View Full Version : Wut Happens When We Die
Smith
03-19-2004, 02:40 AM
wut happens when we die. is their a heaven, if so wuts it like. do ppl actually go 2 hell?
wut is heaven is hell and hell is heaven . mabye someone mixed them up and were all actually praying to go to hell?
wut if when we die we come back as someone else, and have no memory of past lifes?
wut if we become someones gurdian.? :unsure:
wut do u guys think?
opinions would b nice , enlighten me :lol:
nahan
03-19-2004, 08:43 AM
When you die people will line up to take a fat steamy dump on your grave.
Have a nice day :)
hooked
03-19-2004, 11:30 AM
when you die you get cremated or buried :P
Smith
03-19-2004, 05:39 PM
sigh.
i ment wut happens after you die> spiritually.
were does your soul go? heaven or hell or wut i said before.
wut are your theories?
"They" say it doesn't hurt a bit.
ashutosh_cool16
03-19-2004, 08:02 PM
I also think about this many times... I don't think that souls exist. There's no such thing as souls or ghosts, according to me. Acc. to me, when a child is born... its just a evolution process... its not as if someone's soul comes into the child. Its just that.... a child is born, he/she becomes big, his/her brain develops and then dies when he/she becomes old. This is just Life.... nothin else.. no hell or heaven.
Still I dont understand one thing...
Can we be reborn in the form of some other child? (offcourse.. there is no relation between this and our earlier life form)
I dont give a shit abt that.. since i m enjoying my life! Will think about it when i get old.. lol
4play
03-19-2004, 08:04 PM
if your good you go to heaven
if your bad to get sent to the lounge forever :helpsmile:
Originally posted by Zedaxax@19 March 2004 - 12:40
"They" say it doesn't hurt a bit.
hahahaa....
Can we be reborn in the form of some other child? (offcourse.. there is no relation between this and our earlier life form)
^thats actually what i think...
Biggles
03-22-2004, 12:22 AM
Well all your atoms get recycled, you can become parts of trees, the atmosphere and of course other living creatures including other humans. Nothing goes to waste as atoms are all but indestuctible. Even if you are cremated all that happens is that most of the atoms are released into the atmosphere. Your atoms have been many things before and will be many things again.
As to whether the conscious being that is currently you goes on to inhabit other earthly existences or flys off elsewhere is a case of "you takes your choice". I don't think anyone can give anything more than an indication of their own preferred explanation.
CoolMac
03-22-2004, 12:24 AM
i believe that when everyone dies,we all go to a place like heaven,only that there there's no greed,anger or anything like that.I mean look at all the religions,they all have something real bad.
Life is only one,you gotta live it,try to enjoy every moment of your existence...
it'd be nice to think that it goes off and floats somewhere. but i doubt it.
perhaps somebody could develop a computer to track your brain's electric currents and duplicate them in the exact way to replicate your brain, and then upload your brains memories into the computer and live forever. :w00t:
toco004
03-22-2004, 04:29 AM
people cry & miss you :(
Originally posted by CoolMac@22 March 2004 - 00:24
i believe that when everyone dies,we all go to a place like heaven,only that there there's no greed,anger or anything like that.I mean look at all the religions,they all have something real bad.
Life is only one,you gotta live it,try to enjoy every moment of your existence...
ohh, only you made sense so far.
and I'm going to tell you something interesting.
I've posted a thread about buddhism here before, but I didn't really know much about it, I've been learning Buddhism for about half a month now, I've learned at least the basic things of buddhism. buddhism is generally misconceived to be a blind faith like the other religions, but it's completely different than the other religons , one distintict difference is there is no god in buddhism. unlike other religions, buddhism doens't tell people to worship god or anything, buddha tells everyone to question buddhism before they actually learn it or believe it. this difference means buddhism is trying to help people to find the truth about everything, other religions are only telling you to have faith in something or you will be regret. which religion will you choose, you wanna know the truth or just wanna believe in something?
buddhism is not really a religion coz you don't have to go to church or temple, you can just read sutra like reading others science books, I found there is nothing wrong(at least the part related to science) in buddhism, the only thing you need is your intellegence to understand it, coz many things you cannot understand by using normal human thinking(includes genius'), buddha says there is no wisdom in human being, he doesn't mean human cannot think, but just most human cannot escape habitual thinking state, for example, I've mentioned the smallest particle is nothing, how can you imagine nothing consititute everything in this world?it's the emptiness buddha's talking about and it's the wisdom buddha talking about.if you are not fully enlighted, you will never understand it.
buddhas doesn't call themselves spirit or soul they called themselve a state of mind which is enlighted or awaken. It's kinda like spirit or soul. when humans are proud of their intelligence comparing to animal, but aren't they missing something? it's who creates you? if you don't know this, why you are ignoring the truth? in other words, human beings were created by nature or human beings naturally exist and the science is created by human, who's smarter, nature or human? probably human can learn some truths by science in the next million years, but why don't we learn the nature directly? and now you don't have to discover it by yourself, buddhism can guide you.
most of the human live like an animal, they born, live and die and never know the truth of nature. human being cannot see all the six realms in this universe(not only the universe we can see): Hell, Hungry Ghost, Animal, Asuras, Human, Deva(heaven). All spirits are circling aroud these realms, killer,murderer and cruel people will go to hell after they die, great people will go to Deva,in hell, spirit will only suffer(billions years of dying in hot oil or cold ice all kinds of cruel death penalties again and again), in Deva, spirits only enjoy life, they can get anything they want and they can live very long but finally they will die; people think like animal will become animal in their next life, people who are greed and never satifsfied in this life will become hungry ghost in their next life everything(intentions,actions) human done will transfer those karma to their spirits, it's karma.There are 8 senses in a human, five senses are carried by the human body, three other senses are carried by the spirit(one sense I know is similar to your attitute to some certain things, like sugar is sweet, it can be regonized by taste sense of human body, but someone like sweet while other hate sweet, this is caused by the six sense hiding in a spirit). after human die, they lose five senses, but the three senses still remain in the spirit,and karma is transfered to the spirit(some were offseted in this human life, but generally a murderer's karma cannot be offseted even the murderer do good later, and the murder will go to hell directly, no one to decide who go where, it's all happenning naturally).
of these six realms, human are the most intelligent and only human have the potential to quit the circle of six realms(also called circle of suffering coz
everything in this circle will die and suffer in their lives, even devas, they finally die and go to other realms. Spirits can become buddhas because they've accumulated enough good karma(so they can posses or reborn a intelligent human) and the opportunities to learn buddhism, buddhas were coming from the human bodies.Buddha's purpose is to help every spirit to escape from the circle. but the chance of becoming a human is rare and not many human learn buddhism or the nature, it seems like it will take forever to save all the spirits.
Adster
03-22-2004, 08:11 AM
everything Will go black
ashutosh_cool16
03-22-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by caza+22 March 2004 - 05:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (caza @ 22 March 2004 - 05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CoolMac@22 March 2004 - 00:24
i believe that when everyone dies,we all go to a place like heaven,only that there there's no greed,anger or anything like that.I mean look at all the religions,they all have something real bad.
Life is only one,you gotta live it,try to enjoy every moment of your existence...
ohh, only you made sense so far.
and I'm going to tell you something interesting.
I've posted a thread about buddhism here before, but I didn't really know much about it, I've been learning Buddhism for about half a month now, I've learned at least the basic things of buddhism. buddhism is generally misconceived to be a blind faith like the other religions, but it's completely different than the other religons , one distintict difference is there is no god in buddhism. unlike other religions, buddhism doens't tell people to worship god or anything, buddha tells everyone to question buddhism before they actually learn it or believe it. this difference means buddhism is trying to help people to find the truth about everything, other religions are only telling you to have faith in something or you will be regret. which religion will you choose, you wanna know the truth or just wanna believe in something?
buddhism is not really a religion coz you don't have to go to church or temple, you can just read sutra like reading others science books, I found there is nothing wrong(at least the part related to science) in buddhism, the only thing you need is your intellegence to understand it, coz many things you cannot understand by using normal human thinking(includes genius'), buddha says there is no wisdom in human being, he doesn't mean human cannot think, but just most human cannot escape habitual thinking state, for example, I've mentioned the smallest particle is nothing, how can you imagine nothing consititute everything in this world?it's the emptiness buddha's talking about and it's the wisdom buddha talking about.if you are not fully enlighted, you will never understand it.
buddhas doesn't call themselves spirit or soul they called themselve a state of mind which is enlighted or awaken. It's kinda like spirit or soul. when humans are proud of their intelligence comparing to animal, but aren't they missing something? it's who creates you? if you don't know this, why you are ignoring the truth? in other words, human beings were created by nature or human beings naturally exist and the science is created by human, who's smarter, nature or human? probably human can learn some truths by science in the next million years, but why don't we learn the nature directly? and now you don't have to discover it by yourself, buddhism can guide you.
most of the human live like an animal, they born, live and die and never know the truth of nature. human being cannot see all the six realms in this universe(not only the universe we can see): Hell, Hungry Ghost, Animal, Asuras, Human, Deva(heaven). All spirits are circling aroud these realms, killer,murderer and cruel people will go to hell after they die, great people will go to Deva,in hell, spirit will only suffer(billions years of dying in hot oil or cold ice all kinds of cruel death penalties again and again), in Deva, spirits only enjoy life, they can get anything they want and they can live very long but finally they will die; people think like animal will become animal in their next life, people who are greed and never satifsfied in this life will become hungry ghost in their next life everything(intentions,actions) human done will transfer those karma to their spirits, it's karma.There are 8 senses in a human, five senses are carried by the human body, three other senses are carried by the spirit(one sense I know is similar to your attitute to some certain things, like sugar is sweet, it can be regonized by taste sense of human body, but someone like sweet while other hate sweet, this is caused by the six sense hiding in a spirit). after human die, they lose five senses, but the three senses still remain in the spirit,and karma is transfered to the spirit(some were offseted in this human life, but generally a murderer's karma cannot be offseted even the murderer do good later, and the murder will go to hell directly, no one to decide who go where, it's all happenning naturally).
of these six realms, human are the most intelligent and only human have the potential to quit the circle of six realms(also called circle of suffering coz
everything in this circle will die and suffer in their lives, even devas, they finally die and go to other realms. Spirits can become buddhas because they've accumulated enough good karma(so they can posses or reborn a intelligent human) and the opportunities to learn buddhism, buddhas were coming from the human bodies.Buddha's purpose is to help every spirit to escape from the circle. but the chance of becoming a human is rare and not many human learn buddhism or the nature, it seems like it will take forever to save all the spirits. [/b][/quote]
:sleep1:
TRshady
03-22-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by caza+22 March 2004 - 05:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (caza @ 22 March 2004 - 05:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CoolMac@22 March 2004 - 00:24
i believe that when everyone dies,we all go to a place like heaven,only that there there's no greed,anger or anything like that.I mean look at all the religions,they all have something real bad.
Life is only one,you gotta live it,try to enjoy every moment of your existence...
ohh, only you made sense so far.
and I'm going to tell you something interesting.
I've posted a thread about buddhism here before, but I didn't really know much about it, I've been learning Buddhism for about half a month now, I've learned at least the basic things of buddhism. buddhism is generally misconceived to be a blind faith like the other religions, but it's completely different than the other religons , one distintict difference is there is no god in buddhism. unlike other religions, buddhism doens't tell people to worship god or anything, buddha tells everyone to question buddhism before they actually learn it or believe it. this difference means buddhism is trying to help people to find the truth about everything, other religions are only telling you to have faith in something or you will be regret. which religion will you choose, you wanna know the truth or just wanna believe in something?
buddhism is not really a religion coz you don't have to go to church or temple, you can just read sutra like reading others science books, I found there is nothing wrong(at least the part related to science) in buddhism, the only thing you need is your intellegence to understand it, coz many things you cannot understand by using normal human thinking(includes genius'), buddha says there is no wisdom in human being, he doesn't mean human cannot think, but just most human cannot escape habitual thinking state, for example, I've mentioned the smallest particle is nothing, how can you imagine nothing consititute everything in this world?it's the emptiness buddha's talking about and it's the wisdom buddha talking about.if you are not fully enlighted, you will never understand it.
buddhas doesn't call themselves spirit or soul they called themselve a state of mind which is enlighted or awaken. It's kinda like spirit or soul. when humans are proud of their intelligence comparing to animal, but aren't they missing something? it's who creates you? if you don't know this, why you are ignoring the truth? in other words, human beings were created by nature or human beings naturally exist and the science is created by human, who's smarter, nature or human? probably human can learn some truths by science in the next million years, but why don't we learn the nature directly? and now you don't have to discover it by yourself, buddhism can guide you.
most of the human live like an animal, they born, live and die and never know the truth of nature. human being cannot see all the six realms in this universe(not only the universe we can see): Hell, Hungry Ghost, Animal, Asuras, Human, Deva(heaven). All spirits are circling aroud these realms, killer,murderer and cruel people will go to hell after they die, great people will go to Deva,in hell, spirit will only suffer(billions years of dying in hot oil or cold ice all kinds of cruel death penalties again and again), in Deva, spirits only enjoy life, they can get anything they want and they can live very long but finally they will die; people think like animal will become animal in their next life, people who are greed and never satifsfied in this life will become hungry ghost in their next life everything(intentions,actions) human done will transfer those karma to their spirits, it's karma.There are 8 senses in a human, five senses are carried by the human body, three other senses are carried by the spirit(one sense I know is similar to your attitute to some certain things, like sugar is sweet, it can be regonized by taste sense of human body, but someone like sweet while other hate sweet, this is caused by the six sense hiding in a spirit). after human die, they lose five senses, but the three senses still remain in the spirit,and karma is transfered to the spirit(some were offseted in this human life, but generally a murderer's karma cannot be offseted even the murderer do good later, and the murder will go to hell directly, no one to decide who go where, it's all happenning naturally).
of these six realms, human are the most intelligent and only human have the potential to quit the circle of six realms(also called circle of suffering coz
everything in this circle will die and suffer in their lives, even devas, they finally die and go to other realms. Spirits can become buddhas because they've accumulated enough good karma(so they can posses or reborn a intelligent human) and the opportunities to learn buddhism, buddhas were coming from the human bodies.Buddha's purpose is to help every spirit to escape from the circle. but the chance of becoming a human is rare and not many human learn buddhism or the nature, it seems like it will take forever to save all the spirits. [/b][/quote]
Care to sum it up in a sentence? :unsure:
sure,
1. buddhism answer the question
2. the answer is the six realms(search google:six realms,buddhism)
3. human bodies are the carrier of the spirits,there are 8 senses in every human once human die, lose five sense, three other senses remain in spirit, spirit is a carrier of cause and effect,everything you done(intentions,actions) in this life will transfer to the spirit, and change the structure of spirit.
4. all spirits in six realms suffer.
5. human suffer coz human born, live, die.
6. why do we believe it? coz why don't we believe it? nature can create you,it can create everything(something you cannot see), it does whatever it wants, buddhism is the study of the nature, from direct view. sicence is like step by step super slowly to discover some part of the nature, and something you cannot understand by normal human thinking unless enlighted.
brenda
03-22-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by caza@22 March 2004 - 18:32
sure,
1. buddhism answer the question
2. the answer is the six realms(search google:six realms,buddhism)
3. human bodies are the carrier of the spirits,there are 8 senses in every human once human die, lose five sense, three other senses remain in spirit, spirit is a carrier of cause and effect,everything you done(intentions,actions) in this life will transfer to the spirit, and change the structure of spirit.
4. all spirits in six realms suffer.
5. human suffer coz human born, live, die.
6. why do we believe it? coz why don't we believe it? nature can create you,it can create everything(something you cannot see), it does whatever it wants, buddhism is the study of the nature, from direct view. sicence is like step by step super slowly to discover some part of the nature, and something you cannot understand by normal human thinking unless enlighted.
i met Tibetan Buddhist monks in India and they were the most down-to-earth, happiest, placid and beautiful people I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
Buddhim could be the answer to the worlds problems if only we could take the time to contemplate it
seiya_33
03-23-2004, 02:08 AM
i think we should choose someone from the board , sacrafice him , and he should try as hell to comunicate to us from wherever he ended up , :lol:
no but really this has always kept me busy , what really happens when we die , i cant go by any religion since i dont believe in any , i just hope a hell doesnt exist cuz ive done some bad stuff in my life , nothing im proud of , i would really like to be reincarnated into some animal , or like in the movie where you die and they see what you did with your life and then they decide if they give you another body , it was a comedy but cant remmeber its name , well anyways when someone figures something out call me.
all those would be cool but dont think it works like that.
imported_GS1969
03-23-2004, 04:41 PM
I studied Buddhism briefly as well and it's about 1/2 right. If you read the dudes post about Buddhism the first part is cool. We are all one. Dont' hurt anything because you are just hurting yourself. Be nice to everyone. That's cool stuff, but then comes the hokey crap; spirits, hungry ghosts, reencarnation, all that typical sliding back into the opiate of the masses stuff.
The Buddha was this real guy who lived in India about 500 BC or so, and he came up with all this cool stuff, these great ideas about not fucking over other people, but then he does this backslide into the typical, jissy spirit world, ooh, ghosts and spirits. What a load of crap that totally puts his philosophy into the cheese category, and believe me, I'm including all the major religions with a "god" in this cheese category as well.
Why the dude couldn't just stop with the "be nice" is beyond me.
Confucius was kind of the same as is Daoism, and hell, Christianity for that matter. They all have great philosophies, but then they go to far and say stuff like "Oh and by the way, I talked with God the other day and so I know what's right, that'll be $29.95, pay at the door."
G
BKK
evildon
03-24-2004, 12:45 AM
Biggles (?) is closest to my view...
Originally posted by GS1969@23 March 2004 - 16:41
I studied Buddhism briefly as well and it's about 1/2 right. If you read the dudes post about Buddhism the first part is cool. We are all one. Dont' hurt anything because you are just hurting yourself. Be nice to everyone. That's cool stuff, but then comes the hokey crap; spirits, hungry ghosts, reencarnation, all that typical sliding back into the opiate of the masses stuff.
The Buddha was this real guy who lived in India about 500 BC or so, and he came up with all this cool stuff, these great ideas about not fucking over other people, but then he does this backslide into the typical, jissy spirit world, ooh, ghosts and spirits. What a load of crap that totally puts his philosophy into the cheese category, and believe me, I'm including all the major religions with a "god" in this cheese category as well.
Why the dude couldn't just stop with the "be nice" is beyond me.
Confucius was kind of the same as is Daoism, and hell, Christianity for that matter. They all have great philosophies, but then they go to far and say stuff like "Oh and by the way, I talked with God the other day and so I know what's right, that'll be $29.95, pay at the door."
G
BKK
well, then prove it wrong, I really don't know what to say coz I am still a beginner.
you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself, why should I believe you? and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact.
Originally posted by caza+24 March 2004 - 00:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (caza @ 24 March 2004 - 00:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-GS1969@23 March 2004 - 16:41
I studied Buddhism briefly as well and it's about 1/2 right. If you read the dudes post about Buddhism the first part is cool. We are all one. Dont' hurt anything because you are just hurting yourself. Be nice to everyone. That's cool stuff, but then comes the hokey crap; spirits, hungry ghosts, reencarnation, all that typical sliding back into the opiate of the masses stuff.
The Buddha was this real guy who lived in India about 500 BC or so, and he came up with all this cool stuff, these great ideas about not fucking over other people, but then he does this backslide into the typical, jissy spirit world, ooh, ghosts and spirits. What a load of crap that totally puts his philosophy into the cheese category, and believe me, I'm including all the major religions with a "god" in this cheese category as well.
Why the dude couldn't just stop with the "be nice" is beyond me.
Confucius was kind of the same as is Daoism, and hell, Christianity for that matter. They all have great philosophies, but then they go to far and say stuff like "Oh and by the way, I talked with God the other day and so I know what's right, that'll be $29.95, pay at the door."
G
BKK
well, then prove it wrong, I really don't know what to say coz I am still a beginner.
you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself, why should I believe you? and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. [/b][/quote]
and I guess you misunderstand the concept, the ghost world is not the world you learn from other religions or TV, it is just a state of mind which you feel suffering.
if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name,human is nothing(it's why buddha told us not to insist on "self" or "ego"). the same is for particle. Buddha found this more than two thousands ago before science even created. This is just the most basic knowlegde in sutra.
If there is God, then who create god? in buddhism, everything is empty, everything is impermaent (scientist discovered this only in recent time), then what is God? nothing.
here is my little thought:
Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.
hobbes
03-24-2004, 01:47 AM
I agree with GS1969, it is just a different packaging of the same bullshit.
The burden of proof lies upon the person proclaiming that Buddism is the right choice, not the person questioning it.
It believe that pink ponies in the sky guide us and we must meditate upon this to achieve true enlightment. Prove to me I'm wrong.
Buddism is like the "earth grain cereal" of spiritual thought, it is the fad of the pseudo-intellectual. Everyone seems drawn to the this unknown, this deep Eastern philosophy. They reject the superficiality of the Western culture and search for their deep emotions, blah, blah blah.
What total crap. Go ahead, get brain washed, everyone who needs a pain pill to ease their fear of death does this in one way or another.
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 03:37 AM
I know two novices arguing about Buddhism may not lead to enlightenment. I’m sure both of us have gaping holes in our understanding, but at least we can look critically at what each other has to say and we’ll sort of muddle through from there. Let’s see….
~~~ well, then prove it wrong~~~
Well I think Hobbes is right there, it’s not up to me to disprove your heaven and hell and your other six realms, your hungry ghosts and your devas. I can dig your humans an animals but the other stuff you talk about is unproven. It is not correct to ask me to disprove something that you have no proof of in the first place.
~~~ you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself~~~
The only thing I have asked people to believe is be good to other people. You’re right, I can’t prove that being good is right, you know why? because there is no ‘greater truth’. There is no god or spirit force or nature laying down the spiritual law for us. This is terrifying for people. If there is nothing to fear after you die then why should you do anything in life that isn’t for simple self gratification? If I think you have a nice car why don’t I just take it? If I like the looks of a girl, why don’t I smack her over the head with a club and drag her into the bushes and have sex with her? If I don’t like you, why can’t I kill you? Why? For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right. Not because I will be judged after I die either by your “natural” force that, I’m sorry is the same as God. You may not say it, but something judges you right? Sends you to heaven or hell? You conveniently call it nature, but no, it’s not natural. Nature doesn’t care who the hell you kill, or rob, or rape. I don’t do it because it’s not nice, and I don’t do lesser things because I am afraid of Johnny Law.
~~~ and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. ~~~
I know there is no god in Buddhism. But you know what? People still pray to the Buddha. The have deified a man. Hmm, sort of like the Christians have done. So what is the difference between praying to this skinny dude on a cross, or a contemplative dude sitting cross-legged on a pedestal? They both personify a philosophy no? They both represent a greater truth no? They are both prayed to? Hell, Buddhists even give offerings to Buddha everyday, like cans of pop, open, complete with straws, apparently Buddha prefers Red Fanta (I live in Thailand BTW, BKK is Bangkok if anyone didn’t know). Buddhists say there is no god but they still pray to a “spirit world” therefore their distinction between god and not god is invalid. Be a Buddhist in philosophy but do not pray to Buddha, because then you are admitting he is a god.
~~~ if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name~~~
Sorry dude, gotta call bullshit on this one. If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake? If you get a haircut, is not what you have remaining still called hair? If you step on a landmine and loose your legs, are you still not human?
These Socratic arguments are simple crap. People call things, things. There is no definition written by the hand of god or the hand of nature saying “This is man”, “This is computer”. Thaye are simple conventions used by people to help communicate. Which touches upon another great point of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity and whatever else; that language cannot desribe adequately the spirit world. There are no words for it. It is beyond human comprehension. When one does catch a glimpse of it, that is enlightenment, and that is hokey. Let’s spend our lives meditating to understand something that we cannot desribe, because it’s not real. This is just a cop out for the leaders of their respective philosophies. "There is something else out there that we cannot begin to understand", not.
~~~ Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.~~~
“obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone”? Why the hell not? There is nothing obvious about this at all. Yes there is an effect, the dude he killed is dead, and all of the ramifications that go along with that, but as far as some mojo booga booga effect in the afterlife for our murderer, sorry, ashes to ashes dust to dust, our boy and his killer end up in the same dust bin, destined to be recycled back into the universe, uhbadee uhbadee uhbadee that’s all folks. Don’t try to scare me with your afterlife, convince me to live by the rules of this plane, either by raising me correctly with a strong sense of right and wrong or a healthy fear of retribution by the Johnny Law or Clint Eastwood.
Once again, simply do not do anything to cause suffering to others. Save the spirits for Ghostbusters.
I know what I write sometimes sounds angry and confrontational, I'm sorry for that, it's not meant to be, I'm actually have a very good time.
G
BKK
hobbes
03-24-2004, 03:57 AM
GS,
Sometimes we sound angry and confrontational because we are frustrated, not because we are mean people.
My goal is to find something I can believe in, and when I reject a religion or philosophy, it is not out of spite, but out of a disappointment that "this one" didn't pan out either.
Our goal is to be honest with ourselves and when we are asked to swallow the panecea of faith we regurgitate this, whether it is about a God or a false philosophy.
We are all looking for something to believe in, something that will swaddle us in warmth and peace. Such things cannot be bought or desired, but must come from careful consideration of what we know and not from some blind jump into faith.
We do become a bit surly when children spouting poorly understood gibberish tell us what is right and what we should believe.
We want to believe in something, but you have to give us a convincing reason why. Faith centered ideologies are a dime a dozen.
Originally posted by hobbes@24 March 2004 - 01:47
I agree with GS1969, it is just a different packaging of the same bullshit.
The burden of proof lies upon the person proclaiming that Buddism is the right choice, not the person questioning it.
It believe that pink ponies in the sky guide us and we must meditate upon this to achieve true enlightment. Prove to me I'm wrong.
Buddism is like the "earth grain cereal" of spiritual thought, it is the fad of the pseudo-intellectual. Everyone seems drawn to the this unknown, this deep Eastern philosophy. They reject the superficiality of the Western culture and search for their deep emotions, blah, blah blah.
What total crap. Go ahead, get brain washed, everyone who needs a pain pill to ease their fear of death does this in one way or another.
No one's proclaiming buddhism is the right choice here, only the choice lies upon a person, it's your right to believe in something or nothing. and what are you questioning? you've denied it with an attitude Buddhism is another packaging before you looked at it. Buddhism tells you to question about everything even itself before you study it, what other religions tell you to question themselves?coz they are afraid to be proved wrong. if you find Buddhism wrong, then prove it, you find it unbelievable coz it seems to be unprovable.
I'm just saying Buddhism is helpful for getting the answer of some questions almost everyone've thought about but couldn't answer by themselves or science and not telling you to go to church or temple or meditate (also, I have to mention mediation is not "pink ponies in sky", the main purpose of mediation is for strengthening your control on your mind, for example, you had an assignment due tomorrow, but you couldn't control your mind and went to play video game or party).
so what's wrong with it? is it so important to care if it's deep eastern or western philosophy or whatever you call if you can find the answer? and buddhism is not just about philosophy. Buddhism was created more than two thousands ago, the western culture was not superior at the time, why they wanted to reject the western culture? I guess we just have different styles.
why someone died in a car accident but not you? what if the person went out 10 mintues late, do you think the person wouldn't die in another accident? why there are so many people die of hunger but not you?
go ahead, explain it with scientific method.
now you are waiting answer from scientist, aren't you? you probably won't get the answer in your whole lifetime, if rebirth is true, you probably wait another million or billion years to be reborned as a human again. Probably there will be no human.
hmm, seems it is getting interesting here. It will take a lot of time to answer. but please pay attention this is discussion not argument before I squeeze time to talk to you.
another thing, I think we should not discriminate any religion first otherwise, there is no point to discuss.
and also I admit I'm a novice, the things I cannot explain does not mean they are wrong, the purpose is to find the truth not competition coz there is no reward. thanks.
hobbes
03-24-2004, 04:14 AM
You explain "bad luck" as penance for improper acts in a former life. How absolutely simple and equally unproven.
Care to make up any more fairy tales.
If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life. Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A 12 year old could come up with something better than this.
Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world. I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse.
Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y".
What does "there will be no human" mean? As long as an entity is aware of itself as an individual, who cares what it is called. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master.
I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy. This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls". Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really.
As far as your edit, all of us are searching for "the truth" and we have dismissed your thought upon reflection of their merits, not in an effort to be mean.
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 05:00 AM
Well, nothing really new has been said this time.
Hobbes is right about the holy grail of ancient wisdom. The other big Eastern philosophies of Confucianism and Taoism are pretty much based on this. Confucius had great things to say, fabulous things, but he totally copped out by saying they were all from the ancients texts, therefore he didn’t have to defend any of what he said, he just said crap like the ancients say it’s so, therefore that’s the way it is. Good stuff but pretty weak.
Chuang Tzu was sort of the same, he was the big Taoist guy that said the stuff like in ancient times Blah Blah could do blah blah like ride the winds with thought, if only we could have his knowledge we could ride the winds too. That’s what a lot of the Asian Taoists are doing today in meditation, trying to recapture some of the ancient wisdom so they can become gods. There is this old guy that lives in China and that is his specif goal, to become a god and be prayed to, totally selfish, it’s dumbasses like that who spend their whole lives studying a philosophy only to gain the secret power that they themselves can wield over others. Watching National Geographic or whoever interviewing this guy was just sad, what a jack ass.
Caza, what do you mean by “I think we should not discriminate any religion first otherwise, there is no point to discuss.” I’m totally cool that English isn’t your first language and but I just don’t know what you mean exactly. Are you trying to say “don’t speak disparagingly of religion”? I’m not sure, and why not?
Here is my philosophy, Let’s call it Gregism, well, gimme a break, I’ll come up with something better later. Do not do anything to cause suffering to anyone. Why not? Do not be afraid of the afterlife. Do not be afraid of Hell. Do not be afraid of vengeful spirits. Do not think that you will be rewarded with a ticket to heaven. Do not think that by killing an enemy you will be rewarded with 73 virgins in the afterlife ( that’s got to be the best yet, what a bunch of losers). Do not wait for a rebirth into anything, lights out, time to go to bed. Just stand on your own two feet and be a good person for fucks sake! Everyone knows what’s right and what’s wrong. Religions were made for shits like George W Bush who are willing to sacrifice his own people to make a dollar.
Aw hell, now I’m getting political, sorry about that,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Once Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Tzu. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Tzu who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu. Between Chuang Tzu and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doens't mean anything but damn it's cool.
G
BKK
to hobbes:
so now you are blaming me, huh? ok, it's my fault, you are proving me wrong but you still don't have the answer, do you? it's not me who make you not believe in buddhism but yourself. so why not give it a chance?
why don't you read this introduction of buddhism instead of blaming me?
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/introdu...to_buddhism.htm (http://www.buddhistinformation.com/introduction_to_buddhism.htm)
I hope you can question them.
http://www.buddhanet.net/
Originally posted by GS1969@24 March 2004 - 05:00
Well, nothing really new has been said this time.
Hobbes is right about the holy grail of ancient wisdom. The other big Eastern philosophies of Confucianism and Taoism are pretty much based on this. Confucius had great things to say, fabulous things, but he totally copped out by saying they were all from the ancients texts, therefore he didn’t have to defend any of what he said, he just said crap like the ancients say it’s so, therefore that’s the way it is. Good stuff but pretty weak.
Chuang Tzu was sort of the same, he was the big Taoist guy that said the stuff like in ancient times Blah Blah could do blah blah like ride the winds with thought, if only we could have his knowledge we could ride the winds too. That’s what a lot of the Asian Taoists are doing today in meditation, trying to recapture some of the ancient wisdom so they can become gods. There is this old guy that lives in China and that is his specif goal, to become a god and be prayed to, totally selfish, it’s dumbasses like that who spend their whole lives studying a philosophy only to gain the secret power that they themselves can wield over others. Watching National Geographic or whoever interviewing this guy was just sad, what a jack ass.
Caza, what do you mean by “I think we should not discriminate any religion first otherwise, there is no point to discuss.” I’m totally cool that English isn’t your first language and but I just don’t know what you mean exactly. Are you trying to say “don’t speak disparagingly of religion”? I’m not sure, and why not?
Here is my philosophy, Let’s call it Gregism, well, gimme a break, I’ll come up with something better later. Do not do anything to cause suffering to anyone. Why not? Do not be afraid of the afterlife. Do not be afraid of Hell. Do not be afraid of vengeful spirits. Do not think that you will be rewarded with a ticket to heaven. Do not think that by killing an enemy you will be rewarded with 73 virgins in the afterlife ( that’s got to be the best yet, what a bunch of losers). Do not wait for a rebirth into anything, lights out, time to go to bed. Just stand on your own two feet and be a good person for fucks sake! Everyone knows what’s right and what’s wrong. Religions were made for shits like George W Bush who are willing to sacrifice his own people to make a dollar.
Aw hell, now I’m getting political, sorry about that,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Once Chuang Tzu dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Tzu. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Tzu who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu. Between Chuang Tzu and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It doens't mean anything but damn it's cool.
G
BKK
hey, man, you do know a lot, I don't know about confucianism or other -sm, but from what you said, buddhism is completely different from those "-sm".
"don’t speak disparagingly of religion", yep , it is exactly what I meant, I don't see why we should. You know more than I do, but I think if you have the right to believe in "-sm", then why not the others?as long as we don't hurt other people, it will be fine. we can discuss or even argue some of our issues, but we cannot deny them compeletly. Buddhism is a peaceful religion. no god, peace make buddhism an unique religion. I'm not a religious person, I learn buddhism simply because it provides acceptable explainations from another aspect other than science.
I have some douts about your philosophy,for example, if everyone knows what is wrong or right, why there are so many problems in our society? why there are violence and wars?
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 07:54 AM
Original message~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hey, man, you do know a lot, I don't know about confucianism or other -sm, but from what you said, buddhism is completely different from those "-sm".
"don’t speak disparagingly of religion", yep , it is exactly what I meant, I don't see why we should. You know more than I do, but I think if you have the right to believe in "-sm", then why not the others?as long as we don't hurt other people, it will be fine. we can discuss or even argue some of our issues, but we cannot deny them compeletly. Buddhism is a peaceful religion. no god, peace make buddhism an unique religion. I'm not a religious person, I learn buddhism simply because it provides acceptable explainations from another aspect other than science.
I have some douts about your philosophy,for example, if everyone knows what is wrong or right, why there are so many problems in our society? why there are violence and wars?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, Buddhism is different from Confucius. Confucianism is really about obedience to authority and performing a certain way, respect and stuff like that. It’s a little screwy unless your “master” holds up his end of the bargain. Basically the only reason Confucianism has survived for 2200 years is because it works very well into the hands of the state. Politicians love it because it orders one to respect authority. It has been the officially sanctioned religion of China pretty much since then.
Taoism on the other hand is very much like Buddhism. A lot of the underlying tenets are the same. You were talking about the particles and that, another of the famous analects of Chuang Tzu is something like said something like the tip of a hair is as big as a mountain. It, the universe is all one, to make distinctions between things is for man, not for the enlightened. As much as an ant understands the thoughts of a man, so does a man understand the thoughts of the enlightened. Of course there are differences between Taoism and Buddhism but the similarities are strong.
As for not speaking disparagingly of religion, no, I cannot do that. It was Karl Marx who is cited first as saying that religion is the opiate of the masses. Religion is state supported because it teaches people to be unquestioning of authority, and to work their asses off for an unseen reward, your reward will come once you are dead. No, that’s wrong, that’s being taken advantage of. That is the institutionalised manipulation of individuals to accept whatever they are offered, no matter how hard they work, and then to smile and say thank you. Religion is the greatest tool of control that was ever invented, yes invented, by those who wanted to control others. Fear and reward, the devoted are nothing more than Pavlov’s dogs. Those in control are either dupes themselves, or the most evil kind of people who prey upon people’s ignorance and consciously use fear and reward to control how others think.
Do people have a right to believe in an “ism”, I don’t know. I don’t think they do. Not without all of the facts. That’s what is cool about Buddhism, he tells one to investigate things first and then decide for yourself. But most people are too weak and or lazy to do this, others are oppressed and are not allowed to investigate spirituality on their own, or not even oppressed, let me cite a couple examples of what I am trying top say. Big in the news these days is Afghanistan. There are clerics there who cannot even read. These uneducated manipulators are simply making it up as they go along. Head scarf issues in France these days, in a poll, over 50% of Muslim women did not even want to wear headscarves in public but did so out of fear of what the fucking minority of fanatical men would do to them if they stopped. Then let’s go to the States, what sort of religious freedom do you suppose exits in some white trash evangelical household (trailerhold)? What choice is a kid given growing up?
So do people have a right to believe? as long as they are fully aware they are being manipulated, then yes.
When I say argue I don’t mean it in an aggressive way, a better word is debate, I just couldn’t think of it at the time.
~~~~~ we cannot deny them compeletly~~~~~
if you want to talk about “faith based” ideas then yes, I will deny them completely
One thing that westerners often just don’t get, is how a Buddhist, or a Confucianist, or a Taoist, really just goes through the motions. Yes there are these great ideas but for the most part there are just rules. For example it is against doctrine for a woman to touch a monk, the monk must be kept pure. What a bunch of hog wash. What about the monk that was living in New Zealand that had a refugee smuggling people trafficking business set up going? Just because it is an Eastern religion doesn’t mean that the people who are practising it are any more enlightened or good or pious or anything than some western church goer. A lot of Europeans and Californians get caught up in the Eastern Philosophy thing. One of you guys
Had a good quote from the Dhali Lamma saying not to accept anything too quickly, something like that, that was good.
Yes learn Buddhism, you can’t go wrong with that. But as soon as someone asks you to make a donation, and they have a nicer place than you, think twice. But if you’re leaning it for yourself, as a road to being a better person then go for it. But lay off on the spiritual stuff, that just makes people who believe in that sort of thing, including Christians, Muslims, Jews, and whoever esle look like fools.
~~~~~~~~~
I have some douts about your philosophy,for example, if everyone knows what is wrong or right, why there are so many problems in our society? why there are violence and wars?
~~~~~~~~
That one is easy, greed. Peoplewith power taking advantage of peole with less power. There are very few things done where greed is not involved. Of course, there is not often greed involved in schoolyard / bar room fights, those are just ass holes and immaturity. But if you want to talk about the big things, then they have no other purpose than than money and control. I’m going to put a quote in here and then push off, I’m getting really bored. This is one of the most damning things ever said about the US of A. Not because of what it says but a combination of what it says and that it was said by a highly decorated Major General of the Marine corps.
~~~~~~~~~~
Major General Smedley Butler on Interventionism
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
Originally posted by GS1969@24 March 2004 - 03:37
I know two novices arguing about Buddhism may not lead to enlightenment. I’m sure both of us have gaping holes in our understanding, but at least we can look critically at what each other has to say and we’ll sort of muddle through from there. Let’s see….
~~~ well, then prove it wrong~~~
Well I think Hobbes is right there, it’s not up to me to disprove your heaven and hell and your other six realms, your hungry ghosts and your devas. I can dig your humans an animals but the other stuff you talk about is unproven. It is not correct to ask me to disprove something that you have no proof of in the first place.
~~~ you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself~~~
The only thing I have asked people to believe is be good to other people. You’re right, I can’t prove that being good is right, you know why? because there is no ‘greater truth’. There is no god or spirit force or nature laying down the spiritual law for us. This is terrifying for people. If there is nothing to fear after you die then why should you do anything in life that isn’t for simple self gratification? If I think you have a nice car why don’t I just take it? If I like the looks of a girl, why don’t I smack her over the head with a club and drag her into the bushes and have sex with her? If I don’t like you, why can’t I kill you? Why? For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right. Not because I will be judged after I die either by your “natural” force that, I’m sorry is the same as God. You may not say it, but something judges you right? Sends you to heaven or hell? You conveniently call it nature, but no, it’s not natural. Nature doesn’t care who the hell you kill, or rob, or rape. I don’t do it because it’s not nice, and I don’t do lesser things because I am afraid of Johnny Law.
~~~ and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. ~~~
I know there is no god in Buddhism. But you know what? People still pray to the Buddha. The have deified a man. Hmm, sort of like the Christians have done. So what is the difference between praying to this skinny dude on a cross, or a contemplative dude sitting cross-legged on a pedestal? They both personify a philosophy no? They both represent a greater truth no? They are both prayed to? Hell, Buddhists even give offerings to Buddha everyday, like cans of pop, open, complete with straws, apparently Buddha prefers Red Fanta (I live in Thailand BTW, BKK is Bangkok if anyone didn’t know). Buddhists say there is no god but they still pray to a “spirit world” therefore their distinction between god and not god is invalid. Be a Buddhist in philosophy but do not pray to Buddha, because then you are admitting he is a god.
~~~ if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name~~~
Sorry dude, gotta call bullshit on this one. If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake? If you get a haircut, is not what you have remaining still called hair? If you step on a landmine and loose your legs, are you still not human?
These Socratic arguments are simple crap. People call things, things. There is no definition written by the hand of god or the hand of nature saying “This is man”, “This is computer”. Thaye are simple conventions used by people to help communicate. Which touches upon another great point of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity and whatever else; that language cannot desribe adequately the spirit world. There are no words for it. It is beyond human comprehension. When one does catch a glimpse of it, that is enlightenment, and that is hokey. Let’s spend our lives meditating to understand something that we cannot desribe, because it’s not real. This is just a cop out for the leaders of their respective philosophies. "There is something else out there that we cannot begin to understand", not.
~~~ Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.~~~
“obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone”? Why the hell not? There is nothing obvious about this at all. Yes there is an effect, the dude he killed is dead, and all of the ramifications that go along with that, but as far as some mojo booga booga effect in the afterlife for our murderer, sorry, ashes to ashes dust to dust, our boy and his killer end up in the same dust bin, destined to be recycled back into the universe, uhbadee uhbadee uhbadee that’s all folks. Don’t try to scare me with your afterlife, convince me to live by the rules of this plane, either by raising me correctly with a strong sense of right and wrong or a healthy fear of retribution by the Johnny Law or Clint Eastwood.
Once again, simply do not do anything to cause suffering to others. Save the spirits for Ghostbusters.
I know what I write sometimes sounds angry and confrontational, I'm sorry for that, it's not meant to be, I'm actually have a very good time.
G
BKK
finally I have time to look at your reply.
well, then prove it wrong
You said it's wrong, It's your responsibility to prove it. Before it being proved, there is no right or wrong. I found this:
Q:You have talked a lot about rebirth but is there any proof that we are reborn when we die?
A:Not only is there scientific evidence to support the Buddhist belief in rebirth, it is the only after-life theory that has any evidence to support it. There is not a scrap of evidence to prove the existence of heaven and of course evidence of annihilation at death must be lacking. But during the last 30 years parapsychologists have been studying reports that some people have vivid memories of their former lives. For example, in England, a 5 year-old girl said she could remember her "other mother and father" and she talked vividly about what sounded like the events in the life of another person. Parapsychologists were called in and they asked her hundreds of questions to which she gave answers. She spoke of living in a particular village in what appeared to be Spain, she gave the name of the village, the name of the street she lived in, her neighbors' names and details about her everyday life there. She also fearfully spoke of how she had been struck by a car and died of her injuries two days later. When these details were checked, they were found to be accurate. There was a village in Spain with the name the five-year-old girl had given. There was a house of the type she had described in the street she had named. What is more, it was found that a 23-year-old woman living in the house had been killed in a car accident five years before. Now how is it possible for a five year- old girl living in England and who had never been to Spain to know all these details? And of course, this is not the only case of this type. Professor Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia's Department of Psychology has described dozens of cases of this type in his books. He is an accredited scientist whose 25 year study of people who remember former lives is very strong evidence for the Buddhist teaching of rebirth.
Q:Well, have there been any scientists who believe in rebirth?
A:Yes. Thomas Huxley, who was responsible for having science introduced into the 19th century British school system and who was the first scientist to defend Darwin's theories, believed that reincarnation was a very plausible idea. In his famous book 'Evolution and Ethics and other Essays', he says:
In the doctrine of transmigration, whatever its origin, Brahmanical and Buddhist speculation found, ready to hand, the means of constructing a plausible vindication of the ways of the Cosmos to man... Yet this plea of justification is not less plausible than others; and none but very hasty thinkers will reject it on the ground of inherent absurdity. Like the doctrine of evolution itself, that of transmigration has its roots in the world of reality; and it may claim such support as the great argument from analogy is capable of supplying.
Then, Professor Gustaf Stromberg, the famous Swedish astronomer, physicist and friend of Einstein also found the idea of rebirth appealing. Opinions differ whether human souls can be reincarnated on the earth or not. In 1936 a very interesting case was thoroughly investigated and reported by the government authorities in India. A girl (Shanti Devi from Delhi) could accurately describe her previous life (at Muttra, five hundred miles from Delhi) which ended about a year before her "second birth." She gave the name of her husband and child and described her home and life history. The investigating commission brought her to her former relatives, who verified all her statements. Among the people of India reincarnations are regarded as commonplace; the astonishing thing for them in this case was the great number of facts the girl remembered. This and similar cases can be regarded as additional evidence for the theory of the indestructibility of memory. Professor Julian Huxley, the distinguished British scientist who was Director General of UNESCO believed that rebirth was quite in harmony with scientific thinking. There is nothing against a permanently surviving spirit-individuality being in some way given off at death, as a definite wireless message is given off by a sending apparatus working in a particular way. But it must be remembered that the wireless message only becomes a message again when it comes in contact with a new, material structure - the receiver. So with our possible spirit-emanation. It... would never think or feel unless again 'embodied' in some way. Our per venalities are so based on body that it is really impossible to think of survival which would be in any true sense personal without a body of sorts... I can think of something being given off which would bear the same relation to men and women as a wireless message to the transmitting apparatus; but in that case 'the dead' would, so far as one can see, be nothing but disturbances of different patterns wandering through the universe until... they... came back to actuality of consciousness by making contact with something which could work as a receiving apparatus for mind. Even very practical and down-to-earth people like the American industrialist Henry Ford found the idea or rebirth acceptable. Ford was attracted to the idea of rebirth because, unlike the theistic idea or the materialistic idea, rebirth gives you a second chance to develop yourself. Henry Ford says: I adopted the theory of Reincarnation when I was twenty-six. Religion offered nothing to the point.. Even work could not give me complete satisfaction. Work is fume if we cannot utilize the experience we collect in one life in the next. When I discovered Reincarnation it was as if I had found a universal plan. I realized that there was a chance to work out my ideas. Time was no longer limited. I was no longer a slave to the hands of the clock... Genius is experience. Some seem to think that it is a gift or talent, but it is the fruit of long experience in many lives. Some are older souls than others, and so they know more... The discovery of Reincarnation put my mind at ease... If you preserve a record of this conversation, write it so that it puts men's minds at ease. I would like to communicate to others the calmness that the long view of life gives to us.
So the Buddhist teachings of rebirth does have some scientific evidence to support it. It is logically consistent and it goes a long way to answering questions that theistic and the materialistic theories fail to do. But it is also very comforting. What can be worse than a theory of life that gives you no second chance, no opportunity to amend the mistakes you have made in this life and no time to further develop the skills and abilities you have nurtured in this life. But according to the Buddha, if you fail to attain Nirvana in this life, you will have the opportunity to try again next time. If you have made mistakes in this life, you will be able to correct yourself in the next life. You will truly be able to learn from your mistakes. Things you were unable to do or achieve in this life may well become possible in the next life. What a wonderful teaching!
(http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda05.htm)
my comment: let's forget about the rebirth or nirvana things, it is difficult to accept. there are a lot of other things in Buddhism besides rebirth.
this thread is too long, I'll post the rest to the next thread
Originally posted by GS1969@24 March 2004 - 03:37
I know two novices arguing about Buddhism may not lead to enlightenment. I’m sure both of us have gaping holes in our understanding, but at least we can look critically at what each other has to say and we’ll sort of muddle through from there. Let’s see….
~~~ well, then prove it wrong~~~
Well I think Hobbes is right there, it’s not up to me to disprove your heaven and hell and your other six realms, your hungry ghosts and your devas. I can dig your humans an animals but the other stuff you talk about is unproven. It is not correct to ask me to disprove something that you have no proof of in the first place.
~~~ you ask people to believe you but you can't prove it yourself~~~
The only thing I have asked people to believe is be good to other people. You’re right, I can’t prove that being good is right, you know why? because there is no ‘greater truth’. There is no god or spirit force or nature laying down the spiritual law for us. This is terrifying for people. If there is nothing to fear after you die then why should you do anything in life that isn’t for simple self gratification? If I think you have a nice car why don’t I just take it? If I like the looks of a girl, why don’t I smack her over the head with a club and drag her into the bushes and have sex with her? If I don’t like you, why can’t I kill you? Why? For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right. Not because I will be judged after I die either by your “natural” force that, I’m sorry is the same as God. You may not say it, but something judges you right? Sends you to heaven or hell? You conveniently call it nature, but no, it’s not natural. Nature doesn’t care who the hell you kill, or rob, or rape. I don’t do it because it’s not nice, and I don’t do lesser things because I am afraid of Johnny Law.
~~~ and I've mentioned there is no God in buddhism, you seem to ingore this fact. ~~~
I know there is no god in Buddhism. But you know what? People still pray to the Buddha. The have deified a man. Hmm, sort of like the Christians have done. So what is the difference between praying to this skinny dude on a cross, or a contemplative dude sitting cross-legged on a pedestal? They both personify a philosophy no? They both represent a greater truth no? They are both prayed to? Hell, Buddhists even give offerings to Buddha everyday, like cans of pop, open, complete with straws, apparently Buddha prefers Red Fanta (I live in Thailand BTW, BKK is Bangkok if anyone didn’t know). Buddhists say there is no god but they still pray to a “spirit world” therefore their distinction between god and not god is invalid. Be a Buddhist in philosophy but do not pray to Buddha, because then you are admitting he is a god.
~~~ if the parts of a computer are removed, then it's not call a computer, computer=nothing; if the compoents of a video card are removed, then it's not called video card, it's nothing also. Likewise, if you remove your head, your hands, then you are not a human, what is a human being? it's just a name~~~
Sorry dude, gotta call bullshit on this one. If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake? If you get a haircut, is not what you have remaining still called hair? If you step on a landmine and loose your legs, are you still not human?
These Socratic arguments are simple crap. People call things, things. There is no definition written by the hand of god or the hand of nature saying “This is man”, “This is computer”. Thaye are simple conventions used by people to help communicate. Which touches upon another great point of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity and whatever else; that language cannot desribe adequately the spirit world. There are no words for it. It is beyond human comprehension. When one does catch a glimpse of it, that is enlightenment, and that is hokey. Let’s spend our lives meditating to understand something that we cannot desribe, because it’s not real. This is just a cop out for the leaders of their respective philosophies. "There is something else out there that we cannot begin to understand", not.
~~~ Cause and effect can be applied to everything in the universe, if you don't respect other people, they won't respect you(you suffer the effect of your cause), the same is a murderer lives his rest life without being known he is a murderer, he caused other people's death, but he is dead,then where the effect goes? obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone, so the effect is still there, where can the effect goes?only in the murderer, if the effect can't stay in the murderer's body, then the effect can only go to his spirit.~~~
“obviously, it is not logical to say the effect just gone”? Why the hell not? There is nothing obvious about this at all. Yes there is an effect, the dude he killed is dead, and all of the ramifications that go along with that, but as far as some mojo booga booga effect in the afterlife for our murderer, sorry, ashes to ashes dust to dust, our boy and his killer end up in the same dust bin, destined to be recycled back into the universe, uhbadee uhbadee uhbadee that’s all folks. Don’t try to scare me with your afterlife, convince me to live by the rules of this plane, either by raising me correctly with a strong sense of right and wrong or a healthy fear of retribution by the Johnny Law or Clint Eastwood.
Once again, simply do not do anything to cause suffering to others. Save the spirits for Ghostbusters.
I know what I write sometimes sounds angry and confrontational, I'm sorry for that, it's not meant to be, I'm actually have a very good time.
G
BKK
"For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right."
to you it's wrong but to some other people maybe it's right, hitler thought killing people was right. For you, not believe in anything is right, for some people, believing god is right. then what's wrong or right?
"If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake?"
yes, it is. a piece of cake is cake, but the parts of a computer is not called computer, got it?
GS, thanks for the discussion, I'm glad you had a good time. I need a break. let's see what other people think.
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 09:47 AM
Okey dokey,
What you have found that supposedly proves rebirth or reincarnation honestly does nothing of the sort. If this is the sort of stuff that experts in the field, who devote their whole lives to accumulating evidence can come up with, then it's pretty weak. I'm not a theologian, I’m not a philosopher, or a scientist, if I can see the weakness of the evidence then I wonder what someone actually trained in the field must say.
The story of the little girls is good, but why do each of these cases describe previous lives from basically the same geographic areas? Maybe souls don’t like to travel too far eh? I don’t know. I don’t know about these cases but I do know that they most certainly are not proof of rebirth. Your examiner would call it rebirth, this other examiner would call it speaking with the dead, a third would call it a complete hoax, a fourth might call it psychic energy transfer, I don’t know. If it is true and real, then cool. But to say that this is *proof* of reincarnation?, no I’m sorry, it proves nothing of the sort.
Then we go on to look at, oh my, famous people, because you know how famous people must know all the right answers. Opinions. All we are presented with in the second part is opinions of people. Once again, does an opinion constitute proof? Hardly. That’s even less convincing than the stories of the little girls and I am insulted and feel cheated that you made me waste my time reading it. I don’t want to read another's opinion as supposed evidence, that's just an insult.
What else have we got…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said it's wrong, It's your responsibility to prove it. Before it being proved, there is no right or wrong. I found this:
…………………….
Now that was good. Good point. I haven’t proven you wrong so I shouldn’t say it’s wrong, but I will say, not bloody likely. And I will say, you must stop using unproven theories of faith as evidence or as levels in a Socratic argument …although Socrates couldn’t stop so I don’t suppose you will either.
But I am glad you are talking and questioning, you are doing far better than most of the people on the planet and are at this point much further ahead from a critical thinking standpoint than most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For me, it’s wrong. I don’t do awful things because I don’t think it Right."
to you it's wrong but to some other people maybe it's right, hitler thought killing people was right. For you, not believe in anything is right, for some people, believing god is right. then what's wrong or right?
………………..
Please don’t take what I say out of context. If you read any philosopher, not that I am a philosopher but that’s the hat I will wear today, you must take the sum of what is said, and accept that. When I talk about Right with the capital “R” I was hoping I wouldn’t have to repeat my self again with the “do not do anything that will cause suffering to anyone else”. That is what Right means. Hitler caused quite a bit of suffering so even in self examination I sure he could be convinced that he was not Right. Believing in god is not Right, it is to me nothing more than a preference of cherry pie over apple, the proof is in the pudding, don't tell me you're a good person, show me. Read the Analect of Confucius and pay attention to what it means to be a gentleman for all you will ever need.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If you have a cake, and you take out a piece of cake, is it not still a cake?"
yes, it is. a piece of cake is cake, but the parts of a computer is not called computer, got it?
……………….
Yes I do indeed “get it” but you weren’t talking about computers were you? You were talking about people. A human being was your subject and you were using some shitty computer metaphor trying to prove that the if you take apart a person he is no longer a person and I called bullshit on it. Your metaphor did not work so do not try to defend it. GOT IT?
I don’t know, got anything else?
I’m not trying to cut you down here man, I like Buddhism, I like what it stands for, I just don’t like the proofs they use.
All of these old religious dudes and philosophers had to think of some sort of proof for their positions and that is what cheapens them. The Christians use their god, The Jews use their god, the Muslims use their god, yes I know they al use the same god and I don’t care, that’s my point. Then you get to the Eastern religions and philosophies, including Buddhism, and they’ll use things like spirits and gods, and ancient wisdom.
Let’s get back to Gregism for a conclusion shall we?
How about a philosophy where you don’t have to prove anything, sort of like how Buddhism starts out, just be good to each other, do not cause suffering. Why not? For the sake of not being the cause of suffering, not some because some hokey vengeful spirit is going to kick your souls ass or you think you’ll be given a ticket to the good life, or afterlife, just because it’s Right.
G
BKK
~say no to smileys!~
The Anti-Smiley League
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by caza@24 March 2004 - 09:51
GS, thanks for the discussion, I'm glad you had a good time. I need a break. let's see what other people think.
I think you're right, I want to hear what Canuk, the guy who started the whole thing has to say.
G
BKK
ashutosh_cool16
03-24-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by TheCanuk@19 March 2004 - 02:40
wut happens when we die. is their a heaven, if so wuts it like. do ppl actually go 2 hell?
wut is heaven is hell and hell is heaven . mabye someone mixed them up and were all actually praying to go to hell?
wut if when we die we come back as someone else, and have no memory of past lifes?
wut if we become someones gurdian.? :unsure:
wut do u guys think?
opinions would b nice , enlighten me :lol:
this is the original question...
u guys r goin :offtopic:
imported_GS1969
03-24-2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by ashutosh_cool16+24 March 2004 - 14:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ashutosh_cool16 @ 24 March 2004 - 14:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-TheCanuk@19 March 2004 - 02:40
wut happens when we die. is their a heaven, if so wuts it like. do ppl actually go 2 hell?
wut is heaven is hell and hell is heaven . mabye someone mixed them up and were all actually praying to go to hell?
wut if when we die we come back as someone else, and have no memory of past lifes?
wut if we become someones gurdian.? :unsure:
wut do u guys think?
opinions would b nice , enlighten me :lol:
this is the original question...
u guys r goin :offtopic:[/b][/quote]
Alright, thread closed by topic Nazi. A dubious call though I must say.
Rest in Peace
G
BKK
Canuk is not coming back yet so I post this. GS, I guess our discussion is just too deep for other people, they are just scared away, lol.
one more thing and I will not say more: if you are too insisting on your own, your mind can't adapt to anything more. first, you are interested in these discussions; second, you deny everything except yours; third, you have just a little study on buddhism, I might say, you were questioning it, it's good but not against toward it premisely and want to prove it ridiculous. It's the same when I saw your philosophy. (so now we have your philosophy, science, buddhism)
I could not help for those reasons. it will not do you any good, I hope this will help.
THE SCIENTIFIC OUTLOOK OF BUDDHISM
INTRODUCTION
Buddhism, that oldest world religion, is generally misconceived to be a blind faith. As seen from its outward appearance, really it is painted with a strong religious color. To a non-Buddhist, who sees the golden image of Buddha, and hears the chanting of Sanscrit Sutras and the clinking of the bell, Buddhism is nothing but idolatry; in view of their passive life, Buddhists of the Order are said to be “social parasites”. However, on the contrary, whatever is expounded in Buddhism, down to every minor matter, is based on the Teaching of Buddha. Indeed, some of the Buddhist principles are too profound to be easily explained and understood by the lay people, except those of high intellect. Without making a serious effort to study the issue in question, those who say what others say, and believe what others believe, that Buddhism is a superstitious faith, betray not only their ignorance of its fundamental principles but also their lack of common sense and understanding; therefore, in regard to Buddhism, what they say and what they believe cannot but be blind and untrue.
Depending in what sense Religion is defined, Buddhism may be called Religion or non-Religion. If religion refers to Monotheism or Polytheism, then Buddhism, being non-theological, is no religion at all. If religion, broadly defined, refers to some School of Teaching, Buddhism in that sense may be said to be in the same category as Confucianism and Taoism.
In the wake of the remarkable development of modern Science, the monotheistic and polytheistic religions of the world are open to scientists’ attack rather helplessly, but Buddhism stands out as unique exception to this. It is because the more advanced is Science, the more and the better is Buddhism understood. In the meantime, in parallel to the stupendous scientific achievements of this age. Buddhism spreads more and more to the world. In China, at one time some engineers and scientists were not only devout Buddhists but also conversant with Buddhist Scriptures. This is an eloquent proof that Buddhist theories can be tested and corroborated by science. In reality, the more learned the scientist is, the easier and the better can he comprehend the difficult Buddhist terms and the profound theories of Buddhism. Thus he would come to realize that whatever phenomena, physical or psychical, as explained by Buddha, far from being superstitious, are all based on Reason and reality only. In the light of this understanding, the writer was prompted to present to readers “The scientific Outlook of Buddhism.”
http://www.purifymind.com/drfu30.htm
hobbes
03-25-2004, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by caza@24 March 2004 - 09:30
But it is also very comforting. What can be worse than a theory of life that gives you no second chance, no opportunity to amend the mistakes you have made in this life and no time to further develop the skills and abilities you have nurtured in this life. But according to the Buddha, if you fail to attain Nirvana in this life, you will have the opportunity to try again next time. If you have made mistakes in this life, you will be able to correct yourself in the next life. You will truly be able to learn from your mistakes. Things you were unable to do or achieve in this life may well become possible in the next life. What a wonderful teaching!
(http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda05.htm)
my comment: let's forget about the rebirth or nirvana things, it is difficult to accept. there are a lot of other things in Buddhism besides rebirth.
this thread is too long, I'll post the rest to the next thread
That has been my point about religions all along, they are a product of fear. A panacea to hold that evil spector call "DEATH", at bay. A port of comfort in a cruel, indifferent world.
The key is that you have to buy in to the fairy tale, otherwise you know you are following a lie and it gives no comfort.
An analogy was made of the soul being emitted from the body, like a signal from a radio, and finding rest only in a receiver "the new vessel". How does this account for the first "soul" and where do the billions of new ones come from? I'm not even going to ask how a dead radio transmits a signal?
It is a comforting thought, and too be quite honest, I came to the belief several years ago, on my own, that re-incarnation was the only possibly belief that is plausible. It follows the rule of conservation of energy and the obvious cycle of life and nutrients.
I die, I am eaten by worms, they die and are broken down and a flower blooms in my honor.
I then had to decide if a transferrable soul was possible, is there an essence (something extra-corporeal) to us. My experience is that subtle changes in human chemistry alter the personality of people quite radically. I began to suspect that we are purely biological.
We all know the brain, but what is the mind/soul, where we say, "I am Hobbes and this is what I think and feel. I am working to be a better person".
Philosphers have debated the mind-brain issue for quite some time and I think it was best summarized by Jean-Paul Sarte for me.
When you examine a beautiful stone statue, you can break it down into the individual atoms that compose the structure. No one atom is art, individually they are nothing but matter and space. When you arrange them in a complex pattern, the summation is something possessing a property that no single component has. The product is more than the additive properties of the atoms, the complex interaction creates a new property called "artistic beauty".
So analogously, the brain is a complex functioning of many different neurons with axons and dendrites, and the cummulative effect of these components working together create something more than the sum of the parts, they create the mind.
So the mind is a product of the functioning brain, and not a location in it. The mind is the soul.
So when we stop sending glucose (our battery) to the brain in death, the stored data is lost and the brain becomes a collection of useless axons and dendrites. Even if you send the glucose back in, all your thoughts memories have leaked through the cell membrane and your harddrive can never be restored.
As an aside, notice that when I talked about the mind/brain conflict, I didn't give a link to a book and tell you, "it is explained here" and put the burden upon you to read it.
So don't give me links on Buddism and science, you read the link, you synthesize the information, and you post how you think science and Buddism are harmonious. You want to sell you product, you need to do the work, not give me homework.
The site did seem to be another one of those smash square peg into round hole to make Buddism and science appear to be in concert.
There are books out there that claim that science confirms the Bible.
So, I am more interested in your ability to express your thoughts than provide links to sites of dubious validity.
chalice
03-25-2004, 02:48 AM
Hey, Hobbes, how come you're always beating on god?
Are you the devil?
If so, what can I get for a slightly soiled, less than translucent, once previously owned (by a careful Buddist dirver) soul.
We can work a deal for the souls of my two offspring (innocent yet corruptable) providing a fifedom in Hades is assurred.
bulio
03-25-2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by chalice@25 March 2004 - 02:48
Hey, Hobbes, how come you're always beating on god?
Are you the devil?
If so, what can I get for a slightly soiled, less than translucent, once previously owned (by a careful Buddist dirver) soul.
We can work a deal for the souls of my two offspring (innocent yet corruptable) providing a fifedom in Hades is assurred.
lol, I believe there is a god :lol:
Originally posted by hobbes@24 March 2004 - 04:14
You explain "bad luck" as penance for improper acts in a former life. How absolutely simple and equally unproven.
Care to make up any more fairy tales.
If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life. Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A 12 year old could come up with something better than this.
Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world. I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse.
Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y".
What does "there will be no human" mean? As long as an entity is aware of itself as an individual, who cares what it is called. You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master.
I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy. This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls". Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really.
As far as your edit, all of us are searching for "the truth" and we have dismissed your thought upon reflection of their merits, not in an effort to be mean.
"Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world. I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse."
if science or Buddhism or other religions cannot explain spirit world then what else can explain it? how can we know the spirit world or if there is a spirit in our lifetimes? I'm afraid science can never tell us, at least not in hundread years.
"Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y"."
i don't understand why you said so. Every formula comes after a thought which has been proved later. the process of proving is called experiment in science.
"If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life. Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A 12 year old could come up with something better than this."
I just briefly explained it, if you wanna know more, the explanation could be longer than the bible(actually the ideas of bible are borrowed from Buddhism,or to say properly, bible shows the lowest level of wisdom of Buddhism). I'll try to interpret this: depends on how bad it is, killing will go to a place where you can suffer(it can be expanded here, I'm just skipping them), beating someone regularly will get sick all the time in next life, however, karma could be changed, for example, you in your past life was honest and kind, you were born rich this life, but due to the internal force(your brain) and external force(enviroment), you may become a ingorant person, so your next life will be born poor. If you think and live like an animal and act like a dog, you probably will become a dog. just imagine the original spirit is a round circle, each time you do something bad, the strcture of the spirit will change, you do something good, circle become rounder, the rounder the circle the best result you will get.The world is complex, human is complex, how exactly the karma works only the nature and enlighted people know. anway, this is a good question.
"You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master."
as long as you are not assuming I'm superstitious, I have no problem to admit this fact. at least I know more than you.
"I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy. This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls". Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really."
so how about christians? are they rejecting western culture too? you are making excuses while yourself confused.
hobbes
03-25-2004, 04:12 AM
How am I confused, exactly?
What excuses am I making, exactly? I am agnostic, not Christian.
Why do you think you know more than I do?
When I post, I give my thoughts and the reasoning behind it.
All you do is make vague comments, unsupported accusations, and link us to your pet site that supports your belief.
Originally posted by hobbes@25 March 2004 - 04:12
How am I confused, exactly?
What excuses am I making, exactly?
Why do you think you know more than I do?
When I post, I give my thoughts and the reasoning behind it.
All you do is make vague comments, unsupported accusations, and link us to your pet site that supports your belief.
clam down man, so you are saying I'm not reasoning, I didn't give my thought? the round circle things is my thought, cause and effect is and many other things. and why do you think it's reasonable to say Buddhists are rejecting western culture?isn't it an excuse to reject buddhism? I meant I know more buddhism than you do, sorry for saying it. It's why I posted the link for you know some introductions of buddhism before you argue this and that. I don't know why I'm arguing with you, I guess I'm confused too.
hobbes
03-25-2004, 04:33 AM
Let me be quite honest with you, your ability in the English language is insufficient for such a complex discussion.
I can't even begin to be bothered with explaining what I perceive to be mis-understandings on your part, particularly in regard to this "western" issue.
I consider this to be a shame as I would like to "talk" to you in the language you are most comfortable in, so that I could appreciate the merits of your opinions.
Alas, this is not too be, probably a loss for both of us.
I can't be bothered explaining and re-explaining your misunderstandings of what I am trying to express.
Take care, maybe in the next lifetime, we will be able speak more lucidly to one another. ;)
Originally posted by hobbes@25 March 2004 - 04:33
Let me be quite honest with you, your ability in the English language is insufficient for such a complex discussion.
I can't even begin to be bothered with explaining what I perceive to be mis-understandings on your part, particularly in regard to this "western" issue.
I consider this to be a shame as I would like to "talk" to you in the language you are most comfortable in, so that I could appreciate the merits of your opinions.
Alas, this is not too be, probably a loss for both of us.
I can't be bothered explaining and re-explaining your misunderstandings of what I am trying to express.
Take care, maybe in the next lifetime, we will be able speak more lucidly to one another. ;)
hmm..., no one loses here ok, we are not competing for something.
so are you going to your next life soon when I'm improving English? :frusty: sorry,my bad for the misunderstanding. don't worry about it, I'll just watch ok.
anway, you take care too. i'll talk to you next life.
Biggles
03-26-2004, 12:32 AM
I had rather hoped my short piece at the beginning of all this might have kicked of a small discussion regarding the nature of being at a sub-molecular level.
:(
Alas, it was not to be. It is interesting, though, that the more one reads the arguments for one particular or belief over another how they all seem to blur into one (or is that just me?) :blink:
destroyerofevil
03-26-2004, 07:46 AM
Hi, how r all of u ppl doing? i'm new here.
destroyerofevil
03-26-2004, 07:48 AM
i really don't know and guess that we'll never find out. But my prediction is that one day the world ends and a new one starts in its place. And since we're dead, we need to look after our great great...grandchildren.
imported_GS1969
03-26-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Biggles@26 March 2004 - 01:32
...It is interesting, though, that the more one reads the arguments for one particular or belief over another how they all seem to blur into one (or is that just me?) :blink:
Unless you are really engaged in the debate, most topics really do seem mind numbing. But if it is something that one finds interesting then not at all. I for example simply love lesbian porn, but to a guy who doesn't... ok bad example. Strike that. I for example love science, any science, any new bits of knowledge, scoop 'em right up. But there are many people who don't have an appreciation of science, couldn't care less, these people are called Americans. Now to them, knowledge of the world around them is pretty much irrelevent, as long as there's some sitcom on TV about a dufus dad, his smart wife, and their rapscalian kids, they are perfectly happy. Now give these people a six pack and a loaded firearm and they're absolutely tickled, but the lastest data on say the combined mass of the solar system, or an experimental gene therapy and it's snore city.
So is it 'just you'?, hmph, probably not...
G
BKK
imported_GS1969
03-26-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by destroyerofevil@26 March 2004 - 08:48
i really don't know and guess that we'll never find out. But my prediction is that one day the world ends and a new one starts in its place. And since we're dead, we need to look after our great great...grandchildren.
Well, I agree that the world will eventually end, maybe not tomorrow, but I'll bet you a dollar that within 5 billion years, yup, the earth will be gone. As for a new one starting in it's place, sorry son, but your little dream world ain't gonna happen.
So long and thanks for all the fish,
G
BKK
Biggles
03-26-2004, 04:45 PM
GS
I take your point. This is particularly true if you are trapped a long journey with someone who has a fascination for the codification of 1950s train timetables.
The point I was making, albeit obtusely, was that once someone gets on their evangelical high horse the actual substance of the religion does not appear to matter significantly. The general "noise" sounds the same i.e. my beliefs are superior to yours because....
hobbes
03-26-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by GS1969+26 March 2004 - 17:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GS1969 @ 26 March 2004 - 17:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Biggles@26 March 2004 - 01:32
...It is interesting, though, that the more one reads the arguments for one particular or belief over another how they all seem to blur into one (or is that just me?) :blink:
Unless you are really engaged in the debate, most topics really do seem mind numbing. But if it is something that one finds interesting then not at all. I for example simply love lesbian porn, but to a guy who doesn't... ok bad example. Strike that. I for example love science, any science, any new bits of knowledge, scoop 'em right up. But there are many people who don't have an appreciation of science, couldn't care less, these people are called Americans. Now to them, knowledge of the world around them is pretty much irrelevent, as long as there's some sitcom on TV about a dufus dad, his smart wife, and their rapscalian kids, they are perfectly happy. Now give these people a six pack and a loaded firearm and they're absolutely tickled, but the lastest data on say the combined mass of the solar system, or an experimental gene therapy and it's snore city.
So is it 'just you'?, hmph, probably not...
G
BKK[/b][/quote]
Some might consider this statement to be a bit ignorant and offensive.
Fortunately, Americans are known to take the high road in dealing with such matters.
imported_GS1969
03-27-2004, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by hobbes@26 March 2004 - 17:55
Some might consider this statement to be a bit ignorant and offensive.
Fortunately, Americans are known to take the high road in dealing with such matters.
TeeHee, I know, I was just being a jerk. I know no population has a monopoly on ignorance. Although, people are stupid, persons aren't.
G
BKK
imported_GS1969
03-27-2004, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Biggles@26 March 2004 - 17:45
GS
I take your point. This is particularly true if you are trapped a long journey with someone who has a fascination for the codification of 1950s train timetables.
The point I was making, albeit obtusely, was that once someone gets on their evangelical high horse the actual substance of the religion does not appear to matter significantly. The general "noise" sounds the same i.e. my beliefs are superior to yours because....
Of course. Duly noted. Yes, once "belief" and "faith" enters into an equation all logic and rational thought gets left by the side of the road.
G
BKK
what's going on here?
"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said it's wrong, It's your responsibility to prove it. Before it being proved, there is no right or wrong. I found this:
…………………….
Now that was good. Good point. I haven’t proven you wrong so I shouldn’t say it’s wrong, but I will say, not bloody likely. And I will say, you must stop using unproven theories of faith as evidence or as levels in a Socratic argument …although Socrates couldn’t stop so I don’t suppose you will either.
But I am glad you are talking and questioning, you are doing far better than most of the people on the planet and are at this point much further ahead from a critical thinking standpoint than most. "
haha when I looked over this topic I found I missed this and a lot of other things you {said} coz they are too long man thanks for the compliment though If I saw this I wouldn't say something against you lol.
Neo 721
03-28-2004, 01:06 AM
seems a meaningless question, i suppose it will be answered in due course :unsure:
imported_GS1969
03-28-2004, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by caza@27 March 2004 - 06:22
haha when I looked over this topic I found I missed this and a lot of other things you {said} coz they are too long man thanks for the compliment though If I saw this I wouldn't say something against you lol.
Oh my god, Do you mean to say I was debating a topic with a guy who couldn't even be bothered to give my responses more than a cursory glance. Unbelievable. But that really does explain a lot. It’s often people like this, people who adopt faith based philosophies, who simply ignore what other people have to say.
Well jokes on me I guess, thank you for your consideration and blow me you mystic retard. (oh gee, I wonder if he read my response close enough this time)
G
BKK
no offence at all Ive been too busy with school you know and I had to talk to two guys at the same time i did gave it a cursory look its why I missed a lot of things I said I wouldn't against you but not your whole words Im leaving so long
evildon
03-28-2004, 05:42 AM
My mom died Friday...
imported_GS1969
03-28-2004, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by evildon@28 March 2004 - 06:42
My mom died Friday...
oh shit man that's awful. Was it sudden or did everyone know it was coming? Hang in there man.
G
BKK
Mr. Peabody
03-28-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by evildon@28 March 2004 - 05:42
My mom died Friday...
Sorry about that.
I often ponder of the thought of what happens to us when we die,I read some other posts.
I was outside putting away a few brews,talking to my friend.
Somehow after looking up to the stars we started thinking about the Universe and when it started.Wondering when it started,how it started,maybe it was a new Universe-there being a previouse Universe.
Welll after thinking about it for awhile,I still was at a lost.
I think when it comes down to it ,somethings weren't meant to be understood.
So I think death isn't an end to life,just a different stage.
Smith
04-03-2004, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by evildon@28 March 2004 - 05:42
My mom died Friday...
well, at least we know she went to a better place.
one that isnt cruewl like this world we live in.
i was reading some of your opinions and there pretty deep.
nice to know theres still people with a little culture in the world.
evildon
04-03-2004, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by GS1969+28 March 2004 - 05:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GS1969 @ 28 March 2004 - 05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-evildon@28 March 2004 - 06:42
My mom died Friday...
oh shit man that's awful. Was it sudden or did everyone know it was coming? Hang in there man.
G
BKK [/b][/quote]
thanks..she had a stroke...well several actually....
Just got back from the funeral last night..had to go up to indiana...(USA) for those across the ponds...
I am doing ok..at least that is what i have been tellin everyone
evildon
04-03-2004, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Peabody+28 March 2004 - 12:03--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr. Peabody @ 28 March 2004 - 12:03)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-evildon@28 March 2004 - 05:42
My mom died Friday...
Sorry about that.
I often ponder of the thought of what happens to us when we die,I read some other posts.
I was outside putting away a few brews,talking to my friend.
Somehow after looking up to the stars we started thinking about the Universe and when it started.Wondering when it started,how it started,maybe it was a new Universe-there being a previouse Universe.
Welll after thinking about it for awhile,I still was at a lost.
I think when it comes down to it ,somethings weren't meant to be understood.
So I think death isn't an end to life,just a different stage. [/b][/quote]
I believe some things CAN"T be understood..well not until we acheive some form of higher enlightenment as a specsis(sp).....and evolve more...
thank u for you message
evildon
04-03-2004, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by TheCanuk+3 April 2004 - 01:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheCanuk @ 3 April 2004 - 01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-evildon@28 March 2004 - 05:42
My mom died Friday...
well, at least we know she went to a better place.
one that isnt cruewl like this world we live in.
i was reading some of your opinions and there pretty deep.
nice to know theres still people with a little culture in the world. [/b][/quote]
I dont know if she went to another place but at least she isnt suffering anymore...cause she was in really bad shape...
thanks for the compliment on my posts...I have alot of friends and we talk deep crap all the time so I hafta try to keep up...
I try to read alot and try to stay exposed to different veiws...even ones i dont share or believe....
I will always remember her as a sweet caring woman who always tried....she failed sometimes but dont we all?
bujub22
04-03-2004, 11:42 PM
the worms rape your corpse ;)
Smith
04-03-2004, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by bujub22@3 April 2004 - 23:42
the worms rape your corpse ;)
fucking idiot :angry:
i personally believe when u die, you wake up as a baby being born, with no memory of past lifes.
but when u get dreams that u dont understand they are memorys of past lifes.
slaverunner_2002
04-04-2004, 09:39 PM
[B][FONT=Times][I][COLOR=red]
Dude, I imagine I will piss on your grave, providing the city pays for one for you...if not, you will be a meal for hungry prowling animals, after you leave behind a stench that is both foul and unforgettable.
My advice, get a life and enjoy it while you got it, moron
slaverunner_2002
04-04-2004, 09:44 PM
BTW, for the dude who's mom died, I am sorry for your loss, my friend, and I believe shes in a better place, man. Hang in...need to talk, we're here.
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