Bukowski chat

[Squeamous]

Hey, Chavois-faire,

I was thinking about Buk on my way into work this morning. I was trying to think about why whenever I write anything it sounds trite and up myself, yet he can make these massively grand statements about his genius and he just sounds effortlessly right and cool.
I think it's because he makes you feel like it's you and he in it together, and it's everyone else who is dead and rubbish. What do you think?

[chalice]

I just get the feeling of authenticity from him. On his gravestone it reads 'Don't Try'. Whenever he was pestered for advice from fledgeling writers, he'd (under duress) tell them not to try. Now, maybe he was being obtuse and in a roundabout way telling them to fuck off and stop badgering him, but one gets the sense that none of what he wrote was planned, plotted or structured. He was compelled to write. Ordinarily that would sound pretentious as fuck, but not with him. Art for Art's sake and all that wank.

He is 'within and without', to quote Fitzgerald, 'simultaneously enchanted and repelled by the inexhaustible variety of life'. It's not just wart's and all, it's fucking extra deluxe warts for all those wart lovers amongst us.

The closest in approach I've seen to him (besides a kinship with Hemingway) is Hubert Selby Jr (Last Exit To Brooklyn), but Selby does vignettes. Small slices of degradation, but with a highly moralistic tone. Buk just says 'Fuck all that'. This is how it is and if you judge it as anything else, you're a spastic'.

Just finished Hollywood. Fucking hilarious.

[manker]

I think it's all about perception.
I can almost guarantee that if I was to read the parts where he was describing his genious, I would feel that he was being up himself and a bit of a knob - but you both have read and have appreciated said genious and are of the particular mind that he's a good egg. With what squeams wrote in the first post, it's because you feel his work backs up his statements and your own literary efforts don't.
I reckon I'd feel the same if my literary heroes wrote similar passages but the authors I feel most kinship with seem almost entirely bereft of ego.


I've stayed away from this guy purely because someone told me years ago that I have to read Bukowski's poetry because it's dead good :mellow:

[chalice]

Heard a great story about him. He had a film crew making a documentary about him in the early 70's. They followed him around the lecture circuit at the crest of his breakthrough with Black Sparrow Press. They were en route to some University on a plane, and he was being his usual belligerent self, brow-beating the crew and getting stinko.

A couple of weeks later he printed a story in the LA Free Press, describing the journey and how great he was and how the crew were just arty schmucks, transfusing his genius. The director came to him and said 'But Hank, you were the guy getting nasty and blotto on the plane. I've got the footage to prove it'.

Buk goes, 'Look, when I write, I'm the hero of my shit. You've got your little film and I wish you luck with it.

Legend.

[chalice]

I think it's all about perception.
I can almost guarantee that if I was to read the parts where he was describing his genious, I would feel that he was being up himself and a bit of a knob - but you both have read and have appreciated said genious and are of the particular mind that he's a good egg. With what squeams wrote in the first post, it's because you feel his work backs up his statements and your own literary efforts don't.
I reckon I'd feel the same if my literary heroes wrote similar passages but the authors I feel most kinship with seem almost entirely bereft of ego.


I've stayed away from this guy purely because someone told me years ago that I have to read Bukowski's poetry because it's dead good :mellow:

I reckon you'd really enjoy his prose, mate. I wouldn't be so daft as to inflict anybody's poetry on you. I know you had that traumatic episode with Sylvia Plath in your formative years.

A good place to start, I reckon, would be Ham On Rye, though written much later in life, it chronicles his brutal but defiant upbringing. Gimme an email address and I'll send you the .mobi copy. Or don't. See if I fucking care.

[manker]

I'd like that, thank you. My email is my username here @gmail.com

I'm currently womping along thro some asimov and I've got the new installment of Cornwell's medieval romp epic on t'kindle waiting for me.
Thing is, I've always bought his stuff and I'm gonna feel guilty all the way thro if I read this thing I've stolen. Your timely offer will probably afford me enough time to go buy it.
Cheers.

[chalice]

I'd like that, thank you. My email is my username here @gmail.com

I'm currently womping along thro some asimov and I've got the new installment of Cornwell's medieval romp epic on t'kindle waiting for me.
Thing is, I've always bought his stuff and I'm gonna feel guilty all the way thro if I read this thing I've stolen. Your timely offer will probably afford me enough time to go buy it.
Cheers.

