE OF PARANOIA Nov 16 2003



By Chris Mclaughlin And Stephen Martin


THEY&#39;RE changing the guard at Buckingham Palace...but instead of bearskins, ceremonial swords and red jackets, this lot will be wearing grey suits with suspicious bulges under their arms and talking into their cuff-links.

When the George Bush circus rolls into town this week, London will have seen nothing like it.

Whole streets will be blocked off for the paranoid President and his incredible entourage - and thousands of motorists left fuming in the capital&#39;s biggest security operation ever. And, not content with treating Britain like the 51st State of the Union, ultra-cautious American security chiefs are even set to take over the Houses of Parliament. The incredible security operation for the four-day State visit is costing British taxpayers more than £4million - while the US is forking out a mind-boggling £15million for it.

And the Americans are being given everything they&#39;ve asked for as Bush becomes the first US President to be given a State visit to the UK since Woodrow Wilson after World War I in 1918.

Scotland Yard has cancelled all police leave and the 700 American secret service spooks over here with Mr Bush have even been told they can shoot on sight at the slightest danger and claim diplomatic immunity from prosecution if they do. The operation will swing into action on Tuesday when Mr Bush flies into Heathrow in Air Force One - the £112million Presidential plane. After being given a formal welcome by Prince Charles, he will be swept away in his armour-plated limo in a convoy of 20 cars and "war wagons" freighted into Britain last week.

The paranoia is such that parts of his visit are being kept secret.

We know he is due to address the joint Houses of Parliament ... but we can&#39;t tell you when.

We know his staff have taken more than 900 hotel rooms ... but we can&#39;t tell you where.

And if lots of people seem glad to see him, don&#39;t be surprised. "Crowd builders" are sent out to ensure he is always addressing cheerful, cheering throngs of people - which means anti-war protesters are being kept well away.

More than 100,000 demonstrators are expected to march through London on Thursday against the war in Iraq - but have been banned from going near Parliament or Downing Street.

Their leaders last night accused the police of bowing to American paranoia in keeping them away.

Many MPs are not happy either after being told they may have limited access to Parliament or may not even be able to get there at all while Mr Bush makes his "secret" visit there to address the Lords and Commons.

One said: "If the Speaker allows this virtual takeover of Parliament by a foreign country he will forever be remembered for surrendering the rights of Parliament - and therefore the nation." We do know the President and wife Laura will stay at Buckingham Palace where a State Banquet will be held on Wednesday evening. Earlier in the day he will give a speech at London&#39;s Banqueting House and visit the memorial to the British victims of September 11. On Thursday his schedule includes visits to Westminster Abbey and Downing Street for talks with Tony Blair.

But plans for a procession along The Mall with the Queen - normally a key part of a State visit - have been scrapped because of security fears. The idea was ruled out as a "USR" - unacceptable security risk.

The visit has taken more than three months of detailed planning. A team of 12 Presidential aides first flew to London for a "site survey" to check out all the places he&#39;ll be visiting and routes to get there. They included a doctor who assessed which hospitals to use in case of emergency and a photographer who took pictures of all venues for security staff to study.

Six weeks ago, 20 aides arrived to begin polishing the plans. The schedule for the Presidential appearances was finalised - and the aides even worked out the best angles for the TV news crews.

Last week spooks commandeered a local radio frequency to start setting up equipment for scrambling messages. They brought over their own generators in case of power cuts.

Before Mr Bush arrives anywhere, surveillance specialists will sweep all the rooms for bugging devices.

Meanwhile, secret service agents will be driving along all the roads the motorcade will use, to make sure there is enough room for the huge vehicles to turn in if they need to - and that there are enough escape routes.

Lists have even been drawn of who can go into lifts or corridors with the President - and who can&#39;t. Schedules and timetables are honed until every minute of his day is accounted for.

Last night a former Presidential bodyguard, Bill Pickles, said: "The thing with the secret service is we don&#39;t wait for something to happen, then react. We try to anticipate and head it off.

