Is Sia the new BitTorrent?

[elastictshirt]

I recently discovered Sia, and am a big fan. Sia is a cryptocurrency based cloud storage protocol for distributed cloud storage. In short: you pay a fee, upload your content which is then distributed to N different nodes on the Sia network (basically, other users on the network). Content is saved redundantly and encrypted. The cool thing is, with a short share code *anyone* can download *your* content from the network. *Except* they don't download it from you. Rather, they download it from the hosts (aka: users) on whose servers the content is stored. I really find it brilliant. It just seems the perfect file sharing tool to me.

Problem is that Sia is still in its early days. There isn't a portal for distributing share codes and such. However, the protocol and software is entirely open source, and there is a robust API with which to build new applications.

I am a developer who is tinkering with the idea of building a portal for sharing content on the Sia network. I would not really have an economic incentive to do so. I think so because history has taught us that centralized repositories of torrents, say, don't live very long. So, the code would have to be open source to make it easy for *anyone* to create their own portal.

I don't expect many here to have even heard of Sia. Still, I would like to gather some feedback from the file sharing community before diving into coding things for Sia.

First, as a starter, in the likely chance that you're not familiar with Sia, here's the GitHub repository:
https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia

The README there covers the basics on Sia. The people using Sia are mostly chatting in their forum at http://forum.sia.tech and on Bitcoin Talk (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060294).

My question to you folks are:
1) Does Sia complement existing file sharing protocols?
2) Does it have the potential to replace some of the existing protocols?
3) Uploading content to Sia requires payment with Siacoins (a cryptocurrency). The cost is generally well below other cloud storage providers, like Amazon and Dropbox. Still, given that you have to *pay to play* will this be a major obstacle for Sia to be adopted by the file sharing community?

I'd love to hear some thoughts on Sia in general on this forum. Feel free to ask, by PM or otherwise, if you have any questions.

[anon]

I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of this particular system, but this part:


you pay a fee, upload your content ...

Is unlikely to gain much sympathy (click here (http://filesharingtalk.com/threads/458204-JoyStream-torrent-client-with-paid-seeding) to see how a similar idea triggers highly negative comments). Most filesharers aren't keen on seeing it monetized, especially in such a direct manner.

With that said, people do pay for seedboxes, so.

[elastictshirt]

I see what you mean!

Well, I guess in that case it would be helpful to explain the payment mechanism of Sia.

First to note is that the currency used for payment on the Sia network (Siacoin) is not controlled by any one entity (i.e. it is not centralized). Siacoin is mined like bitcoin (and, there was no pre-mine). You can also earn Siacoin by sharing your own local storage. So, you could use the Siacoins earned to pay for storage on the network. Note how you pay the other users on the network. The other users, like yourself, would be renting out their storage and be paid the Siacoins that you paid. Vice versa: when they store stuff on your drives, you get paid. Renting out your local storage is voluntary, and independent of whether you upload or not. If you do not earn Siacoin by mining (using the graphics card on your PC), or rent out storage space, you need to buy your Siacoins on an exchange.

Once content has been uploaded, however, it can be shared with an unlimited number of people at no additional cost. Storage costs vary (as hosts set their own price) and are currently 0.5 US cent/GB or less.

Mind you; Sia was not created for file sharing *per se* (as the idea you linked to was). It is being created primarily for facilitating a very low cost cloud storage network for large enterprises. The idea is to utilize empty space of everyone's harddrives, and rent that space out for cost less than Amazon, Dropbox etc. It so turns out, though, that Sia has some very nice file sharing features as well, which I mentioned earlier.

EDIT: Finally I should add that hosting torrents isn't free either...

[mjmacky]

With that said, people do pay for seedboxes, so.

I'm people, and I've been people for over a year now. Seeding was a burden, and accidentally wiping a drive in my NAS was another burden. I gladly pay for the convenience of relieving myself of that burden.

Presently, if I gave up my seedbox, I'd have no way to download anything. My internet service is so fucking spotty that I'd probably be up to my scalp in HnRs.

16 KBps is hell. The worst of it is that I rely on that same connection for my income.

[IdolEyes787]

Invalid point. My livelihood depends on me being charming and you don't see me making any concessions to that.

