The Deffinition Of Murder

[Zardoz]

I am a little curious.
How do Americans define MURDER?
Murder in the First Degree?

Aren’t the criteria?

Motive, This person has committed a crime we abhor
Means, All the Resources of the State
Opportunity, The person is on DEATH ROW

So all your capital punishments aren't "Punishment" they are MURDER

How dare a Government that MURDERS CHILDREN moralise about TERRORISM

[Ron]

:blink:

Is this supposed to actually make sense?

[alan36uk]

Thanks Ron I thought I was going mad.
I think he had to much to drink :D

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Ron@5 March 2003 - 18:04
:blink:

Is this supposed to actually make sense?


Of course the murder of children doesn't make sense.
But if you don't know that America has executed minors in Texas under Bush
And now he has got a holier than thou attitude.

[Zardoz]

America is the only Western country that STATE MURDERS CHILDREN

[RPerry]

Sounds a little Anti - American to me, but I'll comment on it anyway without paying attention to that detail.

Capital Punishment exists as a deterent. Yes, Two wrongs do not make a right, however, There must be a suitable punishment to keep others from just deciding to do as they please.

I personally do not like capital punishment, I seem to feel more for the family of the ones who committed the crime, rather than the one being executed though. The one being executed probably deserved it. The Mother, Father, etc of the person are being punished as well, and thats what hurts me.

Despite what others may think about Americans in general, I have not met a person born in my country yet that agrees with everything our government does. We all disagree about a great many things amongst each other, just as some of us on this forum that are from different Countries disagree. Now, doesn't that make us more alike than we would like to think??

[Ron]

Zardoz, I'm not disagreeing with you, because I have no knowledge on this.
But do you have any links that might help me form an opinion on this?

[RPerry]

ummmmm, this topic turned anti-abortion on me???? :o

[alan36uk]

We all bleed the same colour..we are not on this earth forever.
Zardos you sound like you got a chip on your shoulder.
Get over it.We only live once.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by RPerry@5 March 2003 - 18:18
Sounds a little Anti - American to me, but I'll comment on it anyway without paying attention to that detail.

Capital Punishment exists as a deterent. Yes, Two wrongs do not make a right, however, There must be a suitable punishment to keep others from just deciding to do as they please.

I personally do not like capital punishment, I seem to feel more for the family of the ones who committed the crime, rather than the one being executed though. The one being executed probably deserved it. The Mother, Father, etc of the person are being punished as well, and thats what hurts me.

Despite what others may think about Americans in general, I have not met a person born in my country yet that agrees with everything our government does. We all disagree about a great many things amongst each other, just as some of us on this forum that are from different Countries disagree. Now, doesn't that make us more alike than we would like to think??



The only thing important here is that the deliberate premeditated taking of a life is WRONG. NO mitigating Circumstances

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Ron@5 March 2003 - 18:19
Zardoz, I'm not disagreeing with you, because I have no knowledge on this.
But do you have any links that might help me form an opinion on this?



Amnesty International (http://www.amnestyusa.org/rightsforall/dp/)

[RPerry]

Zardoz, the bible says " the wages of sin is death". Now, would you like to take the mitigating circumstances that someone died that you might live, or just accept that you are condemned?

seriously, there are many things in this world that are wrong. Everyday, laws are passed to help things get a little better. Then without fail, something happens and we all take two steps backwards. Finger pointing serves no purpose, we are equally flawed. My motto in life is to treat others how you would like to be treated yourself. If we all could do this all the time, the world would be a much better place ;)

[Zardoz]

@Ron
My Fiancée and I were thinking of Emigrating to the USA and so we investigated the country and its laws etc
We were so appalled that the USA is probably the last place we would live in.

Many countries are worse but few hold themselves so pure


Also I am not anti American just anti America and all the forces that make it what I hate

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by RPerry@5 March 2003 - 18:34
Zardoz, the bible says " the wages of sin is death". Now, would you like to take the mitigating circumstances that someone died that you might live, or just accept that you are condemned?

seriously, there are many things in this world that are wrong. Everyday, laws are passed to help things get a little better. Then without fail, something happens and we all take two steps backwards. Finger pointing serves no purpose, we are equally flawed. My motto in life is to treat others how you would like to be treated yourself. If we all could do this all the time, the world would be a much better place ;)



And vengeance is a hate crime
Only heathens would attribute such an act to a GOD

Where are all the fingers pointing?

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by alan36uk@5 March 2003 - 18:20
We all bleed the same colour..we are not on this earth forever.
Zardos you sound like you got a chip on your shoulder.
Get over it.We only live once.

And we all die sooner than insurance company predictions if Bush forces us to armageddon.

