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<TROUBLE^MAKER>
01-26-2004, 05:20 AM
Government adviser: killing children with defects acceptable

NICHOLAS CHRISTIAN


A GOVERNMENT adviser on genetics has sparked fury by suggesting it might be acceptable to destroy children with ‘defects’ soon after they are born.

John Harris, a member of the Human Genetics Commission, told a meeting at Westminster he did not see any distinction between aborting a fully grown unborn baby at 40 weeks and killing a child after it had been born.

Harris, who is a professor of bioethics at Manchester University, would not be drawn on which defects or problems might be used as grounds for ending a baby’s life, or how old a child might be while it could still be destroyed.

Harris was reported to have said that he did not believe that killing a child was always inexcusable.

In addition, it was claimed that he did not believe that there was any ‘moral change’ that occurred between when the baby was in the womb and when it had been brought into the world.



He did not say how old a child might be while it could still be destroyed


Harris, who also gives advice to doctors as a member of the ethics committee of the British Medical Association (BMA), is understood to have argued that there was no moral distinction between aborting a foetus found by tests to have defects and disposing of a child where the parents discovered the problems at birth.

The words drew a furious response from anti-abortion campaigners. The Pro-Life lobby group, who had members present at the meeting, noted what Harris had said and condemned his words.

Julia Millington, the group’s spokeswoman, said: "It is frightening to think that university students are being educated by somebody who endorses the killing of new-born babies, and equally worrying to discover that such a person is the establishment’s ‘preferred’ bioethicist."

However, Michael Wilkes, the chairman of the BMA’s ethics committee, claimed that Harris was simply trying to encourage debate and consistent thinking.

He said: "There are many who might concur that there is no difference between a full-term foetus and a new-born baby, although the majority would see there is a substantial difference. Abortion is legal, but termination after birth is killing."

In the past, Harris has spoken of the need to allow people to buy and sell human organs as a means of increasing supplies for transplant operations.

He also recently expressed support for the sex selection of babies for social reasons.

He said: "If it isn’t wrong to wish for a bonny bouncing baby girl, why would it be wrong to make use of technology to play fairy godmother?"

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=93982004

<TROUBLE^MAKER>
01-26-2004, 05:44 AM
http://www.dadi.org/4D.gif

SMILING FROM THE WOMB
Headline news from Sky News
UK, Friday September 12, 2003

http://www.dadi.org/wombsmil.htm


Pioneering scanning techniques have produced astonishing images from inside the womb which show babies apparently smiling and crying.

j2k4
01-26-2004, 05:47 AM
I&#39;ve been waiting for this.

It was inevitable.

If such a thing is ever looked upon as "right", what will ever be "wrong" again?

Busyman
01-26-2004, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by j2k4@26 January 2004 - 06:47
I&#39;ve been waiting for this.

It was inevitable.

If such a thing is ever looked upon as "right", what will ever be "wrong" again?
I agree, that is frigging ridiculous.

Hopefully this is just that rantings of one government advisor who won&#39;t have a job advising the government much longer.

100%
01-26-2004, 06:39 AM
Evolution & the survival of the most beautiful

Busyman
01-26-2004, 08:13 AM
I just saw Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel and there is a guy who was born amputated. The thing is, this guy wrestles in high school and so far this season has won 23 and lost 8. He is the top wrestler in his county.

So fuck this so called advisor and his culling of the "defective".

Barbarossa
01-26-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Busyman@26 January 2004 - 07:13
I just saw Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel and there is a guy who was born amputated.
What - they can amputate limbs in utero now??? :o

Busyman
01-26-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by barbarossa+26 January 2004 - 12:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (barbarossa @ 26 January 2004 - 12:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@26 January 2004 - 07:13
I just saw Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel and there is a guy who was born amputated.
What - they can amputate limbs in utero now??? :o [/b][/quote]
No the guy said the doctor's call it something like genetic amputation; not quite sure.
He definitely said the doctor's had to give it a name with the amputation in it. An "amputation" was not actually "performed".

Biggles
01-26-2004, 08:53 PM
The question is, did he advocate this policy or was he simply asking people to consider the rational implications of very late abortions? 40 weeks is after all a full term pregnancy. I suspect the gentleman was presenting complex arguments in a debate on ethics - those with a fixed lobby like Pro-Life or Pro Choice tend to be too focused on their own message to participate productively in such academic nicities.

With regards to such policies, they have been tried and found wanting. The 19th century Eugenics thinking was a direct precurser to some fairly wild social policies in a surprisingly diverse number of countries. In some States in the US in the 1920s it was not uncommon for criminals to be sterilised - especially if they were somewhat dusky in orientation. Eugenics thinking crept into a number of social policies in the UK and, of course, in Nazi Germany, where they were taken to (some would say) their logical extreme. In an effort to improve racial stock a slow policy of exterminiation of the disabled took place and enforced sterilisation of those whose gene pool produced the defects. Not a pretty policy which ever way one cuts it.

I do not believe we are on the brink or anywhere near such lunacy.

MagicNakor
01-27-2004, 02:01 AM
Sounds to me that he was trying to get people to think on the "other side" of the issue; he is an ethics professor after all.

:ninja:

Alex H
01-27-2004, 02:29 AM
My reasoning on the subject has always been: If the mother died, would the child survive?

This is not in the same context as a nature documentary (you know a lion comes along, eats the mother antelope and the baby is left on it&#39;s own), I mean it in terms of: can other adults look after the child if the mother dies? If the mother dies, say 4 months into pregnancy, the foetus will die.

So, I think Prof. Harris is speaking out against late term abortions. If the mother dies 8 months into a pregnancy, the foetus can still be saved and is able to grow, and be looked after by other adults. If this can happen, it is the same as a regular birth, i.e. there is a baby.

The "fairygodmother" line is another good trick of Harris&#39;. You may wish for a baby of a specific gender, but are you prepared to forsake your own desires and let nature decide? If not, then the logical next step is terminating a foetus with defects. And since an 8 month foetus (with or without defects) can survive after the death of the mother, why not just kill a mentally retarded baby?

I think Harris has done a good job of inciting controversy on this subject, but I also think the Pro-Life group should read between the lines.

hobbes
01-27-2004, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Busyman+26 January 2004 - 13:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 26 January 2004 - 13:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by barbarossa@26 January 2004 - 12:48
<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@26 January 2004 - 07:13
I just saw Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel and there is a guy who was born amputated.
What - they can amputate limbs in utero now??? :o
No the guy said the doctor's call it something like genetic amputation; not quite sure.
He definitely said the doctor's had to give it a name with the amputation in it. An "amputation" was not actually "performed". [/b][/quote]
Amniotic bands can encircle and constrict limbs and cause "in utero" limb amputations.

Arm
01-27-2004, 03:53 AM
:rolleyes: Abortions a pretty boring topic. Why don&#39;t you redneck fundamentalists and liberals find something else to argue about?

Busyman
01-27-2004, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Arm@27 January 2004 - 04:53
:rolleyes: Abortions a pretty boring topic. Why don&#39;t you redneck fundamentalists and liberals find something else to argue about?
Why don&#39;t you leave your postings to another thread if this one does not interest you?

j2k4
01-27-2004, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Busyman+27 January 2004 - 00:05--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 27 January 2004 - 00:05)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Arm@27 January 2004 - 04:53
:rolleyes: Abortions a pretty boring topic. Why don&#39;t you redneck fundamentalists and liberals find something else to argue about?
Why don&#39;t you leave your postings to another thread if this one does not interest you? [/b][/quote]
Arm knows trolling. ;)