"We study every assassination attempt that&#39;s made in the world. We have a pretty good idea of how an assassination attempt may happen and the type of person behind it.

"Of course, being abroad makes it more difficult. We have incredibly good relations with the British police and authorities, but we are so completely different in our view of the world and the levels of security required."

He was amazed when the Queen visited Kentucky to see thoroughbred horses in the 1980s. "She travelled with one Scotland Yard protection officer&#33;"

It certainly won&#39;t be like that this week...

[email protected]

HIS ITINERARY

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19: Ceremonial welcome at Buckingham Palace. State banquet in evening at Palace, with guests including Tony Blair.

THURSDAY: Bush to lay wreath at The Tomb of the Unknown Warrior at Westminster Abbey. Lunch with Blair. Bush to host banquet for Queen.

FRIDAY: President expected to visit North-East England with Blair before flying home.

THE LIMOS

THE President&#39;s limo, known by its secret service call sign of Stagecoach, is a custom-built £2million Cadillac De Ville. One of four bought by the White House in 2001, it was freighted into Britain by a C17 cargo aircraft last week.

The limo is 22ft-long - the length of a London bus. It includes a fully-armoured perimeter and firewall, with blast shields in the floor and heavy-duty suspension, brakes and steering.

The president rides with the "football", a briefcase carried by a military aide which contains the launch codes for America&#39;s nuclear arsenal.

He insists on the car being stocked with bottles of still water and Diet Coke. A special foam inside the armoured petrol tank prevents explosions, while steel plates inside the tyres enable the car to speed away at 65mph with all four tyres shredded.

A night vision infrared-detection system is included to check for missile attack.

The vehicle interior boasts seven-passenger seating with improved comfort and visibility for all occupants.

There is a rear-seat executive package with a concealed foldaway desktop for holding meetings.

There is even a 10-disc CD player and the presidential seal is imprinted on each of the rear doors. It carries a Washington DC registration plate.

The motorcade will include identical-looking limos each carrying six or seven of the President&#39;s most important advisers and security officials. The first six limos are known in spook-speak as "the Secure Package".

The code word for the President himself is POTUS (President of the United States).

There will also be a blacked-out decoy limo, flying the Stars and Stripes from the front wing.

It is packed with armed secret service agents wired up through earpieces to the communications wagon following four vehicles behind.

WAR WAGONS

THE first War Wagon is a black Chevrolet suburban. Following behind the limos are up to four more identical War Wagons and a single black estate car carrying a mounted machine gun. Like the other vehicles, they were flown in last week.

The wagons are armoured similarly to the presidential limousine. The agents inside, members of the elite Presidential Protection Department&#39;s Counter Assault Team, carry Sig Sauer P229 pistols, supplemented by Remington shotguns and submachine guns. One of the wagons is likely to be equipped with Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.

GUARDS

PEOPLE-carriers with red and blue lights on the roofs will carry yet more guards talking feverishly into the radios hidden in their coat cuffs. Agents work in three teams and do eight-hour shifts, ensuring 24-hour protection for the President and his wife Laura. Minibuses carry all the computers, fax machines and phone lines required to operate the White House on the move.

DEATH WATCH

A "DEATH watch" van records every moment of the event, keeping an eye out for possible terrorists. It has a TV cameraman on board in case of an assassination attempt.

Overhead fly helicopters ready to rescue the President in an emergency. He will be guarded by a US Marine Corps Sikorsky Sea King helicopter and a VIP version of the White Hawk helicopter. An exclusion zone prevents any other aircraft entering airspace near the President.

AMBULANCE

THE ambulance carries a surgeon, nurses, plasma banks and a supply of the President&#39;s blood type. It has state-of-the-art resuscitation gear.

SPOOKS

WHEN the motorcade sets off dozens of police cars and motorcycles empty the roads ahead.

Seven hundred US agents protect the President as a team of sniffer dogs work through waiting crowds checking for explosives.

Plain-clothes agents mingle with passers-by and demonstrators. Snipers prepare to open fire.