[Ron]

Well, I read the link you gave me Zardoz, and I have mixed feelings about the death penalty.
I'm against it, but if someone would hurt my wife, son, or anyone close to me, I WOULD kill.
Some people are not worthy of being alive IMO.
As for the age: most of them were seventeen (one or two were 16), so they were old enough to know what they were doing as far as I'm concerned.
So the real question isn't whether they should be put to death, but if they were liable for their crimes.
I say they were. They commited serious crimes, fled from the scene, because they KNEW they were wrong. They have to face the consequences, I think.
Whether that consequence has to be death is another question.
Anyway, if you ask a 17 year old if he is still a child, he'll probably laugh in your face, but when he commits a brutal crime, he suddenly is?
I really don't know WHATt to think about it.
Both sides have valid arguments.

:wacko:

[Skillian]

A 16 yr old should face the consequences, true.

But to be too young to vote, but old enough to be put to death by your own government surely can't be right. I for one know I am a very different person now than I was at 16/17.

[Ron]

Well, a few years back, you had to be 21 to vote here.
Now, it's 18.
Certain people want to make that 16 now.
Will that make it OK to execute a 16 year old?
I don't think the voting age is a correct measure to establish the minimum death penalty age.If you're old enough to willingly kill, you're old enough to face the consequences for that too, I should say.
Again, whether that has to be death, is another thing.
I'd say no, except if my loved ones were concerned.
Hypocrit, I know, but at least honest.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Ron@5 March 2003 - 19:19
Well, a few years back, you had to be 21 to vote here.
Now, it's 18.
Certain people want to make that 16 now.
Will that make it OK to execute a 16 year old?
I don't think the voting age is a correct measure to establish the minimum death penalty age.If you're old enough to willingly kill, you're old enough to face the consequences for that too, I should say.
Again, whether that has to be death, is another thing.
I'd say no, except if my loved ones were concerned.
Hypocrit, I know, but at least honest.



Hardly a hypocrit
vengeance is personal not state sanctioned

even American law has discretion for loss of judgement or sanity

[Skillian]

I think the reason most countries don't let you vote at 16 is that you are still too young to have fully formed your opinions about the world. This applies with the death penalty too. I don't think being able to vote would make it OK, I'm just surprised that a country could believe that someone who is too young to express his opinion about the government is old enough to be executed.

I too think if someone in my family was murdered I would want the murderer dead, but that is why we have institutions to make the judgement without the bias caused by emotions and desires for revenge.

Quick Q: if the victim's family expressed their desire not to have the death penalty imposed, could this have an effect on the judge's ruling?

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Skillian@5 March 2003 - 19:32
I think the reason most countries don't let you vote at 16 is that you are still too young to have fully formed your opinions about the world. This applies with the death penalty too. I don't think being able to vote would make it OK, I'm just surprised that a country could believe that someone who is too young to express his opinion about the government is old enough to be executed.

I too think if someone in my family was murdered I would want the murderer dead, but that is why we have institutions to make the judgement without the bias caused by emotions and desires for revenge.

Quick Q: if the victim's family expressed their desire not to have the death penalty imposed, could this have an effect on the judge's ruling?



Tje judgement over a is absolute the taking of a life life in vengeance is wrong irrespective of circumstances
Murder is Murder

Help yourselves to the cop outs

[Ron]

Well, I know several girls who got pregnant, and married at 15, 16.
So they're old enough to marry and raise kids, but not responsible for their own actions?


I ... we have institutions to make the judgement without the bias caused by emotions and desires for revenge.
Actually, that sounds like somebody who is PRO death penalty would say. :)

[Skillian]

That does sound pro capital punishment I suppose. I was talking about judicial institutions in general, rather than those in the states that practice the death penalty. Unfortunately, in those cases I believe that the motive behind the punishment is revenge, which has no place in the idea of justice. How can one type of killing be OK? IMO it is the ultimate kind of hypocrisy.

[alan36uk]

Bring them to White Hart Lane...I will lay on coaches so
we can all goto Highbury..How much punishment is that ?
Life sentence :D

[insanebassman]

God kills as a form of punishment, if you beleive in any western religions. As for Hindi, and Buddism, I do not know... Japanese old philosaphy is how I base my feelings.

Fuck up too much, you die.

I think the death penalty is not used enough.

Violent Rapists, Child Molesters and murderers should face an undignified death. (By murderers I mean those who kill without need, such as robbery, greed or for the thrill etc. )

My opinion, call me a barbarian or what ever... It may not be right, but it is how I feel. :P

[Skillian]

Sorry, double post.

[alan36uk]

Originally posted by Skillian@5 March 2003 - 21:21
Sorry, double post.
Skillian what you drinking ?
I want some lol

[Skillian]

God kills as a form of punishment, if you beleive in any western religions. As for Hindi, and Buddism, I do not know... Japanese old philosaphy is how I base my feelings.

Firstly, justice and the law is not based on religion. Secondly even if it was, it is not up to the judges to second-guess God, Allah, whatever and do His job for Him.

[ToraBoraDweller]

Zardoz has a point here.
There is no perfect lawsystem .
Executions can not be undone . :(
Life imprisonment can,history has proved too many miscariages of justice!

[Bender]

Originally posted by ToraBoraDweller@5 March 2003 - 21:36
Zardoz has a point here.
There is no perfect lawsystem .
Executions can not be undone . :(
Life imprisonment can,history has proved too many miscariages of justice!
Right, how many were executed in the US, turning out to be not guilty after all? :o
What do they say then: sorry, made a little mistake? :angry:

[Ron]

That's exactly the reason why I'm against it.
But I would still want my revenge if my loved ones were involved.......

Just curious here, but would you prefer death, or life inprisonment?
Life can be a looooong time in there.....

[ToraBoraDweller]

Depends if perp is guilty.
I would choose death ,but in the form of suicide and not
by hand of others.
If your innocent you allways keep hope,..?

[insanebassman]

Good Point Skillian... valid arguement.

Like I said, just my thought on the matter.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by Bender@5 March 2003 - 22:36
Right, how many were executed in the US, turning out to be not guilty after all? :o
What do they say then: sorry, made a little mistake? :angry:
How many have been guilty, but have gone free to repeat their crime?

What do they say then? Sorry?

[Ron]

I have very ambiguous feelings on this matter.
However, I would rather see 10 guilty people walk free, rather than one innocent man executed.
....Except if one of those ten harmed my family. :ermm:
But what really boggles my mind, is that the state won't execute a sick convict.
If a person has the flu for instance, they will postpone the execution until he's cured.
I read they gave someone a new heart first, before executing him...
(have no proof of this, but I think it had something to do with cruel and unusual punishment)
And oh yes, suicide is strictly forbidden too. :)
Don't you dare take matters in your own hands!!!
The state, and nobody but the state will kill you.
Crazy people, those Americans. :)
On the other hand, what to do with people like Bundy, Dahmer and Berkowitz?

[Skillian]

But what really boggles my mind, is that the state won't execute a sick convict.
If a person has the flu for instance, they will postpone the execution until he's cured.
I read they gave someone a new heart first, before executing him...
(have no proof of this, but I think it had something to do with cruel and unusual punishment)

I didn't know that. It does seem cruel and unusual.

So not if they're sick, but it is fine to execute someone who is mentally ill? This has been done numerous times. I don't have the evidence but I'm certain it's true. There is a very interesting chapter about all this in Michael Moore's new book. Some of it is quite disturbing.

[Ron]

Originally posted by Skillian@6 March 2003 - 05:10
I didn't know that. It does seem cruel and unusual.


LOL, no. :o
The state considers it "cruel and unusual punishment" if a convict is sick when he's executed. So they cure him first, kill him later.
Personally, I think it's just a waste of money, especially in the case of the heart transplant.
Somebody else could have use it a lot longer than just for a few weeks/months......

[Skillian]

:"> Ok I see

But it does seem cruel to nurse a man back to health only to kill him :blink: And unusual!

[Ron]

Exactly.
Cruel and unusual either way. :)

[kAb]

i actually support capital punishment if there is way more than enough evidence (DNA PROOF IS A MUST) to prove the suspect guilty.

keeping sickos and psychos in jail is a waste of tax dollars, i say get rid of people who would rather kill than live a nice life.

remember minority report? they might've fucked up a couple times, but there was no murder...

but i think to put some on death row, you need lots of DNA proof etc.

[Skillian]

remember minority report? they might've fucked up a couple times, but there was no murder...

The way I saw Minority Report was the system was a bad thing, and the film celebrated the system being taken down at the end.

edit: Not that Hollywood is always right about this stuff ;) , but I'm with thenm on this one.

[Ron]

Well, the problem is: what is enough proof?
A jury doesn't convict a man to death, unless they are certain he's guilty.
Then, there's almost always an appeal.
So many people that are absolutely, positively sure that the verdict is correct, and still innocent men get sent to death row.
A year or two back, we had a documentary about that here, and unless I'm very much mistaken, they talked about 90 people being released from death row in a one or two year period.
Assuming that some of those were released on technicalities, that still leaves an awfull big amount of innocent people convicted. Again, I'm not against it as such (hell, I'd even push the button myself in some cases), but WHEN can you be absolutely sure?
And who decides that?
One fuck up is one fuck up too many.

Edit: typos

[ToraBoraDweller]

DNA-'proof'and other techniques are developed and carried out
by humans.
So ig a lab-technician screws up :wub: : YOU are screwed. :x

[Zardoz]

I've read every post and I completely understand all your arguments, however diverse the circumstances, and therefore I am forced to reiterate my question



Is not the deliberate and premeditated taking of any human life under any circumstances MURDER?

[Ron]

That question isn't as easy to answer as you think.
"Murder" is a legal term, invented by the juridical (sp?) system.
According to Oxfords dictionary, it's:

the crime of killing sb deliberately

Someone who commits murder will be a murderer:

A murderer is someone who illegally and intentionally kills another person.

The keywords there are "crime" and "illegally".
If a court convicts a person to death, it's neither a crime, nor illegal because they are the law.

If I were a grunt in some army, preparing for battle, would I be preparing for murder?
Legally, I wouldn't, because the government gave me permission to kill, so it wouldn't be a crime.
In case of a trial:
Are the convicting jurymembers murderers?
The prosecutor?
The judge who rules the conviction?
The executioner who performs the execution?
Or maybe we should start with the cops who catch and arrest a criminal, knowing he will get the death penalty?
It's all a question of semantics, really.
Legally, none of the above are murder, EXCEPT if you convict an innocent man to death, but that's just IMHO.
Then there's the issue of "justifiable" homicide.
Does it exist?
Suppose you would know a terrorist had hired a small plane and was going to crash on a shopping mall, killing numerous people. Would you allow the authorities to take him out before he achieves his goal? If you do, you allow them to kill someone who hasn't committed a crime yet. If you don't, you would be guilty of killing those people by refusing to act in their defense.
What about a pathological killer? Would it be alright to expose other prisoners and guards to his murderous tendencies?
Let's take it a little closer to home.
Suppose (God forbid) that someone killed your wife.
The court convicts him to life imprisonment.
Now, in Belgium, we have prisons where inmates have TV, video, hot plates, fitness equipment, hell, even a PC!!! in their cells. The average prisoner costs € 65.000 a year. (about the same in US $)
Would you like it, if your hard earned tax dollars would get wasted on the guy that ruined your life, while he leads a carefree life? Getting medical treatment that you couldn't afford?
And I'm not even touching euthanasia here......

[Zardoz]

Good to see so many reasoned opinions and not the ranting I expected from my post
As you have gathered by now I love to provoke responses over emotive subjects

This is now getting to the rub obviously there are reasons why "MURDER" has to be committed
and the taking of life is justified. Self defence, the defence of the realm and the people
also euthanasia should in my opinion be legal (Obviously under extreme regulation)
I personally support the legal status of abortion but hopefully this will remain a separate debate otherwise we could the first Intelligent thought and debate every moral decision since and not get bogged down as much.
I can also see a circumstance where persons involved could justify retribution

If my wife were murdered I would do everything in my power to exact vengeance upon the perpetrator
But would then take the punishment that my country and I as a citizen deemed fit.
And my personal lack of control and morality would not be thrusted upon the state

But even though I know myself capable of murder.
I still vehemently believe that any country that has the death penalty should redefine what it considers decent and civilised
and think again before so firmly positioning itself on 'the moral high ground
'
People will consider me a hypocrite for my varied beliefs
And I hope some do.
Having your own opinions is vital for a healthy humanity
How can we judge what is proper if there is no decent?

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Zardoz@5 March 2003 - 18:58
...How dare a Government that MURDERS CHILDREN moralise about TERRORISM
What the hell are you talking about?

Elaborate a little more for accurate feedback from the rest of the lounge members..


In the meantime, I am sure that some bible enthuasiasts here can direct you to a quote in the bible, that "you shall be judge by your peers", is basically saying that if you screw up in your community, based on the community's laws, you'll be punished accordingly. Even if capital punishment is deemed as the community's law.

[Rat Faced]

I agree with the death penalty...but like Ron, would rather see 9 guilty not be executed than one innocent executed by mistake..

If murder is the Premeditated Act of killing, then surely every Judge that sends an innocent to the Death Chamber is guilty of the same offence.

At the very least it would be Manslaughter, a lesser crime, but still meaning a long length of Prison Service.

Maybe the answer is to take away the Judges immunity to prosecution to these offences.....then he wouldnt impose the Death Sentence unless there was 'no doubt'...instead of the 'no reasonable doubt' used at the moment.

[PMstudios_server]

When you're talking about child murder... are you talking about abortion? If you are pro-life then there's something wrong with you. Don't give me any of that "god created a baby" crap. It's better for all of society if there are less unwanted children. If you don't want them killed so much, then why don't you adopt them all?

[Ron]

PMS server, before you start flaming, better read the whole thread.
Zardoz was referring to the execution of 16 and 17 year olds, not abortion..... <_<

[I_DONT_SHARE_PORN]

Here in Texas we dont tolerate psycho murders so we Lethal inject those bastards.

[Skillian]

Here in Texas we dont tolerate psycho murders so we Lethal inject those bastards.

Yes. Many, many more than any other state. <_<

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by I_DONT_SHARE_PORN@9 March 2003 - 19:50
Here in Texas we dont tolerate psycho murders so we Lethal inject those bastards.
I think the message is:

1/ What about the minors and

2/ What about the innocents.


You obviously dont inject ALL the Psycho&#39;s....you didnt get George W Bush...

[Ron]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+9 March 2003 - 21:36--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 9 March 2003 - 21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--I_DONT_SHARE_PORN@9 March 2003 - 19:50
Here in Texas we dont tolerate psycho murders so we Lethal inject those bastards.

You obviously dont inject ALL the Psycho&#39;s....you didnt get George W Bush... [/b][/quote]
As the French say: "Touché&#33;".
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gif

[Zardoz]

And what about the case of a man deemed to be insane who was drugged into a state of some sanity so the state could "legally" execute him.

@Spindulik
Elaborate a little more for accurate feedback from the rest of the lounge members..



All the elaboration you could need is Here (http://www.amnestyusa.org/rightsforall/dp/)
if you read the string then you would have found Amnesty International earlier

In the meantime, I am sure that some bible enthuasiasts here can direct you to a quote in the bible, that "you shall be judge by your peers", is basically saying that if you screw up in your community, based on the community&#39;s laws, you&#39;ll be punished accordingly. Even if capital punishment is deemed as the community&#39;s law.
And thats my whole point a community standard so barbaric as to "Murder" it&#39;s children
should look at what it condones before condemning terrorism.

@RPerry

Zardoz, the bible says, " the wages of sin is death". Now, would you like to take the mitigating circumstances that someone died that you might live, or just accept that you are condemned?

Seriously, there are many things in this world that are wrong. Everyday, laws are passed to help things get a little better. Then without fail, something happens and we all take two steps backwards. Finger pointing serves no purpose, we are equally flawed. My motto in life is to treat others how you would like to be treated yourself. If we all could do this all the time, the world would be a much better place ;)

Also any eye for an eye and other bibly quotes, All Contradictory.
but as you say let punnishment be fair and just.

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Ron@10 March 2003 - 01:02
As the French say: "Touché&#33;".
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gif
..as the French say

Help me (in WWII), and I&#39;ll stab you in the back today
I surrender
Who me, no way.
I&#39;ll wait until my butt is in serious trouble
Okay, as long as you don&#39;t hurt me.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Spindulik+11 March 2003 - 15:08--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 11 March 2003 - 15:08)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ron@10 March 2003 - 01:02
As the French say: "Touché&#33;".
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gif
..as the French say

Help me (in WWII), and I&#39;ll stab you in the back today
I surrender
Who me, no way.
I&#39;ll wait until my butt is in serious trouble
Okay, as long as you don&#39;t hurt me. [/b][/quote]

You really should keep it shut and then we could only speculate about your stupidity

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Zardoz+11 March 2003 - 16:17--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 11 March 2003 - 16:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Spindulik@11 March 2003 - 15:08
<!--QuoteBegin--Ron@10 March 2003 - 01:02
As the French say: "Touché&#33;".
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gif
..as the French say

Help me (in WWII), and I&#39;ll stab you in the back today
I surrender
Who me, no way.
I&#39;ll wait until my butt is in serious trouble
Okay, as long as you don&#39;t hurt me.

You really should keep it shut and then we could only speculate about your stupidity[/b][/quote]
My apologies for the sarcastic statements. I was going to delete it, but I believe that I must "eat it with shame", so everyone here can see what I posted.

Although, a lot of U.S. citizens have a dim view on France, they are only educated by the media presented to them. Please excuse them.

Please read this link&#33; Issue One: France and the United States (http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/letters/20030302ediss02p2.asp)

[j2k4]

Wow-talk about a hot button issue&#33;
Lemme throw out a few thoughts:
Skillian-lots of good points, but I find most, if not all, law to be at least rooted in religion, it being probably the first and most effectively unifying force.
Zardoz-any country, any system is fraught with contradictions and quandaries re: it&#39;s legal system-one of the reasons ours is so seemingly incomprehensible (even to us) is that it has been folded, spindled and mutilated by activist legislation so that actual execution is the exception rather than the rule-it currently takes 11-12 years for a death-row inmate to exhaust all the appeals available, and remember, that statistic is the result of only those who actually ARE executed. There are many more who never will be, and so don&#39;t figure into the statistic. In the dark corners of the topic, yes, there are some questionable executions. But what, then, are we to do with those who are undeniably guilty? Contrary to the beliefs of some, they constitute the bulk of death-row inmates.
Some denigrate the death penalty and those who preach it with faulty reasoning along the lines of "How can you be for the death penalty and against abortion?". Let me tell you how, in what I hope is a coherent fashion:
I have yet to see a statistic ( and boy, do we love them) that would indicate how many people do NOT commit murder because of the existence of the death penalty? There is no way to quantify it.
I ask the same question in reverse of our country&#39;s liberal faction: "How can you be for abortion and against the death penalty?" They reply "What if you execute an innocent person?" I would reply "A fetus is quintessentilly innocent; it is the epitome of innocence-how can you abort (murder) it?" Rhetoric and semantics serve only to confuse the issue further. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever seen a "True Believer" of either stripe change his mind; I have debated the point with anti-death-penalty types who wanted to kill me before the the debate was over, though-
I do hope you and your fiancee will re-consider about America-you&#39;re obviously putting more thought into the question than 99% of the rest of the people who come here.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Spindulik+11 March 2003 - 16:12--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 11 March 2003 - 16:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Zardoz@11 March 2003 - 16:17

Originally posted by -Spindulik@11 March 2003 - 15:08
<!--QuoteBegin--Ron@10 March 2003 - 01:02
As the French say: "Touché&#33;".
http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gifhttp://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rotfl.gif
..as the French say

Help me (in WWII), and I&#39;ll stab you in the back today
I surrender
Who me, no way.
I&#39;ll wait until my butt is in serious trouble
Okay, as long as you don&#39;t hurt me.

You really should keep it shut and then we could only speculate about your stupidity
My apologies for the sarcastic statements. I was going to delete it, but I believe that I must "eat it with shame", so everyone here can see what I posted.

Although, a lot of U.S. citizens have a dim view on France, they are only educated by the media presented to them. Please excuse them.

Please read this link&#33; Issue One: France and the United States (http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/letters/20030302ediss02p2.asp) [/b][/quote]



Thank you for your honesty

Like you say we are all manipulated by propoganda

I appologise for the insult

Noone can comment on the bravery of france in WW2 only american bullying
remember anyone who speaks out against Bush&#39;s bullying is a "traitor" so much for the lanf of the FREE

I have read the topic you linked and it shows that if America is now so anti french then the government can&#39;t stoop much lower.

Bush has been far from humane throughout his life why change now he has backed himsekf into a bloodlust of revenge.

[j2k4]

So am I right that it is a hatred of George W. Bush that is at the root of this thread? I thought it was the death penalty and the injustices perceived in how it is practiced in the U.S.
How about true "eye for an eye" or "your life for nothing and we&#39;ll bill your survivers for the bullet we kill YOU with", as practiced by Saddam. Are not "Saddam-sanctioned" and "state-sanctioned" the same, in this case?
Actually, I admire the simplicity of his system.
(Unthinking comment submitted in keeping with the tenor of the last few posts)
Funny how nobody here wants to try on American shoes.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by j2k4@15 March 2003 - 23:08
So am I right that it is a hatred of George W. Bush that is at the root of this thread? I thought it was the death penalty and the injustices perceived in how it is practiced in the U.S.
How about true "eye for an eye" or "your life for nothing and we&#39;ll bill your survivers for the bullet we kill YOU with", as practiced by Saddam. Are not "Saddam-sanctioned" and "state-sanctioned" the same, in this case?
Actually, I admire the simplicity of his system.
(Unthinking comment submitted in keeping with the tenor of the last few posts)
Funny how nobody here wants to try on American shoes.


I would not be an American to save my life
I am nauseated by America’s definition of civilised.
And Bush has the most appalling record on the death penalty.
He is despised for his record as a despot and his mention is valid
due to the amount of "Murders" he sanctioned while governor of Texas.

At least Sadam is more honest than Bush he makes no attempt to play civilised when in reality they are both trigger-happy and bloodthirsty MONSTERS

To repeat myself I am as likely to ever “try on American shoes” as Osama bin Laden is of getting a Green Card, This isn’t reluctance it’s revultion. You’re internal and external policies disgust me.

You can describe youself as unthinking, (In fact I see no alternative) but don&#39;t reduce me to your level.

[j2k4]

I shall henceforth cease and desist in any further effort to relieve you of your ignorance. Why don&#39;t you move from where you currently reside to Iraq? This will have the effect of raising the relative I.Q. in both places.

[BullWinkle]

Personally I see the death penalty of some of the united states, (not sure which states have the death penalty since I don&#39;t live there) as the lesser of 2 evils. You have a person convicted of murder and shows no remorse is perfectly capable of killing again and in several instances has killed several times. In order to save the lives of the people who in the future may run into this guy the state will kill the individual.
Kill one person or let that man go free and kill another 10 people. Both evil but I will choose the lesser evil.

[BullWinkle]

My bad, I didn&#39;t read the last couple posts. Apparently this is all about Bush and Saddam. My previous post still has some relevence then. Saddam used chemical weapons on a his own people and there was no remorse whatsoever. If he is willing to kill his own people what is there to stop him from using these weapons against people he hates? Where Saddam mass murders people Bush orders the death of mass murderers. Yeah he seems like a bad guy to me to. I&#39;ve never heard of people being dragged from thier beds in the middle of the night by Bush&#39;s friends to execute them or torture thier children to get them to confess to things that they may or may not have done.

I&#39;m not saying that Saddam has these weapons now and anything found now maybe planted there by the US to justify thier attack, there is no way to be sure about anything found there now but how many people does Saddam have to kill before people realize their is a problem that needs to be taken care of, and don&#39;t bring the french into this. The last french person who had a back bone was that midget Napoleon. I&#39;m not American and I still don&#39;t like the french. Of course they are saying no to this war, do you know how much money they invested in the oil frields in iraq? I would say no to if I had that much money invested there.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by j2k4@18 March 2003 - 14:58
I shall henceforth cease and desist in any further effort to relieve you of your ignorance. Why don&#39;t you move from where you currently reside to Iraq? This will have the effect of raising the relative I.Q. in both places.





What&#39;s it like having your head so firmly up your arse.
Some Americans realy are the worst kind of racists

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by BullWinkle@20 March 2003 - 08:53
Personally I see the death penalty of some of the united states, (not sure which states have the death penalty since I don&#39;t live there) as the lesser of 2 evils. You have a person convicted of murder and shows no remorse is perfectly capable of killing again and in several instances has killed several times. In order to save the lives of the people who in the future may run into this guy the state will kill the individual.
Kill one person or let that man go free and kill another 10 people. Both evil but I will choose the lesser evil.



This is why life has to mean life

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Zardoz+23 March 2003 - 01:11--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 23 March 2003 - 01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@18 March 2003 - 14:58
I shall henceforth cease and desist in any further effort to relieve you of your ignorance. Why don&#39;t you move from where you currently reside to Iraq? This will have the effect of raising the relative I.Q. in both places.





What&#39;s it like having your head so firmly up your arse.
Some Americans realy are the worst kind of racists [/b][/quote]
Did you really write a book and then read it, thus self-administering an ill-advised brainwashing?

I heard that somewhere.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by j2k4+23 March 2003 - 01:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 23 March 2003 - 01:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Zardoz@23 March 2003 - 01:11
<!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@18 March 2003 - 14:58
I shall henceforth cease and desist in any further effort to relieve you of your ignorance. Why don&#39;t you move from where you currently reside to Iraq? This will have the effect of raising the relative I.Q. in both places.





What&#39;s it like having your head so firmly up your arse.
Some Americans realy are the worst kind of racists
Did you really write a book and then read it, thus self-administering an ill-advised brainwashing?

I heard that somewhere. [/b][/quote]



Didn&#39;t think for one second you wrote it.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Zardoz+23 March 2003 - 23:11--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 23 March 2003 - 23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@23 March 2003 - 01:14
Did you really write a book and then read it, thus self-administering an ill-advised brainwashing?

I heard that somewhere.



Didn&#39;t think for one second you wrote it. [/b][/quote]
I&#39;m compelled to express my bewilderment-I never said I wrote a book; I asked if you wrote THE book. Someone mentioned that you had.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by j2k4+23 March 2003 - 22:20--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 23 March 2003 - 22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Zardoz@23 March 2003 - 23:11
<!--QuoteBegin--j2k4@23 March 2003 - 01:14
Did you really write a book and then read it, thus self-administering an ill-advised brainwashing?

I heard that somewhere.



Didn&#39;t think for one second you wrote it.
I&#39;m compelled to express my bewilderment-I never said I wrote a book; I asked if you wrote THE book. Someone mentioned that you had. [/b][/quote]




What I meant was I didn&#39;t think for one second you wrote the quote.