As for my opinion about Sia, I find her to be a great singer but it's a little weird how she needs to have that half naked little girl in all her videos.

Before you get angry, don't tell me that we all weren't thinking that.

[mjmacky]

Invalid point. My livelihood depends on me being charming and you don't see me making any concessions to that.

As for my opinion about Sia, I find her to be a great singer but it's a little weird how she needs to have that half naked little girl in all her videos.

Before you get angry, don't tell me that we all weren't thinking that.
I really don't care for any of her songs, and the little girl could be hotter and more naked.

[STHNSv3]

My question to you folks are:
1) Does Sia complement existing file sharing protocols?
2) Does it have the potential to replace some of the existing protocols?
3) Uploading content to Sia requires payment with Siacoins (a cryptocurrency). The cost is generally well below other cloud storage providers, like Amazon and Dropbox. Still, given that you have to *pay to play* will this be a major obstacle for Sia to be adopted by the file sharing community?


1) No Sia does not anyway complement FILE SHARING. But then again thats more of an opinion as you need to understand the history and terminology of it. As most people when they say FILE SHARING they refer to as P2P(1G/2G/3G) and its mostly free and not associated with money. The concept of file sharing as I don't need to tell you is very old but the definition has changed and is up for users discretion.

2) Sia will not even have 1% of total digital bandwidth footprint of global p2p traffic. If someone where to release stats from major MPLS and break down the bandwidth by network you wouldn't see its protocol footprint. You will however see HTTP, Torrent and other p2p.

3) Remember RapidShare? They also had these type of idea where you would upload and if users download then owner gets points and they trade it for full member with faster bandwidth and storage. If I were to convert to Sia and upload 7000 files now close to 500GB which is public for me how much would it cost? And how would I distribute it? You need to also consider the platform as its also the method of delivery. User discovery is what keeps p2p platform alive. The biggest flaw with torrent is also its greatest strength.

[elastictshirt]

1) No Sia does not anyway complement FILE SHARING. . .

I have not thought deeply about the semantics of file sharing. But if you can SHARE FILES through the protocol, then that is FILE SHARING by my definition. I totally understand the aversion against paying for content, i.e. its the very reason people share in the first file (to avoid paying). It is very salient that you pay when using Sia. BUT it is also important to understand how much you pay, what you are paying for, and who receives that money (more about that below).

Still, would you not agree that 'traditional' p2p isn't free either? Its mostly the seeders that pay the burden, by paying for hosting/storage, electricity and asymmetric bandwidth consumption. I've never come across a 'file sharing calculator'. Is there such a thing, and has anyone ever calculated the cost of hosting uploads over a period of time?


3) Remember RapidShare? They also had these type of idea where you would upload and if users download then owner gets points and they trade it for full member with faster bandwidth and storage. If I were to convert to Sia and upload 7000 files now close to 500GB which is public for me how much would it cost? And how would I distribute it? You need to also consider the platform as its also the method of delivery. User discovery is what keeps p2p platform alive. The biggest flaw with torrent is also its greatest strength.

There is a big difference between RapidShare (and similar providers) and Sia as the latter is decentralized: Sia is a p2p protocol, not a provider. There is no Sia Inc.

You're right about discoverability. There are currently no repositories of shared content of Sia, hence my post, as I'm interested in (read: am) developing one.

The cost of of uploading 500 GB at todays exchange rates would be about 65,000 Siacoins, which equates to about $1 - one - USD. Your files are then stored for ~6 weeks on the network, after which they need to be renewed (and you'll have to pay again). Sharing/downloading is free. Content is stored encrypted, and Reed-Solomon error correction is built into the protocol to ensure files can be retrieved even if a large proportion of the network goes down. The cost you pay goes to the owners of the hosts where your content is stored. If you rent out your own space, you could of course earn the Siacoins you needed to upload (though only at a rate of 20% as your content is duplicated 5 times over when you upload, to ensure redundancy).

The Sia whitepaper is here if you want more details on the technical/algorithmic implementation:
http://sia.tech/whitepaper.pdf

[mjmacky]

todays exchange rates would be about 65,000 Siacoins, which equates to about $1 - one - USD.

The liracoin. No, the pesocoin.