GETTING HERE

THE President and his entourage will travel from Washington&#39;s Andrews Air Force base in two specially-adapted Boeing 747-200s.

The plane Bush flies in is Air Force One - a 30-year tradition going back to President Kennedy. Standing five storeys high and weighing 400 tons, Air Force One can provide the president, his closest aides and security personnel with up to 2,000 meals a trip, and more than 85 phone lines. The

£112million plane has a crew of 23 and 4,000sq ft of space containing sleeping quarters, showers, a stateroom, TVs, a medical room with operating facilities, two kitchens, and a communications centre. It flies 6,200 miles on one tank of fuel, can be refuelled in mid-air and carries 35 days&#39; of supplies in case of nuclear war.

It flies higher than commercial jets, in its own exclusion zone, and has its own missile defences. It costs £33,000 an hour to run, compared to about £4,300 for a commercial 747.

Each plane is kitted out in luxury trim. The presidential seal is emblazoned on the seatbelt buckles, pillows, mugs, napkins and even his shaving kit. The second plane carries white house staff and secret service officials. A third chartered jumbo carries diplomatic staff and other flunkeys.



This was in the Sunday Mirror (a "news"paper over here). Some of this stuff (if true) is quite literally Un-Be-Lievable. :unsure: :blink:

[j2k4]

I suppose this would be a good time to wish all my U.K. brethren a happy protest, with the impending Bush visit.

Watch your behavior, now-remember: KLite protesters are amongst the most well-behaved on earth.

Although I certainly wouldn&#39;t be protesting Bush, I must insist those of you who do remember you are representing me, too, at least insofar as your conduct is concerned. :)

[Billy_Dean]

I wasn&#39;t going to mention this, but in all fairness I guess I should. I was once arrested for throwing rocks through the windows of the US embassy in London. There&#33;

In defence I can only say that at the time we believed that radicalism and violence was the only way to force the US to withdraw from Vietnam. I also believe we played a part in bringing that about, and in so doing, saved many thousands of lives, Vietnamese, and American.

I now see that violence is wrong, and hope it does not occur in England. Alas, it will, as there are still those who think like I did.


:)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 13:43
In defence I can only say that at the time we believed that radicalism and violence was the only way to force the US to withdraw from Vietnam.&nbsp; I also believe we played a part in bringing that about, and in so doing, saved many thousands of lives, Vietnamese, and American.


Just wondering, Billy:

Do you think the Pol Pot-led Cambodian genocide, which cost about 1.7 million lives, would have occurred had the U.S. been free to stay and actually fight the war, instead of having U.S. policy waver in the face of protests such as yours?

Does your feeling of having "played a part in bringing that about" include Pol Pot&#39;s actions?

Honest question; not trying to provoke. ;)

[Billy_Dean]

Our concerns were that they should never have been in Vietnam in the first place. We, the allies, did a deal with the freedom fighters during WW2, we asked them to fight the japs to stop or hinder their advance through that part of the world. In return, we promised them independance from France, a cruel occupier, and free elections. They fought and died on our side, 1000&#39;s of them. We then reneged on the deal. They then fought for what was rightfully theirs. The US excuse was "The Domino Effect", what happened to that?

As for Cambodia, the US bombing of that country, denied for many years, caused the instability that allowed Pol Pot to do what he did. And who was it that finally stopped him and saved the country? Vietnam.


:)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@18 November 2003 - 14:39
Our concerns were that they should never have been in Vietnam in the first place. We, the allies, did a deal with the freedom fighters during WW2, we asked them to fight the japs to stop or hinder their advance through that part of the world. In return, we promised them independance from France, a cruel occupier, and free elections. They fought and died on our side, 1000&#39;s of them. We then reneged on the deal. They then fought for what was rightfully theirs. The US excuse was "The Domino Effect", what happened to that?

As for Cambodia, the US bombing of that country, denied for many years, caused the instability that allowed Pol Pot to do what he did. And who was it that finally stopped him and saved the country? Vietnam.


:)
The "Domino Effect" (a legitimate concern, poorly expressed) aside, admitting the horrible toll the bombing took on the Cambodian&#39;s land, I don&#39;t think Pol Pot would have acted quite so freely had we stayed.

It surely wasn&#39;t a perfectly executed strategy; such was the effect of public sentiment on foreign policy.

Gotta go to work now.

:)

[hobbes]

STATE OF PARANOIA Nov 16 2003


After being given a formal welcome by Prince Charles, he will be swept away in his armour-plated limo in a convoy of 20 cars and "war wagons" freighted into Britain last week.

I would imagine that it will Price Charles SWEEPING Bush away for a little right rogering. Maybe Tony Blair will secretly join them and Bush can play the role of Lucky Pierre. It all seems a bit excessive for an afternoon of passion.




More than 100,000 demonstrators are expected to march through London on Thursday against the war in Iraq....

Paranoia :a tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrustfulness of others

Hmmm, 100,000 demonstrators, lots of time to plan any sort of attack, his country occupies an Islamic country and he is the number 1 assassination target in the world.

Paranoid, hardly. At stitch in time....., I would say. You cannot imagine the political mess that would come from his assassination or even an unsuccessful attempt.

Perhaps the article should have been named, "Wow, look at all the cool shit Bush has" or would that not be appropriate.





Last night a former Presidential bodyguard, Bill Pickles, said: "The thing with the secret service is we don&#39;t wait for something to happen, then react...

Pickles, Pickles he&#39;s our man, if he can&#39;t do it, nobody can&#33; Yeahhhhhhh, Pickles&#33;
http://www.calstatela.edu/univ/athletic/images/other/cheerleaders.jpg

May I suggest a name change to something more confidence building, perhaps "Gerkin".


THE LIMOS
He insists on the car being stocked with bottles of still water and Diet Coke. A special foam inside the armoured petrol tank prevents explosions

Still water run deep, yes it do ohhh, ohhh yeah.....Like a bridge over troubled waters. We Americans are partial to the stuff because it soothes the soul. I would imagine any Brit worth his salt would prefer his water "shaken not stirred".

Since men don&#39;t drink "diet beverages", I guess it will be for the Mrs. It will be impregnated with a foam that will prevent it from spouting a geyser of cola if the can were to be mistakenly shaken.



The first six limos are known in spook-speak as the Secure Package (http://www.lockmeup.com/cb/experiences/chastity-tube-collage.jpg)

.


WAR WAGONS
THE first War Wagon is a black Chevrolet suburban.

Surely this is an error, the Ford Focus, standard factory edition, has been a tradition for some 50 years. Nothing says "bad ass war wagon" like a "suburban"






AMBULANCE

It has state-of-the-art resuscitation gear.

Yes, an oxygen mask and a pair of hands.


SPOOKS

http://www.sitedocurioso.hpg.ig.com.br/scooby-doo.jpg
For this reason all security officers will be paid in Scooby snacks.





It costs £33,000 an hour to run, compared to about £4,300 for a commercial 747.

A third chartered jumbo carries diplomatic staff and other flunkeys

Yes, this is just wasteful. Continental has some great specials going on right now and with layovers in just St Louis and NYC.

But to keep costs down, the President will only receive one package of pretzels during his flight and will not be allowed to view movies from the "adult selections" as they are &#036;2.00 more than the regulars.

"Flunkies" - Don&#39;t you means his "posse"?


Anyway, maybe next time they can just have a cybervisit, held in some supersecret on-line chatroom, perhaps Soulseek.


edit- multiple edits due to local power failures.

[J'Pol]

A head of a foreign state is visiting our country. He will be afforded all of the hospitality and security that the people of the UK, through their Government can muster. This is only right and proper. The citizens of the USA, or at least some of them, may not approve of him. However the way we treat him is the way we treat your nation. You may not like it, but it is true. He is, to all intents and purposes, the USA visiting the UK

If people chose to object to this then it is their right to do so. I believe any American citizen would fully support and indeed encourage this right. Is it not the first amendment you made to your own constitution. Is it not a right that you hold dear. Freedom of expression.