Is it realy difficult for you to understand the simplest comment.

[Zardoz]

LOOKS LIKE I HAVE VICTORY.

I have reduced the bigots to nothing less than a tirade of abuse with no intelligent comment.
I cannot think of a better definition of success.

All these threads are one abusive comment after another
I&#39;m getting very bored with this.

I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS.

[merlin-1]

j2k4 don&#39;t waste your time with this ingnorant individual he&#39;s anti American and is not worth replying to.It&#39;s a shame that on a board like this we have to put up with someone who just wants to piss people off and start trouble.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by merlin-1@24 March 2003 - 15:45
j2k4 don&#39;t waste your time with this ingnorant individual he&#39;s anti American and is not worth replying to.It&#39;s a shame that on a board like this we have to put up with someone who just wants to piss people off and start trouble.
I know, but it&#39;s funny/sad.
Funny dictates that I respond, but it is getting old.

Have you noticed he&#39;s claiming victory on every thread with the same message verbatim? He thinks he&#39;s chasing us around.

I do genuinely wonder what causes him to seek the negative attention, tho.
Nobody is born that way.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by merlin-1@24 March 2003 - 15:45
j2k4 don&#39;t waste your time with this ingnorant individual he&#39;s anti American and is not worth replying to.
Note that one can be anti-American and not ignorant. The two are not mutally inclusive.

:ninja:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by MagicNakor+24 March 2003 - 22:53--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MagicNakor @ 24 March 2003 - 22:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--merlin-1@24 March 2003 - 15:45
j2k4 don&#39;t waste your time with this ingnorant individual he&#39;s anti American and is not worth replying to.
Note that one can be anti-American and not ignorant. The two are not mutally inclusive.

:ninja: [/b][/quote]
Have you an opinion re: our friend Zardoz?

[WebCheF]

Originally posted by Zardoz+5 March 2003 - 21:02--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 5 March 2003 - 21:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Skillian@5 March 2003 - 19:32
I think the reason most countries don&#39;t let you vote at 16 is that you are still too young to have fully formed your opinions about the world. This applies with the death penalty too. I don&#39;t think being able to vote would make it OK, I&#39;m just surprised that a country could believe that someone who is too young to express his opinion about the government is old enough to be executed.

I too think if someone in my family was murdered I would want the murderer dead, but that is why we have institutions to make the judgement without the bias caused by emotions and desires for revenge.

Quick Q: if the victim&#39;s family expressed their desire not to have the death penalty imposed, could this have an effect on the judge&#39;s ruling?



Tje judgement over a is absolute the taking of a life life in vengeance is wrong irrespective of circumstances
Murder is Murder

Help yourselves to the cop outs [/b][/quote]
Sure&#33;&#33;&#33; Let&#39;s take a 16 year old that has been in so many reform clinics to help him. Then keep on saying "oh he&#39;s just a child" that can plan, organise, and execute that murder, but it is not right.

OK, The US has laws that We make. They also have balance to appeal, reappeal, and so on. Most Americans like America because you are responsible for your actions, succes&#39;, and troubles. This is our law. As an American you have the right to make protests to change what you don&#39;t like.

By the way, the youngest to get the last mile was 13 yrs old.


Maybe we should just cut there hands off, wait, they do that in the middle east, sorry.

One better, I will post the article later, but there was a case where a man was seen speaking with a uppernoble woman, and for that the guards took his sister and they all raped her.

I will find the resource for that last statement.

[WebCheF]

Originally posted by Zardoz@24 March 2003 - 15:25
LOOKS LIKE I HAVE VICTORY.

I have reduced the bigots to nothing less than a tirade of abuse with no intelligent comment.
I cannot think of a better definition of success.

All these threads are one abusive comment after another
I&#39;m getting very bored with this.

I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS.
Quick answer, Why do you want to leave your own Country?

It seems that you are shopping for an illusion that you want to call your own. When you find your new Home, and leave your current, please post your pros and cons of your decision.

Thank in advance..

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by j2k4+25 March 2003 - 06:00--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 25 March 2003 - 06:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -MagicNakor@24 March 2003 - 22:53
<!--QuoteBegin--merlin-1@24 March 2003 - 15:45
j2k4 don&#39;t waste your time with this ingnorant individual he&#39;s anti American and is not worth replying to.
Note that one can be anti-American and not ignorant. The two are not mutally inclusive.

:ninja:
Have you an opinion re: our friend Zardoz? [/b][/quote]
Do I have an opinion on Zardoz? Not particularly. I&#39;ve seen better, I&#39;ve seen worse. ;)

:ninja: