Chaps From Vegetaria.

[J'Pol]

I was wondering what vegetarians fed their pets.

Particularly if the particular pet would normally be a carnivore, or indeed live on insects etc.

If you are from the great state of Vegetaria, or are related to or know someone who is perhaps you could enlighten me.

[bigboab]

Maybe Snny could be of help here JP. :D

[3rd gen noob]

Originally posted by bigboab@15 November 2003 - 19:40
Maybe Snny could be of help here JP. :D
or lamsey :rolleyes:

[summerlinda]

You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?

[TheDave]

ive never heard it before

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 20:41
You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?
Not a thing Linda, If I have asked before was it possibly during an apple period. The old mind does not recall as well nowadays, particularly in relation to Friday and Saturday nights.

I just wonder, because vegetarians can be quite sanctimonious. In my experience those who are vegetarian for health reasons don&#39;t really preach. However Vegetarians of "conscience" can be a wee bit too moral high ground for me.

I genuinely apologise if I am repeating this and it offends you.

[summerlinda]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+15 November 2003 - 20:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol &#064; 15 November 2003 - 20:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 20:41
You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?
Not a thing Linda, If I have asked before was it possibly during an apple period. The old mind does not recall as well nowadays, particularly in relation to Friday and Saturday nights.

I just wonder, because vegetarians can be quite sanctimonious. In my experience those who are vegetarian for health reasons don&#39;t really preach. However Vegetarians of "conscience" can be a wee bit too moral high ground for me.

I genuinely apologise if I am repeating this and it offends you. [/b][/quote]
Whats with this vegetarian obsession of yours?
Why do you wanna know?
Why keep bugging us? Because thats what it is.

I&#39;m 100% sure you asked it before, although i cant find the thread.

So, yes it offends me, not that you care or should care, i&#39;m reading this thread out of my own free will, and reply out of my own free will while i probably should have skipped it. But i didnt, so its my own fault.

Gr. Linda
[Vegetarian of "conscience"]

Edit: A link to the thread where you did ask it, to make sure people dont think i&#39;m a liar ---&#62; here (http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?showtopic=47420&st=45)

[Lamsey]

Lady, my sister&#39;s dog (who we take care of) eats dog meat, because my parents choose to buy her dog meat. If I had my way, she&#39;d be eating 100% vegetarian food, but unfortunately it&#39;s not up to me :(

[TheDave]

Originally posted by Lamsey@15 November 2003 - 20:12
Lady, my sister&#39;s dog (who we take care of) eats dog meat, because my parents choose to buy her dog meat. If I had my way, she&#39;d be eating 100% vegetarian food, but unfortunately it&#39;s not up to me :(
seriously?&#33; :lol:

[3rd gen noob]

Originally posted by Lamsey@15 November 2003 - 20:12
If I had my way, she&#39;d be eating 100% vegetarian food, but unfortunately it&#39;s not up to me :(
insanity

[Darth Sushi]

Originally posted by Lamsey@15 November 2003 - 21:12
Lady, my sister&#39;s dog (who we take care of) eats dog meat, because my parents choose to buy her dog meat. If I had my way, she&#39;d be eating 100% vegetarian food, but unfortunately it&#39;s not up to me :(
Dog cannibal? :lol: Is this a brand of dog food? :blink:

[DarthInsinuate]

http://www.vegetariandogs.com/

apparently it is possible to feed a dog something that isn&#39;t in its natural diet

[Darth Sushi]

Originally posted by DarthInsinuate@15 November 2003 - 21:50
http://www.vegetariandogs.com/

apparently it is possible to feed a dog something that isn&#39;t in its natural diet
:blink: What&#39;s next? Cats and dogs living together?

[the_faceman]

Interesting link written by a vegetarian. He isn&#39;t one-sided in any way, but makes it pretty clear that it&#39;s not a great idea to feed your pet a strict vegetarian diet.

Dr. Russel Swift, DVM, Classical Homeopath. (http://www.craftycreatures.com/forferretsonly/ferretschool_vegetarianfeeding.html)


So why do a growing number of people recommend vegetarian diets for dogs and cats? There are several reasons:

1) Ignorance of their true nature and needs

2) Having an agenda to convert all people and animals to vegetarianism for animals rights reasons

3) Capitalizing monetarily on people following #2.

4) Knowing an animal that has done well on a vegetarian diet


There is much more to the article if you follow the link, but no point pasting a huge chunk of text here.

Personally, i think it&#39;s wrong to feed a cat or dog anything other than the equivalent of what would be their natural diet in the wild, which would almost certainly include meat. Biologically, they just aren&#39;t made for it.

Whether humans are &#39;designed&#39; to be vegetarian is debatable, but our bodies definitely support the option, as the many perfectly healthy vegetarians living today and in the past have proven.

We may have the conscience to make the decision not to consume meat, but a dog or cat live more on instinct, and i&#39;m sure they don&#39;t have a problem with living on a balanced diet. It&#39;s not our place to decide for them, and if you feel strongly on the matter you should offer two bowls of food to your pets, one containing meat, the other strictly vegetarian, and allow them to decide. I&#39;m almost certain they would eat the bowl containing meat first (and would probably finish off the other bowl too). No morals these damn animals&#33; lol

[the_faceman]

Originally posted by DarthInsinuate@15 November 2003 - 21:50
http://www.vegetariandogs.com/

apparently it is possible to feed a dog something that isn&#39;t in its natural diet
and look how happy it makes them....
http://www.vegetariandogs.com/img.why-betty.jpg
http://www.vegetariandogs.com/img.intro-elvis.jpg

(pictures taken from that site).

My personal opinion, one day on a mixed meat & veg diet and these dogs would be more like Rex here...

http://www.lourussophotography.com/images/models_a_c/vasha/happy_dog/happy_dog_5.jpg

[hobbes]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+15 November 2003 - 20:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol &#064; 15 November 2003 - 20:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 20:41
You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?
Not a thing Linda, If I have asked before was it possibly during an apple period. The old mind does not recall as well nowadays, particularly in relation to Friday and Saturday nights.

I just wonder, because vegetarians can be quite sanctimonious. In my experience those who are vegetarian for health reasons don&#39;t really preach. However Vegetarians of "conscience" can be a wee bit too moral high ground for me.

I genuinely apologise if I am repeating this and it offends you.[/b][/quote]
Exactly&#33; They come off as "a bit superior and enlightened", when in fact, I would claim the opposite to be the case.

Humans are highly inefficient in converting plant matter into usable energy. We simply do not have the enzymes to breakdown the major structural components of the plant cell walls. We are well suited to the breakdown of animal products and that is why such a diet is called "low residue" vs the large bulky stools of vegetarians. Vegetarians basically just poop it all out.

Only in a world filled with supermarkets and huge surpluses of food is the vegetarian lifestyle feasible. In the those countries where food is in short supply, for whatever reason (usually political), any animals they can acquire are worth more than money. Many even attempt to supplement their diets with rats and other local vermin, highlighting the need for animal proteins.


As to the philsophy that people refuse to eat certain meats because the animal was raised in a cruel manner to preserve "tenderness" and such, I laud you for this. One of the problems of a capitalist system is that ranchers are all competing to get the most payback for their limited resources, so they confine their animals and pump them full of steroids and antibiotics. This is where society must step in and set the bar for what type of treatment is allowable and create agencies to enforce these guidelines.


Finally, for those who feel that "all life" has an equal right to exist, I agree to a point. Hunting for trophies is disrespectful to nature. We should not kill simply for pleasure (although hunting seasons are useful to thin out excess herbivores and most hunters do butcher their kills for consumption).

But, should I let ants over-run my house, wasps swarm in my attic and harbor mites in my hair? If I am sick, should I kill those innocent microrganisms with antibiotics?

Where do we draw the line? I think it becomes difficult for people when they look at a little bunny. They place a human awareness in it, which simply does not exist. As a former rabbit and cow owner, I can attest to the fact that these animals act more out of primitive reflexes than cerebral ponderings.

For instance, if you were a rabbit and you were chased by a fox, if you escaped you would start thinking about how to avoid the fox. You would live in terror. Actual rabbits just put their heads down and start chewing grass as if nothing has ever happened once the fox goes away.
I watched one of my rabbits die right in front of the other. I got so angry because the observing rabbit took no notice. I put a corn chip on the body of the dead bunny and watched its companion of 5 years grab the chip and eat it off the corpse. (It was a sad day for me, I only did the chip thing just test how "aware" the surviving rabbit was.) He was not assessing the situation, the actions of the dying rabbit were not something that triggered his innate reflexes. This supported my earlier observations growing up, that cows are nothing more than food processors for grass.

I would submit that, at times, herbivores appear to exhibit individualistic human-like behavior, but most of this is as cerebral as your knee kicking when I hit your tendon with a reflex hammer. A simple neural reflex arc, nothing more.



This is why I consider the concept that "all life" as being equal to be incorrect. Although, I do think that nature and all living entities should be treated respectfully.

What Mother Nature teaches us is that there is a unique role for all living entities and we, by acting in accordance with our abilites, maintain her checks and balances. We were born to be omnivores, according to our biochemistry, not herbivores, and that is how we should live, if we want to listen to Mother Nature.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by hobbes+15 November 2003 - 22:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 15 November 2003 - 22:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 November 2003 - 20:47
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 20:41
You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?
Not a thing Linda, If I have asked before was it possibly during an apple period. The old mind does not recall as well nowadays, particularly in relation to Friday and Saturday nights.

I just wonder, because vegetarians can be quite sanctimonious. In my experience those who are vegetarian for health reasons don&#39;t really preach. However Vegetarians of "conscience" can be a wee bit too moral high ground for me.

I genuinely apologise if I am repeating this and it offends you.
Exactly&#33; They come off as "a bit superior and enlightened", when in fact, I would claim the opposite to be the case.

Humans are highly inefficient in converting plant matter into usable energy. We simply do not have the enzymes to breakdown the major structural components of the plant cell walls. We are well suited to the breakdown of animal products and that is why such a diet is called "low residue" vs the large bulky stools of vegetarians. Vegetarians basically just poop it all out.

Only in a world filled with supermarkets and huge surpluses of food is the vegetarian lifestyle feasible. In the those countries where food is in short supply, for whatever reason (usually political), any animals they can acquire are worth more than money. Many even attempt to supplement their diets with rats and other local vermin, highlighting the need for animal proteins.


As to the philsophy that people refuse to eat certain meats because the animal was raised in a cruel manner to preserve "tenderness" and such, I laud you for this. One of the problems of a capitalist system is that ranchers are all competing to get the most payback for their limited resources, so they confine their animals and pump them full of steroids and antibiotics. This is where society must step in and set the bar for what type of treatment is allowable and create agencies to enforce these guidelines.


Finally, for those who feel that "all life" has an equal right to exist, I agree to a point. Hunting for trophies is disrespectful to nature. We should not kill simply for pleasure (although hunting seasons are useful to thin out excess herbivores and most hunters do butcher their kills for consumption).

But, should I let ants over-run my house, wasps swarm in my attic and harbor mites in my hair? If I am sick, should I kill those innocent microrganisms with antibiotics?

Where do we draw the line? I think it becomes difficult for people when they look at a little bunny. They place a human awareness in it, which simply does not exist. As a former rabbit and cow owner, I can attest to the fact that these animals act more out of primitive reflexes than cerebral ponderings.

For instance, if you were a rabbit and you were chased by a fox, if you escaped you would start thinking about how to avoid the fox. You would live in terror. Actual rabbits just put their heads down and start chewing grass as if nothing has ever happened once the fox goes away.
I watched one of my rabbits die right in front of the other. I got so angry because the observing rabbit took no notice. I put a corn chip on the body of the dead bunny and watched its companion of 5 years grab the chip and eat it off the corpse. (It was a sad day for me, I only did the chip thing just test how "aware" the surviving rabbit was.) He was not assessing the situation, the actions of the dying rabbit were not something that triggered his innate reflexes. This supported my earlier observations growing up, that cows are nothing more than food processors for grass.

I would submit that, at times, herbivores appear to exhibit individualistic human-like behavior, but most of this is as cerebral as your knee kicking when I hit your tendon with a reflex hammer. A simple neural reflex arc, nothing more.



This is why I consider the concept that "all life" as being equal to be incorrect. Although, I do think that nature and all living entities should be treated respectfully.

What Mother Nature teaches us is that there is a unique role for all living entities and we, by acting in accordance with our abilites, maintain her checks and balances. We were born to be omnivores, according to our biochemistry, not herbivores, and that is how we should live, if we want to listen to Mother Nature. [/b][/quote]
What a fine post, a bloody fine post. One of your best

Great points, well presented.

I doff my cap to you sir. Only figuratively I&#39;m afraid but that will have to do.

Would you go as far as to say that any vegetarian who does not provide their pet dog with a proper, balanced, natural diet was being cruel. In the same way as the very animal breeders and techniques that they object to.

[summerlinda]

Originally posted by hobbes+15 November 2003 - 22:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 15 November 2003 - 22:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 November 2003 - 20:47
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 20:41
You have asked this before <_<
Its not because you really wanna know, its just for "stoking"
Leave us vegetarians alone, get of our backs, what did we do to you?
Not a thing Linda, If I have asked before was it possibly during an apple period. The old mind does not recall as well nowadays, particularly in relation to Friday and Saturday nights.

I just wonder, because vegetarians can be quite sanctimonious. In my experience those who are vegetarian for health reasons don&#39;t really preach. However Vegetarians of "conscience" can be a wee bit too moral high ground for me.

I genuinely apologise if I am repeating this and it offends you.
Exactly&#33; They come off as "a bit superior and enlightened", when in fact, I would claim the opposite to be the case.

Humans are highly inefficient in converting plant matter into usable energy. We simply do not have the enzymes to breakdown the major structural components of the plant cell walls. We are well suited to the breakdown of animal products and that is why such a diet is called "low residue" vs the large bulky stools of vegetarians. Vegetarians basically just poop it all out.

Only in a world filled with supermarkets and huge surpluses of food is the vegetarian lifestyle feasible. In the those countries where food is in short supply, for whatever reason (usually political), any animals they can acquire are worth more than money. Many even attempt to supplement their diets with rats and other local vermin, highlighting the need for animal proteins.


As to the philsophy that people refuse to eat certain meats because the animal was raised in a cruel manner to preserve "tenderness" and such, I laud you for this. One of the problems of a capitalist system is that ranchers are all competing to get the most payback for their limited resources, so they confine their animals and pump them full of steroids and antibiotics. This is where society must step in and set the bar for what type of treatment is allowable and create agencies to enforce these guidelines.