So long as any demonstration is reasonable and lawful then no right thinking person should object to this. However if it is not then our Police will act, they will not as people like to suggest, provoke a reaction. It is the last thing they want. A success for them is a totally quiet and peaceful day. However they will not allow a small minority of the population of the UK speak for all of us by insulting the USA.

I welcome the President to our shores and hope that his stay is a good one and that it helps to cement our relationship.

Hobbes - if this makes me a "Homo" in your eyes, so be it.

[Rat Faced]

So you agree that every other President to visit should have been given a "State" welcome....the last one to receive a "State" welcome was before my Grandad was born.

If they had, i would agree with you...but this mongol is being given special treatment, even his father didnt get this.

Both Blaire and Bush are playing every card they can drag out...and i think it may backfire.

We never had a "State" visit for Carter or Clinton, both of which visited the UK and the North East of England..a regular stopover for US Presidents as the original Washington is here (The Town he was named after :P )

Clinton especially, despite the tendancy for his trousers to fall down, was a much more respected figure in the world at large as a Peace Maker, than Bush will ever be.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@19 November 2003 - 01:53
So you agree that every other President to visit should have been given a "State" welcome....the last one to receive a "State" welcome was before my Grandad was born.

If they had, i would agree with you...but this mongol is being given special treatment, even his father didnt get this.

Both Blaire and Bush are playing every card they can drag out...and i think it may backfire.

We never had a "State" visit for Carter or Clinton, both of which visited the UK and the North East of England..a regular stopover for US Presidents as the original Washington is here (The Town he was named after :P )

Clinton especially, despite the tendancy for his trousers to fall down, was a much more respected figure in the world at large as a Peace Maker, than Bush will ever be.
I cannot take your post seriously when you add an e to the name of our own Prime Minister.

Why are you describing the elected Head of State of the USA as a Mongol - what does that mean ?

Is this in fact a serious post, or are you having a laugh ?

There are too many offensive references in your post for me to take it as anything other than a parody.

[MediaSlayer]

blair? this is the only blair i know
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photos/liswhe04-1.jpg
;) :) :) <_< :D

[MagicNakor]

It likely would be different if Bush wasn&#39;t going on a State visit. A recent article in my newspaper speculated that it&#39;s all for the re-election campaigns. He&#39;s got the footage with the Pope, so now he needs the footage with the Queen.

:ninja:

[echidna]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+19 November 2003 - 12:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 19 November 2003 - 12:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@19 November 2003 - 01:53
So you agree that every other President to visit should have been given a "State" welcome....the last one to receive a "State" welcome was before my Grandad was born.

If they had, i would agree with you...but this mongol is being given special treatment, even his father didnt get this.

Both Blaire and Bush are playing every card they can drag out...and i think it may backfire.

We never had a "State" visit for Carter or Clinton, both of which visited the UK and the North East of England..a regular stopover for US Presidents as the original Washington is here (The Town he was named after :P )

Clinton especially, despite the tendancy for his trousers to fall down, was a much more respected figure in the world at large as a Peace Maker, than Bush will ever be.
I cannot take your post seriously when you add an e to the name of our own Prime Minister.

Why are you describing the elected Head of State of the USA as a Mongol - what does that mean ?

Is this in fact a serious post, or are you having a laugh ?

There are too many offensive references in your post for me to take it as anything other than a parody. [/b][/quote]
i think it may be that the &#39;e&#39; is due to it being right next to &#39;r&#39; [on the left]

i find calling bush a mongol is too flattering,
the mongols did create/conquer the world&#39;s largest land empire
[in bush&#39;s dreams]

@MN :: i like that logic, it makes a lot of sence

staying with lizzy in buk house probably save on the old security bottom line, no other leader stays in buk house? except maybe when other royals ruled europe, does anyone know?