Funnily enough, I read I Robot and Foundation a few weeks ago. Super stuff. What the fuck they were doing in that Will Smith film, I have no fucking idea. Atrocity. Been reading a lot of Ray Bradbury too.

Email sent. Added a couple cos I like you. They're in epub but they convert very well with Calibre innit.

Edit: Resent them in .mobi. cos that's just the kinda guy I am.

[manker]

Yeah, Calibre. What a decent bit of kit that is.
The Foundation novels are fab, eh. I also liked the preludes and sequels he wrote in later life which are less critically acclaimed.

Do you use library.nu, btw? It's ace. I coincidentally downloaded Fahrenheit 451 from there just yesterday.

Got teh mail, nioce one.

[Barbarossa]

What is this calibre of which you speak?

[chalice]

What is this calibre of which you speak?

Ebook archiver and converter, Barbs. Quality.

http://calibre-ebook.com/download_windows

[Barbarossa]

What is this calibre of which you speak?

Ebook archiver and converter, Barbs. Quality.

http://calibre-ebook.com/download_windows

Cool! Sounds good. I was looking for something to convert .pdf into .mobi format. Will it do that?

[chalice]

Ebook archiver and converter, Barbs. Quality.

http://calibre-ebook.com/download_windows

Cool! Sounds good. I was looking for something to convert .pdf into .mobi format. Will it do that?

It'll do it, but the PDFs I've converted are a bit wank. Converts epubs nearly pefectly, but PDFs are a bit of a cunt. Try it anyway. Might just be the ones I tried innit.

[Squeamous]

I just get the feeling of authenticity from him. On his gravestone it reads 'Don't Try'. Whenever he was pestered for advice from fledgeling writers, he'd (under duress) tell them not to try. Now, maybe he was being obtuse and in a roundabout way telling them to fuck off and stop badgering him, but one gets the sense that none of what he wrote was planned, plotted or structured. He was compelled to write. Ordinarily that would sound pretentious as fuck, but not with him. Art for Art's sake and all that wank.

He is 'within and without', to quote Fitzgerald, 'simultaneously enchanted and repelled by the inexhaustible variety of life'. It's not just wart's and all, it's fucking extra deluxe warts for all those wart lovers amongst us.

The closest in approach I've seen to him (besides a kinship with Hemingway) is Hubert Selby Jr (Last Exit To Brooklyn), but Selby does vignettes. Small slices of degradation, but with a highly moralistic tone. Buk just says 'Fuck all that'. This is how it is and if you judge it as anything else, you're a spastic'.

Just finished Hollywood. Fucking hilarious.

He was just completely devoid of pretension, and that's the key I think. Anybody who wants to write but needs help or finds it difficult shouldn't be writing, fact. They will either sound like a bell-end or have that awful staccato awkward style that doesn't flow.
People I consider to write with the same lack of pretension and a scientific pursuit of truth no matter how degrading or grubby, are George Orwell (Down and Out.....) and Henry Miller (Tropics....). I've heard of Last Exit but not the author, so I'll look that one up, ta :)



I think it's all about perception.
I can almost guarantee that if I was to read the parts where he was describing his genious, I would feel that he was being up himself and a bit of a knob - but you both have read and have appreciated said genious and are of the particular mind that he's a good egg. With what squeams wrote in the first post, it's because you feel his work backs up his statements and your own literary efforts don't.
I reckon I'd feel the same if my literary heroes wrote similar passages but the authors I feel most kinship with seem almost entirely bereft of ego.


I've stayed away from this guy purely because someone told me years ago that I have to read Bukowski's poetry because it's dead good :mellow:

I think it's because when I write I'm selfish and I navel-gaze, whereas when Buk writes he sounds like a bystander to the story or thing he's putting across. He's documenting it with wry humour and sometimes savage intensity, but it's very journalistic in style. You will rarely hear what he feels about any of what he's saying. He's a detached observer in his own life. It's almost as if you're standing there with him as much a part of it as he is.


Heard a great story about him. He had a film crew making a documentary about him in the early 70's. They followed him around the lecture circuit at the crest of his breakthrough with Black Sparrow Press. They were en route to some University on a plane, and he was being his usual belligerent self, brow-beating the crew and getting stinko.

A couple of weeks later he printed a story in the LA Free Press, describing the journey and how great he was and how the crew were just arty schmucks, transfusing his genius. The director came to him and said 'But Hank, you were the guy getting nasty and blotto on the plane. I've got the footage to prove it'.

Buk goes, 'Look, when I write, I'm the hero of my shit. You've got your little film and I wish you luck with it.

Legend.

Ever see that video of him being interviewed and giving Linda a clout because she said something he didn't like? No doubt that he was very fucking flawed.



A good place to start, I reckon, would be Ham On Rye, though written much later in life, it chronicles his brutal but defiant upbringing. Gimme an email address and I'll send you the .mobi copy. Or don't. See if I fucking care.

Yup....Ham on Rye, throughly concur. Probably my favourite thing he's written :yup:

[manker]

I think it's because when I write I'm selfish and I navel-gaze, whereas when Buk writes he sounds like a bystander to the story or thing he's putting across. He's documenting it with wry humour and sometimes savage intensity, but it's very journalistic in style. You will rarely hear what he feels about any of what he's saying. He's a detached observer in his own life. It's almost as if you're standing there with him as much a part of it as he is.Then I don't really understand your initial comment.
Which is hardly surprising since I have no idea what I'm talking about :D
I shall read this Catcher in the Ham book and write some more stuff.

[Something Else]

I've been reading some of the Ender series, by Orson Scott Card recently, as well as some short stories by Philip.K.Dick. Asimov is great too. I've been meaning to read some of those again.

I think i've got a fillum about this Bukowski fella. I'm not too familiar with his stuffs. I'll check some out. Does he mind you calling him Buk.

[megabyteme]

Wait a minute...this thread has nothing to do with womens getting large amounts of semen all over their faces. What a rip. :angry:

[100%]

We just watched a local lame version of Eurovision song contest together, enjoyable if you get into it
now my wife is putting the child to bed by reading a comfy bed time story.
Just did the dishes, and will work on my essay.

My contribution to Bukowski chat.

[Squeamous]

I think it's because when I write I'm selfish and I navel-gaze, whereas when Buk writes he sounds like a bystander to the story or thing he's putting across. He's documenting it with wry humour and sometimes savage intensity, but it's very journalistic in style. You will rarely hear what he feels about any of what he's saying. He's a detached observer in his own life. It's almost as if you're standing there with him as much a part of it as he is.Then I don't really understand your initial comment.
Which is hardly surprising since I have no idea what I'm talking about :D
I shall read this Catcher in the Ham book and write some more stuff.

What I meant was, he can be up himself and egotistical because he does it without diminishing the reader in any way. He's totally non-threatening. Usually if a writer were to say 'I'm fucking amazing and so is this poem: it's the best one you've ever read' you would think 'what a knob'. Somehow he gets away with it. I think my literary efforts are just fine, and I've got the ability to write. I just hate myself when I do.
Anyway, my sinuses are full of snot and I feel like dying so I'm probably not making much sense :sadwalk:

[manker]

That makes hella sense.
I might ask you and chavois to stop the talking about, and indeed the reading of, books for a while so that I can catch up and revel in scholastic parity.

I said might, I probably won't. I'm not feeling terribly assertive today :emo:

[mjmacky]

Wait a minute...this thread has nothing to do with womens getting large amounts of semen all over their faces. What a rip. :angry:

You're thinking of Polish Bukkake, aka Bukkakowski.

[megabyteme]

You're thinking of Polish Bukkake, aka Bukkakowski.

I knew if there was one guy on the whole site who'd get my joke, it'd be you. :wub:

In related gnus, this is close enough:


Anyway, my sinuses are full of snot

[Squeamous]

That makes hella sense.
I might ask you and chavois to stop the talking about, and indeed the reading of, books for a while so that I can catch up and revel in scholastic parity.

I said might, I probably won't. I'm not feeling terribly assertive today :emo:

Aw, did you catch sight of yourself naked again?
All the books or authors I've mentioned thus far I read or got into years ago. Sadly not a big reader anymore. Until now. I just picked up Peter Ackroyd's "Dickens". Obviously when I found out it was about some old long dead beardy dude I was a bit disappointed, but I've persevered with it and to my eternal shame by the end of the prologue I was blubbing like a baby. Think I might have been coming down from the weekend, but whatever.

I knew if there was one guy on the whole site who'd comment on my barbarically obvious joke, it'd be you. :wub:



fixed

[megabyteme]

I knew if there was one guy on the whole site who'd comment on my barbarically obvious joke, it'd be you. :wub:



Delighted to hear you know the word bukkake, squeams. You are obviously well read. :happy:

EDIT- What a girl does in her leisure thyme is her (and 7-10 others) own business.

[manker]

Aw, did you catch sight of yourself naked again?Is this a clever ruse where I'll answer yes and you'll kindly offer to see if I have anything to worry about if only I'd send you some pics.

Sometimes I think you're just not interested in my mind at all :snooty:

[Squeamous]

Delighted to hear you know the word bukkake, squeams. You are obviously well read. :happy:

EDIT- What a girl does in her leisure thyme is her (and 7-10 others) own business.

Nothing I said intimated that I did, but in fact you're right, I do know what bukkake is. It was on my list of things to do before 30, but I couldn't find enough women willing to squirt all over Jonathan Rhys Meyers' face with me.


Is this a clever ruse where I'll answer yes and you'll kindly offer to see if I have anything to worry about if only I'd send you some pics.

Sometimes I think you're just not interested in my mind at all :snooty:

I've seen your mind; there's just an empty bottle of campari and a filthy mattress in there. I'll revisit when you've cleaned it up a bit.

[Biggles]

Nothing I said intimated that I did, but in fact you're right, I do know what bukkake is. It was on my list of things to do before 30, but I couldn't find enough women willing to squirt all over Jonathan Rhys Meyers' face with me.


Is this a clever ruse where I'll answer yes and you'll kindly offer to see if I have anything to worry about if only I'd send you some pics.

Sometimes I think you're just not interested in my mind at all :snooty:

I've seen your mind; there's just an empty bottle of campari and a filthy mattress in there. I'll revisit when you've cleaned it up a bit.

:O Manker has had Changing Rooms in

[manker]

:o when were you in there!

This thread is violating my very being.

[Biggles]

:o when were you in there!

This thread is violating my very being.

But are you enjoying it :naughty:

[Squeamous]

:happy:

[chalice]

I lost a girlfriend over Henry Miller. True story.

[chalice]

Gee, chalice, that sounds ever so fascinating. Do elucidate.

Well, since you asked, it was half my life ago. I was a mere sprogling of 19, doing an English degree. There was I on my 19th birthday in the student's union, being pished and eyeing up anything with boobs who happened to stray into my vicinity. Long story short, I ended up with this first year med student called Edel. Some semblance of a relationship developed.

Turns out Edel was frigid beyond redemption and a complete fruitbat. She hailed from an isolated border town in Northern Ireland, and her mother had died in unfair circumstances the year before, leaving her ostensibly nursing the twin tragedies of her grieving country father and clueless little sister while endeavouring with the medical degree. This did little for my sex life, notwithstanding some obligatory cringe-worthy explorations, though I remained stoic, empathetic and above all, optimistic.

I was invited into the parental home, some months having passed, and was presented with the traditional parameters, ie. don't fuck my daughter under any circumstance and all that jizz. Didn't make much difference. I wasn't getting much anyway.

Now, I likes books, and I likes libraries. When an opportunity to visit a new library presents itself, I'm your man. Next best thing to a pub. So, off we swished to this terminally 70's Lego affair of a library in this sleepy yet contentious Northern Irish border town. Even at 19 I was sad and nerdy enough to get a thrill upon discovering this Henry Miller hardback I'd never even read about. I'd read the Tropics, of course, and loved it, but I'd never heard of Opus Pistorum. I borrowed it under her name, read snatches and went back home, leaving the tome.

Opus Pistorum is the most vile assemblage of words ever amassed within a single cover. It was written by Miller for a dollar a page when he was down on his luck for some Parisian pseudo-literary porn magazine, and included just about every permutation of debauched sex imaginable. Edel innocently left this on her family coffee table for her right-wing catholic father to pick up and peruse. I was labelled a degenerate and was never invited back. The relationship petered out a short time later.

[IdolEyes787]

Fascinating stuff ,do continue.

[Artemis]

Fascinating stuff ,do continue.

Nope, I think leaving the parisian pseudo-literary porn on the right-wing Catholic fathers coffee table pretty much ended the story. I still remember the meeting the folks days with the dad glowering malevolently at me and sending mental don't fuck my daughter under any circumstances waves of consciousness at me. I never left them any porn to peruse, it is an unusual touch..... :blink:

[megabyteme]

Yes, yes! Surely, there were many times you nearly got laid...

[Artemis]

Yes, yes! Surely, there were many times you nearly got laid...

Not sure who this is aimed at, but in my case the mind control from daddy never slowed me down one little bit, in fact I even nailed one of said daughters in the spa pool before dinner when meeting dad for the first time. :naughty:

[chalice]

Fascinating stuff ,do continue.

Nope, I think leaving the parisian pseudo-literary porn on the right-wing Catholic fathers coffee table pretty much ended the story. I still remember the meeting the folks days with the dad glowering malevolently at me and sending mental don't fuck my daughter under any circumstances waves of consciousness at me. I never left them any porn to peruse, it is an unusual touch..... :blink:

It wasn't my fault. She was the one who proved the invisible line between art and porn. Stupid bitch hadn't even read it. Her stupid Dad only ever looked at pictures.

Having said that, and having re-read Opus Pistorum (work of the miller) some years later, I reckon it should be burned. It panders to paedophiles.

[mjmacky]

Nope, I think leaving the parisian pseudo-literary porn on the right-wing Catholic fathers coffee table pretty much ended the story. I still remember the meeting the folks days with the dad glowering malevolently at me and sending mental don't fuck my daughter under any circumstances waves of consciousness at me. I never left them any porn to peruse, it is an unusual touch..... :blink:

It wasn't my fault. She was the one who proved the invisible line between art and porn. Stupid bitch hadn't even read it. Her stupid Dad only ever looked at pictures.

Having said that, and having re-read Opus Pistorum (work of the miller) some years later, I reckon it should be burned. It panders to paedophiles.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

[chalice]

It wasn't my fault. She was the one who proved the invisible line between art and porn. Stupid bitch hadn't even read it. Her stupid Dad only ever looked at pictures.

Having said that, and having re-read Opus Pistorum (work of the miller) some years later, I reckon it should be burned. It panders to paedophiles.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

I'm surprised you hadn't read it already.

[mjmacky]

I'm surprised you hadn't read it already.

I don't get around to talking to other pedophiles/pederasts. They're very creepy people.

[chalice]

I'm surprised you hadn't read it already.

I don't get around to talking to other pedophiles/pederasts.

How do you know?

[megabyteme]

Yes, yes! Surely, there were many times you nearly got laid...

Not sure who this is aimed at, but in my case the mind control from daddy never slowed me down one little bit, in fact I even nailed one of said daughters in the spa pool before dinner when meeting dad for the first time. :naughty:

Again you beat my post by a mere minute. I'm beginning to feel like the Brits in the Holy Grail. :(

[Artemis]

Not sure who this is aimed at, but in my case the mind control from daddy never slowed me down one little bit, in fact I even nailed one of said daughters in the spa pool before dinner when meeting dad for the first time. :naughty:

Again you beat my post by a mere minute. I'm beginning to feel like the Brits in the Holy Grail. :(

I fart in your general direction!

[mjmacky]

How do you know?

They're very creepy people.

[Squeamous]

It wasn't my fault. She was the one who proved the invisible line between art and porn. Stupid bitch hadn't even read it. Her stupid Dad only ever looked at pictures.

Having said that, and having re-read Opus Pistorum (work of the miller) some years later, I reckon it should be burned. It panders to paedophiles.

I'd never heard of that either. Tbh, I feel that way about Pulp by Bukowski. Every author has at least one abysmal book that should never have been published. It's the reverse in Chuck Palahniuk's case: every book apart from Fight Club should be burnt.

I think if I'd been the girl in your story, instead of dumping you I probably would have run off to America with you and gone about setting up a ranch in that massive 19th century land rush, although obviously problems would beset us at every turn, before we realised we were in love. Wait...I think that might be the plot of Far and Away. Gah, all you Irish look the same :unsure:.

[megabyteme]

I think if I'd been the girl in your story, instead of dumping you I probably would have run off to America with you and gone about setting up a ranch in that massive 19th century land rush, although obviously problems would beset us at every turn, before we realised we were in love. Wait...I think that might be the plot of Far and Away. Gah, all you Irish look the same :unsure:.

:lol: