Iraqi Abuse Photos Spark Shock

[leftism]

Before we begin... I'm surprised no one has posted this already and if they have.. sorry but I must have missed it.



Iraqi abuse photos spark shock

Images of US soldiers allegedly abusing Iraqi prisoners at a notorious jail near Baghdad have sparked shock and anger.

Politicians in the US, Britain and the Middle East expressed disgust at the images, broadcast on US television, and called for those responsible to face justice.

CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.

Last month, the US army suspended 17 soldiers over alleged prisoner abuses.

'Appalled'

Six soldiers - including a brigadier general - are facing court martial in Iraq, and a possible prison term over the PoW pictures.

A spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "appalled" and described the incident as regrettable.

"Nobody underestimates how wrong this is, but these actions are not representative of the 150,000 coalition soldiers in Iraq. We shouldn't judge the actions of coalition soldiers as a whole by the actions of a few," he said.

Abu Ghraib prison was much feared in Saddam Hussein's era

US Republican congressman, Jim Leach - who had opposed the war - said: "The US has historically prided itself on treating prisoners of war with decency and respect.

"This has to be investigated and accountability obtained within the American military justice system."

Adnan Al-Pachachi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said it would create a great deal of anger and discontent among Iraqis already concerned about security in the country.

But he rejected a comparison with the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad during the days of Saddam Hussein.

"I don't think you can compare the two. Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now."

The graphic images include one of a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals. CBS said the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

Another shows naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts. In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals.

Blair condemns abuse

CBS's flagship 60 Minutes programme said it had been pressured by the Pentagon not to show the images, until the photos started circulating elsewhere.

"The Pentagon was really very concerned about broadcasting the pictures, and I think they had good reason," said 60 Minute executive producer Jeff Fager.

"The idea that there are hostages being held in Iraq concerned us quite a bit in terms of broadcasting them. It wouldn't take long to get on Al-Jazeera at all."

Mr Fager told the BBC's Today programme the pictures were initially brought to the attention of US military in Iraq, and formed the centrepiece of proceedings against the soldiers.

'No training'

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

Deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers.

He said the suspected abusers "let their fellow soldiers down".

Meanwhile, a new opinion poll for the New York Times and CBS News suggested dwindling support among Americans for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Only 47% of 1,042 Americans questioned believed invading Iraq was the right thing to do, the lowest support recorded in the polls since the war began.


source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672901.stm)

This is the guy who was made to stand on a box and had wires attached to his genitals.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40099000/jpg/_40099893_prisonergrab203.jpg

I've seen other images on TV from the CBS program which are also described in this article but I've been unable to find them on the web, probably due to the highly unpleasant content.

edit: found them

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/apr2004/8/0/000CE7A0-F303-1091-8AB280C328EC0000.jpg

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/apr2004/6/0/000EE316-F2E5-1091-8AB280C328EC0000.jpg

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/apr2004/4/0/000293C5-F29D-1091-8AB280C328EC0000.jpg

Another thing that I found surprising was this quote from one of the accused soldiers


Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

Is this guy lying or are US troops really that poorly supported by their superiors when it comes to missions that don't involve fighting? Or is this a symptom of a bigger disease? i.e that the post war plan was poorly thought out and the US is sorely unprepared for the scenario it's now facing?

More importantly what effect, if any, will this have on the situation in Iraq and the Middle East once Al-Jazeera starts showing these pictures? (Thats assuming they haven't already, I couldn't find any mention of the story on the English section of their website) I think we can all agree that this is not the way to win hearts and minds.

To sum up..

a) What do you think the impact of this incident will be?

B) Is it a one off incident by a few sickos in the US military or is it a symptom of a deeper military problem? Poor training? Poor planning at a higher level?

c) Are these individuals a bunch of psychos who happened to meet up with each other in Iraq or does this incident say something about US society in general?

one more..

d) Does this mean we should be concerned about how the prisoners in Cuba are being treated? I'm referring to the prisoners who havent been given a trial or been found guilty of any crime yet. The British guys released from Cuba made similar allegations of mistreatment when they came back to Britian, but afaik their accusations were taken with a mountain of salt. Should we be examining their allegations in more detail now?

My answers to the above are...

a) Pretty damn serious, it may blow over eventually or it could lead to more Najaf / Fallujah type situations. I would expect a serious worsening of relations between the US military and moderate Iraqi civilians though. This might just be enough to motivate moderate Iraqis to join people like Muqtada al-Sadr in Najaf. The timing certainly couldnt be any worse.

B) Don't know. I was hoping someone with experience in the US military could fill in the blanks. Taking into account factors such as the high number of friendly fire incidents you could make a case for poor training. I suspect poor planning for this scenario may be the culprit though.

c) Not sure. It would be a stroke of extraordinary bad luck for 6 or 7 psychopaths to all meet up in the same place at the same time, and you have to admit America as a whole has become a lot more paranoid and vengeful these days. Then again.. perhaps being in a foreign country away from the judging eyes of your friends and family loosens your morals in relation to torturing people... I would be interested to see the input from Americans on this one.

d) Undecided. Really depends on the answer to question c.

I'm preparing myself for the inevitable accusations of anti-Americanism.. (perhaps this is why it hasn't been posted yet?) however it would be nice if we could stick to the topic/facts for at least 5-10 minutes before we start tearing chunks out of each other like wild animals. :)

PS

On the plus side this incident was reported by an American soldier who was completly sickened by what he saw. I suppose that means not all of you are raving lunatics then :P (j/k)

[MalaDzen]

Well firstly i think it may inflame Iraqi hatred of American soilders even more so. Although these couple of idiots who did these things do not represent all of the American troops in Iraq, many Arabs will just use it as another reason to add to their list to claim that Americans are 'evil'

Yes, I also read about the British prisoners who were released from the prison in Cuba. They didnt only describe mistreatment in that prison but also when they were being held somewhere in the middle east..cant remember exactly which country. I'll try an find the article..

The fact that these incidents occured is not that much of a surprise. But it came at the worst possible timing. As the Americans struggle to control the voilence in Fallujah (and the rest of Iraq), their popularity isnt going to be helped by this...

[Rat Faced]

Another source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1206672,00.html)


One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.



This is total and utter crap.

The UK, as part of its NATO obligations, lecture each and every serviceman annually as to the "Rules of Engagement".

This includes The Geneva Conventions.

Every nation that is part of NATO is supposed to give this training to all soldiers annually, whether Regular or Reserve.

Last i heard the USA were in NATO.

The guy is not some green private, he's a Staff Sergeant...I cant see any way that he could have missed every single lecture on the Rules of Engagement and still made that rank.

At that Rank, he's quite possibly resonsible for giving the training in the 1st place.



Let me make it clear though... every Army has its psycho's.

Most US Troops are honourable men, even the ones that arent "career" soldiers, but just trying to get a good College Education.

Its also a truism that soldiers fit for nothing else, often get lumbered with this type of job (and no, im not saying all Guards are crap either, even here its a minority, just a higher proportion)


What this is going to do, polically, is make the whole thing that much more difficult.

Something that their comrades in Iraq now will not thank them for.

[leftism]

@ratfaced

Well..if what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, that guy has just screwed up any chance he had at a court martial.

I wish I'd seen that Guardian report before I posted the BBC one, it does have more important information. Due to the seriousness of the extra information regarding private contractors I think a quote is in order.


US military investigators discovered the photographs, which include images of a hooded prisoner with wires fixed to his body, and nude inmates piled in a human pyramid.

The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year.
...
Hired guns from a wide array of private security firms are playing a central role in the US-led occupation of Iraq.

But this is the first time the privatisation of interrogation and intelligence-gathering has come to light. The investigation names two US contractors, CACI International Inc and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghraib.

Titan, based in San Diego, describes itself as a "a leading provider of comprehensive information and communications products, solutions and services for national security". It recently won a big contract for providing translation services to the US army.

CACI, which has headquarters in Virginia, claims on its website to "help America's intelligence community collect, analyse and share global information in the war on terrorism".

According to the military report on Abu Ghraib, both played an important role at the prison.

At one point, the investigators say: "A CACI instructor was terminated because he allowed and/or instructed MPs who were not trained in interrogation techniques to facilitate interrogations by setting conditions which were neither authorised [nor] in accordance with applicable regulations/policy."

Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: "One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him."

She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens.


While we can lay the blame of abuse on the individuals responsible, surely allowing private contractors, (who are not liable under any jurisdiction) to interrogate Iraqi's constitutes gross negligence on behalf of high ranking decision makers?

Indeed...


"It's insanity," said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors' free-ranging role. "These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?"

Rape, sexual humiliation, torture, private contractors, answerable to no-one, given free reign over detainees..... I suspect this can of worms will get a lot worse before it gets any better.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@30 April 2004 - 17:30
This is total and utter crap.

The UK, as part of its NATO obligations, lecture each and every serviceman annually as to the "Rules of Engagement".

This includes The Geneva Conventions.







I read this article on the Beeb website yesterday.

Rat,

Welcome to America. That excuse is what the lawyers are going to use to defend these little fuckers.

Just like people who sue McDonalds for making them fat and for coffee being too hot, America is swarming with people who are being taught to take no responsibility for their lives or actions.

I swear warning labels are all over everything now to protect manufacturers from lawsuits.


http://members.aol.com/djadamson2/coke.jpg

Warning: This bottle was not intended to be broken over a counter and shoved up the rectum or swallowed. It should not be used as an additive to baby food. In fact, please put the bottle down, and buy something else.

I mean really Rat, I am sure these boys were shocked to learn that wires around the genitals weren&#39;t considered appropriate. I guess they just can&#39;t trust their instincts. <_<

And these people are of course the minority that are going to be held high to represent the majority.

You find these people not only in the military, but also concentrated in the any nations police force and particularly in State prisons.

I call it GED(highschool diploma equivalent for drop outs) with a gun. People with little education, given power. Who is going to complain that they kick convicted rapists and murders? It is a cruel power trip.

I&#39;ve met this type myself when pulled over for speeding. "Well looky what we have here bubba, a smart college boy, apparently he ain&#39;t so smart as to understand the speed limit. Son, what hell were you thinking".

"Well, officer, I was thinking that if everyone were as lawabiding as myself, speeding tickets and removing cats from trees would be all you did. Isn&#39;t your motto "to protect and serve", not "harrass and annoy".

"You shut up boy, or your going to jail&#33;"

People with self esteem problems due to minimal education, failure with women, or little pee-pee&#39;s, like to take there frustrations out in this way.

[Rat Faced]

Alas Hobbes,

this truism regarding power is Universal :(

[vidcc]

does anyone remember the eyebrow raising around the world at Bushes refusal to sign up to the International Criminal Court ? I thought at the time it was more to protect his own arse <_<

ICC and immunity for Americans (http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/2003/0702econ.htm)

I have just seen Bush on CNN and he is not backing away from this particular case, in fact he has condemed it, subject to confirmation of facts ( for once i agree 100 % .... the facts need to be confirmed first )

I agree that troops should be given certain protections from prosecution in conflict situations, however not from the sort of things that are alledged to have occured here.

[BigBank_Hank]

This is truly a sad situation and couldn&#39;t have been brought forward at a worse time. I hope that these morons get prosecuted to the fullest extent.

This isn&#39;t the first case where private individuals have been brought in without proper training. FOX did a story about a month ago on the subject of proper training and they couldn&#39;t get any straight answers from the employers. It seems that there is such a demand for these people over there that their just sending people over without proper training. Problem is that there isn&#39;t a screening process for these individuals to go through before they get on a plane.

[leftism]

update:

It appears some UK troops do not want to be outdone by the USA when it comes to torturing prisoners. I won&#39;t quote the entire report but instead I&#39;ve included the most important parts and a link to the full article.



UK troops in Iraqi torture probe

The Ministry of Defence has launched an investigation into allegations that British soldiers have been pictured torturing an Iraqi prisoner.

The photographs, obtained by the Daily Mirror newspaper, show a suspected thief being beaten and urinated on.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40103000/jpg/_40103599_mirror203.jpg



The Mirror says the pictures were handed over by British soldiers who claimed a rogue element in the British army was responsible for abusing prisoners and civilians.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the soldiers from the Queen&#39;s Lancashire Regiment told the paper no charges were brought against the unnamed captive.

They allege during his 8-hour ordeal he was threatened with execution, his jaw broken and his teeth smashed.

&#39;Losing war&#39;

After being beaten and urinated on, he was driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, the soldiers claimed.

They added they did not know whether he survived.

The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.

One told the paper: "We are not helping ourselves out there. We are never going to get them on our side. We are fighting a losing war."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

I wonder.. if we were in the position of the Iraqis how would we react?

[MalaDzen]

You&#39;d hate the fuking Americans guts.. and you sure as hell wouldnt just hate those that did it to you.. you&#39;d hate them all

[lynx]

Originally posted by vidcc@30 April 2004 - 18:01
does anyone remember the eyebrow raising around the world at Bushes refusal to sign up to the International Criminal Court ? I thought at the time it was more to protect his own arse <_<

ICC and immunity for Americans (http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljustice/icc/2003/0702econ.htm)

I have just seen Bush on CNN and he is not backing away from this particular case, in fact he has condemed it, subject to confirmation of facts ( for once i agree 100 % .... the facts need to be confirmed first )

I agree that troops should be given certain protections from prosecution in conflict situations, however not from the sort of things that are alledged to have occured here.
If you believe the stories that Bush intended to invade Iraq right from the start it puts that decision in a whole new perspective, doesn&#39;t it.

[Rat Faced]

Like i said....


Let me make it clear though... every Army has its psycho&#39;s.


Those UK troops, and the American ones, have brought total disgrace to their respective Armies/Countries.

They were all trained on the Geneva Conventions and Rules of Engagement, there is no excuse...

In both Armies, Civil Law has precidence over Military Law, they broke the Law in Iraq....

I think they should all be locked up by the Iraqi authorities, in Iraqi jails, and see how they like it. If they broke the Law in Germany, they&#39;d be in a German Jail now, Italian Law an Italian Jail......so why not?

&#39;Course, im quite "liberal" that way...... :rolleyes:

[sArA]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 May 2004 - 13:48
Like i said....


Let me make it clear though... every Army has its psycho&#39;s.


Those UK troops, and the American ones, have brought total disgrace to their respective Armies/Countries.

They were all trained on the Geneva Conventions and Rules of Engagement, there is no excuse...

In both Armies, Civil Law has precidence over Military Law, they broke the Law in Iraq....

I think they should all be locked up by the Iraqi authorities, in Iraqi jails, and see how they like it. If they broke the Law in Germany, they&#39;d be in a German Jail now, Italian Law an Italian Jail......so why not?

&#39;Course, im quite "liberal" that way...... :rolleyes:
I agree here,



Pretty embarrassing state of affairs isn&#39;t it? As is usually the case in these stories, the odd bad apple is seen as representative of the whole barrell. :(

[BigBank_Hank]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 May 2004 - 08:48
&#39;Course, im quite "liberal" that way...... :rolleyes:
I never had you figured to be liberal Rat :P

[chalice]

Obviously, these images are photoshopped. It is inconceivable that enlightened Westerners could commit such attrocities.

It reminds me of the lies I heard, first hand, of how Bristish Soldiers tortured untried Northern Irish suspects during internment.

Oh, how we laughed when Uncle Kevin recounted the adventure he had while having been dropped out of a helicopter (blindfolded) six feet off the ground. Or when Uncle Brendan regailled us with his escapades of his naked testicles being pushed against scorching radiators. These are only the offences that I have inccurred within my family. I could go on ad nauseum with the stories I&#39;ve heard.

I would submit that visciousness is a military endemic. Especially within the dubious ranks of the Paras and the SAS.

I honestly believe that this kind of brutality is quite institutional.

[Rat Faced]

Some of the SAS do that to the other British Troops on excercise....

I was once stripped down to my pants and put on the edge of a "cliff", just standing there by my heels.... luckily it was only a 1&#39; drop, and i "knew" that in my head..i mean they wouldnt, would they?

...still scared the crap outa me :ph34r:





My "crime" was getting caught... and i wasnt even on their bloody excercise... :angry:




This apart though, please believe me when i say that it is a minority of psychos, with another minority of "peers" that go along with them (and when seperated from their "friends" havent the guts to instigate themselves)...

The vast majority are normal people, and the vast majority of mishaps are accidents that happen under pressure, not planned "torture" that these civilians underwent.

Even the majority of these physco&#39;s will not risk "physical" torture, they go with mental humiliation and putting the fear of God into their victims.

[Biggles]

This is a major shame. Things are pretty damn hard over there as it is without having to fight a rear guard credibility action.

Whether this problem is endemic or simply isolated to a few dozen individuals is probably no longer relevant. Images of women humiliating Iraqi men have been beamed around the whole of the Arab world. Iraqi manhood has been called into question in front of their neighbours, friends and rivals.

It is probably too early to say what damage these clowns have done, but George Bush&#39;s anger would suggest that his advisors have told him it is considerable. Ironically, these soldiers have probably done more damage to US interests in the region than AQ, the Iraqi insurgants and the whole of the anti war movement (i.e. most of the rest of the world) put together.

I thought at the outset that this war was ill advised and have not seen anything yet to change my mind, but we are there for the duration now whether we like it or not and this has just made things really really hard.

[Snee]

EDit: had it wrong, or at least i can&#39;t find it now.

The prisoners were to be broken and demoralised, presumably to facilitate interrogation.
And only in block "A1" or somesuch. I don&#39;t get why it was done in the first place.

EDit: again, did hear a radio broadcast, where it was said that this was reported much earlier by soldiers present.

[james_bond_rulez]

Western societies, civilized or not, are still consisted of humans, they are just as fallible as people from developing countries and undeveloped countries.

In war, people do all kinds of nasty stuff to other human beings. Americans soldiers got humilated and dragged around the street and displayed as trophies. American prison officiers and the army secretly torturing Iraqis prisoners illegally.

Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

We are all sinners.

[Ariel_001]

Does anyone see something wrong with this?

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1424/000CE7A0-F303-1091-8AB280C328EC000.jpg

That head does not look right. I think it has ben pasted there. <_<

[Biggles]

Difficult to say. With modern technology anything is possible. What is certain is that she has a most disturbing smile. :ph34r:

[Sparkle1984]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@4 May 2004 - 08:42
Western societies, civilized or not, are still consisted of humans, they are just as fallible as people from developing countries and undeveloped countries.

In war, people do all kinds of nasty stuff to other human beings. Americans soldiers got humilated and dragged around the street and displayed as trophies. American prison officiers and the army secretly torturing Iraqis prisoners illegally.

Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

We are all sinners.
It&#39;s no good to just sigh and say "we are all sinners" and try and conveniently sweep it under the carpet.

Surely the USA should be setting an example, and treating people like that is hardly going to set a good example to other countries, is it?

[james_bond_rulez]

you are right, although i am just merely pointing out that we are all capable of carrying out sinful acts such as this

[Biggles]

This is really rumbling on. The pictures in the Glasgow Herald today were most unpleasant. I had not realised that these had appeared in Arabic newspapers weeks ago. Is this what was referred to as despicable lies a couple of weeks ago at a Coalition press conference?

If it is then I suspect we have minus credibility rating in the region at the moment. However, I was quite impressed to see GW take the bull by the horns and go over there and apologise. That could not have been particularly pleasing for him as he launches his re-election campaign. I think the soldiers implicated might well consider a long holiday in Sweden or Canada (a very long holiday) as they are unlikely to be on the Whitehouse Christmas Card list.

[james_bond_rulez]

just saw the live televised broadcast seeing Rumsfeld defend his sorry ass

I am still not convinced, I dont trust the bastard...

he should be fired <_<

[clunk1234567]

wether the photos are fake i don&#39;t know. I do know that the soldiers get up every morning waiting to have a leg or arm blown off. I do know that they&#39;re very, very scared, and that fear is total. I do know that a major part of theyre job is getting to a scene after a bomb has gone off to witness the most harrowing of sights. If those photos are true, then it&#39;s wrong in a big way, but after what our guys have been through i just don&#39;t hear the complaints as loudly as some.

[BigBank_Hank]

Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@7 May 2004 - 13:12
he should be fired <_<
Firing may be a bit harsh. I think that he got the message when the President scolded him earlier in the week for with holding the pictures for so long.

[Rat Faced]

GENEVA (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Thursday it had repeatedly urged the United States to take "corrective action" at a Baghdad jail at the center of a scandal over abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

The Geneva-based humanitarian agency, mandated under international treaties to visit detainees, has had regular access to Abu Ghraib prison since U.S.-led forces began using it last year, according to chief spokeswoman Antonella Notari.

"The ICRC, aware of the situation, and based on its findings, has repeatedly asked the U.S. authorities to take corrective action," she told Reuters.

Notari declined to give details of what the ICRC had seen during the visits, which take place every five to six weeks, or about its reports to the U.S. authorities.

The United Nations said separately it had written to U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Colin Powell and Governor of Iraq Paul Bremer, seeking information on human rights in Iraq over the past year.

The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, which has promised a report by the end of the month, said its investigators were ready to visit Baghdad for talks with coalition and Iraqi leaders.

The ICRC, which has been operating since the late 19th century, keeps a public silence about what it hears from detainees as the price for gaining access to jails in trouble spots around the world from Chechnya to West Africa.

Pictures of grinning U.S. soldiers abusing naked Iraqis at Abu Ghraib -- the largest prison in the country and notorious for torture under Iraqi President Saddam Hussein -- have sparked an international outcry.

In a bid to limit damage to the U.S. image, President Bush went on two Arabic satellite television stations on Wednesday to tell an outraged Middle East that soldiers guilty of abusing Iraqi prisoners would be punished.

WANTON CRIMINAL ABUSES

The jail was also been the focus of a separate earlier probe by a U.S. general.

That report by Major-General Antonio Taguba, covering the period October-December 2003 and completed on March 3, cited incidents of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses."
Notari poured cold water on some U.S. media reports suggesting that the ICRC had not had access to a special wing in the jail where the abuse took place.

"To the best of our knowledge we have had access to all sectors," she said.

And she rejected a proposal from the new head of the jail, Major-General Geoffrey Miller, that the ICRC set up a permanent presence there, saying: "We are not going to be part of their organization."

The ICRC has visited thousands of prisoners under the control of U.S. and British forces, which are also being investigated after a British newspaper published pictures of a soldier apparently urinating on an Iraqi detainee.

But Notari declined to comment on what officials had seen in British-run jails.

Under the Geneva Conventions on both prisoners and the treatment of civilians in wartime, the ICRC must be allowed to interview detainees in private and on a regular basis.

On these terms, it has carried out two visits to Saddam, in U.S. custody since his capture shortly before Christmas.

"It is important that people understand our role, which is to be present and to have a dialogue with the authorities," Notari said.

But on a few occasions the Red Cross has broken its vow of silence because either the authority concerned has issued a partial account of the ICRC&#39;s findings or has simply failed to take any action after a long period.

The ICRC recently expressed mounting frustration over the situation of Afghan and other detainees at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, announcing that its concerns about conditions and treatment were not being addressed.

Source (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=ZDRYBCASANIXUCRBAEZSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5062923&pageNumber=1)


There is a huge difference between finding out about something and immediately acting on it, as Bush is claiming, and sitting on your arse and doing nothing (thereby condoning it) until it hits the public domain and causes an outcry....which is apparently whats happened.

They knew about this stuff Last Year and acted by committee rather than kicking arses, the committee reported over 2 months ago.....

Now that the public knows, action gets taken... co-incidence?


I wonder if the same warnings have been totally ignored by the UK Government. Somehow that would not surprise me...

[BigBank_Hank]

There&#39;s no doubt that there was some feet dragging. What it does prove though is that the system is working. It was never swept under the rug and never cover up. Secretary Rumsfeld said today that an investigation was under way and that&#39;s why they hadn&#39;t come forward yet. He said that they didn&#39;t want to jeopardize the investigation by making this information public before the investigation was complete.

[TROUBLE^MAKER]

Reminds me of a college fraternity.

[Rat Faced]

Read it again...

An "investigation" was completed over 2 months ago.....

The Red Cross have been sending reports for over 9 months to the administration; including directly to Colin Powell...remember him?


Nothing happened (that means it was swept under the rug) until a public outcry...


The result.......... another investigation?


Which planet do you actually live on Hank? :blink:

[BigBank_Hank]

Originally posted by BigBank_Hank@7 May 2004 - 17:47
There&#39;s no doubt that there was some feet dragging.
I was glad today to see Secretary Rumsfeld today take full responsibility for this. At least the administration is holding people accountable for their actions.

This isn&#39;t the first Rumsfeld bumble. The whole post war mess is a result of he and his staff underestimating the resistance we would face. The thing is we can&#39;t just get rid of him in the middle of an ongoing war. If Rumsfeld goes it&#39;s most likely that other heads will roll in the Pentagon also, and in the middle of a war this would create chaos for battlefield commanders.

[Snee]

Originally posted by TROUBLE^MAKER@7 May 2004 - 23:58
Reminds me of a college fraternity.
Reminds me of an eyesore.

[scroff]

Well, as this is my first time here and thus, obviously my first post... I&#39;ll be gentle. B) I couldn&#39;t keep my yap shut on this topic, tho.

I see some people calling for Rumsfeld to be fired. My question is why stop there? Is it that people believe that Bush or Cheney didn&#39;t know this stuff was going on?

This stuff was reported last fall by Provost Marshall Donald Ryder, a Major General who reported that there were system wide problems. I guess Bush didn&#39;t see that report tho. I mean, what the heck, Rumsfeld admitted he didn&#39;t read the Taguba report, just "the summary". I guess he didn&#39;t think it was important enough to tell his boss about. In January, Brig. Gen. Karpinski was relieved of her duties at Abu Ghraib and suspended. Now, I&#39;m pretty sure that when a Brigadier General is relieved of her duties it makes some waves, but I guess they didn&#39;t reach the White House.

ICRC reports it told Bremer about these kinds of problems a year ago. He, too, probably didn&#39;t think it was anything that needed to go to Bush.

Just a point on Rumsfeld going... this &#39;war&#39; won&#39;t be over by next January, when the new administration takes over, and Rumsfeld won&#39;t remain, so what difference does it make if it&#39;s now or 8 months from now?

[Rat Faced]

Welcome Scroff, nice to see you again...

:)

[scroff]

Thanks for the welcome&#33; :mushy:

[100%]

Western Consumerist War + Effects of Cheaper Technology

= Cameras

many of the army personel have a camera nowadays.......

Before they didn&#39;t

what happened before.........?

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~santa/pics/canon.jpg

[lynx]

I read this comment the other day.

The US and UK administrations have expressed horror about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. Yet they seem to see no problem with the thousands of dead innocent Iraqi civilians. What strange morals.

[MagicNakor]

"Trophy" photographs have been around since WWI. However, this is the first time these photographs have come out while the war is still going.

:ninja:

[100%]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@10 May 2004 - 01:47
"Trophy" photographs have been around since WWI. However, this is the first time these photographs have come out while the war is still going.

:ninja:


So Canon, Nikon etc can also be blamed and should Armies be prohibitted from having cameras

or

in relation to freedom of Speech

should we call

Every Person in the Army with a Camera............A Journalist????????????

http://img16.photobucket.com/albums/v47/zedaxax/pf1.jpg

http://prorev.com/304palestinecamera.jpg