Peace Offer From Bin Laden

[ilw]

Two Arab TV channels have broadcast an audiotape said to be from Osama Bin Laden in which he offers Europe a truce if it "stops attacking Muslims".
The initiative itself would begin when "the last soldier" leaves "our countries", it added.
...
However, Spain, Britain, Germany and the European Commission have all rejected such a move, with EC President Romano Prodi saying there was "no possibility for negotiation under [a] terrorist threat".
...
It may also be attempting to exploit divisions between European nations and the US and drive a wedge between both sides at a time when tensions on both issues are very high, our correspondent says.



At first i thought this was quite an intelligent and creative move by OBL, but the more i think about it the more pointless it seems. I wonder what they're trying to achieve with this, since clearly no one in europe would take it seriously, perhaps they are trying to appear like the reasonable and rational 'side'?
I included the full text translation below some parts of it are imo quite well written, but then there are a bunch of patronising bits which are just bollocks.







The following is the text of the tape as broadcast by al-Arabiya:

Praise be to Almighty God; Peace and prayers be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and companions.

This is a message to our neighbours north of the Mediterranean, containing a reconciliation initiative as a response to their positive reactions.
Praise be to God; praise be to God; praise be to God who created heaven and earth with justice and who allowed the oppressed to punish the oppressor in the same way.
Peace upon those who followed the right path:

In my hands there is a message to remind you that justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them.
The greatest rule of safety is justice, and stopping injustice and aggression. It was said: Oppression kills the oppressors and the hotbed of injustice is evil. The situation in occupied Palestine is an example. What happened on 11 September [2001] and 11 March [the Madrid train bombings] is your commodity that was returned to you.

It is known that security is a pressing necessity for all mankind. We do not agree that you should monopolise it only for yourselves. Also, vigilant people do not allow their politicians to tamper with their security.

Having said this, we would like to inform you that labelling us and our acts as terrorism is also a description of you and of your acts. Reaction comes at the same level as the original action. Our acts are reaction to your own acts, which are represented by the destruction and killing of our kinfolk in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.

The act that horrified the world; that is, the killing of the old, handicapped [Hamas spiritual leader] Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, may God have mercy on him, is sufficient evidence.

We pledge to God that we will punish America for him, God willing.

Which religion considers your killed ones innocent and our killed ones worthless? And which principle considers your blood real blood and our blood water? Reciprocal treatment is fair and the one who starts injustice bears greater blame.


As for your politicians and those who have followed their path, who insist on ignoring the real problem of occupying the entirety of Palestine and exaggerate lies and falsification regarding our right in defence and resistance, they do not respect themselves.

They also disdain the blood and minds of peoples. This is because their falsification increases the shedding of your blood instead of sparing it.

Moreover, the examining of the developments that have been taking place, in terms of killings in our countries and your countries, will make clear an important fact; namely, that injustice is inflicted on us and on you by your politicians, who send your sons - although you are opposed to this - to our countries to kill and be killed.

Therefore, it is in both sides' interest to curb the plans of those who shed the blood of peoples for their narrow personal interest and subservience to the White House gang.



We must take into consideration that this war brings billions of dollars in profit to the major companies, whether it be those that produce weapons or those that contribute to reconstruction, such as the Halliburton Company, its sisters and daughters.

Based on this, it is very clear who is the one benefiting from igniting this war and from the shedding of blood. It is the warlords, the bloodsuckers, who are steering the world policy from behind a curtain.

As for President Bush, the leaders who are revolving in his orbit, the leading media companies and the United Nations, which makes laws for relations between the masters of veto and the slaves of the General Assembly, these are only some of the tools used to deceive and exploit peoples.

All these pose a fatal threat to the whole world.

The Zionist lobby is one of the most dangerous and most difficult figures of this group. God willing, we are determined to fight them.

Based on the above, and in order to deny war merchants a chance and in response to the positive interaction shown by recent events and opinion polls, which indicate that most European peoples want peace, I ask honest people, especially ulema, preachers and merchants, to form a permanent committee to enlighten European peoples of the justice of our causes, above all Palestine. They can make use of the huge potential of the media.



I also offer a reconciliation initiative to them, whose essence is our commitment to stopping operations against every country that commits itself to not attacking Muslims or interfering in their affairs - including the US conspiracy on the greater Muslim world.

This reconciliation can be renewed once the period signed by the first government expires and a second government is formed with the consent of both parties.

The reconciliation will start with the departure of its last soldier from our country.

The door of reconciliation is open for three months of the date of announcing this statement.

For those who reject reconciliation and want war, we are ready.

As for those who want reconciliation, we have given them a chance. Stop shedding our blood so as to preserve your blood. It is in your hands to apply this easy, yet difficult, formula. You know that the situation will expand and increase if you delay things.

If this happens, do not blame us - blame yourselves.

A rational person does not relinquish his security, money and children to please the liar of the White House.

Had he been truthful about his claim for peace, he would not describe the person who ripped open pregnant women in Sabra and Shatila [reference to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon] and the destroyer of the capitulation process [reference to the Palestinian-Israeli peace process] as a man of peace.


He also would not have lied to people and said that we hate freedom and kill for the sake of killing. Reality proves our truthfulness and his lie.

The killing of the Russians was after their invasion of Afghanistan and Chechnya; the killing of Europeans was after their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan; and the killing of Americans on the day of New York [reference to 11 September] was after their support of the Jews in Palestine and their invasion of the Arabian Peninsula.

Also, killing them in Somalia was after their invasion of it in Operation Restore Hope. We made them leave without hope, praise be to God.

It is said that prevention is better than cure. A happy person is he who learns a lesson from the experience of others.

Heeding right is better than persisting in falsehood.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

[Aaron_T]

no way :o

im glad this move wasnt even considered :)

[fred devliegher]

Wait - we can't pull our troops out, there are no Belgians in Iraq.

Great. Screwed no matter what. <_<

[bujub22]

Image Resized
[img]http://www.compukid.com/wtc/911-2.jpg' width='200' height='120' border='0' alt='click for full size view'> ('http://www.compukid.com/wtc/911-2.jpg')

no peace :angry:

[SeK612]

Possibly it was to create a division between Europe and the U.S or expand on the rifts that are already present. Maybe to refine the point that the U.S are the main target of these terroists and they feel that Europe has been caught in between.

As said all countries have refused. Italy have said they&#39;re still keeping troops in even after killing of one Italian hostage. Spain restated they will pull out if there is no intervention by the U.N.

[Busyman]

That "offer" sounded almost like a hostage letter.

[Biggles]

The "offer" is interesting.

It could just be a bit rhetoric to remind us he is there.

It could be because he has people in place to attack and knowing that all the Governments will refuse this offer be able to say "we offered you peace your Governments chose war - change your Governments and I will reconsider"

AQ&#39;s activity is broad, it covers the pyschological as well as the banality of death and destruction. This is a war for hearts and minds although not particularly for our "infidel" hearts and minds. This is about the direction of the Islamic world and who will lead it into the 21st century. It is a war, however, being played out on the world stage because these days everything is connected.

[Rat Faced]

We need Dirk Gently on the case then ;)

[Biggles]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@15 April 2004 - 21:11
We need Dirk Gently on the case then ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thor would no doubt complicate the matter though.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Biggles+15 April 2004 - 22:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Biggles @ 15 April 2004 - 22:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@15 April 2004 - 21:11
We need Dirk Gently on the case then ;)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thor would no doubt complicate the matter though. [/b][/quote]
Not as much as Coleridge would.

[Alex H]

Originally posted by SeK612+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SeK612)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Possibly it was to create a division between Europe and the U.S or expand on the rifts that are already present. Maybe to refine the point that the U.S are the main target of these terroists and they feel that Europe has been caught in between.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Biggles
It could be because he has people in place to attack and knowing that all the Governments will refuse this offer be able to say "we offered you peace your Governments chose war - change your Governments and I will reconsider"[/quote]

Maybe he is wondering if he&#39;s bitten off more than he can chew and wants to concentrate on the US.

Its interesting to note that while the Western governments call him a terrorist, he acts like a Warrior-King. You can tell he is smart and very much in control of his army. Personally, I don&#39;t think that letter sounds like a ransom demand, but an actual peace offer.


The killing of the Russians was after their invasion of Afghanistan and Chechnya; the killing of Europeans was after their invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan; and the killing of Americans on the day of New York [reference to 11 September] was after their support of the Jews in Palestine and their invasion of the Arabian Peninsula.

Also, killing them in Somalia was after their invasion of it in Operation Restore Hope.
It&#39;s interesting that if you want to fight, you have to have a flag to wave, otherwise you are called a terrorist. War, waged by Western countries or Islamic militants is still wrong though, and I&#39;m not impressed by either&#39;s actions.


A rational person does not relinquish his security, money and children to please the liar of the White House.

I&#39;ll agree with him on that one though.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Alex H@16 April 2004 - 02:13
Personally, I don&#39;t think that letter sounds like a ransom demand, but an actual peace offer.


That is the most laughably naive post I have ever read.

He is not out for peace, how could anyone think this, anyone, under any circumstance.

I normally would not put this World News but

http://www.rasta-man.co.uk/images/doh.gif

Oust your governments, remove troops from our soil, kill the Jews... then we will play nice. Holy shit Alex, holy shit&#33;

[Alex H]

Um, why is that naive? Before 9/11 he said he was going to attack the US. He did. He said he was going to attack US allies. He did. Now he says he wants peace. Going by his previous track record he means what he says. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll all have lots of great reasons why this is not true, but just because someone is a bastard doesn&#39;t necessarily mean they are a lying bastard.

The Europeans are going to back the US and won&#39;t take up the offer so we&#39;ll never know if he&#39;s serious.

He does actually have a goal you know, and it&#39;s not just continual slaughter. He wants to make sure that Muslims won&#39;t be pushed around and shows it by fighting back against people who repress them directly or help others who are.

Maybe he is satisfied that his enemies have spent trillions of dollars trying to find a one guy in a cave. Thats a pretty good achievment, if you consider a body count isn&#39;t the only way to hurt your enemy.

[hobbes]

Are you kidding me? His motivation is based on religion, his views are absolute.

You have let your agenda against the American government blind your judgement, you are absolutely lost, absolutely.

Declaring pain against an enemy is obvious, suggesting "peace" when nothing has changed is a political tactic.

Explain to me how the US is attacking a religion since we have many Islamic people in the US practicing their religion freely.

This has nothing to do with religion to people in the US, nothing. Bin Laden is using the religion card to help garner support.

I work with Muslims, I talk to them daily, this has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with an attack on a religion.

The man is a rich, crazy mother fucker.

[Alex H]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 April 2004 - 02:51
Are you kidding me? His motivation is based on religion, his views are absolute.

You have let your agenda against the American government blind your judgement, you are absolutely lost, absolutely.
You have let your agenda against bin Laden blind your judgement.

At least you know where you stand with a religious opponent. Their views don&#39;t change much, unlike elected governments who will put as much spin as they can on anything that will make them look good.

Remember that the vast majority of the media is Western values orientated, and whether it is deliberate or simply implied, according to the western newspapers and TV, Osama bin Laden is bad.


Declaring pain against an enemy is obvious, suggesting "peace" when nothing has changed is a political tactic.

So how do wars end then? Wars are all the same: Two guys, usually sitting in expensive chairs, decide they don&#39;t like each other so lots of young men and women kill each other until...what? Diplomacy and politics take over and the situation is diffused.

Accept for a moment the idea that Osama thinks of himself as a leader and protector of Muslims. Also accept that he is intelligent. Now as George W Shrub has shown us, going to war is generally bad for your people. Seriously, are Americans better off now than before the War on Terror? It has drained so many resources away from important things (like schools, hospitals, health care, etc) and what do you get out of it for the country? A vague promise that your country is more secure?

We can see from Hitler&#39;s example that taking on too many opponents and fight your war on many fronts. Peace with the EU would allow bin Laden to concentrate on the US and specific allies like the UK and Australia. He&#39;s not dumb remember: he eluded the entire coalition force in Afganistan and still has an army (that was responsible for Madrid)

Ok, you&#39;re willing to accept western propaganda, but don&#39;t call me blind for trying to look at both sides of the story.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H @ 15 April 2004 &#045; 22:36
Um, why is that naive? Before 9/11 he said he was going to attack the US. He did. He said he was going to attack US allies. He did. Now he says he wants peace. Going by his previous track record he means what he says. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll all have lots of great reasons why this is not true, but just because someone is a bastard doesn&#39;t necessarily mean they are a lying bastard.

The Europeans are going to back the US and won&#39;t take up the offer so we&#39;ll never know if he&#39;s serious.

He does actually have a goal you know, and it&#39;s not just continual slaughter. He wants to make sure that Muslims won&#39;t be pushed around and shows it by fighting back against people who repress them directly or help others who are.

Maybe he is satisfied that his enemies have spent trillions of dollars trying to find a one guy in a cave. Thats a pretty good achievment, if you consider a body count isn&#39;t the only way to hurt your enemy.

Oh god you are more screwed than I previously thought.

hobbes took some of the words right out my mouth.


You actually believe that this guy fights for MUSLIMS? :lol: :lol:


If anything OBL has made the stereotype of Muslims worse....
....therefore helping create unwarranted persecution for Muslims.

OBL is creating this catch-22.

He blows up the WTC in the name of Islam.
Then asks ALL Muslims to rise up against "oppressive America".

A Muslim indifferent to the situation just might be treated badly due to OBL&#39;s actions, not the other way around...ya think?
...........but I guess all of OBL&#39;s actions are just so dandy for the Islamic religion.

This reminds me Hitler and some white supremacists in general. They believe that once they rid world of everyone but their race that there will be this "heaven on earth".
If these people realized, they will fight amongst their own race because evil is evil whether you are black, white, American, Muslim, or European. There will always be someone who is bloodthirsty for power.

It&#39;s easier to unite when unite for or against something. OBL is using Islamic freedom to unite people for a war.

I see in Alex H&#39;s case that it works for non-Muslims too. :lol: :lol:

[Alex H]

Originally posted by AlexH
Ok, you&#39;re willing to accept western propaganda, but don&#39;t call me blind for trying to look at both sides of the story.

I didn&#39;t say I agreed with him dickhead.

And yes I believe the guy thinks he fights for Muslims. Thats what he believes, so that explains why he does what he does.

[Busyman]

Well my post was written, not posted, before your "great explanation".

You sure did clear things up. :lol:


Originally posted by Alex H
Um, why is that naive? Before 9/11 he said he was going to attack the US. He did. He said he was going to attack US allies. He did. Now he says he wants peace. Going by his previous track record he means what he says. I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll all have lots of great reasons why this is not true, but just because someone is a bastard doesn&#39;t necessarily mean they are a lying bastard.

"Oh and just because he murders innocents doesn&#39;t mean he lies tooooooo"
:lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol:

[Alex H]

What exactly has he lied about?

And how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by US soldiers? Innocent people get killed in wars. That is the nature of war: people die.

[Busyman]

Accept for a moment the idea that Osama thinks of himself as a leader and protector of Muslims. Also accept that he is intelligent. Now as George W Shrub has shown us, going to war is generally bad for your people. Seriously, are Americans better off now than before the War on Terror? It has drained so many resources away from important things (like schools, hospitals, health care, etc) and what do you get out of it for the country? A vague promise that your country is more secure?



I guess the US should sit down and wait for an attack. Idiot, terrorists will blow up your school, your hospitals, and where would you go for health care.
I don&#39;t support Bush in regards to Iraq but I do regarding OBL (for the most part I don&#39;t like Bush though).

You sound like a rollover queen. You are dirt under a bulldozer.
"If we lay down, he&#39;ll stop hurting us". <_<

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H@16 April 2004 - 00:24
What exactly has he lied about?

And how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by US soldiers? Innocent people get killed in wars. That is the nature of war: people die.
That&#39;s not the point.

You believe he wouldn&#39;t lie because he hasn&#39;t lied about killing innocents.
"Awww man, when Osama says he wants peace, he must reeeeallly mean it then"

Ever heard the saying," Ya can&#39;t trust a crook"? Obviously not because this is a terrorist and he&#39;s obviously earned your respect. <_< I will never "respect" a person that targets babies because they were born here.

Oh and to address you edit...
How do you know they were inncoent?

ex. There have been pregnant suicide bombers.
If an American shot this person running past a checkpoint the Arab media would cry foul.
Al-Jazeera and the like have their spin-doctors too.
If believe the Western media spins everything and the Arab media does not then again, you are more screwed than I thought.

Do you think American soldiers just go through Iraqi towns and purposely shoot them in the back? Don&#39;t get me wrong, I&#39;m sure there are nutjob soldiers in ANY army but use YOUR DAMN BRAIN MAN&#33;&#33;&#33;

All Americans are not automatons like you.

[Alex H]

You know what the chances of being hurt or killed by a terrorist in the US in 2000? Zero.
The chances of being hurt or killed in 2002? Zero.
2001? Blip on the statistical radar. Shit happens.

Are you seriously suggesing that you can take &#036;400 billion out of your budget to spend on defence (letting your schools falls to bits) on the chance that a terrorist might blow a few dozen people up? Its not like you would be fighting a pitched battle on the streets for months or years.

And it&#39;s not like ALL your schools, colleges, hospitals etc would get blown up all at the same time. Maybe one here or there. If you were unlucky.

I can tell you something that will definatly happen: take money away from health and education and there [B]will[B] be effects.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H+16 April 2004 - 00:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H &#064; 16 April 2004 - 00:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You know what the chances of being hurt or killed by a terrorist in the US in 2000? Zero.
The chances of being hurt or killed in 2002? Zero.
2001? Blip on the statistical radar. Shit happens.

Are you seriously suggesing that you can take &#036;400 billion out of your budget to spend on defence (letting your schools falls to bits) on the chance that a terrorist might blow a few dozen people up? Its not like you would be fighting a pitched battle on the streets for months or years.

And it&#39;s not like ALL your schools, colleges, hospitals etc would get blown up all at the same time. Maybe one here or there. If you were unlucky.

I can tell you something that will definatly happen: take money away from health and education and there will[B] be effects.
You know the chance of hijackers flying a plane into the World Trade Center?
You know the chance of a saran gas attack in a crowded subway tunnel?
You know the chance of a gas attack in a New York tunnel?


Originally posted by Alex H@
And it&#39;s not like ALL your schools, colleges, hospitals etc would get blown up all at the same time. Maybe one here or there.

Ohhh that&#39;s all?&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Man what was I thinking? :blink:

<!--QuoteBegin-Alex H
I can tell you something that will definatly happen: take money away from health and education and there will be effects[/quote]

And ya know what? When I spray my car with water, mark my words, it has an "effect" on the dirt stuck to it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sh....Sh.....STFU&#33;&#33;&#33; You are cracking me the fuck up ova here&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually don&#39;t STFU&#33;&#33;&#33; Please keep goin&#39; for a wee bit fun mate. :D

[Alex H]

Originally posted by Busyman+16 April 2004 - 04:43--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 16 April 2004 - 04:43)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Ever heard the saying," Ya can&#39;t trust a crook"? Obviously not because this is a terrorist and he&#39;s obviously earned your respect. <_< I will never "respect" a person that targets babies because they were born here.

Oh and to address you edit...
How do you know they were inncoent?

ex. There have been pregnant suicide bombers.
If an American shot this person running past a checkpoint the Arab media would cry foul.
Al-Jazeera and the like have their spin-doctors too.
If believe the Western media spins everything and the Arab media does not then again, you are more screwed than I thought.

Do you think American soldiers just go through Iraqi towns and purposely shoot them in the back? Don&#39;t get me wrong, I&#39;m sure there are nutjob soldiers in ANY army but use YOUR DAMN BRAIN MAN&#33;&#33;&#33;

All Americans are not automatons like you. [/b]


Originally posted by Alex H+16 April 2004 - 00:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H &#064; 16 April 2004 - 00:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What exactly has he lied about?

And how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by US soldiers? Innocent people get killed in wars. That is the nature of war: people die.
That&#39;s not the point.

You believe he wouldn&#39;t lie because he hasn&#39;t lied about killing innocents.
"Awww man, when Osama says he wants peace, he must reeeeallly mean it then"[/b]

I don&#39;t know about your point. My point was: What reason do you have for not believing the peace offer is real?


Originally posted by Busyman
Ever heard the saying," Ya can&#39;t trust a crook"? Obviously not because this is a terrorist and he&#39;s obviously earned your respect.

Define "crook".


Originally posted by Busyman
How do you know they were inncoent?

How do youknow the 3000 odd people killed on 9/11 were "innocent". What is innocence? If you kill someone in self defence (as a f*cking example, not in reference to specific people) are you innocent? If you run a company that pollutes the environment are you innocent? If you know that the guy down the street bashes his wife and you do nothing about it, are you innocent?

bin Laden killed 3000 people that day, and he is guilty of that, but don&#39;t make assumptions of the morality of the people who died. Who knows, maybe one of them was planning a mass fraud that would have ruined the lives of millions of people. Don&#39;t just say they were innocent, because nobody is. They didn&#39;t deserve to die that day though.

<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@
Al-Jazeera and the like have their spin-doctors too.
If believe the Western media spins everything and the Arab media does not then again, you are more screwed than I thought.[/quote]

Al-Jazeera is practically the ONLY Arab news network, and the US media kickied up a HUGE stink when they started broadcasting. Perhaps it was because there was suddenly an ARAB propaganda machine to challenge their own?

<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman
Do you think American soldiers just go through Iraqi towns and purposely shoot them in the back? [/quote]

No, I don&#39;t. But how the American military can spend millions of dollars on "precision" bombs that go off target and crash into civilian areas does require some explaination. The numbr of "friendly-fire" incidents is another example. "Whoops. Oh well, they weren&#39;t our boys.


All Americans are not automatons like you.

:lol: Really?

[Alex H]

Originally posted by Alex H+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I can tell you something that will definatly happen: take money away from health and education and there will be effects



<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman
And ya know what? When I spray my car with water, mark my words, it has an "effect" on the dirt stuck to it.&nbsp; [/b][/quote]

Thats my point. Why would you take away so much money that can help the society you live in to decrease the already miniscule chance of a terrorist attack?

What do you think will happen in 20 years time when all the kids who got a poor education in schools with shitty facilities grow up and find that there were no new doctors trained to look after them, and they have virtually no chance of ever getting social security, and there are no drug-rehab centers or councelling services to help them get their shit together?

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H+16 April 2004 - 01:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H @ 16 April 2004 - 01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Busyman+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Ever heard the saying," Ya can&#39;t trust a crook"? Obviously not because this is a terrorist and he&#39;s obviously earned your respect.[/b]

Define "crook".


Originally posted by Busyman
How do you know they were inncoent?

How do youknow the 3000 odd people killed on 9/11 were "innocent". What is innocence? If you kill someone in self defence (as a f*cking example, not in reference to specific people) are you innocent? If you run a company that pollutes the environment are you innocent? If you know that the guy down the street bashes his wife and you do nothing about it, are you innocent?

bin Laden killed 3000 people that day, and he is guilty of that, but don&#39;t make assumptions of the morality of the people who died. Who knows, maybe one of them was planning a mass fraud that would have ruined the lives of millions of people. Don&#39;t just say they were innocent, because nobody is. They didn&#39;t deserve to die that day though.


Originally posted by Busyman
Al-Jazeera and the like have their spin-doctors too.
If believe the Western media spins everything and the Arab media does not then again, you are more screwed than I thought.

Al-Jazeera is practically the ONLY Arab news network, and the US media kickied up a HUGE stink when they started broadcasting. Perhaps it was because there was suddenly an ARAB propaganda machine to challenge their own?

<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@
Do you think American soldiers just go through Iraqi towns and purposely shoot them in the back?

No, I don&#39;t. But how the American military can spend millions of dollars on "precision" bombs that go off target and crash into civilian areas does require some explaination. The numbr of "friendly-fire" incidents is another example. "Whoops. Oh well, they weren&#39;t our boys.


All Americans are not automatons like you.

:lol: Really? [/b][/quote]
Alex H I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your fortitude in keeping up these posts.
They are a hoot and a holler&#33;&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol:


Now regarding the 3000 innocent rant.....

OBL targeted babies. Nuff sai...actually not. That was an idiotic post. It almost had a point. <_< I think that point was "You did something wrong in your lifetime, so die"
Ya gotta love the back up to save face...<!--QuoteBegin-Alex H
They didn&#39;t deserve to die that day though.[/quote]
Nice goin&#39; ;)


Regarding friendly fire.....

American soldiers have killed........American soldiers. That&#39;s a nice spin by trying to make ALL friendly-fire incidents....non American. Do you work for Al-Jazeera? Is your other name "Peace"? :lol: :lol:

[Alex H]

No, I couldn&#39;t spell that badly if I tried. :lol:

[Alex H]

Originally posted by Busyman+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think that point was "You did something wrong in your lifetime, so die"
Ya gotta love the back up to save face...
<!--QuoteBegin-Alex H)

They didn&#39;t deserve to die that day though.


Nice goin&#39; [/b][/quote]

That wasn&#39;t a "back up". That was an actual point about why a non-combatant should not simply be called an "innocent". It doesn&#39;t mean "You did something wrong in your lifetime, so die", it means that living in a universe full of completely random events, one has to accept the fact that people die before old age. I also don&#39;t think that "natural causes" is a good description of death. Being hit my a car and having your skull cracked open is not a usual way to die, but in nature a massive blow to the head will cause death. Falling off a cliff is a "natural" way to die too, in that gravity is a natural force which you have to deal with in life.


Regarding friendly fire.....

American soldiers have killed........American soldiers. That&#39;s a nice spin by trying to make ALL friendly-fire incidents....non American.

My point on that (and you&#39;re calling me stupid?) was again that shit happens. Sure, bin Laden bombed the WTC and killed people. America invaded Iraq and killed people. Not the same thing, but the same result.

The difference is that Osama bin Laden can do it really cheaply, whereas the US spends billions of dollars and still kills the wrong people.

And that is money that could be much better spent elsewhere.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H+16 April 2004 - 02:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Alex H @ 16 April 2004 - 02:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Busyman@
I think that point was "You did something wrong in your lifetime, so die"
Ya gotta love the back up to save face...
<!--QuoteBegin-Alex H)

They didn&#39;t deserve to die that day though.


Nice goin&#39;

That wasn&#39;t a "back up". That was an actual point about why a non-combatant should not simply be called an "innocent". It doesn&#39;t mean "You did something wrong in your lifetime, so die", it means that living in a universe full of completely random events, one has to accept the fact that people die before old age. I also don&#39;t think that "natural causes" is a good description of death. Being hit my a car and having your skull cracked open is not a usual way to die, but in nature a massive blow to the head will cause death. Falling off a cliff is a "natural" way to die too, in that gravity is a natural force which you have to deal with in life.


Regarding friendly fire.....

American soldiers have killed........American soldiers. That&#39;s a nice spin by trying to make ALL friendly-fire incidents....non American.

My point on that (and you&#39;re calling me stupid?) was again that shit happens. Sure, bin Laden bombed the WTC and killed people. America invaded Iraq and killed people. Not the same thing, but the same result.

The difference is that Osama bin Laden can do it really cheaply, whereas the US spends billions of dollars and still kills the wrong people.

And that is money that could be much better spent elsewhere. [/b][/quote]
Let me sum up your post.

Shit happens, people die.

OBL is a more efficient killer.


Great points once again.

You should be commended.


Keep it comin&#39;. You&#39;re on a roll.

[MalaDzen]

Hey, guys

From a muslim persons perspective, I believe that he is fighting against the oppression of muslim people and for Islam. Ofcourse i do not condone his actions and the way he is going about fighting his war against the suppression of the Islamic faith by Western world is not the right way.

I come from a country where there was ethnic cleansing of muslims and many members in my community feel that we have been victims of suppression of the muslim people. And just like the palestinians and the cheychens we were up against a force stronger and more armed than ourselves and yet nothing was done to stop the killing of my people.

What I dont understand is, when a Palestinian &#39;terrorist&#39; attacks the jewish people we call out "terrorist attack" but when the israeli army uses Guns and bombs to kill Palestinian civilians and to drive out these people from their homes, no one says a thing. It is just allowed to go on endlessly, whilst American keep supplying Israel with military supplies so they can continue their killing of the Palestinian people.

Basically in my view this has happened in many places where muslims have been attacked and it has simply been ignored by the rest of the world. If I had been driven out of my home and my people were being killed everyday, and no one was listening to my cries for help, F*ck I might even consider blowing myself up.

Now I know im gonna get my ass whipped for writting this

But im not saying Osama Bin Laden is doing the right thing in killing innocent people, remember that he has also killed many muslims in the name of Allah.. but he may possibly be serious about this peace offer, if muslims are allowed to live in peace around the world, and their pleas for help are heard

May allah(swt) lead all of the muslims of this world on the right path.

[ilw]

I think most people here have credited OBL with having at least a fair bit of intelligence, which is why this initiative imo is clearly not a serious peace offer. Is there anyone who seriously thought for a second that any European leaders would actually accept such an offer? Obviously none of them would and I reckon OBL knows this just as well as we do. The more i think about it the more the tape seems like just another &#39;threat&#39; about getting troops out of muslim countries, dressed up as something much more likely to draw media interest and perhaps even a bit of (very very weak) psychological warfare.

Personally i thought the most intelligent line in the entire thing was

It is known that security is a pressing necessity for all mankind. We do not agree that you should monopolise it only for yourselves.

Probably just because it made me think about the situation from a slightly different perspective, ie that we&#39;re increasing our security at the expense of other people&#39;s, which although a long established practice, leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by MalaDzen@16 April 2004 - 09:10
Hey, guys

From a muslim persons perspective, I believe that he is fighting against the oppression of muslim people and for Islam. Ofcourse i do not condone his actions and the way he is going about fighting his war against the suppression of the Islamic faith by Western world is not the right way.

I come from a country where there was ethnic cleansing of muslims and many members in my community feel that we have been victims of suppression of the muslim people. And just like the palestinians and the cheychens we were up against a force stronger and more armed than ourselves and yet nothing was done to stop the killing of my people.

What I dont understand is, when a Palestinian &#39;terrorist&#39; attacks the jewish people we call out "terrorist attack" but when the israeli army uses Guns and bombs to kill Palestinian civilians and to drive out these people from their homes, no one says a thing. It is just allowed to go on endlessly, whilst American keep supplying Israel with military supplies so they can continue their killing of the Palestinian people.

Basically in my view this has happened in many places where muslims have been attacked and it has simply been ignored by the rest of the world. If I had been driven out of my home and my people were being killed everyday, and no one was listening to my cries for help, F*ck I might even consider blowing myself up.

Now I know im gonna get my ass whipped for writting this

But im not saying Osama Bin Laden is doing the right thing in killing innocent people, remember that he has also killed many muslims in the name of Allah.. but he may possibly be serious about this peace offer, if muslims are allowed to live in peace around the world, and their pleas for help are heard

May allah(swt) lead all of the muslims of this world on the right path.
If this was just about oppression of Muslims then where is this in America?

It seems more like a land issue to me with two nations predominately made up of differing religions.

If I shoot you, it doesn&#39;t necessarily mean I shot you because you Muslim. <_<

America primarily is in this due to being powerful and supporting an enemy of Palestine.

As I said if OBL wanted to galvanized Muslims against America it sure has worked.

I&#39;ll never respect or admire OBL and the like for they target innocents to get their point across.

They are too stupid too realize that the only thing it does is galvanize us to wipe him out.

[hobbes]

Alex H,



Sorry no chance to read the exchange between you and busybody, but I base my impression of Bin Laden on 9/11, but apparently that was just a western media event used to brainwash me against him, eh?

My blind agenda is to be a little dubious about a peace offer from the author behind 9/11 and other attacks. Yep, good call.

Maybe it is time to understand that I have access to every single media source you do via the web. The brainwashing of America by the media is becoming a little trite. I can give you a link to the Beeb if you need it. And the Hitler comment, no politically correct post in World News would be complete without it. Chapeau&#33;

Get a clue man, anyone who plans such an event is suspect to say the least when he offers a "peace" plan.

You failed to explain how Islam can be freely practiced in the US without problem, but for some reason the US is attacking Islam. Religion is the ploy to help unify people who would otherwise be fighting amongst themselves.

Look at good old Iraq. Once you eliminate the tyrant, the citizens have nothing to be unified under. In fact, they now realise that they don&#39;t like one another and racial and ethinic divisions are being drawn. They don&#39;t want to live and work together, they want to kill each other.

[MalaDzen]

YES IT is usually a land issue, but the point is that those who are killing the muslims over land issues ARE NOT being stopped &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; THAT IS THE ISSUE

When was the last time anyone heard anything about the Cheychen war?? IT has been conveniently swept under the rug whilst those people are still being killed and controlled by the Russian army. Why doesnt anyone aid them...WHY..because America, or any other Western country for that matter will not gain any benefits from it...

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by hobbes@16 April 2004 - 14:25


Look at good old Iraq. Once you eliminate the tyrant, the citizens have nothing to be unified under. In fact, they now realise that they don&#39;t like one another and racial and ethinic divisions are being drawn. They don&#39;t want to live and work together, they want to kill each other.
They havent "Just Realised" anything...

I told (http://filesharingtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=20832&st=60&#entry143320) you last year the only options for Iraq.

Nothing i have seen in the last 13 months has changed my opinion on them :P

[ilw]

lol, why are so many of the posts from ages ago screwed up? Oh and I just noticed that you can read the messed up post(s) if you quote it

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

It&#39;s laughable that Al-Quada thinks they can cohersed Europeans into cease and desist by a few kidnapping, Europe knows all to well the Scourage of terrorism and it hollow promises. Terrorists have no honor and can&#39;t be appeased that is demonstrated with the Muslim extremists latest weapon, children suicide bombers. Al-Quada doesn&#39;t speak for all terrorists and is not the authority controling all terrorism that&#39;s giving far to much credit that they are not due.

[fred devliegher]

Europe knows all to well the Scourage of terrorism and it hollow promises.

A lot of papers over here have been making comparisons with the early-20th C bombing campaign by the Anarchists. They, too, were part of a belittled and mistreated group of people of which a few stepped up and tried to press their point with violence.

There were two ways of dealing with the situation : hunt down the bombers and end the campaign with force, or change the situation of the working class by improving their condition and giving them the rights they deserved.

Point of the story : fighting the war on terror is fighting the symptoms. Fight the cause - the inequality in the world, imperialism, the way we look down on the Islamic world - and the terror will lose it&#39;s feeding ground.

This is a lost battle - for it can only be won by helping the "enemy" *.

* not that the Islam is the enemy, of course. Just using the simplified view of you-know-who.

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Originally posted by fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:32

Europe knows all to well the Scourage of terrorism and it hollow promises.

A lot of papers over here have been making comparisons with the early-20th C bombing campaign by the Anarchists. They, too, were part of a belittled and mistreated group of people of which a few stepped up and tried to press their point with violence.

There were two ways of dealing with the situation : hunt down the bombers and end the campaign with force, or change the situation of the working class by improving their situation and giving them the rights they deserved.

Point of the story : fighting the war on terror is fighting the symptoms. Fight the cause - the inequality in the world, imperialism, the way we look down on the Islamic world - and the terror will lose it&#39;s feeding ground.

This is a lost battle - for it can only be won by helping the "enemy" *.

* not that the Islam is the enemy, of course. Just using the simplified view of you-know-who.
Like executing woman who refuse to wear burka&#39;s, executing alcohol drinkers and any other trivial infringement on Islamic law some "loony tune Cleric" declares. :rolleyes:

[fred devliegher]

^^ symptoms. Not cause.

Times of crisis are a feeding ground for religious extremism. Just look at the US right now.

EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Originally posted by fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:45
^^ symptoms. Not cause.

Times of crisis are a feeding ground for religious extremism. Just look at the US right now.

EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.
Your unsuccessfully rationalizing inhumane morally wrong irrational actions. :P

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Originally posted by fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:45


EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.
Your Schizophrenic ? hearing things not real ?

Well that explains your delusions :helpsmile:

[fred devliegher]

Again, no reason to shout.



Your unsuccessfully rationalizing inhumane morally wrong irrational actions.

I am seeking the root cause to deal with the problem in the fastest, most efficient way possible. Do I condone the cited examples of rampant extremism as much as you do ? Of course. Will they go away simply by applying blind force ? I guess the answer is beginning to form in a certain Gulf country - for those who wish to see it.



Your Schizophrenic ? hearing things not real ?

Well that explains your delusions

"Typing bold, coloured and at larger-then-custom size" = typed shouting. No need for that.

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Sometimes you just have to throw the insane in a padded room and help the ones that can be cured. :(

[fred devliegher]

Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@16 April 2004 - 20:09
Sometimes you just have to throw the insane in a padded room and help the ones that can be cured. :(
Only one possible reply to that :

:blink:

[yonki]

Originally posted by fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 19:32
There were two ways of dealing with the situation : hunt down the bombers and end the campaign with force, or change the situation of the working class by improving their condition and giving them the rights they deserved.
You are right harry potter. But you can hunt down the terrorists without starting a war. HELP those countries and go after the terrorists. Its so eeeasy :smilie4:

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}+16 April 2004 - 18:54--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ({SHELL%SHOCKED} &#064; 16 April 2004 - 18:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:45
^^ symptoms. Not cause.

Times of crisis are a feeding ground for religious extremism. Just look at the US right now.

EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.
Your unsuccessfully rationalizing inhumane morally wrong irrational actions. :P [/b][/quote]
Half of the problem is that you are forcing your morals on another culture.

Morals are not universal...what is moral one place isnt in another.



and please....stop shouting.

Its annoying and bad manners..

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+17 April 2004 - 00:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced &#064; 17 April 2004 - 00:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@16 April 2004 - 18:54
<!--QuoteBegin-fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:45
^^ symptoms. Not cause.

Times of crisis are a feeding ground for religious extremism. Just look at the US right now.

EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.
Your unsuccessfully rationalizing inhumane morally wrong irrational actions. :P
Half of the problem is that you are forcing your morals on another culture.

Morals are not universal...what is moral one place isnt in another.



and please....stop shouting.

Its annoying and bad manners..[/b][/quote]
I&#39;m basing the morality on the UN Charter and Geneva conventions , but I guess sub-Humans don&#39;t have the thought capacity just like any other Beast Of Burdon.

[J'Pol]

What is a "Beast of Burdon", pray tell.

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 April 2004 - 10:13
What is a "Beast of Burdon", pray tell.
Elizabeth Taylor.

[fred devliegher]

Originally posted by yonki+17 April 2004 - 00:05--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (yonki @ 17 April 2004 - 00:05)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 19:32
There were two ways of dealing with the situation : hunt down the bombers and end the campaign with force, or change the situation of the working class by improving their condition and giving them the rights they deserved.
You are right harry potter. But you can hunt down the terrorists without starting a war. HELP those countries and go after the terrorists. Its so eeeasy :smilie4: [/b][/quote]
I&#39;ll skip the Potter remark -

What is your soluton, then ? Keep fighting ? Let American soldiers die weekly until there are non left who are willing to be slaughtered ?

Please, enlighten me...


What is a "Beast of Burdon", pray tell.

I second that. And it&#39;s spelled "burden" IIRC.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}+17 April 2004 - 01:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ({SHELL%SHOCKED} &#064; 17 April 2004 - 01:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 April 2004 - 00:28

Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@16 April 2004 - 18:54
<!--QuoteBegin-fred devliegher@16 April 2004 - 18:45
^^ symptoms. Not cause.

Times of crisis are a feeding ground for religious extremism. Just look at the US right now.

EDIT : I&#39;m not blind, there&#39;s no reason to shout.
Your unsuccessfully rationalizing inhumane morally wrong irrational actions. :P
Half of the problem is that you are forcing your morals on another culture.

Morals are not universal...what is moral one place isnt in another.



and please....stop shouting.

Its annoying and bad manners..
I&#39;m basing the morality on the UN Charter and Geneva conventions , but I guess sub-Humans don&#39;t have the thought capacity just like any other Beast Of Burdon. [/b][/quote]
Strange, because the USA appears to have pulled out of both for all practical purposes.

For example the USA appears to be the only National State that has never given national legislative action for the mimimum age of marriage: thats left to individual States..contrary to UN Human Rights Conventions. (Yes I know that the individual States have, and so for all Practical purposes the Convention is fulfilled, however allow me to play "Lawyer" just this once :P )

Camp X-Ray was a clear break with the Geneva Convention.

Does this make Americans "Sub Human"? By your arguements it does...I have to disagree with you on that though...

Pallestinians havent got a nation and are not signatories of the UN or the Geneva Convention; yet Israel are.... both sides break the UN Human Rights Conventions and the Geneva Convention frequently, are they both "Sub Human"? Again i have to disagree with you.

What is moral is dependant upon "Ethics" and "Honour".. 2 words that; although having a clear meaning, depend upon the culture in which your living for that definition. An Islamic terrorist, in his eyes, is acting with honour... as is an Israeli Pilot, .... as is Castro, as is...... the list goes on.


.....as i said, stop inflicting your morals on others, as you will quickly find out that in many cases your "Morals" are the exception in some things not the norm... by your own standards that would make YOU the "immoral subhuman".



I suggest you finish Kindergarten before you take part in these debates, as they are obviously way over your head....

[jetje]

this peace offer looks a lot like a demand in a hostage situation ;)
so for that reason it&#39;s good they denied it.

Still i think that terrorism has little to do with countries and dictators running them.
The only way to take away the foodingrounds (why someone will become a terrorist, i mean) of terrorism is to divide the wealth in the world in a honest way. If all normal people could live in peace and have a good life there would be little reason to blew themselves up. Respect is a keyword in this.

I still believe if a palestinian child could get raised in a normal house and have normal education is able to play with his gameboy and play soccer without having a chance to be shot or blown up he would be pretty much happy.. wich child wouldn&#39;t? So just make sure the palestinians (and all other people in the world in similar situations) get houses decent jobs to take care of their families, and have the right to believe in whatever someone wants to believe in and to travel wherever one may go... there would be little reason to carry a bag full explosives to some place just to blow something up...

Too bad that there are almost none politicians and industrials left that knows the meaning of respect :frusty: (It&#39;s all about power and money for them...)
yes i know pretty idealistic but i really believe this is how it should work... ;)

John Lennon said once:
They may say that i&#39;m a dreamer, but i&#39;m not the only one..... (Imagine)

[fred devliegher]

Well said.

And my point exactly - take away the cause and the effect dissappears with it.

[Rat Faced]

Baghdad Burning (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_riverbendblog_archive.html#108195900197736397)

[Busyman]

Originally posted by From Baghdad Burning+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (From Baghdad Burning)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Still, when I hear talk about "anti-Americanism" it angers me. Why does American identify itself with its military and government? Why is does being anti-Bush and anti-occupation have to mean that a person is anti-American? [/b]

Excellent point&#33;&#33;&#33; It seems a number of forum members don&#39;t think that way. They insult the "American people".

<!--QuoteBegin-From Baghdad Burning
I hate American tanks in Baghdad and American soldiers on our streets and in our homes on occasion.[/quote]

I totally agree. We should not be in a country where we are not wanted even though I think most Iraqis are glad Saddam is gone.


Does America pull troops out now? Like Afghanistan?
Will a new dictator take Saddams place? Most likely.
The Iraqi people will probably unite under someone....only with disdain for America. Or they will fight amongst themselves.

btw not everyone hates America&#39;s meddling. We should have let Saddam take over Kuwait I guess. <_<

After that, I&#39;m sure he would have stopped there.

[Rat Faced]

You seem to have forgotten that the original Gulf War is the reason Saddam hated the USA so much.

He discussed it with the US Government before he went into Kuwait and they told him "We are not interested in a purely Arabian War"

...he took this as a green light, and felt that the USA response was a betrayal on what they told him beforhand..

The US may have prevented the Gulf War, with no bloodshed, much the same way Chamberlain may have been able to prevent WWII....

...cant unspill milk however :P


Even so, at the time of Kuwait BL was a US ally fighting against Iraq....so whats your point here in connection with the thread?

.... Oh, yeh...he was this time too....

My Bad :ph34r:

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 April 2004 - 18:56
You seem to have forgotten that the original Gulf War is the reason Saddam hated the USA so much.

He discussed it with the US Government before he went into Kuwait and they told him "We are not interested in a purely Arabian War"

...he took this as a green light, and felt that the USA response was a betrayal on what they told him beforhand..

The US may have prevented the Gulf War, with no bloodshed, much the same way Chamberlain may have been able to prevent WWII....

...cant unspill milk however :P


Even so, at the time of Kuwait BL was a US ally fighting against Iraq....so whats your point here in connection with the thread?

.... Oh, yeh...he was this time too....

My Bad :ph34r:
Could you give us a link to this "discussion".

So as long as people run it by the US, and we show no interest, this is equivalent to approving a war?

I thought the UN approved the first Gulf War. Was the US supposed to block it with a veto?

This makes it seeems that the US gives the nod worldwide on what people can and can&#39;t do. We should be given a title for this honor, or something.


What is an ally?

An ally is someone who does what what you tell them.
A foe does the opposite.
A friend is someone you rely on.

Whether Saddam or Bin Laden were considered allies at some time, for some reason, never makes them "friends". They were just bitches doing what we wanted. The relationship was a simple and paper thin as that.

Once they stop doing what they are told, they are the Axis of Evil, that is politics.

[fred devliegher]

What is an ally?

An ally is someone who does what what you tell them.
A foe does the opposite.
A friend is someone you rely on.

Dictionary.com on ally


&nbsp; 1.&nbsp; To place in a friendly association, as by treaty.
&nbsp; 2. To unite or connect in a personal relationship, as in friendship or marriage.


An ally is someone who shares your ideas, whom you cooperate with to achieve a common goal. You described a puppy.

And "ally" implies that there is at least a modicum of trust and mutual agreement.

[Rat Faced]

Hobbes, re-read the post.

I said "He took this to mean..."

I did not say that anyone else agreed with His thoughts...


What is an ally?

An ally is someone who does what what you tell them.


I really hope you dont mean that, you are far too intelligent to make such assumptions...

An Ally, in this case, is an organisation that was fighting alongside your own troops to defeat a common enemy.

This does not necessarily make the Ally a friend... or Russia would have been the most welcome country on the planet after WWII...

[hobbes]

What I am saying is that people are misusing the word "ally".

Bin Laden and Saddam were never more than "bitches", they were never allies.

People toss around the word ally, to create a false impression that there was some underlying friendship and trust. That was never the case, and that is my point.

Saddam and Bin Laden were never "allies", they were resources utilized to accomplish specific objectives.


Source:
Hobbesdictionary.com:


ally:

When the common foe is eliminated, an ally is someone who will not drive an icepick into your spine when your back is turned.


As for your first post Rat, it came off as reading that if the US had simply told Saddam "no", then, just like that, Kuwait would never have been invaded. Makes us sound like something a little more powerful than we are.

[Rat Faced]

Well the US administrations of the time(s) publicly called Iraq an "Ally"...

How then, do your legitimate "allies" know that they are "Allies" and not "Bitches"?







BTW:

I already know the UK government is the USA&#39;s "Bitch"...a poodle to be precise :P

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 April 2004 - 20:03
Well the US administrations of the time(s) publicly called Iraq an "Ally"...

How then, do your legitimate "allies" know that they are "Allies" and not "Bitches"?







BTW:

I already know the UK government is the USA&#39;s "Bitch"...a poodle to be precise :P
And like all good politicians, they tell the "truth". It is just PC bullshit.

Politicians speak in black and white: with us/against us.

"Temporary Bitch" is a gray term and therefore does not exist in politician speak.

How can you be an ally with someone who is oppressing and killing his own citizens on their soil. How can you be an ally with a dictator?

America stands for individual freedom and choice in government, and we can only be truly allied with like minded people. That is really the core. You can take all the cheap you want at fixed elections and so on, but you cannot deny that core nugget of truth.

An ally is someone that you would leave to babysit your child.

An ally, may not always agree with you but will not turn against you.

You are wrong about the UK, you guys may be acting as a bit of a puppet to lend credence to our war, but you are still "allies".

I think it would be incredibly difficult to convince the American people to wage war against the UK, there are simply too many bonds that link our nations.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by hobbes@17 April 2004 - 20:17

I think it would be incredibly difficult to convince the American people to wage war against the UK, there are simply too many bonds that link our nations.
Come ahead, if you think your hard enough.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 April 2004 - 13:56
Even so, at the time of Kuwait BL was a US ally fighting against Iraq....so whats your point here in connection with the thread?

.... Oh, yeh...he was this time too....

My Bad :ph34r:
Did you not post a link to Baghdad Burning?

Perhaps you should read it?

My posts are obvious responses to a link that you posted.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+17 April 2004 - 15:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 17 April 2004 - 15:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@17 April 2004 - 20:17

I think it would be incredibly difficult to convince the American people to wage war against the UK, there are simply too many bonds that link our nations.
Come ahead, if you think your hard enough. [/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol:

That war was over eons ago except is was on America soil.

Water under the bridge.

[Alex H]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Camp X-Ray was a clear break with the Geneva Convention.

Does this make Americans "Sub Human"? By your arguements it does...I have to disagree with you on that though...[/b] I hope Busyman is not typical of Americans or I may have to reserve my judgement on the "Sub-Human" debate...


Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Saddam and Bin Laden were never "allies", they were resources utilized to accomplish specific objectives.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@
How then, do your legitimate "allies" know that they are "Allies" and not "Bitches"?[/quote] Interesting question. Perhaps they could sign a "Contract to Supply the United States with Bitches"

"...392.1 - Termination of Contract.
Upon the termination of this contract (which shall be at the sole discretion of the United States) any activities performed by Bitches will thereafter be know as Terrorist Activities. Terrorist Activities may incur subsequent charges, such as: Murder, Genocide or, in the extreme, Anti-American. The United States will take no responsibility for the preperation, equipping, teaching, supplying or support of fromer Bitches, and reserves the right to convey the title "Enemies of Freedom" upon them.

(Hey, that actually sounds like something drafted by Ashcroft...)


<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
An ally is someone that you would leave to babysit your child.[/quote] The United States of America will babysit my kid?

[Busyman]

I don&#39;t claim to know much of Iraq as an ally.
I do know they were aliies and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam (saw it on the subway).

I do know also there is something called the "lesser evil at the time".

I guess in the Iran/Iraq war, Iran did not serve the interests of the US.

Again I don&#39;t claim to why.

We aided Afghanistan against Russia yet now we are on "speaking terms" with Russia.

It seems the US jumps in whenever there&#39;s a country trying to "expand".
I think of Hitler running over country after country.