Finally, for those who feel that "all life" has an equal right to exist, I agree to a point. Hunting for trophies is disrespectful to nature. We should not kill simply for pleasure (although hunting seasons are useful to thin out excess herbivores and most hunters do butcher their kills for consumption).

But, should I let ants over-run my house, wasps swarm in my attic and harbor mites in my hair? If I am sick, should I kill those innocent microrganisms with antibiotics?

Where do we draw the line? I think it becomes difficult for people when they look at a little bunny. They place a human awareness in it, which simply does not exist. As a former rabbit and cow owner, I can attest to the fact that these animals act more out of primitive reflexes than cerebral ponderings.

For instance, if you were a rabbit and you were chased by a fox, if you escaped you would start thinking about how to avoid the fox. You would live in terror. Actual rabbits just put their heads down and start chewing grass as if nothing has ever happened once the fox goes away.
I watched one of my rabbits die right in front of the other. I got so angry because the observing rabbit took no notice. I put a corn chip on the body of the dead bunny and watched its companion of 5 years grab the chip and eat it off the corpse. (It was a sad day for me, I only did the chip thing just test how "aware" the surviving rabbit was.) He was not assessing the situation, the actions of the dying rabbit were not something that triggered his innate reflexes. This supported my earlier observations growing up, that cows are nothing more than food processors for grass.

I would submit that, at times, herbivores appear to exhibit individualistic human-like behavior, but most of this is as cerebral as your knee kicking when I hit your tendon with a reflex hammer. A simple neural reflex arc, nothing more.



This is why I consider the concept that "all life" as being equal to be incorrect. Although, I do think that nature and all living entities should be treated respectfully.

What Mother Nature teaches us is that there is a unique role for all living entities and we, by acting in accordance with our abilites, maintain her checks and balances. We were born to be omnivores, according to our biochemistry, not herbivores, and that is how we should live, if we want to listen to Mother Nature. [/b][/quote]
Lets just say thats your opinion, based on the things you know, you read, you heard and you believe, okay?

Sorry for coming off as superior and enlightened... :blink:

I think this is exactly what JP was aiming at, another useless, veggie discussion, the 10th or something.

We all stand for what we believe in, no-one can change that.

[fugley]

My best friend is a potato&#33; Vegetables have feelings too&#33;

I love animals too in every sense gnorf&#33; I have decided to become an eat buggerallarian&#33; :blink:

[J'Pol]

Linda

What I was aiming at was a serious discussion, on a serious topic. I start that type of thread fairly often (I think).

If other people wish to discuss toilets, genitalia, whatever I really don&#39;t mind as long as they are having fun. It&#39;s just not always my cup of tea.

I think the juxtapositions are interesting.

Either be cruel - as an objection to cruelty.

Or allow your dog to eat meat (because it&#39;s natural) but not your brother.

I cannot see a third way, but find either of those untenable.

[TheDave]

heres my way. eat what you want but dont come crying to me when a cow eats you

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by TheDave@15 November 2003 - 23:16
heres my way. eat what you want but dont come crying to me when a cow eats you
The

Are you a vegetable of some sort.

[TheDave]

no. im in a species that has evolved to eat meat over millions of years.

[summerlinda]

People can show as many results, reports, doctors and scienentists and what not on proving that being vergatarian is un-natural and unhealthy, there are as many or more reports, results and what not that proves that being vegetarian is not unhealty - unnatural etc..... and guess what, i dont care, me personly i&#39;m not doing this because of those reasons. Though I&#39;m healthy as hell, never called in sick, not one single day in my life&#33;

I think people treat animals cruel, than eat them, and thats just plain wrong.
1 little thing i can do about that is stop eating meat and battery eggs etc, so i will.
I would give my life if all animal cruelty would stop forever, i know its easy saying because its not going to happen, but i would.

Its everybody&#39;s own choice, but dont say its unhealthy, because thats not true, and vegetarians are the living examples of that.

I just hope that if people chose to eat meat, they will eat "animal friendly meat" Wouldnt you feel better if you knew that the pig you are eating had a nice life?
Those biological / animal friendly farmers need money too, so why not support them?

I also donate money too an organisation that promotes alternative animal testing for medicin etc, its all ican do, but i&#39;m doing it, at least i try making a difference.

Now you can all shoot me with your big ass English vocabulairs, and come with more scientific prove and what not, i dont care, i can go to sleep with the thought that i was not 100% responsible for ending the life another cruel treated animal.

[J'Pol]

Linda

It is your decision what you do with your life and how you chose to lead it. More power to you for taking such a strong position and defending it so well.

What about feeding pets tho&#39; do you have a policy on that. Liam has told us that his (sister&#39;s) dog is fed meat, tho&#39; he personally would not do so if he had the choice.

[TheDave]

what would happen if there were no preditors in the entire world?

[summerlinda]

I feed my dog regular dogfood and my rats regular ratfood, because there is to little proove againts or pro feeding them in vegetarian way. I&#39;m responsable for ther health so i better be safe then sorry.

Lately there is more knowledge on that subject, but my dog is almost 13 and i dont want to change his diet for obvious reasons.
As far as the rats, they are very unsable as far as their health goes, so i dont wanna take any risks.

As soon as i&#39;m convinced that feeding pets in a veggie way is okay, i will feed my[new] pets that way for sure.

[Skweeky]

well...I used to be a vegetarian, but stopped two years ago because (let&#39;s be honest here), BALANCED vegetarian food is a bit expensive :(

Anyway, now I only eat eggs that come from a farmer who lives next to my sister, he has like 20 chickens, they are fed well and have a lot of room.
I hardly eat meat, but when I do it&#39;s from this old farmer who is a butcher too..

My point is; I like to eat some meat sometimes and I have nothing against if I know the animals were treated well during their lifes.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by Skweeky@15 November 2003 - 22:51
well...I used to be a vegetarian, but stopped two years ago because (let&#39;s be honest here), BALANCED vegetarian food is a bit expensive :(

Anyway, now I only eat eggs that come from a farmer who lives next to my sister, he has like 20 chickens, they are fed well and have a lot of room.
I hardly eat meat, but when I do it&#39;s from this old farmer who is a butcher too..

My point is; I like to eat some meat sometimes and I have nothing against if I know the animals were treated well during their lifes.
Bacon Sandwiches&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[hobbes]

Originally posted by summerlinda@15 November 2003 - 23:32


Now you can all shoot me with your big ass English vocabulairs, and come with more scientific prove and what not, i dont care, i can go to sleep with the thought that i was not 100% responsible for ending the life another cruel treated animal.
Linda,

Don&#39;t you see that my post supported what you do 100%. I hope you are reading posts with a your mind open to enlightenment, rather than skimming posts thinking about how to defend your point.

I am here to state my position and support it with evidence, but I am also here to see if someone might be able to show me that I am misguided.


From Hobbes 1st post:

As to the philsophy that people refuse to eat certain meats because the animal was raised in a cruel manner to preserve "tenderness" and such, I laud you for this. One of the problems of a capitalist system is that ranchers are all competing to get the most payback for their limited resources, so they confine their animals and pump them full of steroids and antibiotics. This is where society must step in and set the bar for what type of treatment is allowable and create agencies to enforce these guidelines.


What you are doing IS un-natural, but since you have the luxury of an abundant food source, your health will not suffer and your conscience will be appeased.

