Can The Theories Of...

[Wizard_Mon1]

I was just reading a past thread and i lead me to think about the theory of evolution and how it conflicts with many religious beliefs e.g. there was a guy doing my course a few years ago and he dropped out because the subjects were challenging his religious beliefs. In the Bible it says that god created man and many people take that literally, but is it wrong to say that he didn't create man even in light of human evolution.

I haven't really researched this subject but i think it would be very interesting to hear theories of how god fits in with what we (today) understand as creation. Will the ever be a point where science and religion overlap and the edges become blurred. Could god be an explaination for the theories of the big bang and so on, could science be used within religion to find a sound explaination for the spirit.

What are your thoughts on this subject.

[muchspl2]

science > religion

___________________________________________ end thread _____________________________________

[internet.weather]

I believe that God created the Universe and that Christ was the Messiah. I also believe that the theory of evolution is fundamentally accurate, however there is a distinct possibility that parts of it are incorrect. That is the case with most scientific theories. Ultimately parts are proven to be incorrect, whilst the whole is broadly correct.

I do not see a belief in God and a belief in evolution as being mutually exclusive. It really depends on how literally / metaphorically one takes one's holy book (whatever the religion) to be. Christ for example often spoke in parables. The point was to get a message across. That did not necessarily mean that the story was a historical record, it was a way to illustrate a point, the moral of the story. As such, much of the New Testament should not be taken literally, but the lessons contained within it learned.

[Busyman]

Well there's a couple thoughts.

I don't TOTALLY believe in evolution. If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Also if there was a BiG BanG, who put it there?

There's an interesting show called BULLSHIT!! on Showtime that is about creationism. It's a very good watch.

The people in this certain county fought to have creationism, or should I put it as Christian creationism, to be taught in school, like in biology.

One is religion, one is science. Why did these morons put it school, especially science classes?

[hobbes]

For me, I would state that my belief in a God would be limited to the creation of a set of rules (physics) and starting the ball rolling with the Big Bang or whatever.
He is not a personal God, he is not defined by a book or a Religion, he is not knowable.
Religions are mans' panacea for this often cruel thing called life. It sucks now, but if you follow these rules things are going to be just fine.

Saving the Best for last for me- Marc Cohn (http://www.oneart.com/cgi-bin/cohn/showlyrics.cgi?uid=default&view_records=1&Title=Saving+the+Best+for+Last&mh=1&from_ext=1)

So for me, evolution and God have no conflict.



I only grant the possibility of God because although Evolution is a readily observable process, it really does not do well in regard to creation.

As I said in another thread, evolution is not limited to biology and sometimes this can be helpful in explaining how unique entities can arise from a common precursor.

My example was Latin. From this parent language, there have been several major new (French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian and Spanish) languages formed. They came about from time and geographic separation. A speaker of the parent language is unable to understand the offspring and vice-versa.

This analogy can be applied the to the relationship between apes and man. We arose from something common(Latin) that preceded both apes (French) and man (Spanish). But Spanish did not come from French, if you will, for the sake of analogy.



As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.

[ilw]

Imo evolution is antithetical to the beliefs of any religion where God is said to create mankind. To believe in both is truly Orwellian.



I don't TOTALLY believe in evolution. If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Also if there was a BiG BanG, who put it there?
<_<

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by hobbes@6 March 2004 - 00:53

As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.
Clocker hasn&#39;t posted here, or are you referring to another thread ?

[NightStalker]

Originally posted by Busyman@5 March 2004 - 19:16
Also if there was a BiG BanG, who put it there?

That will never be solved, as a theory is an assumption based on limited information, whereas religion is a set of belief one holds.

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by ilw@6 March 2004 - 01:17
Imo evolution is antithetical to the beliefs of any religion where God is said to create mankind. To believe in both is truly Orwellian.



I don&#39;t TOTALLY believe in evolution. If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

Also if there was a BiG BanG, who put it there?
<_<
What does Orwellian mean ?

[clocker]

Originally posted by internet.weather+5 March 2004 - 17:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (internet.weather @ 5 March 2004 - 17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@6 March 2004 - 00:53

As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.
Clocker hasn&#39;t posted here, or are you referring to another thread ? [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t have to actually post in a thread.
You seem to drag me around to all sorts of unsavory places I normally wouldn&#39;t visit.

[lynx]

Originally posted by clocker+6 March 2004 - 00:56--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 6 March 2004 - 00:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by internet.weather@5 March 2004 - 17:36
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@6 March 2004 - 00:53

As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.
Clocker hasn&#39;t posted here, or are you referring to another thread ?
I don&#39;t have to actually post in a thread.
You seem to drag me around to all sorts of unsavory places I normally wouldn&#39;t visit. [/b][/quote]
We need to know just how hard wearing that coat is likely to be.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes@5 March 2004 - 20:53
As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.
I believe it clashes when creationism is taught in public schools.

Saying that the world was created in 6 days with God resting on the 7th is fine.

Teaching it in science class is not. <_<

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Busyman+6 March 2004 - 03:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 6 March 2004 - 03:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@5 March 2004 - 20:53
As Clocker said, evolution and creationism only conflict if you take your Religion too literally.
I believe it clashes when creationism is taught in public schools.

Saying that the world was created in 6 days with God resting on the 7th is fine.

Teaching it in science class is not. <_< [/b][/quote]
Religion has no place in schools, separation of Church and State and all that.

It is also the anti-thesis of science, as faith is defined as belief without proof. Science is about proving before belief.

[3RA1N1AC]

Originally posted by hobbes@5 March 2004 - 19:05
Religion has no place in schools
at lots of private universities, you can major in divinity... and in public ones, they do have religious studies. it&#39;s just that, at the college & university level, it&#39;s treated like a study of literature & philosophy. the stuff that&#39;s taught in philosophy departments is a mixture of religious, spiritual, and atheist thought, too. there&#39;s a huge difference between that and indoctrination, which is basically what fundamentalist types seem to want elementary schools to teach.

if my public high school had offered courses in philosophy and something along the lines of "survey of the world&#39;s religions," i prolly woulda been first in line to sign up...

[hobbes]

Originally posted by 3RA1N1AC+6 March 2004 - 08:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3RA1N1AC &#064; 6 March 2004 - 08:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@5 March 2004 - 19:05
Religion has no place in schools
at lots of private universities, you can major in divinity... and in public ones, they do have religious studies. it&#39;s just that, at the college & university level, it&#39;s treated like a study of literature & philosophy. the stuff that&#39;s taught in philosophy departments is a mixture of religious, spiritual, and atheist thought, too. there&#39;s a huge difference between that and indoctrination, which is basically what fundamentalist types seem to want elementary schools to teach.

if my public high school had offered courses in philosophy and something along the lines of "survey of the world&#39;s religions," i prolly woulda been first in line to sign up...[/b][/quote]
Introduction to religion has nothing to do with "teaching creation" or "indoctrination" and should be viewed as a nothing more than a way to expand ones horizons and perspectives.

I have no problem with learning what different religions believe in or stand for, but they should not be in competition with or even relevant to scientific studies.

It is more like a "humanities" credit, than an evangelical enticement into a faith.

[jj_frap]

The Roman Catholic Church is not good for much else, but I do like their position that the Theory of Evolution is fundamentally correct but that the social and political theories that stem from it are wrong.

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by jj_frap@6 March 2004 - 13:02
The Roman Catholic Church is not good for much else, but I do like their position that the Theory of Evolution is fundamentally correct but that the social and political theories that stem from it are wrong.
Which social and political theories stem from the theory of evolution ?

[Wizard_Mon1]

Is religion is just a set of beliefs (faith), I have read about studies that shows that a certain part of the brain is active while praying, we don&#39;t understand about 70% of what the brain does and what a human is capable of. What if aspects of religion could be explained using scientific methods e.g. Possesion. It is talked about in many of the major religions and they all have methods for dealing with possesion. Is this a phenomena that could at some point be understood by science. With the knowledge that we understand little of the universe we open ourselves up for learning alot more.

Also could religions that detail the mind to a very high degree ever be included in science as an explanation for our human condition. Could these theories benefit the entire population when disconnected with religion and seen rather as a tecnique for living a healthy and happy life.

I believe that science and religion are two sides of the same coin. One tries to understand the universe from outside in and the other from inside out, with the recognition that each can help the other a whole new field of reseach could be opened up that could be a great benefit to everyone. Sure there will be people on both sides that say no the other is crap, mine is best. Until this field of research is fully opened and investigated then no one can prove that the other is wrong or talking crap and a huge opportunity will be missed.

Edit - Wording.

[hobbes]

A part of the brain is active when we fart as well, no big deal.

Religion is a creation of fear, that simple. I imagine that with functional MRI and other methods we will find that praying is closely associated with the "fear" center.

Without fear, God is irrelevant.

"Possession" clearly is a case of fear which exceeds the persons ability to cope with it. "Exorcism" utilizes the power of "faith" to act as a placebo, to bring peace to a conflicted mind. Just like a suger pill will cure a headache, if you believe that you have just taken an aspirin.


Could these theories benefit the entire population when disconnected with religion and seen rather as a tecnique for living a healthy and happy life.

Yes, they are called "Philosophies".

[dlingeverything]

Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.

The purpose of knowing about Evolution is different from the purpose of knowing about Creation.

What the purpose is, of course, depends on your beliefs.


Proof that Evolution should not come into contact with Creation?
Scroll down to the "Creation Scientist" Part (http://objective.jesussave.us/kidz.html)

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by hobbes@6 March 2004 - 19:47

Religion is a creation of fear, that simple.&nbsp; I imagine that with functional MRI and other methods we will find that praying is closely associated with the "fear" center.

Without fear, God is irrelevant.

I admire your certainty. In my experience those of a religious persuasion have some doubt and question the validity of their beliefs. They are only human and without absolute proof they are prone to ask them-self if their belief in God is valid, and if it is are they behaving in the way God would want them to ? It all comes down to their faith in the end.

You however are unencumbered with such things and can dismiss all theistic religions, indeed all religions with so few words. How happy the religious would be if they had your depth of faith and belief in their own opinions.

I can only assume that you teach a class in philosophy. If not you should, we would not wish this clarity and certainty of belief to be lost. Pass it on, the tender of years need mentors with such certainty.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by internet.weather@7 March 2004 - 22:29

I admire your certainty. In my experience those of a religious persuasion have some doubt and question the validity of their beliefs. They are only human and without absolute proof they are prone to ask them-self if their belief in God is valid, and if it is are they behaving in the way God would want them to ? It all comes down to their faith in the end.

You however are unencumbered with such things and can dismiss all theistic religions, indeed all religions with so few words. How happy the religious would be if they had your depth of faith and belief in their own opinions.


I fail to see the need to dismiss any Religion, I was merely stating where the NEED for such a thing stems.

You question your "faith" because it is baseless. There is no way to check the validity of your faith versus the faith of others and the hundreds of different religions which are practiced. Everyone one is a believer but since there is only one God, somebody has got to be wrong, that much is certain.

As far as behaving correctly in Gods eyes, aren&#39;t you really just acknowledging what is correct in your own eyes. Is there anything in the Bible that makes no sense to you, but you do it anyway because it is God&#39;s will?

I don&#39;t believe in your God, but I still hold to the same morals you do. Why? Because we all know that morals stem from recognizing "selfish" behavior. That is all morality is.

When the big dog pushes the little dog out of the way and eats both treats, it does not recognize that it is being selfish, it is just doing what it can to survive.

You recognize that it is "self centered" behavior and you can abstractly appreciate that you may be the "little dog" so you wish to promote a philosophy that both should get 1 treat each, to be fair. This is the nidus from which all "morals" originate. You don&#39;t need a God to tell you this.

My goal is not to disrespect religion, my goal is introspection. Why do people believe what they believe and act as they do.

[internet.weather]

hobbes

An excellent post, you support your reasoning by specious argument. However you do it remarkably well. It is to your credit.

"Everyone one is a believer but since there is only one God, somebody has got to be wrong, that much is certain."

There are religions which believe in less than one God, or more than one God. You however state that there is one, with your normal degree of confidence. Even though you do not believe in God at all. Charming debating technique, to use a matter of faith you fundamentally disagree with, to support your view. I am genuinely impressed by that.

The dogs wishing to survive and overeating to do so. Are we to take it that wild animals eat their fill and then feed the children. Eating both treats is hardly doing all it can to survive. You know as well as I do that two dogs will eat from the same bowl. Particularly dogs who get fed regularly. Indeed they will leave some food and go back later.

How do you know that you hold the same morals I do ? I certainly can&#39;t say the same of you, as I am not aware of your stance on many subjects. I would also suggest that my sense of morality is based on more than an ability to recognize selfish behaviour. Being able to live within a structured society may equate to that, but that is just a set of rules we have made up as we went along. That is not morality, that is convenience and consent.

I did not mean to suggest that it was your goal to overtly dis-respect religion. You obviously disagree with it and take a lot of bother in explaining why. It really is to your credit that your posts are so readable, but don&#39;t try your Jedi mind tricks with me Laddie.

[hobbes]

Your post offers nothing that needs refuting. Whether there is one God or 42, it doesn&#39;t change a thing.

As for the dog scenario, it was just an example of of bigger concept, and you know it. It could have been the largest alligator eating the entire gazelle, while the smaller ones watched.

My posts come from pure intent. To suggest that I have an agenda and will resort to specious comparisons for the sole purpose of supporting it is rather an insult.

To use a "technique" would presume a mentality of deceit, again an insult to my posting philosophy.

I may be wrong, but I NEVER attempt to deceive.

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by hobbes@7 March 2004 - 23:01

I may be wrong, but I NEVER attempt to deceive.
That sounds like a moral standpoint. Where is the selfish element ?

My apologies btw, I am quite sure your deceit is entirely unintentional.

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by internet.weather+7 March 2004 - 23:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (internet.weather @ 7 March 2004 - 23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@7 March 2004 - 23:01

I may be wrong, but I NEVER attempt to deceive.
That sounds like a moral standpoint. Where is the selfish element ?

My apologies btw, I am quite sure your deceit is entirely unintentional.

[/b][/quote]
I just noticed, you said one God or 42, I thought your position was that there was no God. More unintentional deceit ?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by internet.weather+8 March 2004 - 00:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (internet.weather &#064; 8 March 2004 - 00:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@7 March 2004 - 23:01

I may be wrong, but I NEVER attempt to deceive.
That sounds like a moral standpoint. Where is the selfish element ?

My apologies btw, I am quite sure your deceit is entirely unintentional.[/b][/quote]
The selfish element:

I speak to you in truth so that you do the same&#33;

Like when you tell me that the lake is safe to skate on, I want to trust you. If I have lied to you, why would I think that you are not lying to me?

Not really a hard concept.

Deceit is an intentional act, BTW

As far as my comment on the number of Gods, please refer to an earlier post and realize that I have stated that I don&#39;t have faith in a particular God, but I do admit that God is a possibility.

It is hard to paddle without an oar, no?

[Biggles]

To answer the question posed by the thread, I think, yes, they can.

Clearly there are those religions (or branches within religions) which have set their faces against this approach however, there is nothing intrinsic within evolution that necessarily gainsays "the Watchmaker" argument. All it requires is a very patient God and a very long game plan. Some religions are content with such a scenario.

It sometimes strikes me that those who bring a religious bent to their anti-evolutionary arguments are a tad impatient and seem to have a need for a small universe with a short history. This perhaps says more about their emotional needs than their theology. At the end of the day what business is it of anyone if the universe is old and the Watchmaker(s) like(s) a lot of detail?

Nevertheless, equally, there is not particularly anything in evolution that supports the Watchmaker idea either. Quite why a bacterial mutation that resulted in the symbiosis of single cells, with mitochondria (the benign bacteria) allowing for cell division, occurred, is anyones&#39; guess. Chance or Created?

To me evolution is a best fit explanation for the world as we find it, fossil records, geology and earth sciences regarding atmospheric compostion through the ages. Evolution does not, to my mind either prove or disprove existence of power beyond our ken. This is, therefore, still the realm of faith - whatever we each may conceive this to be.

On seperate note, I take it Internet Weather is not Internet News on lucidity pills. :blink:

IW - Orwellian: as in George Orwell, 1984, Animal Farm, Road to Wigan Pier, etc.,

Edit: just tinkering.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+6 March 2004 - 15:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 6 March 2004 - 15:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Without fear, God is irrelevant.
[/b]
I agree somewhat.

Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of. The consequence of going to hell wouldn&#39;t be there. To avoid jail time, just plan it very well.

<!--QuoteBegin-dlingeverything
Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.

[/quote]

Evolution is not fact. It&#39;s theory. Very sound theory but nevertheless, not fact.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Busyman+8 March 2004 - 01:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman &#064; 8 March 2004 - 01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@6 March 2004 - 15:47
Without fear, God is irrelevant.

I agree somewhat.

Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of. The consequence of going to hell wouldn&#39;t be there. To avoid jail time, just plan it very well.

<!--QuoteBegin-dlingeverything
Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.



Evolution is not fact. It&#39;s theory. Very sound theory but nevertheless, not fact. [/b][/quote]
Hobbes is a little bit scared, Could I be 1 of the 5?

It is amazing that you have faith in a religion which is so much further away from proof than the theory of evolution. It is probably more a function of need than an appreciation of reality.

[ilw]

Originally posted by Busyman@7 March 2004 - 23:37
Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of.
if that were true you would be a psychopath or at the very least a sociopath, but i&#39;m certain it isn&#39;t true.

[Biggles]

Originally posted by ilw+8 March 2004 - 01:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 8 March 2004 - 01:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@7 March 2004 - 23:37
Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of.
if that were true you would be a psychopath or at the very least a sociopath, but i&#39;m certain it isn&#39;t true. [/b][/quote]
It didn&#39;t work for Torquemada though.

[Alex H]

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v90/AlexH/beginning.jpg

I just like the image... ;)

Interesting idea tho

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+7 March 2004 - 20:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 7 March 2004 - 20:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Busyman+8 March 2004 - 01:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman &#064; 8 March 2004 - 01:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@6 March 2004 - 15:47
Without fear, God is irrelevant.

I agree somewhat.

Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of. The consequence of going to hell wouldn&#39;t be there. To avoid jail time, just plan it very well.

<!--QuoteBegin-dlingeverything
Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.



Evolution is not fact. It&#39;s theory. Very sound theory but nevertheless, not fact. [/b][/quote]
Hobbes is a little bit scared, Could I be 1 of the 5?

It is amazing that you have faith in a religion which is so much further away from proof than the theory of evolution. It is probably more a function of need than an appreciation of reality. [/b][/quote]
Obviously not hobbes. Internet folks don&#39;t rile me at all.
Plus I actually like you even though I don&#39;t really know anyone here. You remind me of some of my college graduate friends that have the appearance of vast book smarts (I can only mark some college on any form). They very good conversationalists.

Regarding the other remark, faith doesn&#39;t have much to do with proof.
Ironically I&#39;m one of the most logical people I know. Thinking about the afterlife or very well that there even is one requires a "faith" otherwise there is no point in thinking about it at all. This is similar to your "god is a possibility", which really requires no more thought than that until there&#39;s "proof". I just choose to believe the antithesis.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by ilw+7 March 2004 - 21:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 7 March 2004 - 21:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@7 March 2004 - 23:37
Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of.
if that were true you would be a psychopath or at the very least a sociopath, but i&#39;m certain it isn&#39;t true. [/b][/quote]
If I was either, religion certainly wouldn&#39;t stop me.

There&#39;s something that holds us all back from doing certain things. Many people can say they always would take the moral high ground but those same are full of cow pucky.

For instance,

While playing basketball, I was snuck on the court by two fellas. While turned one hit me in the head and one hit me in the teeth (almost lost a tooth and got minor stitches). I won&#39;t go into everything but I was so hot I did look for them the next day with 9mm in hand. That&#39;s not very psychopathic to me. It&#39;s more retaliatory and that&#39;s it.

Now if I got dunked on in a game and then went and shot the guy, that&#39;s psychopathic.

[Alex H]

Originally posted by Busyman@8 March 2004 - 04:00
I was so hot I did look for them the next day with 9mm in hand. That&#39;s not very psychopathic to me. It&#39;s more retaliatory and that&#39;s it.

Now if I got dunked on in a game and then went and shot the guy, that&#39;s psychopathic.
Er, have you thought about anger management classes?

[dlingeverything]

Originally posted by Busyman+7 March 2004 - 18:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 7 March 2004 - 18:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@6 March 2004 - 15:47
Without fear, God is irrelevant.

I agree somewhat.

Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of. The consequence of going to hell wouldn&#39;t be there. To avoid jail time, just plan it very well.

<!--QuoteBegin-dlingeverything
Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.



Evolution is not fact. It&#39;s theory. Very sound theory but nevertheless, not fact. [/b][/quote]
my bad, what i meant was that Evolution is based on science, the actual, realistic, concrete and physical

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H+8 March 2004 - 00:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H @ 8 March 2004 - 00:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@8 March 2004 - 04:00
I was so hot I did look for them the next day with 9mm in hand. That&#39;s not very psychopathic to me. It&#39;s more retaliatory and that&#39;s it.

Now if I got dunked on in a game and then went and shot the guy, that&#39;s psychopathic.
Er, have you thought about anger management classes? [/b][/quote]
Like I said the moral high ground. <_<

[Busyman]

Originally posted by dlingeverything+8 March 2004 - 02:02--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (dlingeverything @ 8 March 2004 - 02:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Busyman+7 March 2004 - 18:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman &#064; 7 March 2004 - 18:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@6 March 2004 - 15:47
Without fear, God is irrelevant.

I agree somewhat.

Without God I&#39;m pretty sure I would have murdered at least 5 people that I can think of. The consequence of going to hell wouldn&#39;t be there. To avoid jail time, just plan it very well.

<!--QuoteBegin-dlingeverything
Evolution and Creation can not be combined.

They both lie in two different realms, the realm of fact and theology.



Evolution is not fact. It&#39;s theory. Very sound theory but nevertheless, not fact. [/b][/quote]
my bad, what i meant was that Evolution is based on science, the actual, realistic, concrete and physical [/b][/quote]
agreed ;)

[yonki]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@6 March 2004 - 00:36
Can The Theories Of..., Evolution and God ever be combined?
Which God?Or you meant religion?You are probably thinking of Christianism, they have already accepted the theories of evolution. So the answer would be:they are already combined,like rum and coke making an excellent cuba libre :guinesssmile: :guinesssmile: :guinesssmile:

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by hobbes@6 March 2004 - 19:47
A part of the brain is active when we fart as well, no big deal.&nbsp;

Religion is a creation of fear, that simple.&nbsp; I imagine that with functional MRI and other methods we will find that praying is closely associated with the "fear" center.

Without fear, God is irrelevant.

"Possession" clearly is a case of fear which exceeds the persons ability to cope with it. "Exorcism" utilizes the power of "faith" to act as a placebo, to bring peace to a conflicted mind.&nbsp; Just like a suger pill will cure a headache, if you believe that you have just taken an aspirin.


Could these theories benefit the entire population when disconnected with religion and seen rather as a tecnique for living a healthy and happy life.

Yes, they are called "Philosophies".
Fear is a product of misunderstanding, some religious teachers misunderstand god and proceed to teach people their misunderstanding, the result is fear. Furthermore, i don&#39;t think that people that are afraid of commiting sin are afraid of god, they are afraid of what will happen to them as a result of the sin, they are afraid of suffering. Being afraid of suffering is healthy, selfish but healthy, it can make you consious of what harm you bring to others.

That is an assumtion that other spirits don&#39;t exist. It sounds like creationists disputing evolution on the grounds that it is not as god tells it. Disputing the existence of other entities on the basis of scientific understanding, which has not fully researched the subject or proven the non-existence of spirits, is just the same.

Edit - A technique not a philosophy, religions have techniques all well as philosophies.

@yonki: I was using the term &#39;theories of God&#39; to mean (all) religion. When you say they who do you mean, not all christians i assume.

@alex h: I like the pic, it is an interesting idea and it makes sense of the phrase &#39;we are all children of god&#39;, sadly i don&#39;t think there is such an easy answer to that question. ;)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@8 March 2004 - 21:14
Fear is a product of misunderstanding, some religious teachers misunderstand god and proceed to teach people their misunderstanding, the result is fear. Furthermore, i don&#39;t think that people that are afraid of commiting sin are afraid of god, they are afraid of what will happen to them as a result of the sin, they are afraid of suffering. Being afraid of suffering is healthy, selfish but healthy, it can make you consious of what harm you bring to others.



So when I fear death, that is just a misunderstanding? Oh thank goodness.

In life, we "fear" or avoid circumstances that can cause harm. We fear falling from a tree because it will hurt. We mentally cope with this fear by not climbing trees.

If only all of our fears were so easily dodged.

Most people have this little fear called DEATH, as no one knows what awaits them. Eternal silence, re-incarnation, whatever. But we all fear death because it is something out of our control and a certainty.

Unlike the tree, we cannot mentally resolve our fear of death by avoiding it. So in order to cope, we create a God who tells us that all will be well, and we hope that if enough people agree with us then we can make it true.

Fear created the NEED for a God. Without this fear "religious teachers" would not exist because we wouldn&#39;t need religion.

Fear is not a simple matter of misunderstanding and confusion. By the way, who tells these religious teachers what is correct and what is a misunderstanding? Maybe God needs to work on his communication skills to avoid such trangressions.

"Hey, it appears Hobbes fell off a 50 story building? How is he? Well he and the ground had a little misunderstanding."

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by hobbes+9 March 2004 - 00:32--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 9 March 2004 - 00:32)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Wizard_Mon1@8 March 2004 - 21:14
Fear is a product of misunderstanding, some religious teachers misunderstand god and proceed to teach people their misunderstanding, the result is fear. Furthermore, i don&#39;t think that people that are afraid of commiting sin are afraid of god, they are afraid of what will happen to them as a result of the sin, they are afraid of suffering. Being afraid of suffering is healthy, selfish but healthy, it can make you consious of what harm you bring to others.



So when I fear death, that is just a misunderstanding? Oh thank goodness.

In life, we "fear" or avoid circumstances that can cause harm. We fear falling from a tree because it will hurt. We mentally cope with this fear by not climbing trees.

If only all of our fears were so easily dodged.

Most people have this little fear called DEATH, as no one knows what awaits them. Eternal silence, re-incarnation, whatever. But we all fear death because it is something out of our control and a certainty.

Unlike the tree, we cannot mentally resolve our fear of death by avoiding it. So in order to cope, we create a God who tells us that all will be well, and we hope that if enough people agree with us then we can make it true.

Fear created the NEED for a God. Without this fear "religious teachers" would not exist because we wouldn&#39;t need religion.

Fear is not a simple matter of misunderstanding and confusion. By the way, who tells these religious teachers what is correct and what is a misunderstanding? Maybe God needs to work on his communication skills to avoid such trangressions.

"Hey, it appears Hobbes fell off a 50 story building? How is he? Well he and the ground had a little misunderstanding." [/b][/quote]
Fear of death is misunderstanding, thinking that its a bad thing and not accepting it is what causes fear of death because if you really understood the nature of life you would not fear death. People fear death for a number of reasons but the root is mis-understanding.

Fearing of falling from a tree is a built up experience and it is similar to how phobias are built, you have a bad experience and that leads you to not wanting to do it again. This experience plays on your mind when ever you see a tree so you built up a habitual thought that tree are scarey or bad. In essence your mind is reacting due to previous experience to a thing that is no longer threatening. Due to previous experience you have developed a concept, that is not neccessarily correct (mis-understanding), that trees are dangerous. Trees in them selves are not dangerous many people climb trees and don&#39;t get hurt, so fear of them is due to personal mis-understanding produced from previous experience.

Maybe just maybe god is not this psychological support mechanism that you suggest and maybe it is this concept that different religions talk about and prey to and revere. I am not looking to convert anyone. How do you know your right, do you understand this universe better than anyone else, surely thats just ignorant arrogance. I am sorry but fear is not the creater of god or good religious teachers fear is an emotion and emotions if recognised properly are all the same by nature. To be a good religious teacher you should be the master of your emotions and recognise that fear is the product of a mis-understanding of your self and something else e.g. duality. This is a big subject that is best explained by someone who really understands it, i only have a limited amount of knowledge and experience on the subject.

If someone where to tell the religious teacher they had misunderstood then there would no longer be any mis-understanding provided the teacher acknowleged thier mistake. Maybe god doesn&#39;t need to work on his communication maybe its us that need to open our ears.

[Alex H]

I don&#39;t have a fear of death. I have no idea what happens when one dies and neither does anyone else, so without any reliable information to go on, I am going to reserve my opinion on the matter until I die.

Never have any expectations. You will constantly be surprised and never be disapointed. B)

(Thats my view on death. It does not nessecarily apply to every situation, however it is remarkably comforting when confronted with the genuinly unknown.)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@9 March 2004 - 02:15
Fear of death is misunderstanding, thinking that its a bad thing and not accepting it is what causes fear of death because if you really understood the nature of life you would not fear death. People fear death for a number of reasons but the root is mis-understanding.

I never said "death" was "bad", I said is an uncontrollable unknown.&nbsp; If I were to lock you in a car bound in rope and set you rolling down a hill towards a cliff, you would be afraid right?&nbsp; So you pretend that a loving God is actually controlling the car and will guide you safely to the bottom.&nbsp; This is your psychological defense mechanism to deal with a situation that has a known end and a situation you are unable to do anything about.

I don&#39;t create God, I just hope the cliff is only a foot high.&nbsp;

Maybe death is a "bad" thing or maybe it is a "good" thing, nobody knows.&nbsp; We fear what we do not know, that is why we are afraid, at night, when we hear those sounds coming from the cellar.

Fearing of falling from a tree is a built up experience and it is similar to how phobias are built, you have a bad experience and that leads you to not wanting to do it again. This experience plays on your mind when ever you see a tree so you built up a habitual thought that tree are scarey or bad. In essence your mind is reacting due to previous experience to a thing that is no longer threatening. Due to previous experience you have developed a concept, that is not neccessarily correct (mis-understanding), that trees are dangerous. Trees in them selves are not dangerous many people climb trees and don&#39;t get hurt, so fear of them is due to personal mis-understanding produced from previous experience.

How do you distort an abstract concept of impact velocity=initial velocity + acceleration* time to equate to a fear of trees. That is just ridiculous.&nbsp; I don&#39;t have to fall from a tree to know that hurts, I just have to understand Newtonian physics.&nbsp; Chosing not to climb a tree is a matter of risk versus benefit.&nbsp; I might want an apple, but I must recognize that a fall is possible.&nbsp; I enjoy climbing trees, I was just giving an example.&nbsp; Phobias, btw, are defined as irrational fears

Maybe just maybe god is not this psychological support mechanism that you suggest and maybe it is this concept that different religions talk about and prey to and revere. I am not looking to convert anyone. How do you know your right, do you understand this universe better than anyone else, surely thats just ignorant arrogance. I am sorry but fear is not the creater of god or good religious teachers fear is an emotion and emotions if recognised properly are all the same by nature. To be a good religious teacher you should be the master of your emotions and recognise that fear is the product of a mis-understanding of your self and something else e.g. duality.

Since most religions are based on "do what I say and you will be rewarded" and I have clearly explained how fear might drive us to create such a coping mechanism, your "maybe just maybe" probably isn&#39;t.

I&#39;m not saying I&#39;m right, I just admit to myself that there is a logical explanation for the creation of God.&nbsp; I can&#39;t believe the fairy tales that are told to me.&nbsp; I would like to, no, I would LOVE to, I just can&#39;t.


If someone where to tell the religious teacher they had misunderstood then there would no longer be any mis-understanding provided the teacher acknowleged thier mistake. Maybe god doesn&#39;t need to work on his communication maybe its us that need to open our ears.

Nice platitude.

To be honest, you sound like a young man who has or had a mentor who has strongly influenced you.&nbsp; Your knowledge is a hodge-podge of Freudian psychology and Eastern philosophy and it strikes me as a bit confused.

When the bunny rabbit stares into the teeth of the wolf, there is no "misunderstanding about death" going on, hell rabbits don&#39;t even understand the concept of death.&nbsp; But they have this thing called the sympathic nervous system that pours out norephinephrine and our mouths dry, pupils constrict, sweat glands gush and our hearts pound as we get the hell out of there. That is fear, baby..

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Alex H@9 March 2004 - 03:56
I don&#39;t have a fear of death. I have no idea what happens when one dies and neither does anyone else, so without any reliable information to go on, I am going to reserve my opinion on the matter until I die.

Never have any expectations. You will constantly be surprised and never be disapointed. B)

(Thats my view on death. It does not nessecarily apply to every situation, however it is remarkably comforting when confronted with the genuinly unknown.)
We would all go insane if we thought about death on a daily basis, so we push it to the back, after all, we are young, and watch soccer.

Let me put a gun to your head Alex, let me cock the trigger and hear you say "Do it man, this will probably be fun".

You may say, but I haven&#39;t fullfilled my goals here. So what, death deals in eternity not in a piddly few human years and pointless accomplishments.

In a million years, who will care if Alex didn&#39;t finish college, much less in a billion or trillion or zillion or try a trillion to the zillionth power. That is what we are facing in death, eternity baby, eternity.

You ready to die Alex? Why do you hesitate. Ah, the delusional immortality of the young. Come talk to me when you are 78 and experiencing a sudden chest pressure and numbness.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Stop being so darn logical hobbes, why not believe a fairy tale or two it could do you a world of good. ;)

My point was that fear is an emotional reaction to an outside stimuli and that with an understanding of the nature of emotion you are not as prone to reacting to disturbing events.

There is a zen buddhist story about an archer who aquired a student, this student under went 3 years intensive training and decided that he was the best archer there ever was, His master decided to test this theory and took him to the side of a very high cliff. He said try and hit this pice of wood that i throw out but is student couldn&#39;t even pull the arrow out of his quiver because he was shaking so much due to the height of the cliff and his proximity to the edge. His master walked to the edge chucked the piece of wood and fired three arrows into it while remaining completely calm.

So you can learn to understand emotion and not react to certain situations, Thein my point that fear is not fundamental to the existence of god because it is an emotion that if understood properly brings you closer to god.... Don&#39;t know if that makes sense, i could probably explain it better.

Sorry about the long story. :)

[lynx]

If God has been around for billions of years, won&#39;t he have evolved into something else by now? :blink:

[hobbes]

Originally posted by lynx@9 March 2004 - 22:43
If God has been around for billions of years, won&#39;t he have evolved into something else by now? :blink:
Well, guess I&#39;ve been flushed from the thicket and by an Earthling to boot. I must be losing my touch.

[internet.weather]

Originally posted by lynx@9 March 2004 - 21:43
If God has been around for billions of years, won&#39;t he have evolved into something else by now? :blink:
Only if you think that God lives within the concept of time and the human understanding of it at that. Where it runs at a constant speed and always in the same direction. Given that we now believe that to be incorrect and relative then why should we think that God lives within our limited frame of reference ? Or within any frame of reference for that matter. Just because we believe that we do ?

We are young as a species (for h). FFS we have only been writing things down for a few thousand years in any meaningful way. We have only been using verbal communication for slightly longer, in universal terms. Why do we think we have sussed it all out already ?

Your average 14 year old pretty much has the world sussed. Turns out he / she may be wrong about a few things, but they only find that out later on. No point in explaining it to them, coz they ain&#39;t listening. They have to learn it for themselves.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@9 March 2004 - 18:01
My point was that fear is an emotional reaction to an outside stimuli and that with an understanding of the nature of emotion you are not as prone to reacting to disturbing events.

Ok, when death comes, I won&#39;t over-react, in fact, I will be the face of stoicism ;) .

So you can learn to understand emotion and not react to certain situations, Thein my point that fear is not fundamental to the existence of god because it is an emotion that if understood properly brings you closer to god.... Don&#39;t know if that makes sense, i could probably explain it better.

If it is not clear, when I state that I "fear" death, I specifically mean arriving at a situation which is eternally irreversible, completely unpreventable, and an outcome that is unknowable.&nbsp; A total loss of autonomy.

I want to contrast this to "living in fear of death", which seems more relevant to your story.&nbsp; "Get busy living or get busy dying" is what Morgan Freeman said in Shawshank Redemption.&nbsp; I live my life acknowledging that death will come, but it will have to find me because I am not waiting at home for it.&nbsp; If I were some hypochondriac shut-in avoiding risk at all costs, your points would be well taken, but I would rather be skydiving.

The question is: Why does the cliff strike fear in the archer? Well nature preserves us with very specific receptors to detect danger to life and a way to react to such threats.&nbsp; To the animal, he is unaware what death means, but does everything to avoid it.&nbsp; We humans, are the only creatures that abstractly understand this concept and it creates a unique concern for us to deal with.&nbsp; This unease, which stems from complete lack of control over said eventuality is why we created God, so we can sleep at night and comfort our children when Grampa bites it.

As a bit of perspective, this attempt to gain autonomy over death has been the core of every Religion.

Early religions centered about the forces of nature, and temples and offering were made to the elements.&nbsp; Human and animal sacrifices to bring fertility, good crops, and to keep the volcano calm.&nbsp; This is how these people tried to buy some sanity in a world that functioned under rules they could not understand or control.

As we now know, killing chickens and sacrificing virgins won&#39;t make it rain, but they MADE their belief work.&nbsp; If it rained, the God was thanked, if it didn&#39;t, the Gods were not abandoned, but rather someone was sacrificed for "bad behavior" to appease the rain witholding God.

We may laugh at this, as our God concept is more abstract, but we still "fix" the game.&nbsp; A baby with cancer is pulled from death and the recovery is heralded as a "miracle from God".&nbsp; What do we tell the parents of the other 99 that are dead?&nbsp; "God fucked you, big time&#39;?. No, not all all.&nbsp; We whip out the old "God works in mysterious ways and we cannot appreciate his grander scheme.&nbsp; This&nbsp; hurts now, but God will look after you".

Don&#39;t you see it is the same game, and it is fixed to assure the "faith " in a God.&nbsp; The reason - fear- fear of death and it&#39;s uncertainty. Fear of&nbsp; something we cannot control, avoid, or even understand what it will bring..

[Wizard_Mon1]

Ok, when death comes, I won&#39;t over-react, in fact, I will be the face of stoicism&nbsp; .

It is not something that is as easily done. Developing that level of mental calmness in all situations can take a very long time to learn. I am saying it is possible but not easy.



This unease, which stems from complete lack of control over said eventuality is why we created God, so we can sleep at night and comfort our children when Grampa bites it.

This assumption that we created god is wrong in my opinion. We have created different explanations for the existance of god. Yes, i agree that one of the functions of religion is making people feel more at ease in themselves and their existence. To say that that is what god is and that god is a mental construction for only that purpose is, if you don&#39;t mind me saying it, slighely narrow minded. Seeing it in that way means you miss out all the individuals through out many ages that have experienced god in one way or another. That, i would argue, is how religions were created not mearly because there was a social need for it but because someone had a direct connection with the divine and decided that the information they learnt could benefit many people. Possibly that connection came at a time when there was a social need, it could be argued that it shows the omniscience of god.

Do you think there is nothing other than what you can see or understand?

The recognition that we, in terms of the universe, are only a very small thing that has been around for a very small time is one that brings into perspective how little we know of this universe. It also begs the question &#39;what will it take for us to understand more of this universe&#39;, here again we meet the original point of this discussion, how can the combination of religious thought or recognition work with science in order to build our understanding.

[Johnny_B]

Let&#39;s get these things straight.
Creationism and Evolution have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Creationism tries to explain how life first began, by introducing a deity, a superior being that created everything.

Evolution DOES NOT try to explain how life first began. Evolution explains how life forms have mutated and adapted throughout the years. It assumes that life, whether created by God(s) or by random natural processes, has evolved into different and diverse life forms.
Supported by all the evidence, evolution is undoubtetly a fact.

Creationism is opposed to Abiogenesis, not Evolution.
Abiogenesis is the field of science that tries to explain how life came to be on Earth, by random natural processes.

Evolution may dismiss many things written in the Bible, for example, but it does not, in any way, prove the inexistence of God.

Many religions, taking advantage of people&#39;s ignorance (like they have done so many times throughout History), have tried to discredit the fact of Evolution.
This can only be because Evolution is a threat to the validity of religious arguments and their self-proclaimed holy books.
Unlike religion, people&#39;s belief in God is not affected by admitting Evolution as a fact.

With this in mind, you should learn how to separate religion from God. You will see that one thing has nothing to do with the other.
Remember that religion and holy books were created by men, not God...

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@11 March 2004 - 18:16

This assumption that we created god is wrong in my opinion. To say that that is what god is and that god is a mental construction for only that purpose is, if you don&#39;t mind me saying it, slighely narrow minded. Seeing it in that way means you miss out all the individuals through out many ages that have experienced god in one way or another. That, i would argue, is how religions were created not mearly because there was a social need for it but because someone had a direct connection with the divine and decided that the information they learnt could benefit many people. Possibly that connection came at a time when there was a social need, it could be argued that it shows the omniscience of god.

No, it cannot be argued at all, you believe it or you don&#39;t. I could argue that God created us when drunk and completely forgot that we existed and that is why life is hard for so many. We have been forsaken.

You see "omniscience" ONLY because you chose too. I may see neglect and thus a world filled with pain and conflict. Poor leadership skills I would say. My view point is equally valid to yours, but we cannot argue this point as we just don&#39;t know.

I see the statement that God is "omniscient" as another product of our fear. It allows us to feel comfort that no how bad things appear to be getting, God is in charge, and darn it, he knows what he is doing.

I more see God in a celestial couch, observing all the "Earths" he has created and enjoying us as some type of cheap entertainment. Once we blow ourselves up, he just makes more.

You seem to be taking a preconceived idea that God is omniscient, then retrospectively making history fit your expectations.



Do you think there is nothing other than what you can see or understand?

Let me be clear. There may be a God, but since we cannot see it nor understand it, then how can be describe it. So when I say we "created" God, I mean in the setting of organized religions where we give him properties and a philospohy on how we should live.

Who is to say that Moses really got the 10 Commandments from God. Maybe he thought them up and liked them so much he decided that it was God inspired.

There are lots of people who believe they are vehicles of God and they live in the funnyfarm today. So many charismatic cult leaders out there, as well.&nbsp; Why don&#39;t we believe these people? How come it has to be found in a book thousands of years old for it to be true?&nbsp; Notice how they attract the miost desperate people, people who NEED to believe.

You know the Bible didn&#39;t drop to Earth as a signed book, it was decided on by vote from a selection of material. Those who wish to believe say that God used these men a vessels to select his "word", I say there is not way of knowing.

The recognition that we, in terms of the universe, are only a very small thing that has been around for a very small time is one that brings into perspective how little we know of this universe. It also begs the question &#39;what will it take for us to understand more of this universe&#39;,

Don&#39;t know but why create these Gods and their rules when we actually have no way to know them. Man created Gods for peace of mind.

It also begs the question &#39;what will it take for us to understand more of this universe&#39;, here again we meet the original point of this discussion, how can the combination of religious thought or recognition work with science in order to build our understanding.

Already answered this in my first post.

[Alex H]

Originally posted by hobbes+9 March 2004 - 03:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 9 March 2004 - 03:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Alex H@9 March 2004 - 03:56
I don&#39;t have a fear of death. I have no idea what happens when one dies and neither does anyone else, so without any reliable information to go on, I am going to reserve my opinion on the matter until I die.

Never have any expectations. You will constantly be surprised and never be disapointed. B)

(Thats my view on death. It does not nessecarily apply to every situation, however it is remarkably comforting when confronted with the genuinly unknown.)
We would all go insane if we thought about death on a daily basis, so we push it to the back, after all, we are young, and watch soccer.

Let me put a gun to your head Alex, let me cock the trigger and hear you say "Do it man, this will probably be fun".

You may say, but I haven&#39;t fullfilled my goals here. So what, death deals in eternity not in a piddly few human years and pointless accomplishments.

In a million years, who will care if Alex didn&#39;t finish college, much less in a billion or trillion or zillion or try a trillion to the zillionth power. That is what we are facing in death, eternity baby, eternity.

You ready to die Alex? Why do you hesitate. Ah, the delusional immortality of the young. Come talk to me when you are 78 and experiencing a sudden chest pressure and numbness. [/b][/quote]
Like you said hobbes, I am small and insignificant. Nobody would really care if I died (apart from my family and friends, and they will all be dead relitivly soon anyway), so whether I die today or 50 years from now doesn&#39;t make much difference.

I don&#39;t know about whether I&#39;m ready to die, but I&#39;m not going to be afraid of it when it comes. There are way too many factors out of my control for me to worry about trying to avoid it, so I&#39;m going to live a happy and full life until the reaper man comes and taps me on the shoulder.

What else can I do? :blink:

[hobbes]

My point was that if I put a gun to your forehead right now, you would shit yourself, quite literally, and beg for mercy. This would suggest a fear of what is/ or is not, on the other side of the bullet. That is what I meant by "fearing" death.

Living in fear of death is another matter, altogether.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by hobbes@17 March 2004 - 00:40
My point was that if I put a gun to your forehead right now, you would shit yourself, quite literally, and beg for mercy. This would suggest a fear of what is/ or is not, on the other side of the bullet. That is what I meant by "fearing" death.

Living in fear of death is another matter, altogether.
In theory yes but if you put a gun to my head and i was at peace in this world and with the next i would not fear it right?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1+17 March 2004 - 01:42--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Wizard_Mon1 &#064; 17 March 2004 - 01:42)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@17 March 2004 - 00:40
My point was that if I put a gun to your forehead right now, you would shit yourself, quite literally, and beg for mercy. This would suggest a fear of what is/ or is not, on the other side of the bullet. That is what I meant by "fearing" death.

Living in fear of death is another matter, altogether.
In theory yes but if you put a gun to my head and i was at peace in this world and with the next i would not fear it right?[/b][/quote]
Not if you have swallowed your pill of delusions and can keep it down. The God you cannot know, but created to patch your fears. I tried to swallow the pill, but my stomach keeps puking it back up.

Anyway, lots of people talk tough about being at peace, only to go to pieces when philosophy and reality meet.

Are you ready to roll the dice?

Edit: I do envy those of pure faith, really I do. In addition, I do not attempt to sway them to the world of "agnostics", becasuse then I have destroyed their world. I&#39;m pretty considerate for a Godless dude.

[J'Pol]

It is heartening to find that your agnosticism is not missionary. In spite of all of the evidence to the contrary.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Firstly it is the destruction of delusions that helps you to understand your fundamental nature, you would not fear death if you understood the true nature of existance.

Secondly, i am not saying i can do it, i am saying that is what is taught in buddhism, and many have achieved that level.

Thirdly, i did not mention god.

I consider myself as having faith, possibly not pure. That is only through experience not through what i have been taught by one book or another. Of course we have no way of knowing, but i believe that you don&#39;t give your self a chance to know without experience of some sort.

As you have mentioned in another thread, morals are morals with religion or without, so good luck to you. My only thought is that if you don&#39;t open a door you will never know what is on the other side. That sounds shit but if you can only know through experience and you dismiss it so you can&#39;t experience how can you ever know.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 March 2004 - 01:57
It is heartening to find that your agnosticism is not missionary. In spite of all of the evidence to the contrary.
You&#39;re on a discussion forum, laddy, so I assume you care to discuss such matters, particularly if you participate in such a thread.

Now, if I come knocking at your door, that is another matter. You will be heartened to know that one of my co-workers, whose wife recently died of breast cancer, is one such faith bound individual, and I didn&#39;t say word one about my views on the "god" subject to him.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@17 March 2004 - 02:01
Firstly it is the destruction of delusions that helps you to understand your fundamental nature, you would not fear death if you understood the true nature of existance.

Platitude.&nbsp; Tell me what "delusions" I have.&nbsp; I would strongly argue that I have studied the many ways that people come to grips with diffucult issues and I have dissected out the core.&nbsp; The "core" is to get enough people to echo your thoughts and this will create reality.

I am a delusion breaker, not creator.&nbsp; I am honest with myself, that is all I can be.

Secondly, i am not saying i can do it, i am saying that is what is taught in buddhism, and many have achieved that level.

Lots of people believe a lot of things, doesn&#39;t mean they are right.&nbsp; It means they just we able to "buy" into the concept.

Thirdly, i did not mention god.

Delusions don&#39;t require a God.&nbsp; Maybe you are into this re-incarnation jibberish.&nbsp; You&#39;re bad, you come back ill and unlucky.&nbsp; You are good,you get the opposite.&nbsp; Whatever?&nbsp; You only WANT to believe that, there isn&#39;t any evidence of this at all.&nbsp; None, nothing.&nbsp; And it doesn&#39;t even explain how we got here.&nbsp; And where do "new" people come from?

I consider myself as having faith, possibly not pure. That is only through experience not through what i have been taught by one book or another. Of course we have no way of knowing, but i believe that you don&#39;t give your self a chance to know without experience of some sort.

I didn&#39;t "warp" to where I am.&nbsp; I tried on many different coats before deciding on the one I have on now.&nbsp; You must understand that I WANT to believe in something, but nothing seems to capture my "belief".

As you have mentioned in another thread, morals are morals with religion or without, so good luck to you. My only thought is that if you don&#39;t open a door you will never know what is on the other side. That sounds shit but if you can only know through experience and you dismiss it so you can&#39;t experience how can you ever know.
Been there, done that.<----my platitude :lol:

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by hobbes+17 March 2004 - 02:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 17 March 2004 - 02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@17 March 2004 - 01:57
It is heartening to find that your agnosticism is not missionary. In spite of all of the evidence to the contrary.
Your on a discussion forum, laddy, so I assume you care to discuss such matters, particularly if you participate in such a thread.

Now, if I come knocking at your door, that is another matter. You will be heartened to know that one of my co-workers, whose wife recently died of breast cancer, is one such faith bound individual, and I didn&#39;t say word one about my views on the "god" subject to him.[/b][/quote]
How does being on a discussion board make any difference. Sharing of thoughts openly should not be dependent on the medium on which they are shared. As such I treat this in exactly the same way as I would if we were discussing the matter in my front parlor.

Given that we are unlikely to meet or discuss these matters in any way other than through the interweb, I feel this is only appropriate. If you disagree I am saddened, but I can live with it.

Two more things, if you don&#39;t mind. They relate to spelling and respect. The words should be

Laddie

God

If one refers to a supreme being, whether convinced of her existence or not, it seems only right to capitalize.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@17 March 2004 - 02:01
Firstly it is the destruction of delusions that helps you to understand your fundamental nature, you would not fear death if you understood the true nature of existance.

Platitude.&nbsp; Tell me what "delusions" I have.&nbsp; I would strongly argue that I have studied the many ways that people come to grips with diffucult issues and I have dissected out the core.&nbsp; The "core" is to get enough people to echo your thoughts and this will create reality.

<span style='color:red'>Delusions come from how you experience this reality, how attached you are to your body and worldly things, thousands and thousands of life times of built up perceptions of reality. Once again i am not saying that i understand this level but many people have achieved it.

I am a delusion breaker, not creator.&nbsp; I am honest with myself, that is all I can be.</span>

What is then true honesty, how do you know if your really being honest if you can&#39;t see the fundamental nature of existence? Like internet weather said in another thread we are young in this universe and understand little of it, how can you be sure what your seing is reality?

I am also not interested in delusions, i try to avaiod them at all costs.

Secondly, i am not saying i can do it, i am saying that is what is taught in buddhism, and many have achieved that level.

Lots of people believe a lot of things, doesn&#39;t mean they are right.&nbsp; It means they just we able to "buy" into the concept.

Buddhism is not something you buy in to it is a practise not just a philosophy, one where you do specific exercises to break down your delusions and understand the true nature of the mind.

Yes, lots of people practise different things, many also misunderstand what they are being taught or teaching. However there a few teachers out there who actually know what they are doing and can teach it.
&nbsp;
Thirdly, i did not mention god.
Delusions don&#39;t require a God.&nbsp; Maybe you are into this re-incarnation jibberish.&nbsp; You&#39;re bad, you come back ill and unlucky.&nbsp; You are good,you get the opposite.&nbsp; Whatever?&nbsp; You only WANT to believe that, there isn&#39;t any evidence of this at all.&nbsp; None, nothing.&nbsp; And it doesn&#39;t even explain how we got here.&nbsp; And where do "new" people come from?

Again how can you say it is jibberish with out experince? Many buddhist teachers have recounted there past lives, also children sometimes remeber large parts of their past lives. Its not about whether your good or bad its about the karma you create from your actions to others and to yourself. There are explanations as to how we got here and where do &#39;new&#39; people come from, but i will leave it up to you to find them.

I consider myself as having faith, possibly not pure. That is only through experience not through what i have been taught by one book or another. Of course we have no way of knowing, but i believe that you don&#39;t give your self a chance to know without experience of some sort.

I didn&#39;t "warp" to where I am.&nbsp; I tried on many different coats before deciding on the one I have on now.&nbsp; You must understand that I WANT to believe in something, but nothing seems to capture my "belief".

So maybe you&#39;ve tried on different coats but have you actually worn them for a day or a week to see how they really feel.

As you have mentioned in another thread, morals are morals with religion or without, so good luck to you. My only thought is that if you don&#39;t open a door you will never know what is on the other side. That sounds shit but if you can only know through experience and you dismiss it so you can&#39;t experience how can you ever know.
Been there, done that.<----my platitude :lol:

[hobbes]

In real life people are not always interested in sharing thoughts, so I don&#39;t force them down their throats.

Here, that is the purpose, to take a subject and defend our view points.

Quibbling spelling makes you seem more interested in the details than concepts, particularly since "God" has been capitalisized throughout the entire thread. Almost strikes one as being a bit dishonest. Btw, perhaps you could explain this to Wizardmon as he has done the same.


Thirdly, i did not mention god.

Let us exercise a little discipline and stay on the topic. If a word truly confuses you, I will be glad to clarify. Otherwise, correcting typos is nothing but rude.

[hobbes]

If I don&#39;t understand reality, how come Buddists do? You honestly don&#39;t even understand what you are talking about. You seem enamored of this Eastern culture gibberish. It is the same game as Western religion and in the end relies on a leap of faith. As I postulated before, you are a young vulnerable man, exploring and attempting to clutch to this "at peace" sales pitch.

As far a recounting past lives, that is just "wishful thinking". How can they prove it? I dream of many things, are they the real, no.

[Wizard_Mon1]

Vulnerable? wtf are you geting off on this. :lol: :lol:

It has nothing to do with culture.

No leaping required. Take things at your own pace and see what you can find out yourself, it is the practise not the philosophy that leads to understanding.

How do you know i haven&#39;t found some degree of peace and that is the reason i object to you dismissing it so readily.

The object is not to prove anything to you, although i think with time that these phenomena can be proven, it just needs time, which you oviously don&#39;t have or want to give to it.

Acheiving buddhahood is understanding the true nature of reality, buddhas then taught techniques to unenlightened people to help them achieve it, this info is still accessable now. Buddhism is different to other religions in that you can become buddha but you can&#39;t become God.

[hobbes]

Whatever. I just can&#39;t see how these people can understand reality better than I can. Enough brainwashing will convince anyone of anything and in the end it is still shit.

I think we have hit an impasse, talk at you later.