Brexit

[Something Else]

Can't trust this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI87PRgIKks

[j2k4]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

[shaina]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

I could give you a list of negative things the EU has brought to the UK, but for reasons of being attacked by left wing nutjobs or better yet Jeremy Corbyn voters/cult. Or start a true debate that the one that will hurt much more on the split is the EU;)

I will pass on the subject, other than saying i think it will be great for the UK to get rid of the EU for many, many, many reasons;)

[Caballero]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

[shaina]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

Try finding a paper that isn't left wing to support your narrative?? Like i said what is the worry?? Let them go and fail then especially if you think it will hurt the UK more than the EU;)

It was almost like i called you out, or you never would have posted what you did Cabby, but again i still luv ya buddy;)

True story for you about Canada Cabby.... There has been a few votes on Quebec trying to separate from Canada.. Now the majority of Canadians don't give 2 shits if they leave, but if they do, they are to pay back all of there Debt owing to Canada and all the military bases, would also be removed from there province, that is lost revenue plus subsidies they get from the Government. Guess what Cabby, Quebec is still a province of Canada;)

What is the UK going to lose if they leave?? Going back and forth, they still will deal with the EU, but just have borders and control who comes into there Country??

What is going to change?? What am i missing?? There should be borders on every large Country in Europe to control and protect there citizens, you don't agree with that??

That would be an interesting answer to that question if you are willing too:). I am not sure how you feel about open borders??

Do you agree with this Cabby,,, If Corbyn wins in the upcoming election it will answer some questions about Brexit??

Edit: Crickets on response from who i would say the most knowledgeable person here about Europe

Go figure....

[Barbarossa]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/

[Barbarossa]

What is the UK going to lose if they leave?? Going back and forth, they still will deal with the EU, but just have borders and control who comes into there Country??


We already have borders and control on who comes into our country, because we used our veto and opted out of the Schengen area. You CANNOT get into the UK without a passport, even from continental Europe.

It's a complete myth we don't have border controls, hence the reason people have to resort to trying to sneak in via lorries and dinghies.

The trouble is, people cannot seem to distinguish in their minds between illegal immigrants and the legal immigration that is required to plug skills shortages, e.g. doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, etc. (Yes, it seems UK-born people are incapable of picking fruit, hence why millions of apples have rotted away on trees this year, because of a shortage of EU migrant workers!)

I think it's a language thing. Incomers to this country are always referred to as "migrants", however isn't it strange how people from this country who go and retire in Spain for example are referred to as "ex-pats"...

This whole "uncontrolled immigration" trope is a complete lie. The strain on public services is not caused by immigration, it's caused by the aging native population not dying off.

The "Boomers" clinging on to life after they've ruined the world for the rest of us... nice one. *slow hand-clap*

But people are so thick they believe anything the right-wing press spoon-feeds them.

[shaina]

Someone tell me precisely what the EU has done - in it's entire history - for the UK?

https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/remain-eu/

Interesting what about showing both sides??


https://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit-0


https://briefingsforbrexit.com/ten-reasons-that-justify-the-uks-decision-to-leave-the-european-union/


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/17-reasons-why-we-should-love-brexit/

And there is lots more if you want ;)

[shaina]

What is the UK going to lose if they leave?? Going back and forth, they still will deal with the EU, but just have borders and control who comes into there Country??


We already have borders and control on who comes into our country, because we used our veto and opted out of the Schengen area. You CANNOT get into the UK without a passport, even from continental Europe.

It's a complete myth we don't have border controls, hence the reason people have to resort to trying to sneak in via lorries and dinghies.

The trouble is, people cannot seem to distinguish in their minds between illegal immigrants and the legal immigration that is required to plug skills shortages, e.g. doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, etc. (Yes, it seems UK-born people are incapable of picking fruit, hence why millions of apples have rotted away on trees this year, because of a shortage of EU migrant workers!)

I think it's a language thing. Incomers to this country are always referred to as "migrants", however isn't it strange how people from this country who go and retire in Spain for example are referred to as "ex-pats"...

This whole "uncontrolled immigration" trope is a complete lie. The strain on public services is not caused by immigration, it's caused by the aging native population not dying off.

The "Boomers" clinging on to life after they've ruined the world for the rest of us... nice one. *slow hand-clap*

But people are so thick they believe anything the right-wing press spoon-feeds them.

So when you travel by car/ferry there is borders?? Do you have by chance a link you could show me??

And when people work in a different country, do they usually have to have papers/green card of employment?? I know if you want to work in the US or Canada from another country you do, Revenue Canada or the IRS usually requires that??

Again that is not EU regulations that show in your link??

Right wing Left wing and many in the middle right?? Like every democratic country Barbarossa, and the middle may have views they like on either side, now you pick the ones close to your views right.. There is no such thing as saying ya my parents or family voted for that party there whole life now, party views have changed drastically!!!. You really do have to look at there policies...
And the truth knowing just by any media you choose, there is a big problem with illegal immigration in the UK, because of zero borders, so you saying there is a kind of strict border, how are they getting in so easy?? Or you are ok with it??

If you remember reading about the left in the US saying there was no problem at there borders, and when they went to visit they saw something different?? Or in Canada the stress it is putting on our so called social benefits??

The same with the difference in parties in the UK?? Not sure who you want, but myself i prefer a Moderate Conservative, party not a Socialists open border let all the crap in the Country one??

Again not disrespecting who you prefer i am just giving you my view points that i read in between the lines of the media reporting....

All true citizens should be protected and taken care of first, in any country....

PS.. Here is an interesting question Barbarossa for you...When you ever here the word "Union" in anything controlled?? Do you think it benefits the people?? Or the people controlling the Union??

And if you have no problems with the EU or Immigration in the UK?? Why was Brexit even invented??

And as i said in my other post, soon you will see if the people of the UK want Brexit or floods of immigration ??

183678

[IdolEyes787]

And as i said in my other post, soon you will see if the people of the UK want Brexit or floods of immigration ??

ie coloured folk in plain English.

I may be stupid or misguided but least my viewpoints aren't entirely based around greed and racism, Tucker.

[Barbarossa]

So when you travel by car/ferry there is borders?? Do you have by chance a link you could show me??


No. But I know for a fact if I drive to Dover right now and ask for tickets on a ferry to France, I'm going nowhere without showing them a passport. And in case you were wondering, you literally need some form of identification to travel from the mainland GB to Northern Ireland by ferry or plane, and they're supposed to be two parts of the same country!



And the truth knowing just by any media you choose, there is a big problem with illegal immigration in the UK, because of zero borders, so you saying there is a kind of strict border, how are they getting in so easy?? Or you are ok with it??


I'm saying there is a strict border. That's why people hide in lorries. That's why people risk their lives on inflatable boats. There is a problem with illegal immigration, but it's not as massive a problem as the media likes to make out.



And if you have no problems with the EU or Immigration in the UK?? Why was Brexit even invented??


Two words. Tax avoidance. The whole thing (Brexit) is a massive con-trick. It's not going to make life any better for the average man in the street. In fact it'll make things a heck of a lot harder.

[shaina]

I may be stupid or misguided but least my viewpoints aren't entirely based around racism, Tucker.

Lets not go back to quite a few of your posts here ok Lemon:D


Question?? what does illegal immigration have to do with greed and racism??

[shaina]

No. But I know for a fact if I drive to Dover right now and ask for tickets on a ferry to France, I'm going nowhere without showing them a passport. And in case you were wondering, you literally need some form of identification to travel from the mainland GB to Northern Ireland by ferry or plane, and they're supposed to be two parts of the same country!

why is that never reported anywhere is interesting, plane i could understand for sure, but a ferry?? what about the tunnel Barbarossa??


I'm saying there is a strict border. That's why people hide in lorries. That's why people risk their lives on inflatable boats. There is a problem with illegal immigration, but it's not as massive a problem as the media likes to make out.

No a strict border would have caught that truck/lorries full of immigrants that died, that went through how many European countries and was never caught or inspected?? I think we have a different interpretation of security borders..

Every truck or boat that tries to cross country lines is inspected or has to have the proper shipping papers or it ain't getting into the country, plus there is inspection station on main highways that the trucks must stop at if they are open, that is security, and borders......




Two words. Tax avoidance. The whole thing (Brexit) is a massive con-trick. It's not going to make life any better for the average man in the street. In fact it'll make things a heck of a lot harder.

Tax avoidance, who?? Again how do you know if it is going to be better or worse?? I see positives and negatives reported and opinions on both, i don't see anything on Tax avoidance even on left wing news reporting, mainly reporting on again ease of travelling in and out of the UK, and getting stricter on the immigration troubles, and taking over towns not allowing and diversity, and controlling there own finances and who they want to trade with?? So that is false reporting on many different news outlets??

Again i assume you are on the ground there, so hearing from you will usually be more accurate than reading news Barbarossa. That is depending on who you are voting for in the election?? That also makes your viewpoints different right.

[Caballero]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

Try finding a paper that isn't left wing to support your narrative?? Like i said what is the worry?? Let them go and fail then especially if you think it will hurt the UK more than the EU;)

It was almost like i called you out, or you never would have posted what you did Cabby, but again i still luv ya buddy;)

True story for you about Canada Cabby.... There has been a few votes on Quebec trying to separate from Canada.. Now the majority of Canadians don't give 2 shits if they leave, but if they do, they are to pay back all of there Debt owing to Canada and all the military bases, would also be removed from there province, that is lost revenue plus subsidies they get from the Government. Guess what Cabby, Quebec is still a province of Canada;)

What is the UK going to lose if they leave?? Going back and forth, they still will deal with the EU, but just have borders and control who comes into there Country??

What is going to change?? What am i missing?? There should be borders on every large Country in Europe to control and protect there citizens, you don't agree with that??

That would be an interesting answer to that question if you are willing too:). I am not sure how you feel about open borders??

Do you agree with this Cabby,,, If Corbyn wins in the upcoming election it will answer some questions about Brexit??

Edit: Crickets on response from who i would say the most knowledgeable person here about Europe

Go figure....

The Financial Times is about as left-wing as The Wall Street Journal. Just sayin'...

Fact is, free trade within the EU is growing the economy. Conversely, if the UK is leaving the EU, it's pretty much guaranteed that their economy is going to contract, with all the associated impacts on employment and living standards.

But, hey, I am sure that's worth it. Rule Britannia!

As for Corbyn, I don't follow UK politics closely enough to have an opinion on him and what he stands for (or, apparently, doesn't). I don't vote over there, so I can't say that I really give a rat's ass about specific people.

[shaina]

The Financial Times is about as left-wing as The Wall Street Journal. Just sayin'...

No disagreement there Cabby, but i check out all the news sites and then read in the middle and hopefully that is the truth, that is unless i know people on the ground where i am inquiring about;). That's why i laugh when people here think i only get my news from Fox:D


Fact is, free trade within the EU is growing the economy. Conversely, if the UK is leaving the EU, it's pretty much guaranteed that their economy is going to contract, with all the associated impacts on employment and living standards.

But, hey, I am sure that's worth it. Rule Britannia!

Hey i don't disagree with you there, it was the same with that pound/dollar when Brexit was voted on, again that bounced back right...

That is my point all along, there will be some setbacks, but not it is how long it takes to bounce back right, and then the positives for Brexit will start right away. It is strange that Barbarossa says there is some sort of Border structure in the UK , i know the majority of the EU countries don't have that??


As for Corbyn, I don't follow UK politics closely enough to have an opinion on him and what he stands for (or, apparently, doesn't). I don't vote over there, so I can't say that I really give a rat's ass about specific people.

Well not giving a Rats ass about specific people, still he is the head of the party right, so he is the front man for the policies of the party, but i do understand what you are saying for sure, and really it does come down to the party and how they want to run the country, truly i think you might like there policies, but not the baggage of controversy that comes with it:D..

I just figured you would see some news/info, on the sites you go to from Europe on the whole.(you know i see info where i go;). And i would think there is some effect how a country feels about the EU when they are a part of it??

Thanks for the response buddy, it is always appreciated.

[Caballero]

GBP / USD exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 1.467791

GBP / USD exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 1.316335

That's an 11% decrease.

GBP / EUR exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 1.300594

GBP / EUR exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 1.185596

That's a 9% decrease.

GBP / JPY exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 153.459493

GBP / JPY exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 143.079307

That's a 7% decrease.

Sure, that pound bounced right back...

[shaina]

GBP / USD exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 1.467791

GBP / USD exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 1.316335

That's an 11% decrease.

GBP / EUR exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 1.300594

GBP / EUR exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 1.185596

That's a 9% decrease.

GBP / JPY exchange rate on June 22, 2016: 153.459493

GBP / JPY exchange rate on Dec 5, 2019: 143.079307

That's a 7% decrease.

Sure, that pound bounced right back...

Compared to what it was?? It was really in the toilet!!!... Again what ever happens happens, like you said what the fuck is the difference, it is not going to hurt the EU right ;)...

And depending on the coming election, there either will be a Brexit or not:happy:

I can tell you they reported our jobs report in Canada, it was in the toilet big time, How was the report in the US buddy??;)

[j2k4]

I lit a fuse.

Heh.

[shaina]

I lit a fuse.

Heh.

Nice you lit the fuse, now i think you got some info to study from both sides ,what is your opinion on Brexit??

What do you think??..

And my thoughts and prayers goes out to the American lives lost and injured in Pensacola J2K4.

[j2k4]

At first glance, I'm leaning toward concluding the "info" is akin to what our domestic Dems are referring to as "irrefutable evidence supporting impeachment".

Essentially, certain people want a European Union to kneel in supplication before their Globalist intent.


Thank you for your thoughts and prayers - my nephew recently retired from Naval service at Pensacola.

Events there are going to result in more horse-fucking around about foreign nationals on our shores...sure doesn't aid the case for immigration, either.

[shaina]

183689

183690

[Gribley]

Yep we've dumped on our currency big time but the whole point (as far as I know - being a half-wit English bloke) was to get rid of the EU courts and them having rules over our elected joke of a party (Boris you are so cool, just like Donald)

[shaina]

Yep we've dumped on our currency big time but the whole point (as far as I know - being a half-wit English bloke) was to get rid of the EU courts and them having rules over our elected joke of a party (Boris you are so cool, just like Donald)

It amazes me Gribley that everyone has a different meaning on what Brexit is?? The question still stands, and you are on the ground there, is leaving the EU going to affect you in a positive or negative way:idunno:..

And Cabby showing your currency price dropped and it was way worse, did it affect you personally, if you don't mind me asking??

And it is great to see ya buddy, alive and kicking as usual ;)

[Gribley]

is leaving the EU going to affect you in a positive or negative way:idunno:..


All change has ups and downs.

[Caballero]

And Cabby showing your currency price dropped and it was way worse, did it affect you personally, if you don't mind me asking??

If he wanted to go to Spain for his winter vacation, chances are it affects him very much since the devaluation of the pound makes his trip more expensive. if he likes to stay in Yorkshire, maybe not so much. Unless there are a whole bunch of Americans who like to take advantage of their cheaper vacation options and cause the hotel rooms in Yorkshire to become more expensive (supply/demand you know), so then, yes, even then he'd be affected.

Those bananas he likes to eat for breakfast? Imported, which means more expensive. That replacement part for his BMW that he needs? Imported, so more expensive.

Those bankers who got laid off in the city? Drawing unemployment and not contributing to her majesty's revenue, so less money available for the NHS.

So yes, even if it is not obvious, it affects him personally.

[shaina]

All change has ups and downs.

That makes sense buddy, i was just curious really that when your Currency/Pound did loose some value, did it change any costing living in the UK??

I do understand that policies/agendas in government parties, are going to make changes, but the question is how much is it really going to change??

That i guess is always the scary thing Gribley.....

Another question i like to ask you, do you use the local currency or the Euro ?? I would assume both are pretty much accepted no??

[Caballero]

UK is pound sterling only, no euros.

[shaina]

If he wanted to go to Spain for his winter vacation, chances are it affects him very much since the devaluation of the pound makes his trip more expensive. if he likes to stay in Yorkshire, maybe not so much. Unless there are a whole bunch of Americans who like to take advantage of their cheaper vacation options and cause the hotel rooms in Yorkshire to become more expensive (supply/demand you know), so then, yes, even then he'd be affected.
Those bananas he likes to eat for breakfast? Imported, which means more expensive. That replacement part for his BMW that he needs? Imported, so more expensive.

Those bankers who got laid off in the city? Drawing unemployment and not contributing to her majesty's revenue, so less money available for the NHS.

So yes, even if it is not obvious, it affects him personally.

Well inflation, cost of goods etc, thinking that every currency fluctuates, costs are going to change no matter what no Cabby??

What i would say is how drastic?? Again the UK separating is not going to make it Venezuela;), and again really not knowing and only using assumptions costs could go up or down on certain products or services....

And you assumptions can be applied to any import to any country, especially if it is not produced or made locally?? As i said many times you can go to Walmart and buy fruit and vegetables or you can go to a higher priced grocery store, again the fruit may come from the same place but there is different grade qualities right...
So saying that you base everything on assumptions of the EU being better, but until there is a split, there is no proof. Especially when you see different views and projections on both sides..

Right now are you getting any or using any international petroleum/gas/oil/natural gas products in the US?? Has the price gone down?? or are you seeing any benefits from that?? Really what fruit or vegetable can't be grown in the US somewhere?? Yet you still get imports right??

If a GM, Ford, Chrysler car/truck etc is built in the US do you save any money?? If i go to a dealership for Toyota or Lexus here is it different from going to one in the US (except dollar evaluation)...

Again costs can and will change, positive and negative, but i don't think to a degree that makes the separation/Brexit the biggest issue. Getting rid of EU control and controlling borders is more the issue..

But hey what do i know right:)

[shaina]

UK is pound sterling only, no euros.

Really i didn't know that, that is interesting, what other countries don't accept the Euro and is part of the Eu??

I always thought that any country that is part of the EU the euro is accepted?? Does the Euro influenced by the countries that are part of the EU??

Edit: Cabby can you answer this buddy, the way you comment you make it seem that the EU gets no benefits from UK being a member??

Is that true?? So will that not affect everyone that is part of the EU in a positive or negative way??

[Caballero]

I have never said that the EU is not getting any benefits from UK membership, quite the contrary. Germany, for example, being a net exporter of goods benefits from a larger internal market for its products. Free flow of goods, people and capital benefits everyone. Standardization of technical specifications, wider application of laws and all that jazz do not impede trade; more trade generally means growing economies, a greater tax base and hence more services for the population. So yes, the UK leaving would affect the EU in a negative way.

As for the Euro countries, look here: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/euro/which-countries-use-euro_en

[Caballero]

Well inflation, cost of goods etc, thinking that every currency fluctuates, costs are going to change no matter what no Cabby??

That's a stupid argument; just because things get more expensive due to inflation does not mean that you should disregard cost increases due to other reasons, like currency devaluation.

If your currency is worth 10% less then that means that your imports are 10% more expensive. As a consumer you might only see a 5% increase in what you pay, but that just means that the importer is eating the other 5%. That extra cost means higher operating expenses/lower margins, hence lower profits, lower tax payments (or at some point the company goes bust and lays off all its employees, with all the associated costs for society). Etc.

[shaina]

Now all of that makes some sense, but a self sustained country is always better, but we both know that is impossible ;)

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

Again my opinion be it right or wrong, and what ever happens happens....

Thanks for the link as well Cabby, Interesting, Italy, Germany, France are on the Euro list, so they don't use local currency?? Just curious even know it is not a standard in other EU countries, say i cross the border to Buffalo, they will accept Canadian currency (with an exchange rate of course), again we know it is for the usual reasons to get cross border shopping right and vise versa for Americans coming to Canada. I would think it is pretty much known who is part of the EU, and the concept of open border travelling across all, they would accept the euro even if they had there own currency, especially in a tourist perspective..

[shaina]

That's a stupid argument; just because things get more expensive due to inflation does not mean that you should disregard cost increases due to other reasons, like currency devaluation.

If your currency is worth 10% less then that means that your imports are 10% more expensive. As a consumer you might only see a 5% increase in what you pay, but that just means that the importer is eating the other 5%. That extra cost means higher operating expenses/lower margins, hence lower profits, lower tax payments (or at some point the company goes bust and lays off all its employees, with all the associated costs for society). Etc.

Again your point of increase and eating cost, from my experience or knowledge, unless it is drastic, most of the time in costing anything that is imported there is a built in leeway, because of currency exchanges.. Most of the time you see large increases on things because of availability, and or seasonal items...
And think if it is a perishable items, for sure that is built into the costing....

But it goes to saying is Brexit going to turn the UK into a third world country?? I don't think so, and is it going to bankrupt the EU?? I don't think so. And really the question Cabby, is at least half or more of the Country citizens want to separate from the EU. So saying that you are going to please everyone no matter if they stay or go seems to be irreverent really..

Again i doubt it is going to change your life or mine, really this is just conversation and opinions, and trying to get some facts of the good and bad for a country right:)...

Again i will ask you, your gas you put in your car now is not from outside the US i assume now right, are you seeing any savings from that?? Why isn't there??
Our raw gas actually comes from Canada as well, but it is refined in the US so when it comes back we get fucked!!!!. But what i don't understand and maybe you do, is why prices are still influenced from the Middle East ?? Do you have an answer for that?? I sure don't...

[Caballero]

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

[shaina]

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

To be honest that is a loaded and stupid question, because if you were me or like most consumers today, they look online and elsewhere for the lowest price and most stores will price match... But to go further, even by your logic there is only a price that can be considered the least and it is up to the manufacturer or retailer if they do accept your offer no matter if yo buy 1 or a 1000...



And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

So now lets go back to your answer to one of my questions, the EU needs the UK just as much or more right, why?? Maybe because they do have to buy products or give jobs opportunity to outside UK citizens no??

You are looking one sided and not the other in my opinion, yes the UK will need imports and other countries will want the UK products that exports do you not see my point here yet??


And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

Well i see this different for reasons of reliability, and have the option of negotiating for imports with strength on negotiations not weakness. The UK leaving will not be because of weakness or this whole Brexit thing would be mute...

You getting mad on not looking at both sides of any debate is amusing. I don't disagree that there will be some obstacles, but it is workable with opening new trade deals as well..

Now take this scenario.. If a company buys 10 Jaguar Cars or buys a 1000 how much are they saving?? Plus now they have to pay for the Jaguar Cars and sell them....

Now how does business work really today in retail or internet sales.... The manufacturer projects sales and makes products, and it can be anything, that doesn't mean that a retailer purchases everything at once, you do understand that right?? So now the retailer has a winner and they draw from the manufacturer, and they may pay more in the beginning, and at the end of the year if they hit certain projections they get discounts, you do understand that right??

I mention grades of produce , now add meat products or wheat's and grains or anything, again if i country gives an order or projections of sales, then the farmers etc go by projections, what is the difference on negotiating with a Country or the EU?? If the UK has something that is in demand in all the EU countries what they won't buy it anymore??

I don't get your logic Cabby or your concept of negotiations?? The EU has more countries they deal with, are you telling me they have better negotiating power than the US?? China?? There is only so low you can go on anything if you buy 10 or you buy 1000000000.... And if you don't need those large amounts what is the difference?? It looks like a lot of savings because you are buying bigger volume, but if you can't sell, what is it good for?? If you buy 10 planes and not 100 how much are you saving??

If you use a place like Costco or the Internet really today, what margins do you think they make on a product retail?? and do you not think they have the best negotiators for purchasing on the planet??

Your view is one sided that the UK is not need for export purposes, and if they leave no one dictates who they sell or what they sell??
Canada purchases products from all over the world, what they don't negotiate??, Do you think the EU makes better deals than Canada on imports?? The EU has a much bigger population no?? Bigger than the US?? I wish we had someone like Trump that is stirring the pot and negotiating better deals for the People in Canada....
Don't make the EU to be the be all end all Cabby, the UK is very capable of surviving and thrive without the EU. And if they are smart like Trump, they won't let anyone fuck with them;)

Again really going back I don't think there is a fear of that as much as the fear of having closed borders on the Labour Party and there voters.....
The rest is really all crap!!!
But we will see soon how the citizens of the UK feel when they vote......The truth you may be right, really who knows:idunno:

Our last election in Canada Cabby, the early poles/projections were way the fuck off!!! The same in 2016 in the US right.....

183701

[shaina]

Are you out there!!! Calling J2K4:gunsmilie

[Caballero]

OK, you go to your local electronics store, and let's say they are actually willing to negotiate on what they charge you for their products.

Scenario #1: "Hi, I am Shaina, I am a buyer for XYZ company, and we need 3,000 widgets."

Scenario #2: "Hi, I am Shaina, I need 2 widgets, please."

Which scenario do you think will yield the better price for you?

To be honest that is a loaded and stupid question, because if you were me or like most consumers today, they look online and elsewhere for the lowest price and most stores will price match... But to go further, even by your logic there is only a price that can be considered the least and it is up to the manufacturer or retailer if they do accept your offer no matter if yo buy 1 or a 1000...

That is absolutely not a loaded/stupid question, because you are missing the point. Regardless of whether you find the cheapest seller online or in your neighborhood, that person's price to you will be influenced by your purchasing power. The more money you have to spend and the more items you are going to purchase, the more likely that person is to give you the rock-bottom price. So your on-line seller may be the cheapest, but if you buy a thousand widgets your price is probably still going to be 10 cents cheaper per widget than if you bought only one. And since companies' cost structures are different from each other, the ability to price match at some point is limited, unless you like selling at a loss. But then, why would you do it? Maybe because you plan on using that widget as a loss leader and hope to make it up on a different item/sale? In that case we are back at the principle of purchasing power.




And after you answer that, tell me why any country would give the UK as a single entity more favorable trade terms than the EU that as a block can offer a vastly greater market? We've had this discussion for I don't know how long; It's really not that difficult to understand... Sheesh.

So now lets go back to your answer to one of my questions, the EU needs the UK just as much or more right, why?? Maybe because they do have to buy products or give jobs opportunity to outside UK citizens no??

You are looking one sided and not the other in my opinion, yes the UK will need imports and other countries will want the UK products that exports do you not see my point here yet??

Does Europe need the UK as much as the other way round? Unpopular answer, but no. Does having the UK as part of the EU provide a benefit to the EU? Yes. But quite frankly, from a trade perspective and all the other good stuff I mentioned, EU membership has more value to the UK than the other way round. It's not a binary choice, really -- "not as much" does not equal "none".

Let's look at it in a different way. Let's say there is a market in Japan for 100 widgets, and both the EU and the UK post-Brexit are competing for access to that market. Japan wants to sell gadgets. The EU comes and says, "Hey, our market for gadgets is worth 1,000 pieces. We will reduce tariffs and duties and let you export 750 gadgets into the EU, but only if you buy 100 widgets from us and/or reduce your tariffs on EU widgets to that they are the cheapest in your country versus other imports." Now the UK comes and says, "Hey, we'd like to ship 100 widgets to you, and in return you can supply our entire gadget market, which is 150 units."

I can confidently predict which trade deal will be signed in that scenario.




And no, a self-sustained country is not always better if that means that your necessities that you produce at home are so resource-intensive that you cannot provide any nice-to-haves for the population. Trade allows for efficiencies and lifts the overall living standard. That's basic macro-economics.

Well i see this different for reasons of reliability, and have the option of negotiating for imports with strength on negotiations not weakness. The UK leaving will not be because of weakness or this whole Brexit thing would be mute...

You getting mad on not looking at both sides of any debate is amusing. I don't disagree that there will be some obstacles, but it is workable with opening new trade deals as well..

I'm not mad. I'm just frustrated that I am apparently such a crappy teacher that I cannot convey simple economics to you. Clearly my career as a university prof would be untenured nd short-lived...

The UK leaving would not be because of weakness, agreed. It's because of politicians' and lobbyists hidden agendas and their lying to the uninformed population. Coming back to that GBP 350 million every month that the Tories were going to spend on the NSH instead of allegedly sending the money to Brussels...



Now take this scenario.. If a company buys 10 Jaguar Cars or buys a 1000 how much are they saving?? Plus now they have to pay for the Jaguar Cars and sell them....

If a Jaguar costs $100,000 and you are able to negotiate a 5% discount because you are buying a thousand, then you just saved $5 million on your total purchase.



Now how does business work really today in retail or internet sales.... The manufacturer projects sales and makes products, and it can be anything, that doesn't mean that a retailer purchases everything at once, you do understand that right?? So now the retailer has a winner and they draw from the manufacturer, and they may pay more in the beginning, and at the end of the year if they hit certain projections they get discounts, you do understand that right??

You do understand that even in retail large sellers enter into annual or multi-year contracts with large manufacturers that are a commitment even if they don't take everything at once, right? And that the discounts they give/receive at the end of the year are based on volumes ordered/sold? But wait, that would mean that we are talking about market size and purchasing power! Fancy that...



I mention grades of produce , now add meat products or wheat's and grains or anything, again if i country gives an order or projections of sales, then the farmers etc go by projections, what is the difference on negotiating with a Country or the EU?? If the UK has something that is in demand in all the EU countries what they won't buy it anymore??

Not in the same quantities. At some (price) point a substitution effect kicks in. Again, basic economics.



I don't get your logic Cabby or your concept of negotiations?? The EU has more countries they deal with, are you telling me they have better negotiating power than the US?? China?? There is only so low you can go on anything if you buy 10 or you buy 1000000000.... And if you don't need those large amounts what is the difference?? It looks like a lot of savings because you are buying bigger volume, but if you can't sell, what is it good for?? If you buy 10 planes and not 100 how much are you saving??

Your problem is that you have a misconception about what countries negotiate with each other. The EU and the US and Japan and China are not negotiating prices for specific products, that is ultimately up to the market (maybe not so much in China's case). They are negotiating frameworks for the trade between their countries that will ultimately affect the price that the individual companies in the market will agree on. If Canada can make an item 5% cheaper than the US, but will have to pay an import tariff of 10% that the US does not have to pay, who do you think is able to offer a cheaper price? Go back and read my Japanese gadget/widget example again.

[shaina]

I knew this conversations would go back and forth, with no result :)

All my point is, you think that the EU has some sort of advantage, but you just don't realize that people do talk and know what others are paying, so if the EU is getting some sort of discount, everyone will negotiate for that price, and i do hope you realize that there is only so low anyone can go, meaning that no one sells at a loss unless they want to get rid of something. That makes sense right;).. So when it comes to purchases of 10,000 or 30,000 there is no real discount difference.. Because if you think this way, if the UK is the bigger consumer of certain products/produce, the deal will stay, if not, it will be negotiated, or they can go direct and hope for the best. Your logic makes sense for a small population, but the UK is not a small population, i hope you agree with that....

Your car concept.... Think of this, if you know a dealership is selling cars 5% cheaper than any other one, what happens to the 100's of the rest?? Think of the Price matching method, and also realize who actually eats that differential today...
If you know that the US is buying cars 5% cheaper, than the EU , what would the EU do?? You make it sound like people don't talk, but i will say it again there is a bottom line to everyone, and the manufacturers are not in business to lose money buddy so your teaching of economics are not valid....

I know not only owning my own retail stores and buying direct from manufactures and working for people as well, you can sell anything you want for any price you want Cabby, but if you want to be in business the next year, you have to make profit or make a living , or what is the sense right;)

Getting into Tariffs, is a whole bag of worms, and they are effective to help any local Manufacturing, but it could affect the pocket books of the countries consumers. Really what Trump is doing is brilliant, as long as he keeps things close and costs of locally manufactured products don't go crazy in price.. Am i missing something there in lament terms Cabby??

Your concept makes sense if there is a large volume difference in purchasing, but it would have to be such a significant difference. The EU is going to lose the use of products that the UK did consume if they split, if the UK decides to negotiate direct, and as a Manufacturer, what do you think they are going to do?? Charge more?? Come on Cabby does that really make sense buddy:). And Tariffs and Duties work both ways and can be negotiated, you understand the concept of the USMCA right;)


Again all the answers are going to come soon enough how the UK feels, and then we can actually discuss why either way what happened:D

[j2k4]

I'm gonna take the easy way out, here.

We need to have two Brits argue opposite ends of the Brexit yes/no issue.

As an anti-globalist, I fall in the pro camp by default: I think it smacks of the collectivism that - as history has taught us - sucks cawk.

It's just that simple.

[shaina]

I'm gonna take the easy way out, here.

We need to have two Brits argue opposite ends of the Brexit yes/no issue.

As an anti-globalist, I fall in the pro camp by default: I think it smacks of the collectivism that - as history has taught us - sucks cawk.

It's just that simple.

To me that sounds like a chicken shit cop out :)

Here we may need a Scottish and Brit if you are watching any of the election, and it will be interesting how this reflects how people think in the US about radical Democrat policies/agendas??

And i am waiting for the Labour party to say the Russians interfered with there elections and Boris should be hung for treason LOL!!!! Oh and don't forget Gerrymandering LOL!!!. Not realizing that even if you take Brexit out of the picture the Labour party ideas and agenda was retarded let alone turned the party into the biggest Antisemitic one as well. Kind of like what is happening in the Democratic party in the US;)..

Again it is confusing to listen too and watch the UK election, the people are speaking, and will be interesting to see what happens in the end:idunno:...

And i guess you can say goodbye to the piece of shit anti semitic garbage Corbyn, and his people, and hopefully get the party back to what it used to be. Sounds familiar in the US and Canada as well;)

[j2k4]

Cop out...yes, sure.

We may be witnessing the death throes of the Left, here and there - hope springs eternal, but then so does Socialism/Collectivism/Globalism.

[shaina]

Cop out...yes, sure.

We may be witnessing the death throes of the Left, here and there - hope springs eternal, but then so does Socialism/Collectivism/Globalism.

Good early morning my friend, what gets you up so early?? Did you shit the bed:lol:

I just think seeing that election in the UK shows that socialism is not there cup of tea:D. And if you throw in Antisemitism you really get blown out of the water.....

The Labour Party has got to look and reflect what gave them dominance all the years, and really you can have some far out policies, but you do have to throw in a few for moderate ones as well;). I really do think that this will mirror the 2020 election in the US as well. If they get some nutbag Democratic nominee.

I agree with you buddy , But heck what do i know......

[Something Else]

What is the UK going to lose if they leave?? Going back and forth, they still will deal with the EU, but just have borders and control who comes into there Country??


We already have borders and control on who comes into our country, because we used our veto and opted out of the Schengen area. You CANNOT get into the UK without a passport, even from continental Europe.

It's a complete myth we don't have border controls, hence the reason people have to resort to trying to sneak in via lorries and dinghies.

The trouble is, people cannot seem to distinguish in their minds between illegal immigrants and the legal immigration that is required to plug skills shortages, e.g. doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, etc. (Yes, it seems UK-born people are incapable of picking fruit, hence why millions of apples have rotted away on trees this year, because of a shortage of EU migrant workers!)

I think it's a language thing. Incomers to this country are always referred to as "migrants", however isn't it strange how people from this country who go and retire in Spain for example are referred to as "ex-pats"...

This whole "uncontrolled immigration" trope is a complete lie. The strain on public services is not caused by immigration, it's caused by the aging native population not dying off.

The "Boomers" clinging on to life after they've ruined the world for the rest of us... nice one. *slow hand-clap*

But people are so thick they believe anything the right-wing press spoon-feeds them.

Barbs summed it up quite perfectly. From a Londoner's point of view.

I had an idea. London stay in the EU and the rest of England leave. Ewe nose it makes scents.

[Something Else]

Also, most of the Americans posting in the thread seem to be vastly misinformed.

[Something Else]

You can't enter or exit the country legally without a valid passport and in some cases a visa. Fact.

[Caballero]

Also, most of the Americans posting in the thread seem to be vastly misinformed.

Don't forget the Canadians. Or at least one in particular. :)

[j2k4]

Also, most of the Americans posting in the thread seem to be vastly misinformed.

Feel free to un-misinform us, please - and be comprehensive, anent "vastly".


You can't enter or exit the country legally without a valid passport and in some cases a visa. Fact.

Never thought to comment on that.

So what?



Also, most of the Americans posting in the thread seem to be vastly misinformed.

Don't forget the Canadians. Or at least one in particular. :)

How many Canadians are we afflicted with?

[IdolEyes787]

I am blissfully ignorant.

If the World ends, the best thing you can hope for at that point is being the last one to know.

[shaina]

I am blissfully ignorant.

If the World ends, the best thing you can hope for at that point is being the last one to know.

You know there is a difference of ignorance to not being interested. You can always say that even being a minority, your importance doesn't always reflect the majority of the population or the complete demographics of a country....

As your negative morbid assumption comment:), saying you are ignorant, you will never know either way buddy......

[shaina]

Feel free to un-misinform us, please - and be comprehensive, anent "vastly".

You can't enter or exit the country legally without a valid passport and in some cases a visa. Fact.
Never thought to comment on that.
So what?

Comments like that JK24 not only shows who they voted for, it also shows the ignorance of really not knowing how the majority or the rest of there own country feels;)

It is like telling someone something 100 times and it is going to change to there way, like i have said myself, i have traveled across the US and been to other countries, but in all my life on this planet i have never traveled across my own country Canada, so saying i really know how they feel would just be a lie. Again the only way to tell how anyone feels is when you see how they vote, and really look at the map of your country, and look at the colors and how people really migrate to areas, then you have to look how close the race was in that state, that tells a lot....

[shaina]

Don't forget the Canadians. Or at least one in particular. :)

What does this comment mean?? For someone that thinks he knows, really doesn't understand the rest of his Country does he;)

Look at the recent impeachment vote, that should tell you everything Cabby;), now you wait for the 2020 election, and let me tell you straight out, even if you had the illusion that Trump would be thrown out, and that is a real laugh!!, Pence will win in a landslide, and really the thumping would look worse for even a moderate Democrat nominee :) And Pence in my opinion is even more dangerous being way more far Right. The majority of Americans are not interested in Left Wing Socialists crap, Why the fuck would anyone want to have the Government control anything, especially if they don't have too. Wouldn't you yourself want to have more control??

Time will go fast and we will see then right....

As one Supreme Court Justice Judge said the other day "Merry Christmas" buddy to you and your family;)

[Gribley]

Why does this sound like China all of sudden :S And now I`ll be hacked by hundreds of drones to take me out having said anything negative. UK bailing out of EU is a bummer for travel granted but trade yet to be seen (N. IRL a matter apart, no idea why we needed to hold onto that we have a rock in Gibraltar with some monkeys and Penguins in the Falklands - who needs more)

[shaina]

Why does this sound like China all of sudden :S And now I`ll be hacked by hundreds of drones to take me out having said anything negative. UK bailing out of EU is a bummer for travel granted but trade yet to be seen (N. IRL a matter apart, no idea why we needed to hold onto that we have a rock in Gibraltar with some monkeys and Penguins in the Falklands - who needs more)

Wait a minute Gribley, forget trade as you said, know one knows yet how that will turn out, better or worse??

But seeing a comment from one of your fellow persons that i think lives in the UK says that you need to show passports or some sort of ID to travel in and out of the UK, meaning you do already have borders?? And i mean Car travel not fucking Air Travel , i mean that is common sense that you have to show a Passport or ID (EU or whatever i have no idea )..

If you travel by car , van , bus, do you have a physical border that you go through, and you show ID?? And i am talking about your next door neighbor Country??


I thought my comment Gribley was interesting, and do you actually see/look how the rest of your Country votes?? I mean on the map they show you after the elections....

Here is and may be a stupid Question, I really don't know?? Does everyone that travels in and out of Scotland, do they have to enter the rest of the UK?? If you know that i mean??

Like if they did want to separate, how would the entrance to there country really work??

[Gribley]

The whole ID thing yes, we do require to travel.... even to S.Ireland not sure about N.Ireland. Your comments about Scots will piss off the Welsh as they too have no borders but you left `em out ;)

Prob with NI is that anyone from the EU can travel to southern Ireland (nice place, really good people - really shit road system) and can then pop over to the North and jump on a ferry to the mainland I think..... I`ve not tried it as I was hatched here.

[shaina]

The whole ID thing yes, we do require to travel.... even to S.Ireland not sure about N.Ireland. Your comments about Scots will piss off the Welsh as they too have no borders but you left `em out ;)
Prob with NI is that anyone from the EU can travel to southern Ireland (nice place, really good people - really shit road system) and can then pop over to the North and jump on a ferry to the mainland I think..... I`ve not tried it as I was hatched here.

My apologies to Welsh Gribley:fear:

Interesting.

I assumed you voted, did you look at the map in perspective of how people do vote for certain parties, and do you notice a different type of culture/people vs other areas when you go from the north to the south etc....

[shaina]

The whole ID thing yes, we do require to travel.... even to S.Ireland not sure about N.Ireland. Your comments about Scots will piss off the Welsh as they too have no borders but you left `em out ;)
Prob with NI is that anyone from the EU can travel to southern Ireland (nice place, really good people - really shit road system) and can then pop over to the North and jump on a ferry to the mainland I think..... I`ve not tried it as I was hatched here.

My apologies to Welsh Gribley:fear:

Interesting.

I assumed you voted, did you look at the map in perspective of how people do vote for certain parties, and do you notice a different type of culture/people vs other areas when you go from the north to the south etc....

Even a bigger laugh that you hear nothing of the Russians interfering with your elections LOL!!, i think you guys should be very angry about that LOL!!!!

You guys have no significant value to the rest of the world, you might as well be Canadian :sadwalk:

[j2k4]

...UK bailing out of EU is a bummer for travel granted but trade yet to be seen...

The EU coincides with the Maastricht Treaty of...1993, I think.

How long should you have to wait for this "trade" you speak of?

[Gribley]

Since I don`t own a company hard to say. I expect my food bills to go up but longer term really hard to analyse.

For Shay, I wish I was Canadian. You have a pre-conception of being nice which I find strangely attractive.

I had 4 choices in my vote, (Green - libdem - labour - conservative) - I hated them all but had to go for one which was Labour

[shaina]

nFor Shay, I wish I was Canadian. You have a pre-conception of being nice which I find strangely attractive.

Thank you, but remember i don't do the gay thing :kiss:

How does that saying go, Talk is cheap, what you do to help man (I think the Democrats want to change that verse as well) kind will live forever:idunno:, Or do the opposite that Idol does.:P


I had 4 choices in my vote, (Green - libdem - labour - conservative) - I hated them all but had to go for one which was Labour

You may not want to post it in the open forum, but i be curious why you picked Labour over the others?? And did your vote count?? Did the Labour win in your area??

[Gribley]

I don`t swing the other way either but I like the fact it is no longer a major issue. My vote didn`t make a difference, I`m not sure I wanted it to (as they are all crap)

[shaina]

I don`t swing the other way either but I like the fact it is no longer a major issue. My vote didn`t make a difference, I`m not sure I wanted it to (as they are all crap)

I really can say it happens everywhere Gribley, i have tried to say that so many times to Idol, respecting his idea that there should be more honest politicians, the problem i also see about that is even if you think a politician is honest, yet the policies/agenda he got voted in to do is never implemented, then what??

I saw today that the vote is in and the UK separation will happen by the end of Jan 2020, the people have spoken that is what they want, but of course not all;)..

Again Gribley, as long as you and your family are healthy, and happy (you know what i mean;)), what else can you say..

[megabyteme]

I don`t swing the other way either but I like the fact it is no longer a major issue.

A man who likes to keep his options open :yup:

[Gribley]

Never from there. I can't see how that would pleasure. Male on Male in a relationship, get that no girl drama

[Something Else]

Feel free to un-misinform us, please - and be comprehensive, anent "vastly".


You can't enter or exit the country legally without a valid passport and in some cases a visa. Fact.

Done.

[j2k4]

You can't enter or exit the country legally without a valid passport and in some cases a visa. Fact.

Done.

So that constitutes the entirety of your concern with membership in the EU and is your sole issue with BREXIT?

[IdolEyes787]

I'd just like to point out that England is already separated from Europe.

Geez, does no one study geography anymore?

Also, brexit sounds like something I would apply to a rash. Couldn't your druids come up with something better than that?

[dion09529]

I'd just like to point out that England is already separated from Europe.

Geez, does no one study geography anymore?



As an investigator, scientist and geomorphologist, I am qualified to say that England and France are directly connected through a submarine tunnel. You can also cross the English Channel by swimming.

[IdolEyes787]

You can also cross the English Channel by swimming. Fake news as I'm reasonably sure I'd drown about 2 kilometers out.

[IdolEyes787]

Next thing you'll be telling me I can swim to Australia because there's water involved.

Jesus Krist, I need a car to get to the grocery store and it's only three blocks.

[shaina]

Fake news as I'm reasonably sure I'd drown about 2 kilometers out.

183771

[shaina]

Jesus Krist, I need a car to get to the grocery store and it's only three blocks.

And we know that is a big fat lie:)

183772

And if it is one of your lazy days...

183773183773

[j2k4]

Dog-sledders only have to talk a good game.

Or has Idol gone the four-legged route...

[shaina]

Dog-sledders only have to talk a good game.

Or has Idol gone the four-legged route...

Seeing he can be a Jackass occasionally, this might be up his alley...

183782

[IdolEyes787]

Mainly I powerlift nowadays but that's only because I hate my joints and ligaments.

[shaina]

Mainly I masturbate nowadays but that's only because I hate my joints and ligaments.

Fixed and sounds more realistic for you;)

[j2k4]

Mainly I powerlift nowadays but that's only because I hate my joints and ligaments.

I did that when I was younger, and for the same reasons.

I can vaguely remember masturbation. :huh:

[Something Else]

Done.

So that constitutes the entirety of your concern with membership in the EU and is your sole issue with BREXIT?

I already gave my opinion. This was in response to whether the borders were open or not.

[j2k4]

Well, then.

I'll have to read back, unless you'd be good enough to link me?


Hope your Christmas was to your liking, you and everyone else.

Should be a day when everything goes nicely for everyone, but.

[j2k4]

As re ideology, practice of any of them at the extremes results in excessive stooping to kiss ass and attendant medical difficulties and cost.

[Something Else]

Well, then.

I'll have to read back, unless you'd be good enough to link me?


Hope your Christmas was to your liking, you and everyone else.

Should be a day when everything goes nicely for everyone, but.


We already have borders and control on who comes into our country, because we used our veto and opted out of the Schengen area. You CANNOT get into the UK without a passport, even from continental Europe.

It's a complete myth we don't have border controls, hence the reason people have to resort to trying to sneak in via lorries and dinghies.

The trouble is, people cannot seem to distinguish in their minds between illegal immigrants and the legal immigration that is required to plug skills shortages, e.g. doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, etc. (Yes, it seems UK-born people are incapable of picking fruit, hence why millions of apples have rotted away on trees this year, because of a shortage of EU migrant workers!)

I think it's a language thing. Incomers to this country are always referred to as "migrants", however isn't it strange how people from this country who go and retire in Spain for example are referred to as "ex-pats"...

This whole "uncontrolled immigration" trope is a complete lie. The strain on public services is not caused by immigration, it's caused by the aging native population not dying off.

The "Boomers" clinging on to life after they've ruined the world for the rest of us... nice one. *slow hand-clap*

But people are so thick they believe anything the right-wing press spoon-feeds them.

Barbs summed it up quite perfectly. From a Londoner's point of view. I'm a Londoner.

Christmas, I didn't notice, apart from my local shop was closed when I needed it.

All the best to you and yours.

[j2k4]

We already have borders and control on who comes into our country, because we used our veto and opted out of the Schengen area. You CANNOT get into the UK without a passport, even from continental Europe.

It's a complete myth we don't have border controls, hence the reason people have to resort to trying to sneak in via lorries and dinghies.

The trouble is, people cannot seem to distinguish in their minds between illegal immigrants and the legal immigration that is required to plug skills shortages, e.g. doctors, nurses, fruit pickers, etc. (Yes, it seems UK-born people are incapable of picking fruit, hence why millions of apples have rotted away on trees this year, because of a shortage of EU migrant workers!)

I think it's a language thing. Incomers to this country are always referred to as "migrants", however isn't it strange how people from this country who go and retire in Spain for example are referred to as "ex-pats"...

This whole "uncontrolled immigration" trope is a complete lie. The strain on public services is not caused by immigration, it's caused by the aging native population not dying off.

The "Boomers" clinging on to life after they've ruined the world for the rest of us... nice one. *slow hand-clap*

But people are so thick they believe anything the right-wing press spoon-feeds them.

Barbs summed it up quite perfectly. From a Londoner's point of view. I'm a Londoner.

Christmas, I didn't notice, apart from my local shop was closed when I needed it.

All the best to you and yours.


Thanks - so I should have responded to Barbs; soooo out of practice.

So, Barbie...Modern Medicine - the kind that fosters aged-ness - is a pox on the affordability of the rest of an "entitled" society?

If that is so, the government (yours or​ mine) isn't helping.

[Something Else]

Are either of our governments ever helping. The Brits and the Yanks seem to share something. Arrogance.

The Brits prefer their own currency, drive on their side and expect other countries to speak their language.

Americans call their president 'Leader of the World' and their national sports champions 'World Champions'

Is this arrogance? Probably. I think ignorance is being too kind.

[megabyteme]

We're too good for arrogance. :snooty:

[j2k4]

Yes, that's what bothers people so much about us - as bad as we are, we're still more successfully functional in all the ways that count than any other countries on earth.

I've taken the liberty of including you, because of your King's English, mostly.

If you object, feel free to opt out.

[Something Else]

Yes, that's what bothers people so much about us - as bad as we are, we're still more successfully functional in all the ways that count than any other countries on earth.

I've taken the liberty of including you, because of your King's English, mostly.

If you object, feel free to opt out.

Which are the ways that count. In terms of successful functionality, like.

[IdolEyes787]

Yes, that's what bothers people so much about us - as bad as we are, we're still more successfully functional in all the ways that count than any other countries on earth.

I think it must have something to do with military spending because that's basically the only thing the US leads the World in anymore.

[j2k4]

Yes, that's what bothers people so much about us - as bad as we are, we're still more successfully functional in all the ways that count than any other countries on earth.

I've taken the liberty of including you, because of your King's English, mostly.

If you object, feel free to opt out.

Which are the ways that count. In terms of successful functionality, like.

See below, which, at a minimum, keeps a lid on things.

See also humanitarian aid and the lion's (or hog's, if you prefer) share of the cost of the most organized anti-U.S. contingent on
earth, the United Nations.

As an aside, are you guys tripping over yourselves to give immigrants driver's licenses and a vote in your affairs?




Yes, that's what bothers people so much about us - as bad as we are, we're still more successfully functional in all the ways that count than any other countries on earth.

I think it must have something to do with military spending because that's basically the only thing the US leads the World in anymore.

As I said above...

[shaina]

Word of the Day: Erstwhile

[Something Else]

Which are the ways that count. In terms of successful functionality, like.

See below, which, at a minimum, keeps a lid on things.

See also humanitarian aid and the lion's (or hog's, if you prefer) share of the cost of the most organized anti-U.S. contingent on
earth, the United Nations.

I would consider successfully functional to be based on how well your own country's (to name a few) welfare, healthcare, education, crime, laws and economy look.

How much one country spends on 'World Influence' is not what I would consider part of a successful function necessarily.

But I digress. To answer your other question, which was less aside and more front-side to the point we're discussing.


As an aside, are you guys tripping over yourselves to give immigrants driver's licenses and a vote in your affairs?

We are all immigrants and we are all natives. I think, as a race, the English are generally quite good at embracing other cultures and adapting our own. We're a multi-national, wide-ranging nation of many good and bad people from many places.

Whether they are an immigrant or not shouldn't be the point. This is capitalism. A competitive market. If a Latvian Cobbler is better at the job than our local one, give it to him. And we get better cobbles. :unsure: If a German chimney sweep is faster, give him the job and fire the current one.

In this competitive market, the ideals of our glorious capitalism demand an equal opportunity for everyone to compete. That's why we love it so. Blocking foreigners from competing is unsportsmanlike at best, and xenophobic at worst.

I am open to all borders being opened everywhere and all people free to settle where they are happiest, and to compete equally with those around them.

[Something Else]

Those that are afraid of immigrants stealing their jobs, are probably shite at their jobs.

[j2k4]

See below, which, at a minimum, keeps a lid on things.

See also humanitarian aid and the lion's (or hog's, if you prefer) share of the cost of the most organized anti-U.S. contingent on
earth, the United Nations.

I would consider successfully functional to be based on how well your own country's (to name a few) welfare, healthcare, education, crime, laws and economy look.

How much one country spends on 'World Influence' is not what I would consider part of a successful function necessarily.

But I digress. To answer your other question, which was less aside and more front-side to the point we're discussing.


As an aside, are you guys tripping over yourselves to give immigrants driver's licenses and a vote in your affairs?

We are all immigrants and we are all natives. I think, as a race, the English are generally quite good at embracing other cultures and adapting our own. We're a multi-national, wide-ranging nation of many good and bad people from many places.

Whether they are an immigrant or not shouldn't be the point. This is capitalism. A competitive market. If a Latvian Cobbler is better at the job than our local one, give it to him. And we get better cobbles. :unsure: If a German chimney sweep is faster, give him the job and fire the current one.

In this competitive market, the ideals of our glorious capitalism demand an equal opportunity for everyone to compete. That's why we love it so. Blocking foreigners from competing is unsportsmanlike at best, and xenophobic at worst.

I am open to all borders being opened everywhere and all people free to settle where they are happiest, and to compete equally with those around them.

Define open borders, then tell me why we bother to have individual countries - is it strictly because of open-market capitalism?



Those that are afraid of immigrants stealing their jobs, are probably shite at their jobs.

By and large, we're talking legal vs illegal immigrants...but under this "open borders" scenario, there would be no more illegals, and, by the way, no way to tax wages to fund your precious governments.

[Barbarossa]

Don't mind me, I'm angry at everyone and everything.

[Barbarossa]

Barbs summed it up quite perfectly. From a Londoner's point of view. I'm a Londoner.

Christmas, I didn't notice, apart from my local shop was closed when I needed it.

All the best to you and yours.


Thanks - so I should have responded to Barbs; soooo out of practice.

So, Barbie...Modern Medicine - the kind that fosters aged-ness - is a pox on the affordability of the rest of an "entitled" society?

If that is so, the government (yours or​ mine) isn't helping.

That's an excellent title for an essay question, I'm sure Shaina will be along soon enough to oblige... :dry:

My humanity says that of course modern medicine and the reduction in infant mortality is a blessing and not a curse, however by using it to prolong life it has caused a great inbalance in our society. There are too many old people, taking up too many resources.

I'm 47 now, I'll probably feel differently in 20 years. Not that there will be much left in 20 years.

[j2k4]

To this point in history, man's brilliance and American Capitalism have made pie-in-the-sky regularly.

It's apparent we need to stop socialism dead and allow Capitalism to slip the reins.


Discuss.

[IdolEyes787]

You mean the dreaded socialism of the army, the police, the fire department, public schools, public works, programs caring for the less fortunate and evil stuff like that?

I dunno, I'll have to check and see if I have a brown shirt first.

[Caballero]

I am always laughing when I hear something along the lines of "We need to stop socialism."

Any tax system is by definition a redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have-nots. We're already living the socialist dream.

Of course you could just get rid of taxes. The great state of Kansas should be able to provide a glimpse of what that would mean in the long-run.

[j2k4]

We in America are overtaxed to begin with - the more urban the area the worse it is.

You seem to think there is not the least difference between 'some' taxes and confiscatory taxes.

How much tax do you pay?

How much more would you like to pay?

[Caballero]

I'm not paying enough. And in return I am getting shitty service from my government that worth even less.

24 cents/gallon federal fuel tax that has not been adjusted since the 70s? That's a joke. Double it and build some decent roads.

Jack my taxes up 5% and give me universal healthcare and free college education at state schools; the money I don't have to spend on private insurance and tuition makes more than up for it.

Start a .5% city tax and hire a few more police and firemen.

Etc.

You don't get shit for free. And if society overall does well, usually each individual will do better, too. It's certainly more likely than the other way around.

Oh, and please don't confuse nominal and effective tax rates. With all the deductions, exemptions and loopholes out there our effective tax rates are a joke.

[IdolEyes787]

You could start here.

https://www.businessinsider.com/american-billionaires-paid-less-taxes-than-working-class-wealth-gap-2019-10

Also it's been said that not giving so much to the military could solve a lot of your more idiotic problems though sadly not the orange one.

[IdolEyes787]

If none of that works then maybe try sacrificing Barr to Mammon.

[j2k4]

I'm not paying enough. And in return I am getting shitty service from my government that worth even less.

24 cents/gallon federal fuel tax that has not been adjusted since the 70s? That's a joke. Double it and build some decent roads.

Jack my taxes up 5% and give me universal healthcare and free college education at state schools; the money I don't have to spend on private insurance and tuition makes more than up for it.

Start a .5% city tax and hire a few more police and firemen.

Etc.

You don't get shit for free. And if society overall does well, usually each individual will do better, too. It's certainly more likely than the other way around.

Oh, and please don't confuse nominal and effective tax rates. With all the deductions, exemptions and loopholes out there our effective tax rates are a joke.

Not paying enough?

Pay more, then - surely there are provisions.

Fed fuel tax?

Get off the back of commerce, I say.

City tax?

Fine with me - I don't live in the fucking city, and I'm not gonna pay their fucking taxes.

"You don't get shit for free"?

Two answers to that:

1: What you get, AND pay for, IS shit - let a little marketing in to fix that.

2: Any politician, Left OR Right, will tell you that you're plain flat wrong, relative to the rancid bacon they offer.

Nominal vs effective?

I will agree the tax system needs drastic simplification, which is a large part of the capitalist solution.


You could start here.

https://www.businessinsider.com/american-billionaires-paid-less-taxes-than-working-class-wealth-gap-2019-10

Also it's been said that not giving so much to the military could solve a lot of your more idiotic problems though sadly not the orange one.

Unless you've failed to notice - don't know how that could happen, given the amount of time he gives the subject - the "orange one" is after other nations to carry their portion of the military costs...rather than fund all manner of (see above) that make of their populations naught but fat, sloppy victims willing to vote Lefty.

He will, in turn, lessen military portioning to ease the burden elsewhere.

That's the intent, at any rate, pending the current Democrat stupidity.

[j2k4]

If none of that works then maybe try sacrificing Barr to Mammon.

Barr is Trump with discretion and a drive to see the heretofore unacknowledged corruption unclothed.

[IdolEyes787]

Barr is Trump with discretion and a drive to see the heretofore unacknowledged corruption unclothed.

So he's going to confess then.

[IdolEyes787]

Someone please tell the US that it's still against the Geneva Convention to target civilians.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-security/trump-vows-to-hit-52-iranian-targets-if-iran-retaliates-after-drone-strike-idUSKBN1Z4003


But then again so is torture and places like Gitmo so I guess that ship's already sailed.

[IdolEyes787]

Personally I think draft dodging should forever exclude anyone from being in charge of the military but that's just me and my unreasonable prejudice against cowards.

[j2k4]

Personally I think draft dodging should forever exclude anyone from being in charge of the military but that's just me and my unreasonable prejudice against cowards.

Remember:

You're a political animal once you decide to be one.

Go back to Clinton, see how long he/she/they practiced the political hygiene that got him/her/them elected.

You have to grant him what you've granted them...

[IdolEyes787]

You're a political animal once you decide to be one.

Go back to Clinton, see how long he/she/they practiced the political hygiene that got him/her/them elected.

You have to grant him what you've granted them...

True my spirit animal is a weasel.

Also I'm the last person to defend Clinton or Obama for that matter. That doesn't change my opinion of anyone least of all Pompeo who is if not pure evil then at least highly distilled.

[j2k4]

...least of all Pompeo who is if not pure evil then at least highly distilled.

Explain, please.

[megabyteme]

...least of all Pompeo who is if not pure evil then at least highly distilled.

Explain, please.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKGbguoildA

[j2k4]

Ah...I see.

[Equalwings]

I had noticed that hardly any news from the UK mentions Brexit any more. Is this deliberate? Has the sky fallen yet?

[Barbarossa]

I had noticed that hardly any news from the UK mentions Brexit any more. Is this deliberate? Has the sky fallen yet?

Well we're in the transition period. So things are pretty much the same until the end of the year. Come back in December.

[Gribley]

As well we all got bored of the subject. Politics are so blah....

[Something Else]

If it's not helping them get more popular, they won't mention it. Our politics is like a high school prom queen competition. :dabs:

[civildrone]

Nothing will really change for the UK. Europe is in need of tourism and money influx

[Caballero]

So saying that, the UK or Germany or any country leaving the EU still boggles my mind why you cant make free trade or negotiate trade deals with or without the EU, again border and immigration i see as the biggest issues/changes. But if the UK can make other deals in trade to benefit themselves or who they choose to deal with will not make the UK worse off...

If only somebody could have foreseen that this was going to happen...


In the latest sign that the “swashbuckling” drive to sign deals with countries around the world is proving less than straightforward, the UK could lose favourable access to Japanese markets it enjoyed as part of EU membership if no agreement is signed.

UK negotiators also face the prospect of being bounced into a deal on unfavourable terms, as countries like Japan seek to use the reopening of talks to gain further concessions against the UK.

---> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-japan-uk-trade-deal-boris-johnson-eu-transition-market-access-a9580731.html