[summerlinda]

hope you are reading posts with a your mind open to enlightenment,

I try to...

Evidence is subjective, 1 scientist proves something, another will say different....

What is un-natural in 2003? Wearing clothes is as un-natural as refusing to eat meat....

:(

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 00:54

hope you are reading posts with a your mind open to enlightenment,

I try to...

Evidence is subjective, 1 scientist proves something, another will say different....

What is un-natural in 2003? Wearing clothes is as un-natural as refusing to eat meat....

:(
Wearing clothes is not a biological function.

It is a response to a harsh environment. Some people wear little or no clothes.

[LTJBukem]

A lot of vegetarians i know, myself included, choose to be so because of the appalling state of the meat industry. Modern intensive livestock farming is great at getting cheap meat on your plate, but there&#39;s nothing at all natural about it.

Many years ago now, i watched a documentary on abbatoirs where an investigative journalist filmed undercover. Amongst other things, the site and sound of a live pig hanging from a hook through its jaw in a blood soaked room surrounded by other pigs, was enough to make me think long and hard about what goes on behind the scenes of the meat industry.

These arguments always come down to the same ignorance. Yeah, but, meat tastes good..... and, we are meant to eat meat..... Bacon Sandwiches......

If anyone chooses to live by a strict diet out of compassion for animals, why the hell should they have to defend themself?

If your purpose wasn&#39;t to bait, JPaul, what was it? Of course most vegetarians feed their dogs meat, what else are they going to feed them? Just because someone chooses to live a certain way, that doesn&#39;t mean they are going to impose that on others, least of all their pets. You knew this so you though you&#39;d try to provoke a reaction. Why do you think you feel the need to do this?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 00:54

hope you are reading posts with a your mind open to enlightenment,

I try to...

Evidence is subjective, 1 scientist proves something, another will say different....

What is un-natural in 2003? Wearing clothes is as un-natural as refusing to eat meat....

:(

You cannot digest cellulose, that is not subjective.

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:39
A lot of vegetarians i know, myself included, choose to be so because of the appalling state of the meat industry. Modern intensive livestock farming is great at getting cheap meat on your plate, but there&#39;s nothing at all natural about it.

Many years ago now, i watched a documentary on abbatoirs where an investigative journalist filmed undercover. Amongst other things, the site and sound of a live pig hanging from a hook through its jaw in a blood soaked room surrounded by other pigs, was enough to make me think long and hard about what goes on behind the scenes of the meat industry.

These arguments always come down to the same ignorance. Yeah, but, meat tastes good..... and, we are meant to eat meat..... Bacon Sandwiches......

If anyone chooses to live by a strict diet out of compassion for animals, why the hell should they have to defend themself?

If your purpose wasn&#39;t to bait, JPaul, what was it? Of course most vegetarians feed their dogs meat, what else are they going to feed them? Just because someone chooses to live a certain way, that doesn&#39;t mean they are going to impose that on others, least of all their pets. You knew this so you though you&#39;d try to provoke a reaction. Why do you think you feel the need to do this?
Wouldn&#39;t it be nice if you actually read the thread? Or do you feel that you are so special that you are sure that whatever has been discussed before could not be as important as what you are saying.

Do your homework, that has been discussed and JPaul has agreed with your viewpoint.

edit: Yes, a bit harsh, but I guess my pet peeve is people who do not invest the time to research a thread tend to cause the flow to eddy, rather than to progress.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by hobbes+16 November 2003 - 01:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 16 November 2003 - 01:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:39
A lot of vegetarians i know, myself included, choose to be so because of the appalling state of the meat industry. Modern intensive livestock farming is great at getting cheap meat on your plate, but there&#39;s nothing at all natural about it.

Many years ago now, i watched a documentary on abbatoirs where an investigative journalist filmed undercover. Amongst other things, the site and sound of a live pig hanging from a hook through its jaw in a blood soaked room surrounded by other pigs, was enough to make me think long and hard about what goes on behind the scenes of the meat industry.

These arguments always come down to the same ignorance. Yeah, but, meat tastes good..... and, we are meant to eat meat..... Bacon Sandwiches......

If anyone chooses to live by a strict diet out of compassion for animals, why the hell should they have to defend themself?

If your purpose wasn&#39;t to bait, JPaul, what was it? Of course most vegetarians feed their dogs meat, what else are they going to feed them? Just because someone chooses to live a certain way, that doesn&#39;t mean they are going to impose that on others, least of all their pets. You knew this so you though you&#39;d try to provoke a reaction. Why do you think you feel the need to do this?
Wouldn&#39;t it be nice if you actually read the thread? Or do you feel that you are so special that you are sure that whatever has been discussed before could not be as important as what you are saying.

Do your homework, that has been discussed and JPaul has agreed with your viewpoint.

edit: Yes, a bit harsh, but I guess my pet peeve is people who do not invest the time to research a thread tend to cause the flow to eddy, rather than to progress. [/b][/quote]
Just because something appears harsh does not mean that it is not also true.

[LTJBukem]

I had read the thread, and have now reread it. Having done so i stand by what i said. What was your point JPol?

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:52
I had read the thread, and have now reread it. Having done so i stand by what i said. What was your point JPol?
I was wondering what vegetarians fed their pets.

Particularly if the particular pet would normally be a carnivore, or indeed live on insects etc.

[LTJBukem]

But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)

[TheDave]

im confused too.

lamsey said hed only feed a dog veggie stuff.

but i dont think a dog would just eat vegetables

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:58
But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)
I did not already know the answer, hence me posing the question.

[LTJBukem]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+16 November 2003 - 01:03--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol &#064; 16 November 2003 - 01:03)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:58
But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)
I did not already know the answer, hence me posing the question.[/b][/quote]
I can imagine a young child asking that question genuinely, but not you JPaul.

Of course an animal that lives on insects isn&#39;t going to eat vegetables. Now you&#39;re not the fool who might, for one second, actually consider that being a possibility.

Admit it JPol, you were baiting.

[the_faceman]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:58
But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)
you make it sound like no vegetarians feed their pets a vegetarian diet, yet if you had read the thread as you have said you have, then you would have seen links to sites for and against this action. even lamsey stated if it was his choice he would feed his sister&#39;s pet only vegetables.

i think that this is enough to show that there was a genuine question being asked. it may be a sensitive one and provoke a reaction or debate, but that&#39;s one of the main purposes of a "forum" such as this. one of the meanings of forum in the dictionary is - "A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program."

You&#39;re also concentrating on insect-eating pets, when he actually said

Particularly if the particular pet would normally be a carnivore, or indeed live on insects etc.
This would mean including dogs, cats and the like.

[summerlinda]

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...

[LTJBukem]

Originally posted by the_faceman+16 November 2003 - 01:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the_faceman @ 16 November 2003 - 01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:58
But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)
you make it sound like no vegetarians feed their pets a vegetarian diet, yet if you had read the thread as you have said you have, then you would have seen links to sites for and against this action. even lamsey stated if it was his choice he would feed his sister&#39;s pet only vegetables.

i think that this is enough to show that there was a genuine question being asked. it may be a sensitive one and provoke a reaction or debate, but that&#39;s one of the main purposes of a "forum" such as this. one of the meanings of forum in the dictionary is - "A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program."

You&#39;re also concentrating on insect-eating pets, when he actually said

Particularly if the particular pet would normally be a carnivore, or indeed live on insects etc.
This would mean including dogs, cats and the like. [/b][/quote]
Including cats and dogs, and also insect eating animal such as spiders and lizards. I am indeed concentrating on such animals because it shows that JPols intentions were not genuine.

Yes, it&#39;s been said that some dog owners feed their pets non meat based feed, but that doesn&#39;t mean that Jpol was genuinely interested in learning such things. I might have believed he were, had he not referred to insect eating animals which would no doubt starve to death before eating a vegetable.

It&#39;s not a sensitive subject at all, and i don&#39;t mind a debate. I hear all this crap all the time off people, i certainly don&#39;t get upset by it. Most likely i probably wouldn&#39;t even have got involved in this topic, had it ot been for summerlinda having to defend her lifestyle.

[j2k4]

All I know is if you all continue in this vein, hobbes is gonna start kicking people in the nuts again, and Linda will be the only one left posting.......

One of my cats eats honey and chocolate, another likes frosted flakes and cake (with icing); he tries to eat celery whenever we do, but fails, as he can&#39;t chew it.

The other two are more, um.....normal.

My wife eats vegetables, though not exclusively, but she is not an animal all the time either, so never mind. :huh:

[hobbes]

Originally posted by summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty.

[summerlinda]

Originally posted by hobbes+16 November 2003 - 02:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 16 November 2003 - 02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty. [/b][/quote]
No, a "good" vegetarian eats freeland eggs and drinks freeland milk

We never said or stated that we live 100% animal friendly, we are not vegans&#33; We do our [b]best in the best possible way... we try... we do at least something...

[clocker]

I won&#39;t even ask how you discovered that your cat like Frosted Flakes and cake j2, ( a combination that would gag all but an eight year old... They&#39;re greeeaaatttt&#33;), but I look forward to a demonstration in a few weeks... :P

My neighbor&#39;s dog Scooby, who I take care of frequently, is very fond of celery. My theory is that it reminds him of the crunching bones of prey in his far distant doggie past.
Or maybe he&#39;s just fey.

[HeavyMetalParkingLot]

Originally posted by summerlinda+16 November 2003 - 01:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (summerlinda @ 16 November 2003 - 01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@16 November 2003 - 02:38
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty.
No, a "good" vegetarian eats freeland eggs and drinks freeland milk [/quote]
vegans do not eat eggs, drink milk, ect, ect, or wear clothing made from leather or fur

[hobbes]

@LTJBukem

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 November 2003 - 23:42
Linda

It is your decision what you do with your life and how you chose to lead it. More power to you for taking such a strong position and defending it so well.

What about feeding pets tho&#39; do you have a policy on that. Liam has told us that his (sister&#39;s) dog is fed meat, tho&#39; he personally would not do so if he had the choice.
Yeah, poor Summerlinda had to defend herself against this.

Again, had you really actually read the thread, you might have picked up on this.


And, of course my vicious attack:

Linda,

Don&#39;t you see that my post supported what you do 100%. I hope you are reading posts with a your mind open to enlightenment, rather than skimming posts thinking about how to defend your point.

I am here to state my position and support it with evidence, but I am also here to see if someone might be able to show me that I am misguided.


From Hobbes 1st post:

QUOTE&nbsp;
As to the philsophy that people refuse to eat certain meats because the animal was raised in a cruel manner to preserve "tenderness" and such, I laud you for this. One of the problems of a capitalist system is that ranchers are all competing to get the most payback for their limited resources, so they confine their animals and pump them full of steroids and antibiotics. This is where society must step in and set the bar for what type of treatment is allowable and create agencies to enforce these guidelines.&nbsp;




What you are doing IS un-natural, but since you have the luxury of an abundant food source, your health will not suffer and your conscience will be appeased.

All of this was posted before you joined in.
Nice try though.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by summerlinda+16 November 2003 - 02:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (summerlinda &#064; 16 November 2003 - 02:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@16 November 2003 - 02:38
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty.
No, a "good" vegetarian eats freeland eggs and drinks freeland milk [/quote]
But your entire stance was against animal cruelty.

So why should you not eat meat from "freeland chickens", it costs a little more, but it is on the label.

And I have first hand knowledge of cows who have been raised kindly. Why can we not eat them. Slaughtering a cow is not like leading a prisoner to the excecution chamber. They really are clueless and are dead within a fraction of a second, if done right.

You are confusing me as to why you are a vegetarian. You start out with cruelty issues, then meander off.

[summerlinda]

Originally posted by HeavyMetalParkingLot+16 November 2003 - 02:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (HeavyMetalParkingLot @ 16 November 2003 - 02:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 01:46

Originally posted by hobbes@16 November 2003 - 02:38
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty.
No, a "good" vegetarian eats freeland eggs and drinks freeland milk
vegans do not eat eggs, drink milk, ect, ect, or wear clothing made from leather or fur [/quote]
Stay out of it fucknut...

I edited it just for you :P

[j2k4]

Originally posted by clocker@15 November 2003 - 21:47
I won&#39;t even ask how you discovered that your cat like Frosted Flakes and cake j2, ( a combination that would gag all but an eight year old... They&#39;re greeeaaatttt&#33;), but I look forward to a demonstration in a few weeks... :P

My neighbor&#39;s dog Scooby, who I take care of frequently, is very fond of celery. My theory is that it reminds him of the crunching bones of prey in his far distant doggie past.
Or maybe he&#39;s just fey.
Celery would certainly make a fey bone. ;)

I suggest to you your neighbor&#39;s dog may be homophobic.

[clocker]

I see you are dancing around the question of how your cat came to fed such a bizarre diet, j2.

Perhaps a call to the ASPCA is in order?

[LTJBukem]

@hobbes

Nice try???

Am i competing with someone? Are you&#33;&#33;&#33;

Crikey :blink:


Originally posted by summerlinda defending her lifestyle
I think people treat animals cruel, than eat them, and thats just plain wrong.
1 little thing i can do about that is stop eating meat and battery eggs etc, so i will.
I would give my life if all animal cruelty would stop forever, i know its easy saying because its not going to happen, but i would.

Its everybody&#39;s own choice, but dont say its unhealthy, because thats not true, and vegetarians are the living examples of that.

I just hope that if people chose to eat meat, they will eat "animal friendly meat" Wouldnt you feel better if you knew that the pig you are eating had a nice life?
Those biological / animal friendly farmers need money too, so why not support them?

I also donate money too an organisation that promotes alternative animal testing for medicin etc, its all ican do, but i&#39;m doing it, at least i try making a difference.

Now you can all shoot me with your big ass English vocabulairs, and come with more scientific prove and what not, i dont care, i can go to sleep with the thought that i was not 100% responsible for ending the life another cruel treated animal.

[summerlinda]

Originally posted by hobbes+16 November 2003 - 02:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 16 November 2003 - 02:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:46

Originally posted by hobbes@16 November 2003 - 02:38
<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda@16 November 2003 - 02:17

If you were to take a closed experimental ecosystem in which the calories available were exactly sufficient for survival and add a group of vegetarians, you would come back later to find everyone dead.

Why would those vegetarians eat all those plants which could have been better utilized by the herbivores. They wasted so many calories, which could have been saved, that everyone starved. Not natural.

Vegetarians do drink milk, eat eggs etc, so that example makes no sense...
Do eggs not come from abused chickens and milk from abused cows? Sort of contradicts your whole stance against animal cruelty.
No, a "good" vegetarian eats freeland eggs and drinks freeland milk
But your entire stance was against animal cruelty.

So why should you not eat meat from "freeland chickens", it costs a little more, but it is on the label.

And I have first hand knowledge of cows who have been raised kindly. Why can we not eat them. Slaughtering a cow is not like leading a prisoner to the excecution chamber. They really are clueless and are dead within a fraction of a second, if done right.

You are confusing me as to why you are a vegetarian. You start out with cruelty issues, then meander off. [/quote]
I like to be a vegetarian, yes. That takes away the killing.

I like the whole world to be, but i understand its not going to happen.

So second best is eating "animal fiendly" meat, eggs, milk etc.
That takes away [part of] the animal abuse.

But its not going to happen either because most people just dont care, thats the point.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by LTJBukem+16 November 2003 - 03:07--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LTJBukem @ 16 November 2003 - 03:07)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> @hobbes

Nice try???

Am i competing with someone? Are you&#33;&#33;&#33;

Crikey :blink:

<!--QuoteBegin-summerlinda defending her lifestyle
I think people treat animals cruel, than eat them, and thats just plain wrong.
1 little thing i can do about that is stop eating meat and battery eggs etc, so i will.
I would give my life if all animal cruelty would stop forever, i know its easy saying because its not going to happen, but i would.

Its everybody&#39;s own choice, but dont say its unhealthy, because thats not true, and vegetarians are the living examples of that.

I just hope that if people chose to eat meat, they will eat "animal friendly meat" Wouldnt you feel better if you knew that the pig you are eating had a nice life?
Those biological / animal friendly farmers need money too, so why not support them?

I also donate money too an organisation that promotes alternative animal testing for medicin etc, its all ican do, but i&#39;m doing it, at least i try making a difference.

Now you can all shoot me with your big ass English vocabulairs, and come with more scientific prove and what not, i dont care, i can go to sleep with the thought that i was not 100% responsible for ending the life another cruel treated animal. [/b][/quote]
I like your hat.

[J'Pol]

Deflection and cheap point scoring, rather than discussing the issues and dealing with what people actually said.

That seems oddly familiar. I have to agree with hobbes and suggest that you read the posts and respond to them.

[LTJBukem]

But your entire stance was against animal cruelty.

So why should you not eat meat from "freeland chickens", it costs a little more, but it is on the label.

And I have first hand knowledge of cows who have been raised kindly. Why can we not eat them. Slaughtering a cow is not like leading a prisoner to the excecution chamber. They really are clueless and are dead within a fraction of a second, if done right.

You are confusing me as to why you are a vegetarian. You start out with cruelty issues, then meander off.Erm.... you are desperate to prove something here, aren&#39;t you. Obviously, summerlinda is satisfied that said chickens and cows are not treated cruelly.

What is confusing you exactly?

Why can&#39;t you just accept that she doesn&#39;t want to eat meat?

[LTJBukem]

I&#39;m not understanding the hat comment i&#39;m afraid.




Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@16 November 2003 - 02:13
Deflection and cheap point scoring, rather than discussing the issues and dealing with what people actually said.

That seems oddly familiar. I have to agree with hobbes and suggest that you read the posts and respond to them.
What are you talking about JPol?

I didn&#39;t deflect the issue, i posted summerlinda defending her lifestyle in response to hobbes&#39; previous post. Not seeing myself as competing, i made that point too.

Now, about your baiting.....

[LTJBukem]

Originally posted by LTJBukem+16 November 2003 - 01:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LTJBukem @ 16 November 2003 - 01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@16 November 2003 - 01:03
<!--QuoteBegin-LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 01:58
But you already knew the answer to that question. Or are you genuinely confused whether veggies feed there pet spiders and lizards vegetables rather than insects? You&#39;re an intelligent guy, you were baiting.

:)
I did not already know the answer, hence me posing the question.
I can imagine a young child asking that question genuinely, but not you JPaul.

Of course an animal that lives on insects isn&#39;t going to eat vegetables. Now you&#39;re not the fool who might, for one second, actually consider that being a possibility.

Admit it JPol, you were baiting. [/b][/quote]
Well?

[summerlinda]

Anyway i&#39;m off to bed, and will not come back to this thread since JP and Hobbes are so eager "winning" this discussion which cant be won since its not a competition.

I still say JP started this thread to "stoke" & "provoke" He couldn&#39;t care less what we feed our pets, but thats just my feeling, i cant "proof" that.

Live life they way you want it, and let us live it the way we want us and do not question our honesty in this matter. Rather question yourselves, what can YOU do to make this world a better place?

Take care.

[hobbes]

Her entire point against eating animals was based on animal cruelty. I agreed and saluted her.

Then she decided that eating animal products (milk, eggs) was ok becuase they were treated properly.

So, I asked, "what about animals treated well but used for meat" that would be ok, right?

I never told her that she should not be a vegetarian. I did point out that her lifestyle was a luxury of a society enjoying a great food excess. The vegetarian lifestyle is incredibly wasteful.

My point was that the general rub from vegetarians is a sense of superiority and my posts focused on why I felt that eating meat was what we were born to do, as that is what our biochemistry prepared for.

At any rate, I have not said anything new in this post. Why I bother giving the Readers Digest version for the lazy is unclear to me, maybe I hope that your ears are open.

The "hat" comment was to answer nonsense with nonsense.

[hobbes]

from Hobbes:

I am here to state my position and support it with evidence, but I am also here to see if someone might be able to show me that I am misguided
Seriously people, how can a person who posts something like this be out to "win" a discussion?

I find comments made in this thread to be totally in contradiction to what I have said.

I cannot live with lying to myself, can you?

If you cannot defend your position, then acquiesce.

[lynx]

And you did it so well too, Sandra. Now don&#39;t get your panties knotted.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by lynx@16 November 2003 - 03:49
And you did it so well too, Sandra. Now don&#39;t get your panties knotted.
Hey birthday boy, there have been new developments here: http://www.klboard.ath.cx/index.php?showtopic=81966

And happy 25th to you.
And happy 25th to you.
;)

[LTJBukem]

Originally posted by hobbes
Her entire point against eating animals was based on animal cruelty. I agreed and saluted her.

Then she decided that eating animal products (milk, eggs) was ok becuase they were treated properly.

So, I asked, "what about animals treated well but used for meat" that would be ok, right?

I never told her that she should not be a vegetarian. I did point out that her lifestyle was a luxury of a society enjoying a great food excess. The vegetarian lifestyle is incredibly wasteful.

My point was that the general rub from vegetarians is a sense of superiority and my posts focused on why I felt that eating meat was what we were born to do, as that is what our biochemistry prepared for.

At any rate, I have not said anything new in this post. Why I bother giving the Readers Digest version for the lazy is unclear to me, maybe I hope that your ears are open.

The "hat" comment was to answer nonsense with nonsense.



Obviously, Linda feels that milking cows, and eating hens eggs, isn&#39;t as cruel as pumping them full of steroids and antibiotics their entire lifes, before shooting them in a blood soaked abbatoir.


What you said about the vegetarian diet being wasteful is rubbish, the opposite is true. Pasture land, grain and clean water used in the meat industry is tremendously wasteful, and it is actually the minority of the world population who enjoy the luxury of a meat based diet. If such luxury wasn&#39;t afforded to the few, and all farm land were used more productively, there could be a significant reduction in world starvation. Further, the terribly wasteful deforestation of the rain forests for pasture land is another matter i haven&#39;t time to mention.