Well, let's get down to the juicy nut of it. What drives your interest? Are you soliciting advice about financial investments, or has your curiosity been piqued such that you want to get involved so long as it doesn't seem a wasted effort? Those are leading questions, so I'll only accept answers askew. You have demonstrated capability of critical thought and are well enough worded, so I don't think I've made too extravagant of an inquiry. What's your goal?

[STHNSv3]

todays exchange rates would be about 65,000 Siacoins, which equates to about $1 - one - USD.

The liracoin. No, the pesocoin.

Well, let's get down to the juicy nut of it. What drives your interest? Are you soliciting advice about financial investments, or has your curiosity been piqued such that you want to get involved so long as it doesn't seem a wasted effort? Those are leading questions, so I'll only accept answers askew. You have demonstrated capability of critical thought and are well enough worded, so I don't think I've made too extravagant of an inquiry. What's your goal?

Leading question is why do you care? Last I checked and as I addressed this before you sit in file sharing forum and you share nothing nor you do nothing. But you seem to just drive up your silly post count to get free UseNET daily downloads. Learn something then get involved and start something.



Hive Division - Metal Gear Solid Philanthropy (The Land Where Truth Was Born).mp4 (116.35 MB)
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[mjmacky]

Leading question is why do you care? Last I checked and as I addressed this before you sit in file sharing forum and you share nothing nor you do nothing. But you seem to just drive up your silly post count to get free UseNET daily downloads. Learn something then get involved and start something.

I haven't fondled a newsgroup in a few years.

I will do conversation with someone who can carry one on without making me want to jam a corkscrew through my taint. Besides chasing you off the first time, this is why I stopped engaging you directly. I'll revisit you after your next 20 embarrassing posts when I've had a chance to rebuild my patience meter. I'm openly evaluating this SiaPet person. So, shoo. Off with you now.

[IdolEyes787]

Woah.STDSv3 hasn't had to endure that much condescension since he made the mistake of trying to sit at the mean girl's table in the lunchroom.

[STHNSv3]

I haven't fondled a newsgroup in a few years.

I will do conversation with someone who can carry one on without making me want to jam a corkscrew through my taint. Besides chasing you off the first time, this is why I stopped engaging you directly. I'll revisit you after your next 20 embarrassing posts when I've had a chance to rebuild my patience meter. I'm openly evaluating this SiaPet person. So, shoo. Off with you now.

That's coming from the guy who posts and posts and posts but never says anything worthwhile. I find it very comical as you say: "I'm openly evaluating this SiaPet person." so do tell us what are those credentials that gave you this delusion where you think your evaluating someone who knows more on the general subject of file sharing than you do. Hell I may need to post 20x as you didn't get it last time after the first 20x.


Woah.STDSv3 hasn't had to endure that much condescension since he made the mistake of trying to sit at the mean girl's table in the lunchroom.

Once again the obsession with kids continues. How often are you more confused than MGay? both of you worthless spammers bring nothing to FST other than bandwidth waste.



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[IdolEyes787]

Mjmacky brings his wit so in that sense he brings exactly twice what you do.

I mean as someone who actually pays attention to what is said by people here, your "insult" about me being obsessed with children was even stolen from what said about you on your initial foray here.

If you are intellectually bankrupt enough be be unable to come up with something original and you are going to steal, at least make it better material.

[STHNSv3]

Let me guess just because you said so I post to take it serious? IdiotEye sorry to burst your bubble but you nor MGay brings anything other than worth piss/shit to FST. I take things as is and so far I seen you try to derail threads as you lack basic knowledge regarding every subject but with your countless post after post not related to the thread to drive your worthless account post count.

I'll say it again what did you do in FST that is so great? Show me 3 posts you made that remotely informative as I have stated over and over to which the concepts eludes you even now, is that something common among Canadians being dull? Which networking and scene do you belong in?

PS: Who is babbling about kids? YOU. Who post video of kids? YOU. Both of you worthless fags should logout and never log back in all you faggots do is try to derail threads over and over since you lack common sense and both of you are computer illiterates.



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[mjmacky]

I'm pretty sure the context clearly indicated that character was the subject. I guess those with none can't pick up on that so easily.

[IdolEyes787]

IdiotEye sorry to burst your bubble but you nor MGay brings anything other than worth piss/shit to FST. I take things as is and so far I seen you try to derail threads as you lack basic knowledge regarding every subject but with your countless post after post not related to the thread to drive your worthless account post count.

I'll say it again what did you do in FST that is so great? Show me 3 posts you made that remotely informative as I have stated over and over to which the concepts eludes you even now, is that something common among Canadians being dull? Which networking and scene do you belong in?


What you seem unable or unwilling to comprehend is that someone's relative worth is not a sole function of what use they are to you or how much they happen to agree with you.That beyond anything else is what makes you an asshole.

Although if I had any inclination I could ...let's see as it stand you have 83 posts....quite easily show 83 posts that are more "worthwhile" ,using your dubious definition of worthwhile, than your dimwitted and self-serving ones. :mellow:


... and both of you are computer illiterates.

It just shows how utterly out of touch with the reality of the situation you are if you think that is remotely insulting to me,Poindexter.

Just don't say that my position on the bike lacks refinement or that my pedaling lacks all sense of souplesse because that really gets me going.:@

Btw correct me if I'm wrong regarding mjmacky's original post, but the fish wanting to know if there's a hook at the end of the line isn't an unreasonable request.

[STHNSv3]

Alright lets burst that Canadian bubble again.


Yes, sure you can. There is endless free service out there which allows you to do so and ranges from different types of connection.

1) VPN: You can access many 1GB/RxTx public PPTP/L2TP network as its mostly common for free users without registration. Just be aware that it depends on the Admin if they want to monitor or sharp traffic based on their own guideline. For example block Torrent or have QoS enabled for prioritizing packets based on DPI/SPI. Most of the free service range from FULL/LIMITED anonymity as they might log or redirect since they run on AD based revenue. Since bandwidth is not cheap since giving away free as promotional for abuse. On the other hand you can buy VPN access which is like $4-5USD a month with full anonymity, but since you PAID for it then it can be subpoenaed as you don't have access to connection logs. You can also buy VPS which goes for same price and enable PPTP access by turning tun/tap and then installing free Access Server like OpenVPN. Since you run it on your own remote server you have full autonomy access to everything, as only your knowledge is your limit.

2) Proxy: Same as free VPN you can find virtually ENDLESS socks4/5 proxies which will also be limited and mostly they do same record basic packets depends on the admin. Mostly just basic http queries and redirects to sell you their sponsored goods. You can find some good proxies time to time which is full but they mostly die since eftards use them to upload CP into 4chan or route traffic via DarkNET. Same as VPN you can get paid proxies or run your own on VPS for example SS5.

3) I2P/TOR: Now this is not advised for fools as IP's are leaked and gov has and still actively planting nodes to discover users. Also I don't recommend it as you will just put burden on the network trying to be anon when i'm sure there is nothing you possibly do that will require being "anonymous" other than trying to download some queerbait contents like gayporn/cp. But yes you can use i2p outproxies and tor bridge to act as bridge to route traffic.

Or do what I do access via wireless and reroute traffic. You CAN be anonymous if you know enough in networking, but that is if your wiling to stand by few rules and stay out of radar. They can and will find you depends on what your doing but only THE big brother has that type of resource.

That's example of one of my "83 posts that are more worthwhile" so go ahead and show me one of yours, ill wait. You sit there day after day like dolt faggot and you lack basic understanding. Notice how you and MGay just derailed this thread? Both of you worthless computer illiterate faggots know nothing. Which is very clear in this OP's thread where you both remotely showed you had any clue regarding this thread, wait you want more general bashing? This is FileSharingTalk show me in how many post you ever said anything about file sharing.

PS: Both of you are 100% useless, you can't help anyone here or direct them to anyone that does know anything related to any topic. What you CAN do is drive your worthless post count by cluttering the forum. Can you tell me the IPv4 address of FileSharingTalk?

[IdolEyes787]

I'm honestly starting to believe that you weren't so much born as rather the result of this giant gaseous ball of stupid going supernova.

Anyway since apparently fair is fair, I'll or as you like to drool "ill" stop derailing threads when they stop boring the fuck out of me.

[mjmacky]

I've yet to comment on this strange phenomenon. I've seen the dim reference post count many a times. I failed to appreciate just how different it is growing up in the post Internet world, where forums are viewed as proving grounds rather than just another medium for conversation.

Then again, every generation would have some bizarre idiosyncrasies related to how idiots adapt to changes in technology.

[IdolEyes787]

PS: Both of you are 100% useless, you can't help anyone here or direct them to anyone that does know anything related to any topic. What you CAN do is drive your worthless post count by cluttering the forum. Can you tell me the IPv4 address of FileSharingTalk?

I'm not denying that we all spend time doing things that are at best a total waste of time and at worst actually harmful.

With me it's posting on FST and with you it's using one of those penis enlarging machines.:mellow:

[elastictshirt]

Well, let's get down to the juicy nut of it. What drives your interest?

Besides what drives every other mortal on this planet?


Are you soliciting advice about financial investments, or ...

No, I am not seeking advice about financial investments. Please read my first post for questions. Of course, like every other altcoin out there, you can 'invest' in Siacoins. I would not, however, simply because the coin has an extremely high inflationary rate: something like 40 million Siacoins are mined each day. The high number of coins is required, basically because you want everyone out there to be able to store and pay for files down to single bytes.

The Siacoin should be treated solely as an intermediate to pay for storage that you use on the Sia network. You buy/mine/earn the Siacoins you need to store your own files. The Siacoin is required for payments (by design) as there is no pure decentralized way of handling payments/payouts between hosts and renters on such a decentralized network. Still, if you possess enough Siacoins at a critical juncture when user-adoption suddenly goes exponential you stand to make a good buck. But for that to happen, your timing and investment has to be just right. Gamble at your own risk.

Also, let me be clear that Siacoin is not just another shit-, aka scam-, coin. It is created (in fact, required) for a specific application, unlike the vast majority of other cryptocurrencies out there. Although it is different, you could of course profit from trading it, just as you could (theoretically...) be buying up every single hard-drive in the world and then let them trickle back out on the market at hugely inflated prices. What can not be traded?

I was hoping to learn something on this forum. I'm making my posts deliberately long, and hopefully educational, since I would you all to appreciate what Sia is and what it could enable. Without even the basic pre-requisite knowledge of what blockchains, bitcoin and Sia is, I think it would be difficult to solicit any kind of advice here. With your experience, I could figure out how to approach this in the most productive manner.

STHNSv3 contributed with some insightful thoughts about what filesharing is (or, made me think about it). It also made me think the title of this thread (Is Sia the new BitTorrent?) is terribly naive. Of course it's not! Sia will never replace BitTorrent, or other means of p2p filesharing. Sia is too inconvenient for that. For a starter, you need to procure Siacoins to finance your uploads. For now, you'll also have to deal with clients that are under-developed and lacking in features (though things are moving rapidly forward in that respect).

Sia was not developed for file-sharing per se, though it seems a perfect application for it. I think now, however, that due to issues with discoverability of files, procurement of Siacoins (and possibly other factors) Sia will not be readily adopted for file-sharing in the near-future. Still, having given this some thought, I think Sia can fill a niche, namely as a protocol for anonymous broadcasting and distribution of content. But for that to happen, other tools are required as Sia alone does not provide a method to broadcast your content to other users. The solution I have settled on is a combination of BitMessage and Sia. Briefly, BitMessage will be used for encrypted, anonymous p2p broadcasting of content (basically, 'share codes'). The BitMessage component will be running as a server (possibly as multiple nodes). Sia, via a plugin that I'm writing, will broadcast share codes to these servers via HTTPS. People that want complete obfuscation of their identities will have to either run the BitMessage server component (and BitMessage itself) locally, or connect to the BitMessage server component remotely via Tor/VPN etc. The next step is for the Sia plugin to simply connect to the BitMessage server component to retrieve lists of broadcast Sia share codes. The user then adds these share codes locally and can then download the content from the p2p Sia network, anonymously and for free.

The implementation above, I think, will provide a real alternative for file-sharers that want/need complete end-to-end encryption of content (via Sia) and the ability to hide their identies when using Sia to share files (via BitMessage). The solution is very simple, and for the end-user even simpler: they would just have to deal with the Sia client plus a plugin with a (hopefully) well-designed UI.

I have made some progress writing the BitMessage server component. Broadcasting content works, and I've set the component up as a RESTful HTTPS API (so other clients besides my plugin could connect too, e.g. web-services, trackers etcs). I still have to write up the Sia plugin and some other parts.


... has your curiosity been piqued such that you want to get involved so long as it doesn't seem a wasted effort? Those are leading questions, so I'll only accept answers askew. ... What's your goal?

There is a general crackdown on online encryption and privacy from left and right. If I can enable some positive reaction to these tendencies, and enable people to share and communicate in privacy then it has not been 'wasted effort'. I think the implementation above will achieve what I'm aiming for. Also, due to the way Sia stores file on the network (distributed + encrypted) it will be impossible for hosts to know what content they're hosting. Takedowns will become virtually impossible.

As always, feedback and questions from this community are welcome as this is still work-in-progress.

[mjmacky]

... has your curiosity been piqued such that you want to get involved so long as it doesn't seem a wasted effort? Those are leading questions, so I'll only accept answers askew. ... What's your goal?

There is a general crackdown on online encryption and privacy from left and right. If I can enable some positive reaction to these tendencies, and enable people to share and communicate in privacy then it has not been 'wasted effort'. I think the implementation above will achieve what I'm aiming for. Also, due to the way Sia stores file on the network (distributed + encrypted) it will be impossible for hosts to know what content they're hosting. Takedowns will become virtually impossible.

As always, feedback and questions from this community are welcome as this is still work-in-progress.

Mostly I aim to avoid speaking to a brick wall or aiding in a nefarious scheme. Actually, that's not completely true. I would be entirely satisfied speaking to a brick wall as long as I can hear myself. In any case, I scale my response to match your effort to clarify your intentions.



My question to you folks are:
1) Does Sia complement existing file sharing protocols?
2) Does it have the potential to replace some of the existing protocols?
3) Uploading content to Sia requires payment with Siacoins (a cryptocurrency). The cost is generally well below other cloud storage providers, like Amazon and Dropbox. Still, given that you have to *pay to play* will this be a major obstacle for Sia to be adopted by the file sharing community?

1) It's development aims to compete with centralized storage services. In its current state, it seems like a temporary alternative (short term file storage). These contracts are enforced, but I can only deduce that it's a downloading and financial enforcement strategy, and at lower price points, that wouldn't be a strong motivator to restart the client or keep it running if you aren't utilizing the service. Therefore, reliable and persistent storage would require a very healthy population of users; otherwise I can envision the departure of many uninterested users causing the deprecation of many files. In any case, it's standalone, so it wouldn't need to complement other types of storage/filesharing methods.

2) The literal question would have a moot response since replacement isn't how things have worked. It's generally a transition or shift of usage, but the older methods remain. So, I think the real question you're asking is whether or not it can attract users who utilize central storage solutions or other popular filesharing methods. In order for that to happen on the demand side, you need to create an environment that makes it easy to test. At its present stage of development, that's just not going to happen because the client is still in beta, it runs command line, and requires an initial investment. So, you'd have to build a user base from the supply side. What I mean by that an entity hosting desired content like programs or media (whether legal or pirated) would make the content only accessible through this protocol.

3) Yes, this is an obstacle. More accurately, it is a gate. Consider how many gates a user has to pass to use this method of storage, and more importantly, the complexity of each gate. With the bittorrent protocol, you need a client and a small file to access the desired content. With a data hosting service, you need a browser and a standard method of payment. In the case of Sia, you need a command line client, a conversion of currency, and a standing commitment to continued use. I'm someone who has 0.000000 bitcoins because it seemed too much of an effort to farm, earn, or buy them out of pure curiosity. So, getting past the new gate created by the Sia protocol depends on how easy it is to purchase your initial share of Siacoins. If I had to absolutely use bitcoins for something, then I'd follow through with one of the methods. This is why I mentioned a supply side approach to expanding the protocol. Sure, people are willingly dumb, but all humans are potentially resourceful, so creating a requirement could force users through the more complicated steps so long as a guide exists and there's something desirable on the other end. Growth gets a lot easier once that large pill is swallowed.

Visionary questions get visionary responses, which may have little worth, but I hope you could extract some insight.