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ultimatejester
11-29-2003, 02:19 AM
LOS ANGELES, Nov. 25 Los Angeles officials have asked that manufacturers, suppliers and contractors stop using the terms "master" and "slave" on computer equipment, saying such terms are unacceptable and offensive.


Full Story (http://www.msnbc.com/news/998130.asp?0dm=C16MT&cp1=1)

Mr. Blunt
11-29-2003, 02:55 AM
Oh my god.


:lol: :lol:

Rat Faced
11-29-2003, 03:04 AM
PC gone mad...

:blink:

hobbes
11-29-2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@29 November 2003 - 04:04
PC gone mad...

:blink:
Personal computer politcal correctness gone mad! Should this be PC^2, p2c2 or PCP correctness?

I find Motherboard offensive, should be Personboard.

MagicNakor
11-29-2003, 03:42 AM
They wouldn't have this problem if they named their computers.

:ninja:

j2k4
11-29-2003, 04:22 AM
Ah, yes-

Say what you will about engineers (and I do), but they are not generally "slaves" to inaccurate nomenclature or terminology.

The powers that be should insist that the complaining parties secrete their objections inside their gaping anal cavities. ;)

clocker
11-29-2003, 04:38 AM
I am amazed that a civil servant has managed to retain a level of sensitivity sufficient to even recognize the potential inflamatory nature of the labeling.

Most government employees, in the words of Holden Caulfield, are about as "sensitive as a toilet seat".
How did the complaintant manage to remain this virginal?

I'm guessing that this whole thing started over a joint at lunchtime and has bloomed far beyond the expectations of the originators...

j2k4
11-29-2003, 04:48 AM
:lol:

Just so-

The Genesis of a fresh batch of idiocy.

I'll watch with great interest. ;)

hobbes
11-29-2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by j2k4@29 November 2003 - 05:48
:lol:

Just so-

The Genesis of a fresh batch of idiocy.

I'll watch with great interest. ;)
If you tire of this subject, you can join me enjoying my favorite pastime:
http://turfgrass.cas.psu.edu/education/turgeon/Lessons/03/kb.gif

Grow grass, grow

j2k4
11-29-2003, 05:59 AM
Ah-

The sweet smell of freshly painted bluegrass! :rolleyes:

ZaZu
11-29-2003, 11:12 AM
Whats next ,should we stop refering to the orentation of a plug or socket as male or female <_<

SniperInTheShadows
11-29-2003, 11:40 AM
Political correctness first, PC correctness second, how much lamer can it get? lol

I find it very difficult to understand how something like this could even reach official&#39;s, yet alone for manufacturers etc to be asked to do such a thing.

Are we going to have to stop calling processor&#39;s &#39;CPU&#39;s because of how they sound like someone&#39;s saying "See pee you"?

This world need&#39;s to learn the meaning of the word &#39;acceptance&#39; and how to deal with other peep&#39;s way&#39;s and believes, not go around trying to change what everyone else is allowed to think, say or believe :(

Sniper.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 12:02 PM
I think it is a fair point. There are obvious connotations, which to some may be offensive.

Just because some thing, or some tradition, or some terminology has been used for a long time does not make it right.

There is a rather old tradition in this country, possibly elsewhere, of the "Black and White Minstrels". Where white men put on black make-up, with white lips and eyes and performed shows. It was frankly distasteful and is fortunately now very rare. It is rare because people started to think, wait a minute this is wrong. It&#39;s been about for a long time, but it is still wrong.

Think about what the words master and slave are commonly taken to mean. Put an honest mental picture in your head. Then ask yourself, could this offend someone. Not a simple annoyance, but a genuine hurt and offence.

Like I said, I think it is a fair point.

Cheese
11-29-2003, 12:22 PM
I can&#39;t make my mind up on this one. On one hand I think it&#39;s a good idea to change these names if it really does offend people on the other hand political correctness gets right up my nose...

And what exactly are they going to change the names to?

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 12:26 PM
We use mother and daughter for boards, why not father and son for drives.

There are many non-offensive alternatives, which can still indicate priority.

Billy_Dean
11-29-2003, 12:34 PM
So what do we replace floppy and hard with then? And what about AC&#092;DC? Of course we&#39;d have to replace the insert and enter keys. The F keys have to go too, they sound too much like fff-you-know-what&#33;

:)

bigboab
11-29-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@29 November 2003 - 12:34
So what do we replace floppy and hard with then? And what about AC&#092;DC?&nbsp; Of course we&#39;d have to replace the insert and enter keys.&nbsp; The F keys have to go too, they sound too much like fff-you-know-what&#33;

:)
You would also have to get rid of DVD Billy. I mean it sounds like an updated version of an old disease. CD sounds like seedy. Where is it all going to end. It is impossible to be PC on a PC.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@29 November 2003 - 13:34
So what do we replace floppy and hard with then? And what about AC&#092;DC? Of course we&#39;d have to replace the insert and enter keys. The F keys have to go too, they sound too much like fff-you-know-what&#33;

:)
Why would you want to replace any of those.

Billy_Dean
11-29-2003, 01:06 PM
It&#39;s a well known fact that the drives were named after penises. AC&#092;DC sounds like it swings both ways. Insert and enter is obviously referring to sexual intercourse.

I feel the whole PC was named by a bunch of deviants.


:)

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@29 November 2003 - 14:06
It&#39;s a well known fact that the drives were named after penises. AC&#092;DC sounds like it swings both ways. Insert and enter is obviously referring to sexual intercourse.

I feel the whole PC was named by a bunch of deviants.


:)
Honestly ?

hobbes
11-29-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+29 November 2003 - 14:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 29 November 2003 - 14:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Billy_Dean@29 November 2003 - 14:06
It&#39;s a well known fact that the drives were named after penises.&nbsp; AC&#092;DC&nbsp; sounds like it swings both ways. Insert and enter is obviously referring to sexual intercourse.&nbsp;

I feel the whole PC was named by a bunch of deviants.


:)
Honestly ? [/b][/quote]
I think "master and slave" appropriately decribes the relationship between the two components. It is neither personal nor racial. Had it been "Master and nigger", I think the offense would be obvious.


Should we not use the expression "slave to fashion"?
Should we change our titles in K-Lite, I am currently a "K-Lite Master".

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by hobbes@29 November 2003 - 19:20
I think "master and slave" appropriately decribes the relationship between the two components. It is neither personal nor racial. Had it been "Master and nigger", I think the offense would be obvious.

However it is possibly worthy of note that this is the particular mental picture you made.

Reinforcing the point that there are obvious connotations when these words are used in tandem.

hobbes
11-29-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+29 November 2003 - 19:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 29 November 2003 - 19:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@29 November 2003 - 19:20
I think "master and slave" appropriately decribes the relationship between the two components. It is neither personal nor racial. Had it been "Master and nigger", I think the offense would be obvious.

However it is possibly worthy of note that this is the particular mental picture you made.

Reinforcing the point that there are obvious connotations when these words are used in tandem. [/b][/quote]
I guess my core objection stems from my skepticism that the offended person is genuine in his assertion.

We have too many political correctness nannies running around trying to tell people how to act.

I think I would have to meet the "unidentified worker". How does the offense of one individual merit overthrowing standard computer nomenclature?

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 06:54 PM
To quote myself

"Not a simple annoyance, but a genuine hurt and offence."



Does it really matter how many people are offended, should it really be a matter of scale. Surely even one person being hurt is more important than computer nomenclature.

In any case if one person is really offended then there has to be a distinct possibility that others will also be offended.

SniperInTheShadows
11-29-2003, 07:09 PM
I&#39;ve thought about this some more, and this is just a possibly theory asto why thing&#39;s like this happen but it seem&#39;s to me that this is happening because some peep&#39;s aren&#39;t willing to let go of the past&#33;?

Master and Slave no longer have the same power to them as they used to, the strength of the word&#39;s has become weeker over the year&#39;s due to better acceptence of individual&#39;s right&#39;s, belief&#39;s, religion&#39;s and race, so to me changing something which has no real connection to the word&#39;s origin&#39;s other than to indicate who&#39;s in control and who isn&#39;t is daft.

Perhap&#39;s though if they do insist, they could call them Boss and Worker (same difference really)?

Sniper.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by SniperInTheShadows@29 November 2003 - 20:09
I&#39;ve thought about this some more, and this is just a possibly theory asto why thing&#39;s like this happen but it seem&#39;s to me that this is happening because some peep&#39;s aren&#39;t willing to let go of the past&#33;?

Master and Slave no longer have the same power to them as they used to, the strength of the word&#39;s has become weeker over the year&#39;s due to better acceptence of individual&#39;s right&#39;s, belief&#39;s, religion&#39;s and race, so to me changing something which has no real connection to the word&#39;s origin&#39;s other than to indicate who&#39;s in control and who isn&#39;t is daft.

Perhap&#39;s though if they do insist, they could call them Boss and Worker (same difference really)?

Sniper.
I can see your thinking and where you are coming from here.

However we have a line of reasoning in the UK. It goes along the lines of, it is the person who feels bullied who decides whether or not they feel bullied. It is not the person who is alleged to be the bully who decides on what is acceptable.

Now obviously some people pretend to be hurt, offended or whatever to cause trouble for others. Or indeed to just to seek attention themselves.

This does not mean that we should not take their feelings seriously. We must listen to everyone&#39;s argument and take a balanced view.

hobbes
11-29-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@29 November 2003 - 19:54
To quote myself

"Not a simple annoyance, but a genuine hurt and offence."



Does it really matter how many people are offended, should it really be a matter of scale. Surely even one person being hurt is more important than computer nomenclature.

In any case if one person is really offended then there has to be a distinct possibility that others will also be offended.
One person will take exception to anything and everything. I can&#39;t cater to one mans&#39; offense, just as the world does not cater to my personal "issues".

I refuse to make the extrapolation that an individual offense is held by many others. If he is so dead offended, then the impetus is on him to gather a petition of signatures to let us know that these words are still caustic and this nomenclature IS an issue. This burden will test the veracity of his offense.

I would certainly be willing to rename them at that time.

Rat Faced
11-29-2003, 09:04 PM
I find that offensive hobbes.










:P

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by hobbes@29 November 2003 - 21:54

One person will take exception to anything and everything. I can&#39;t cater to one mans&#39; offense, just as the world does not cater to my personal "issues".

I refuse to make the extrapolation that an individual offense is held by many others. If he is so dead offended, then the impetus is on him to gather a petition of signatures to let us know that these words are still caustic and this nomenclature IS an issue. This burden will test the veracity of his offense.

I would certainly be willing to rename them at that time.
Should the burden be placed entirely on the person who feels themself to be the victim.

Your points are fair and well made. However if the person is deeply offended, then surely it is a matter for all of us to provide the resources to establish whether his position is valid or not. If his point is reasonably made and has some prima facie virtue, then I would say that it is the authorities who should establish the true position. If necessary by reference to the courts.

That may not coincide with popular opinion, however right doesn&#39;t always do that.

j2k4
11-29-2003, 09:33 PM
I don&#39;t buy the whole idea of undefined victimhood.

J&#39;Pol has said the bully doesn&#39;t determine that an act of bullying has taken place.

I was once accosted by a female who demanded her male coterie force me to leave a drinking establishment based on her perception that the difference in our relative sizes oppressed her to the point she was afraid (she was tiny-4 foot-something).

I had not interacted with her or her friends, indeed, I hadn&#39;t left my barstool, and was at no point within 15-20 feet of her, yet she insisted, "He&#39;s scaring me&#33;&#33;" (I don&#39;t think she was drunk, but she may have been high) In any case, one of her entourage felt compelled to approach me with a sneer on his face.

At that point, I did arise from my stool.

He gathered her and the rest of her crew up, and left.

I have nothing but empathy for legitimate victims, and have stepped in on many occasions to stop bullies, BUT:

If someone is set on playing the part, and these serial victims are indulged, we are doomed.

I, for one, will not abide it. ;)

hobbes
11-29-2003, 09:37 PM
Fine JPol, why don&#39;t we let every individual who has any complaint clog our courts with their personal issues.

I feel that any strongly held opinion, which is legimate, will find many sympathetic ears and garning support should not be a problem.

I think the accusor must make a certain effort before imposing his problem upon us. In this case, I can see how people might say, "I can see where he might find offense", but you can see how troublesome it would be if everyone who thought something was "offensive" got to take their personal agendas to court.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 09:41 PM
j2

Once again good points, well presented with an anecdote for additional flavour (yes it does have a u in it). A good anecdote at that.

I refer you to two earlier posts, where I say that :

"Not a simple annoyance, but a genuine hurt and offence."

I do not think my position is terribly at variance from hobbes and yourself. I merely express the opinion that we should consider these things in a balanced way and not just dismiss them out of hand. Simply because we find something to be preposterous, that does not mean that others do. You only have to look at how hand gestures, for example are viewed differently throughout the world to put this in a proper perspective.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by hobbes@29 November 2003 - 22:37
Fine JPol, why don&#39;t we let every individual who has any complaint clog our courts with their personal issues.

I feel that any strongly held opinion, which is legimate, will find many sympathetic ears and garning support should not be a problem.

I think the accusor must make a certain effort before imposing his problem upon us.&nbsp; In this case, I can see how people might say, "I can see where he might find offense", but you can see how troublesome it would be if everyone who thought something was "offensive" got to take their personal agendas to court.
Again I can&#39;t disagree with your logic.

However we must look at this on a case by case basis. His personal resources, educational background etc must be taken into account. Some people are more able to fight their own battles than others.

j2k4
11-29-2003, 10:03 PM
J&#39;Pol-

At bottom, I agree with you, as ever.

I suffer the remnants of having been around too many people who like to complain.

I would always entertain the genuinely perceived offense with an eye toward arbitration of the grievance, but I feel, still, that the trivial would overwhelm not only the courts, but us, too.

That is to say, if you have a grievance, air it, but don&#39;t presume legal recourse-and in our country, these ideas spread like wildfire.

We don&#39;t need anymore reasons to seek legal counsel, neither do we require redress for every little offense, genuine or not.

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 10:11 PM
What is it they say, it is better that 10,000 guilty men go free than that 1 innocent man is convicted. Is this not similar, must we not at least consider these things.

Must we not investigate every instance where there is a genuine reason for concern. I know - there&#39;s the rub. Who decides when it merits arbitration - the arbitrater, thank you so much Heller you bar steward.

Though I do see how it entirely different when one has such a litigious culture as yours. However are there not penalties for frivolous litigation.

j2k4
11-29-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@29 November 2003 - 18:11
Though I do see how it entirely different when one has such a litigious culture as yours. However are there not penalties for frivolous litigation.
In certain cases, yes, but there is always another step or appeal, too.

Judges used to be adept at tossing trivial proceedings out of court; today such decisiveness is rare, indeed-money, and/or it&#39;s lack, also plays a part.

I&#39;ve known poor people who made their way by suing people.

I&#39;ve known rich people who have oppressed others by the sheer weight of their (legal) change purse.

Both are animals of inclination. ;)

J'Pol
11-29-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by j2k4@30 November 2003 - 00:08
Both are animals of inclination. ;)
As are the regulars here.

I think we can let this thread pass into obscurity. It seems it has run it&#39;s natural course. We don&#39;t want to descend into pleasant, self-satisfied chatting. Or inquiring after the size of each others arses.

Unless someone has a stunning new contribution.

Lamsey
11-30-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@29 November 2003 - 23:37
I think we can let this thread pass into obscurity. It seems it has run it&#39;s natural course. We don&#39;t want to descend into pleasant, self-satisfied chatting. Or inquiring after the size of each others arses.

Unless someone has a stunning new contribution.
No, don&#39;t say that - if you declare a thread dead then it automatically becomes a place where people can chat with their mates about how big their appendages are ;)

j2k4
11-30-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Lamsey@29 November 2003 - 21:04
if you declare a thread dead then it automatically becomes a place where people can chat with their mates about how big their appendages are ;)
Did you bring this up for a reason, Liam?

And watch yourself around the Wee one-just &#39;cuz she&#39;s a big girl now, don&#39;t you go chatting about appendages and such.

:)

J&#39;Pol-

Let&#39;s you and I forego the spam, just this once, eh? :lol:

clocker
11-30-2003, 01:50 AM
I find myself increasingly curious about the original complaintant.

We have three pages here devoted to the abstract methods of managing a complaint, yet we have no source knowlege at all about the particulars of this specific grievance.

Who is this person?
Is the rest of his/her job so absolutely perfect that the nomenclature on some boxes is a noisome irritation?
How does this person manage to deal with day to day life?

I still think that this is a prank run amok.

MagicNakor
11-30-2003, 02:04 AM
It certainly sounds like a bad joke some computer geeks thought up. ;)

:ninja:

j2k4
11-30-2003, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by clocker@29 November 2003 - 21:50
I find myself increasingly curious about the original complaintant.

We have three pages here devoted to the abstract methods of managing a complaint, yet we have no source knowlege at all about the particulars of this specific grievance.

Who is this person?
Is the rest of his/her job so absolutely perfect that the nomenclature on some boxes is a noisome irritation?
How does this person manage to deal with day to day life?

I still think that this is a prank run amok.
At this point in your new career you can ill-afford to learn everything anew, eh? :lol:

Billy_Dean
11-30-2003, 08:51 AM
I have to go with Hobbes on this one ..

Originally posted by Hobbes
If he is so dead offended, then the impetus is on him to gather a petition of signatures to let us know that these words are still caustic and this nomenclature IS an issue.

In the real world, events have a habit of taking care of themselves, eventually. If an issue arises that merits a change in the law, it is soon picked up. People talk about it, newspapers and TV pick it up, the topic refuses to die. Eventually it becomes a political issue, where it is dealt with, one way or the other..

What it truly needs is to be kept out of the courts, especially somewhere like the UK where they are opening night courts to ease the backlog of cases.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was the original "request" to companies.

‘We would request that each manufacturer, supplier and contractor review, identify and remove/change any identification or labeling of equipment components that could be interpreted as discriminatory or offensive in nature.’

This was the guy&#39;s remark ..

“It appears that some folks have taken this a little too literally.”



:)

J'Pol
11-30-2003, 02:28 PM
Are night courts being opened in the UK, I had not heard this.

Is this in all of the UK or just a specific part, given that Scotland has an entirely different legal system, an entirely different structure of courts, judges, prosecuting body etc.

Also given that Law and Oder is a devolved issue, has the Scottish Executive decided to adopt this practice.

Will it be civil courts as well as criminal.

Have you a source for this development Billy, I am genuinely intrigued.

(Sorry to go off topic and I realise this is spam j2, but it does genuinely interest me)

Billy_Dean
11-30-2003, 07:27 PM
Looks like I&#39;m the one not keeping up with the news JP, then again, I am on the other side of the world.

Night courts idea to be abandoned. (http://www.talkleft.com/archives/001758.html)


:)

Alex H
11-30-2003, 11:09 PM
Californian officials? Its obvious&#33; They are trying to justify their jobs to Arnie cause he wants to get rid of the huge budget deficit&#33;

(Although if that is the case, they have just shown how futile and meaningless their jobs are)

What about Cat 5 network cable? Isn&#39;t that just conveniently categorizing and labling something so we don&#39;t have to think about the real issues involved? Should we give our cables first names?