You find that vegetarians have an air of superiority? Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, it certainly explains your actions here tonight.

Whether or not you believe we are born to eat meat or not is not the issue, nor is human biochemistry. Again, these are your opinons. If someone chooses not to eat meat out of compassion toward animals, that&#39;s there choice, as is yours to eat meat. I think you should respect that.

Your &#39;Readers Digest&#39; has indeed brought up nothing new, however, it shows how desperately competetive you are in this situation.

You responded with your hat comment, to my posting an example of Linda&#39;s defensive stance in this thread. I do not see how that is nonsense.

[hobbes]

I think I have said my piece here.

What I find telling is not what you quote, but what you do not acknowledge. Do you think I am bent on some evil agenda? I am a nice guy who acknowledges points well made and who is always ready to listen to the otherside.

All animals, whether for eggs or milk or flesh, get steroids and antibiotics.

I will let what I have said stand and hope objective viewers will contemplate my position.


What you said about the vegetarian diet being wasteful is rubbish, the opposite is true. Pasture land, grain and clean water used in the meat industry is tremendously wasteful, and it is actually the minority of the world population who enjoy the luxury of a meat based diet. If such luxury wasn&#39;t afforded to the few, and all farm land were used more productively, there could be a significant reduction in world starvation. Further, the terribly wasteful deforestation of the rain forests for pasture land is another matter i haven&#39;t time to mention.

No, that entire paragraph is wrong. Rain forests were never meant to be pastures, that is a complete misuse of the land and has no bearing on the topic.

World starvation is political, not resource limited.

I tire of tactics.



&nbsp;
I am here to state my position and support it with evidence, but I am also here to see if someone might be able to show me that I am misguided

I can understand how the above quote would indicate my desperate need to "win" an argument <_<

[the_faceman]

this has deviated from the original discussion too far, and has turned into a thread about vegetarians themselves, and not whethere they feed their pets meat products or a wholly vegetarian diet. it should be closed.

posting 3 times in a row seems desperate to me.

[clocker]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@15 November 2003 - 20:12


Whether or not you believe we are born to eat meat or not is not the issue, nor is human biochemistry. Again, these are your opinons.
Irregardless of everything else, "human biochemistry" is not an opinion that hobbes has chosen to believe.

I think that it is a science.

[Wednesday]

Originally posted by LTJBukem@16 November 2003 - 03:12
If someone chooses not to eat meat out of compassion toward animals, that&#39;s there choice, as is yours to eat meat. I think you should respect that.




I agree with this statement. I thought this forum was open minded.

Dogs can live a healthy life on vegetarian food, but, it is more difficult for cats as they need taurine. Taurine deficiency causes blindness and heart disease. On saying that there is vegetarian cat foods with taurine supplements.

As long as your dog or cat is fit and healthy is well loked after and enjoys life what&#39;s the problem?

[Lamsey]

Originally posted by Wednesday@16 November 2003 - 12:20
Dogs can live a healthy life on vegetarian food, but, it is more difficult for cats as they need taurine. Taurine deficiency causes blindness and heart disease. On saying that there is vegetarian cat foods with taurine supplements?
Just give &#39;em some Red Bull ;)

[Kunal]

Originally posted by Lamsey@16 November 2003 - 12:47
Just give &#39;em some Red Bull ;)
it gives them wings :unsure: .....

[Wednesday]

Originally posted by Lamsey+16 November 2003 - 12:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey &#064; 16 November 2003 - 12:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Wednesday@16 November 2003 - 12:20
Dogs can live a healthy life on vegetarian food, but, it is more difficult for cats as they need taurine. Taurine deficiency causes blindness and heart disease. On saying that there is vegetarian cat foods with taurine supplements?
Just give &#39;em some Red Bull ;)[/b][/quote]
:D Is this a tried and tested recommendation? :D

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Lamsey+16 November 2003 - 13:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lamsey &#064; 16 November 2003 - 13:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Wednesday@16 November 2003 - 12:20
Dogs can live a healthy life on vegetarian food, but, it is more difficult for cats as they need taurine. Taurine deficiency causes blindness and heart disease. On saying that there is vegetarian cat foods with taurine supplements?
Just give &#39;em some Red Bull ;)[/b][/quote]
Oh, so eating Red Bulls is ok, just not the standard ones? :blink:

As a dog owner, I know that they tend go medieval on their food. As soon as the Alpo slurps out of the can, you had better get your fingers out of the way, as gnashing jaws are coming through.

So I would say that you should use that response to what you are feeding it as a gauge. Dogs know what they want to eat.

If you put out your veggie platter and you get "the look", then you should probably get him something else. You know "the look"- the dog stares at the food, then looks up at you, then back to the bowl. Translation- That&#39;s not food, dummy.

If the dog nibbles at the food and eats without enthusiasm, you should give him something different.


Bottom line- If you have taken care to ensure adequate nutrition and the dog eats it with great enthusiasm, then I have no problem. But to limit a dog to something that he picks at or eats indifferently or with a funny face (see below)is nothing short of animal cruelty. Eating is one of the few basic pleasures and your dog should not be held hostage by your philosophy.

I really think the enthusiasm part is quite important, because your dog looks to you for approval and a dog always want to be involved in what you are doing. He might just eat the stuff to please you. For example, when my mother was little, she and some friends were all eating oranges and her dog, Fifi, was barking excitedly for a slice. She gave the dog the slice and immediately its muzzle puckered up and it instinctively backed up. But being the good dog she was, she sat there and delicately chewed up and swallowed the orange. Dogs are easy victims of peer pressure.

[Yogi]

and your dog should not be held hostage by your philosophy.

Thank you.

Yogi

[Yogi]

Just to give this thread a new twist.



Vegetarian Sex
From the book:
"The New Vegetarians"
by Paul R. Amato, Ph.D. and Sonia A. Partridge

Meat-eaters, as we all know, sometimes use oysters or exotic meats as aphrodisiacs. This might appear to leave vegetarians without any suitable recourse. However, as one person informed us, vegetarians use other vegetarians as aphrodisiacs. We were curious to know if becoming vegetarian has any implications for people&#39;s sexual urges, feelings or behavior. 62% of those interviewed reported that thier sex lives have improved. We noted above that a common physical change is for people to experience an increase in their level of energy and endurance after eliminating meat from their diets. Not surprisingly, these enhanced capabilities are sometimes said to yeild certain benefits in the bedroom: I feel healthier and have more energy and vitality. And this adds to my positive feelings about sex. Another person adds: This diet has made me feel sexier since I am thinner and have almost unlimited sexual energy. I have clear skin that is virtually wrinkle-free, even at age 35.

As the women above noted , losing unwanted body fat can enhance one&#39;s sex appeal. Another person put it this way, "Before becoming vegetarian I was fat and unappealing. Now I&#39;m lean in the sunshine and have a great love of life." Certainly, in our culture, slimness is seen as a characteristic of physically attractive people. It is not surprising, therefore, that people who lose unnecessary body fat after adopting a vegetarian diet should find that their love lives improve. For some, an improvement in sexual relations leads to more intimate and better-quality personal relationships with lovers and spouses. As one person said, "My sexual life? It&#39;s healthier, more spiritual, closer and more committed." Another person put it this way: "My sex life is better because I have a better understanding of love than I ever had before becoming a vegan."

Some vegetarians say they couldn&#39;t imagine making love with someone who eats meat. Fellow vegetarians, it seems, are perceived as being more attractive, and sexier, than meat-eaters. As one woman told us, "I find my husband more sexually appealing knowing that he is not a vessel full of decaying carcasses."

Webmaster:
Male impotency has been linked to eating animal foods. It is said that the same cholesterol and saturated fat that clogs the brain and heart also clogs the main circulation of blood flow to the penis.



Source: eatveg.com


Yogi

[Gemby!]

i have a goldfish ..... it eats fish food flake things .... and my last pet before that was a rabbit - they had veg too .......no dogs or cats or meat eating pets over here &#33;&#33;

i want a chiwawa &#33; :) i would serve it meat though if i did get one

i chose to be a veggie not the dog &#33; :P

[hobbes]

Originally posted by SensualGardening@16 November 2003 - 16:40
Just to give this thread a new twist.



Vegetarian Sex
From the book:
"The New Vegetarians"
by Paul R. Amato, Ph.D. and Sonia A. Partridge

Meat-eaters, as we all know, sometimes use oysters or exotic meats as aphrodisiacs. This might appear to leave vegetarians without any suitable recourse. However, as one person informed us, vegetarians use other vegetarians as aphrodisiacs. We were curious to know if becoming vegetarian has any implications for people&#39;s sexual urges, feelings or behavior. 62% of those interviewed reported that thier sex lives have improved. We noted above that a common physical change is for people to experience an increase in their level of energy and endurance after eliminating meat from their diets. Not surprisingly, these enhanced capabilities are sometimes said to yeild certain benefits in the bedroom: I feel healthier and have more energy and vitality. And this adds to my positive feelings about sex. Another person adds: This diet has made me feel sexier since I am thinner and have almost unlimited sexual energy. I have clear skin that is virtually wrinkle-free, even at age 35.







Source: eatveg.com


Yogi
Vegetable Aphrodisiac
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/plantanswers/publications/vegetabletravelers/cucumber.jpg


or


This is the Chinese aphrodisiac par excellence

Real bird&#39;s nest soup is made from the nests of sea swallows, found in bat-filled caves on the islands of Borneo and Java. The nests are made of seaweed glued together by swallow&#39;s saliva - oh saliva and seaweed, I&#39;m drooling all over my keyboard, yum&#33;

[Yogi]

seaweed glued together by swallow&#39;s saliva

Hobbes........ :o :huh: ;) :lol:

Drewl-Yogi

[Wednesday]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 November 2003 - 19:35
I was wondering what vegetarians fed their pets.

Particularly if the particular pet would normally be a carnivore, or indeed live on insects etc.

If you are from the great state of Vegetaria, or are related to or know someone who is perhaps you could enlighten me.
I am a vegetarian and I fed my 4 dogs on meat, vegetables and cereals.

[leonidas]

I&#39;m not sure but I think that food for cats & dog is the pieces of the animal you don&#39;t eat, like bones fat blood and other disgusting things. So theoricaly it wont cause pain to any animal if you feed you pet with special food for them. But I &#39;m not totally sure of that. Maybe someone knows

[Wednesday]

Originally posted by leonidas@16 November 2003 - 19:11
I&#39;m not sure but I think that food for cats & dog is the pieces of the animal you don&#39;t eat, like bones fat blood and other disgusting things. So theoricaly it wont cause pain to any animal if you feed you pet with special food for them. But I &#39;m not totally sure of that. Maybe someone knows
I don&#39;t know either but http://www.flintriverranch.org/labels.html is a good place to start

[Gemby!]

ok so what do non-veggie pet owners feed their pets ...

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by gemby&#33;@16 November 2003 - 21:14
ok so what do non-veggie pet owners feed their pets ...
We feed our dog Pedigree, small adult, dry dog food. Always with a ready supply of fresh clean water.

Both from stainless steel bowls.

The Vet recomended not giving it any wet food (from a tin) at all, not even some mixed thro&#39;.

[Billy_Dean]

Dogs should be fed freshly killed meat, as they would eat in the wild. I recommend cat, there&#39;s plenty of them around, and if you lock it in the loo with the dog it can kill for itself, as it does in the wild. Treating your dog any other way is cruel. Mind you, if you have a breed of dog that eats dried food out of a stainless steel bowl in the wild, then that&#39;s what you should feed it.


:)

[Ella]

Holy shite, BD....you been up all night? Or just awake really early... :rolleyes:

[LTJBukem]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@16 November 2003 - 20:30
Dogs should be fed freshly killed meat, as they would eat in the wild. I recommend cat, there&#39;s plenty of them around, and if you lock it in the loo with the dog it can kill for itself, as it does in the wild. Treating your dog any other way is cruel. Mind you, if you have a breed of dog that eats dried food out of a stainless steel bowl in the wild, then that&#39;s what you should feed it.


:)
Good point&#33; Apart from the bit about the cat that is.

:)

[Gemby!]

:o eat ickle me ?? :o

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@16 November 2003 - 21:30
Dogs should be fed freshly killed meat, as they would eat in the wild. I recommend cat, there&#39;s plenty of them around, and if you lock it in the loo with the dog it can kill for itself, as it does in the wild. Treating your dog any other way is cruel. Mind you, if you have a breed of dog that eats dried food out of a stainless steel bowl in the wild, then that&#39;s what you should feed it.


:)

I have seen the qualifications of the Vet we use. She keeps them on the wall of her office in Bearsden.

I have not seen your&#39;s Billy, if you could give me a short resume on your qualifications in the field that might be helpful.

I can&#39;t really see my wee mutt being fit for the kill / eat raw meat scenario tho&#39;.

So here&#39;s the quandary, do I stick with the Vets advice, or go with Billy&#39;s.

[Billy_Dean]

Hi Ella, actually, I&#39;ve been waiting for you to get up so I can go to bed. Had a couple of Pommie mates round forcing me to get pissed.


:)

[Ella]

Hey matey&#33; Bloody pommies, hey? Can&#39;t live with &#39;em and can&#39;t kill &#39;em&#33; I actually need to attend my place of work today so can&#39;t hold your freakin&#39; end up today, babe&#33;&#33; :P

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@16 November 2003 - 21:30
I recommend cat, there&#39;s plenty of them around, and if you lock it in the loo with the dog it can kill for itself, as it does in the wild.


:)
http://www.acmeclimbing.com/assets/images/portable-toilet.jpgBilly, How do the wild dogs lure the cats into the port-o-potties and who unlocks the door when the killing is finished?

[bigboab]

Originally posted by hobbes+16 November 2003 - 21:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 16 November 2003 - 21:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@16 November 2003 - 21:30
I recommend cat, there&#39;s plenty of them around, and if you lock it in the loo with the dog it can kill for itself, as it does in the wild.


:)
http://www.acmeclimbing.com/assets/images/portable-toilet.jpgBilly, How do the wild dogs lure the cats into the port-o-potties and who unlocks the door when the killing is finished? [/b][/quote]
Wrong portaloo Hobbes. That one is for pekes. :D

[J'Pol]

You want to look at people when they are using a public facility :o :ph34r: :blink:

Shame on you sir.

[bigboab]

I know. This must not be my night for straight men. :lol: