Eye Openers

[vidcc]

source (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_objectid=14214396%26method=full%26siteid=50143%26headline=50%2dfacts%2dshow%2dwhy%2dwe%2dmust%2dchange%2dworld%2d-name_page.html)

50 FACTS SHOW WHY WE MUST CHANGE WORLD May 6 2004




By Matt Roper


DID you know that 300,000 of the soldiers fighting in conflicts around the world are children?

Or that 70 per cent of the global population has never used a phone?

These are just two of the facts author Jessica Williams believes are capable of changing the way we think about the world.

"These are facts, but they are not immutable truths," says Williams. "It's not too late to change the way our world works. Some of the facts need major shifts in thinking, while others require governments to start taking their responsibilities seriously. Neither of these will be easy to achieve, but if we don't try they'll never happen."

Here are 50 facts worth knowing about our world... will they make us want to change it?

1 THE average Japanese woman can expect to live to 84; her counterpart in Botswana will die at 39.

2 BLACK men born in the US stand a one-in-three chance of going to jail. For white men the odds are one in 17.

3 ONE in five of the world's population - 1.25 billion people - is undernourished.

4 NEARLY half of British 15-year-olds have tried illegal drugs and nearly a quarter are regular cigarette smokers.

5 CHILDREN living in poverty are three times more likely to suffer mental illness than children from wealthy families.

6 EIGHTY-ONE per cent of the world's executions in 2002 took place in just three countries: China, Iran and the USA.

7 SUPERMARKETS in the UK know more about their customers than the government does. They use loyalty cards to determine your income and what your interests are.

8 EVERY cow in the EU is subsidised by £1.40 a day - three out of four Africans have less than that to live on.

9 SAME-SEX relationships are illegal in more than 70 countries. In nine - including Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia - the penalty is death.

10 EVERY hour, UK households throw away enough rubbish to fill the Royal Albert Hall.

11 THERE are 27 million slaves in the world.

12 A THIRD of the world's population is at war. In 2002, 30 countries were fighting in 37 armed conflicts - a combined population of 2.29 billion people.

13 THE UK has the second-highest rate of teen pregnancies in the developed world, behind the US. There are 30.8 births for every 1,000 teenagers. Teenage mothers are twice as likely to live in poverty.

14 ONE in five people live on less than 50p a day.

15 THERE are 44 million child labourers in India, some working 16-hour days.

16 PEOPLE in industrialised countries eat between six and seven kilograms of food additives every year. A ham sandwich can contain up to 13 E-numbers.

17 GOLFER Tiger Woods is the world's highest-paid sportsman, earning £44million a year, including £30,000 a day for wearing Nike caps - which Thai workers get £2.20 a day to make.

18 EVERY week an average 88 children are expelled from US schools for carrying a gun.

19 LANDMINES kill or maim one person every hour.

20 THERE are at least 300,000 prisoners of conscience, often held in appalling conditions, sometimes tortured, simply for peacefully expressing their own beliefs.

21 CARS kill two people every minute.

22 THE US owes the United Nations $1bn in unpaid dues. Yet it spends the same amount on its military programme every 23 hours.

23 TWENTY-SIX million people voted in the 2001 UK General Election. More than 32 million votes were cast in the first series of Pop Idol.

24 IN Kenya, bribery payments make up a third of the average household budget.

25 THE world's trade in illegal drugs is estimated to be worth around £225bn - about the same as the world's pharmaceutical industry.

26 TO fly a kiwi fruit from New Zealand to the UK means five times its weight in greenhouse gases being pumped into the atmosphere.

27 MORE than 150 countries are known to use torture.

28 AMERICANS spend £5.6bn on pornography every year - the same amount their government spends on foreign aid.

29 THE average urban Briton is caught on camera 300 times a day. With 10 per cent of the world's 30 million CCTV cameras, we are the most watched nation in the world.

30 IN 2001, 13.2 million Americans and 2.5 million Britons had plastic surgery.

31 BRAZIL has more Avon ladies than members of its armed forces. Physical beauty is so highly prized that calling someone vain is a compliment.

32 EIGHTY-TWO per cent of the world's smokers live in developing countries.

33 THE world's oil reserves could be exhausted by 2040.

34 MORE than 70 per cent of the world's population has never heard a dial tone. In Africa just one in 40 people has a phone.

35 A QUARTER of the world's armed conflicts of recent years have involved a struggle for natural resources.

36 ALMOST 30 million Africans are HIV-positive. By 2050 the disease may have claimed as many as 280 million lives.

37 TEN languages die out every year.

38 MORE people die from suicide than in armed conflicts. In the past 45 years, suicide rates have grown by 60 per cent worldwide.

39 SEVEN million American women and one million American men suffer from an eating disorder.

40 THERE are 67,000 people employed in the lobbying industry in Washington DC - 125 for each member of Congress.

41 SINCE 1977, there have been 80,000 acts of violence or disruption at abortion clinics in North America.

42 THERE are 300,000 child soldiers fighting in conflicts around the world.

43 MORE people can identify the golden arches of McDonald's than the Christian cross. The same goes for the Shell oil logo, the Mercedes badge and the Olympic rings.

44 A THIRD of the world's obese people live in the developing world. Campaigners blame Western countries for dumping cheap, processed, fatty foods on poorer nations.

45 IN 2003 the US spent $379bn on its military. This was 22 times the combined military spending of the seven "rogue states" - Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria.

46 MORE than 12,000 women are killed in Russia every year as a result of domestic violence.

47 SIXTY-ONE per cent of British teenagers believe aliens have landed on Earth, while 39 per cent have any belief in Christianity.

48 TWO million girls and women are subjected to genital mutilation every year.

49 IN China, as a result of the preference for sons over daughters and the country's one-child-per-family law, there are 44 million fewer women than men.

50 SOME 120,000 women and girls are trafficked into Western Europe every year. The UN estimates the trade is worth £4bn a year.



numbers 6,23,28 & 40 stood out for me

[hobbes]

Sounds like a huge load of carebear feces to me. Could we please get a more emotive list of tripe, at all?

The bottom line is human nature, and that cannot be changed.

The author needs to buy a clue and realize that people are selfish motherfuckers by nature. I anticipate that the author is a well off Christian who really cares.
http://www.crazyasses.com/images/UBC/tammyfayebaker.jpg

You can go back through history and see that the same crimes against humanity have always existed, the only difference is the names of the players.

15 THERE are 44 million child labourers in India, some working 16-hour days.- This was the US during the industrial revolution. Now to avoid the very Unions which were created and fought to give workers rights, and which now essentially exploit their power, corporations have just outsourced the labor to places they can still exploit. Same story.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


21 CARS kill two people every minute.

And? Cars allow us so much freedom, it seems that everyone who is able gives up the bus and bike in a heartbeat. Are they trying to harken back to some blissful time when man and nature communed? Please!


34 MORE than 70 per cent of the world's population has never heard a dial tone. In Africa just one in 40 people has a phone.

And this is bad? Could I please just drive 2 miles to work without watching women babble into their phones and forget about the stoplight. Perhaps if phones were less available, and it took an effort to communicate, we might hold our tongues until we had something worth saying.

In the US, car will soon be called, mobile phonebooths.

43 MORE people can identify the golden arches of McDonald's than the Christian cross. The same goes for the Shell oil logo, the Mercedes badge and the Olympic rings.

I am physically ill at this platitude. Tells me all I need to know about the author.

Honestly, many of these things have no point at all, they are just there to make some vague emotive implication. Thanks for a list of platitudes, I think Oprah will jump on this straight away. (:x).

Honestly, we all want a utopian world, but the naivete of the author and the bizarre hodgepodge of "facts" makes me wonder if her head is screwed on tightly enough.

[amphoteric88]

:x

[vidcc]

notice i put speach marks around the fact part of the title.
Hobbes, i agree some of the points are emotional points but you just basically say "so what. we all know what human nature is like", you pointed to that yourself, however do you think that excuses it?
Perhaps you don't like the "fluffy" world where people believe that we can change certain things for the better. I don't think you would accept many things that affect you directly in an adverse manner by just saying " oh well it's just good old human greed"..... Half the battle of curing a desease is diagnosing it and it's cause in the first place is it not?


15 THERE are 44 million child labourers in India, some working 16-hour days.- This was the US during the industrial revolution. Now to avoid the very Unions which were created and fought to give workers rights, and which now essentially exploit their power, corporations have just outsourced the labor to places they can still exploit. Same story.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

and you think this is ok? or do you think that something could or should be done about it?


34 MORE than 70 per cent of the world's population has never heard a dial tone. In Africa just one in 40 people has a phone.

And this is bad? Could I please just drive 2 miles to work without watching women babble into their phones and forget about the stoplight. Perhaps if phones were less available, and it took an effort to communicate, we might hold our tongues until we had something worth saying.

In the US, car will soon be called, mobile phonebooths.

i don't see why this is bad either


21 CARS kill two people every minute.

And? Cars allow us so much freedom, it seems that everyone who is able gives up the bus and bike in a heartbeat. Are they trying to harken back to some blissful time when man and nature communed? Please!

but we can make driving standards tougher and reduce the amount of drink/drug related deaths surely. The UK has made drink driving as anti-social as smoking in a lung cancer unit. I'm not saying that there is no drink driving there however they have cut the injury and fatalities level significantly. We don't have to give up our driving freedoms to reduce this total


43 MORE people can identify the golden arches of McDonald's than the Christian cross. The same goes for the Shell oil logo, the Mercedes badge and the Olympic rings.

I am physically ill at this platitude. Tells me all I need to know about the author.


i agree but it is a valid point for believers to be sad about. (of which i am not one)

I surely agree that some points are irrelevent, but the list is not exhastative. I'm sure we could all come up with our own lists that we feel have more important aspects and others would disagree with them :)

[hobbes]

I am saying that human nature is a constant, and, yes, we should all strive for, and hope for, better conduct for a greater good for us all, but the unfocused "shot gun" approach and the sequestered naivete of the author makes me dismiss her as an idiot, who has no idea why these "facts" exist and equally no clue how to combat them.

Her "facts" in some cases are so ridiculous as to make me question her sanity.

She must be some Daddies little girl who wants to talk about "important" things and hug puppy dogs, praise God, and feed the poor.

She is an inconsequential twit, with a book of IQ challenged blather. I think her real name is "Barbie".

I would never question that things could be better, but to take advice from this clueless dolt is insulting, to say the least. She has no connection to the "source".

26 TO fly a kiwi fruit from New Zealand to the UK means five times its weight in greenhouse gases being pumped into the atmosphere.

What does the above even mean?

[Alex H]

I think it means the poms should just grow their own kiwi fruit.

Yeah, some of the "facts" are a bit wishy-washy, but assuming thay are correct they are not presented in any context, and as such are interesting statistics.

The one about more people being able to recognise the McDonalds M than the christian cross was interesting. Maybe the Vatican should get a better PR company...


vidcc - don't worry about hobbes, he's just a grumpy old bugger.

hobbes - I didn't mean that. :D

[vidcc]

Originally posted by Alex H@6 May 2004 - 20:31
vidcc - don't worry about hobbes, he's just a grumpy old bugger.


:lol: i agree.. He's the origins of the phrase "not a happy bunny" :lol:


Hobbes you seem to be using the same arguement to a degree as you did with the diplomats letter thread. whatever your views of the author isn't it concievable that she raises some points? It doesn't matter if she understands why something happens one way or the other, or even that she may not know how to cure the problem. I don't need to be a mechanic to know my car won't start. I don't need to know why it won't start or how to fix it, i just need to know to call a mechanic.
What is suggested is not how to fix things but rather there are some thing that need to be fixed and we possibly need to look at the problems from a different angle than we are at present.

the original post

"These are facts, but they are not immutable truths," says Williams. "It's not too late to change the way our world works. Some of the facts need major shifts in thinking, while others require governments to start taking their responsibilities seriously. Neither of these will be easy to achieve, but if we don't try they'll never happen."

[J'Pol]

hobbes

The source appears to be The Mirror, one of our redtop tabloids. In essence a comic as opposed to a newspaper. The author is identified as Matt Roper, tho' you will be as aware as I that Matt Roper could well be just a name used by them when publishing trite tripe like this.

It is classic "fill a slow news day" material. It is the written equivalent of "library photograph".

[hobbes]

Originally posted by J'Pol@7 May 2004 - 09:37
hobbes

The source appears to be The Mirror, one of our redtop tabloids. In essence a comic as opposed to a newspaper. The author is identified as Matt Roper, tho' you will be as aware as I that Matt Roper could well be just a name used by them when publishing trite tripe like this.

It is classic "fill a slow news day" material. It is the written equivalent of "library photograph".
Jpol,

It is a book written by Jessica Williams, but it makes sense that a tabloid would do a feature on this silliness.

http://www.iconbooks.co.uk/images/50factsb.jpg

Hard-hitting facts and incisive analysis in this vivid picture of the inequalities and absurdities of our world.

"A fearless and compelling work. You need to know what's in this book." Monica Ali, author Brick Lane

Order Here (http://www.iconbooks.co.uk/book.cfm?isbn=1-84046-547-6)



Vidcc, I must say that the author has an excellent grasp of the obvious. Sorry, I stole that from the late Howard Cosell.

http://www.midatlantic.net/8x10/howard-cosell.jpg

I was a wee bit on the grumpy side last night, I must admit, in rereading this thread today.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by J'Pol@7 May 2004 - 00:37
hobbes

The source appears to be The Mirror, one of our redtop tabloids. In essence a comic as opposed to a newspaper. The author is identified as Matt Roper, tho' you will be as aware as I that Matt Roper could well be just a name used by them when publishing trite tripe like this.

It is classic "fill a slow news day" material. It is the written equivalent of "library photograph".
there you go with that superiority complex again :rolleyes: When i lived in England my daily paper was the telegraph, however one has to register to be able to read the online version so i tend to use the "open source" papers to find story sources so people can actually read the source without having to register.
so pointing out that things such as Landmines kill or maim one person every hour or that almost 30 million Africans are HIV-positive. By 2050 the disease may have claimed as many as 280 million lives is "trite"?

i agree the story would be a "filler" but...so what...are you denying that anything published in a tabloid could be true or factual ?. You have failed to contribute anything of any worth to this thread, please go away and don't return until you can come up with something constructive to say about the issues


Hobbes, i sometimes view you as the rabbit guarding the cave in monty pythons holy grail :lol: however i always thought you tried to bring balance to your posts but here you seem more intent on attacking the authors credibility than the issues raised ( are you running for congress? :lol: ). I haven't read the book so i don't know what her suggested solutions are if any, but if you feel you could come up with better ideas than the author to help improve certain issues then please feel free to do so, i would love to read them (this is a genuine request and not sarcasm) I pointed out about the deaths on the road that you quoted. We shouldn't accept this figure because cars give us freedom, we will never stop all deaths but we could reduce the number significantly without giving up our cars.
We both know there are some "fluffy" points but there are some darn disturbing points as well.
I don't live in a perfect world, i know this all too well, however to quote the article again

"These are facts, but they are not immutable truths," says Williams. "It's not too late to change the way our world works. Some of the facts need major shifts in thinking, while others require governments to start taking their responsibilities seriously. Neither of these will be easy to achieve, but if we don't try they'll never happen."
Even from "barbie" i think that statement has sensible though behind it. :)

[BigBank_Hank]

Originally posted by vidcc@7 May 2004 - 00:31
I don't need to know why it won't start or how to fix it, i just need to know to call a mechanic.
You called :D

I just hope that someone from John Kerry's campaign doesn't see this because they'll be blaming most of this on Bush for sure.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by BigBank_Hank+7 May 2004 - 16:35--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigBank_Hank @ 7 May 2004 - 16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-vidcc@7 May 2004 - 00:31
I don&#39;t need to know why it won&#39;t start or how to fix it, i just need to know to call a mechanic.
You called :D

I just hope that someone from John Kerry&#39;s campaign doesn&#39;t see this because they&#39;ll be blaming most of this on Bush for sure. [/b][/quote]
Even the most rabid anti-Bush fanatic (you called?).... can&#39;t blame more than 1 or 2 on him. ;)

[Biggles]

Hobbes

You will give curmudgeons a bad name. :lol:

I agree the list is a little "worthy" and will do little to resolve the problems highlighted. However, if people are going to wring their hands I would prefer that the wring them over genuine injustices so I suppose the book does serve some purpose.

Hank, although not a fan of GW I think it would be pushing the boat out a little to blame him for Tiger Woods sponsership deals. :blink: Although..... he did cut tax for the very rich....mmmm... maybe there is something to this.

[hobbes]

The lady produced a rambling list of disconnected "facts", taken completely out of context, and made no attempt to precipitate out the key elements of human nature which would explain why things are thus. Only from this, as a starting point, can we then move forward to solving the problems.

I lack balance? This is becoming trite.

I clearly stated that the world has problems and she is right, but I feel that her list is filled with "non-truths", sinister but vague insinuations, specious comparisons betweeen un-related topics, and absolutely baffling comments. I doubt she even knows what a greenhouse gas really is. I guarentee that she culled her "facts" from various publications and I suspect she has little knowledge about what she speaks.

Humans are selfish by nature, that is where the whole thing starts. People seem to be unable to accept that they are rich enough, powerful enough, popular enough, or secure enough to stop wanting more.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by hobbes@7 May 2004 - 11:42
Humans are selfish by nature, that is where the whole thing starts. People seem to be unable to accept that they are rich enough, powerful enough, popular enough, or secure enough to stop wanting more.
ok forgetting the authors "credibilities" and "her copy and paste" approach, can we actually talk about some of the issues please?

as i said half the battle against a problem is identifying the problem and the cause to see if we can find a cure.... you use human nature and greed as the cause (very relevent to many of the issues) so what do you think could or should be done to tackle this? or do you think it&#39;s ok as it stands? Attitudes can be changed. I realise that human nature dictates there will always be spoilers, but that doesn&#39;t mean we should just bend over and take it.


i didn&#39;t say you lack balance, i said


Hobbes, i sometimes view you as the rabbit guarding the cave in monty pythons holy grail&nbsp; however i always thought you tried to bring balance to your posts but here you seem more intent on attacking the authors credibility than the issues raised ( are you running for congress?&nbsp; ).

:)

[vidcc]

Originally posted by BigBank_Hank+7 May 2004 - 08:35--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigBank_Hank @ 7 May 2004 - 08:35)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-vidcc@7 May 2004 - 00:31
I don&#39;t need to know why it won&#39;t start or how to fix it, i just need to know to call a mechanic.
You called :D

I just hope that someone from John Kerry&#39;s campaign doesn&#39;t see this because they&#39;ll be blaming most of this on Bush for sure. [/b][/quote]
Don&#39;t think I&#39;ll call you hank....I would be too worried that you attached a tracking device and hidden cameras in the car :lol: :lol: :lol:


Having trouble connecting Bush to any of these issues, they were around before he came to power, mind you he is currently the one we should be looking at to improve some of the US domestic points as would his imminent successor ( I hope :lol: )

[Snee]

Originally posted by vidcc@7 May 2004 - 01:34
26 TO fly a kiwi fruit from New Zealand to the UK means five times its weight in greenhouse gases being pumped into the atmosphere.

Eh?

A pig produces as much pollution as a car.

An&#39; I&#39;m pretty sure a human being beats that kiwi-transport in a few days.

They oughta&#39; work on their sense o&#39; proportions.

And as for the bits about religion, that&#39;s kinda&#39; on the plus-side IMO.

I mean the ones that say the MickeyDee symbol is better known...than the vatican cross an&#39; that teenagers believe in this an&#39; that but not jesus or whatever.

[hobbes]

Well, since same problems have existed since the beginning of recorded history, the only change being the parties involved and the location of the occurance, I doubt much can be changed.

The only real way to change how the world functions is to install a unified Religion and we all accept to abide by those God sent rules. Since people view their religions as "absolute truth", it is going to be impossible to for this to happen.

Ironic that Religions were created to bring peace, but are now the major cause of strife.

[Snee]

I don&#39;t suppose someone could explain 11 a bit better?

@hobbes: the problem with organised religion is that it digs in.
It starts off as effectively being a way to unify people, and provide rules.

Sadly it always, or nearly always outlives it&#39;s use and becomes something that slows down development.

And to continue, religion may not be as much a tool for peace as much as a way of saying: "If you don&#39;t follow these rules, the entity in charge of the universe will get you back".

It&#39;s a way of keeping society together before it&#39;s strong enough to police itself.

Once that happens religion is redundant. It may provide some insight, or so I assume, but the rules it once set down becomes the brakes of civilization, unless religion is allowed to mutate.

This is where the organization becomes a problem, &#39;cuz now we got tradition, which means that things cannot readily be altered.


Now, I appear to have hurt my foot when taking a plunge a couple of hours ago and am off to patch it off and clean up the blood. tata

[BigBank_Hank]

Originally posted by vidcc@7 May 2004 - 16:30
Don&#39;t think I&#39;ll call you hank....I would be too worried that you attached a tracking device and hidden cameras in the car :lol: :lol: :lol:
You worried that I&#39;d slip a cd in the cd player with a subliminal message: vote for George W. Bush? :ph34r:

Nah not me :D

[j2k4]

Just read this one through quickly, and have just enough time to paraphrase Thomas Sowell:

"Though we must strive for equality of opportunity; equality of result is beyond our reach."

I believe the bearing on this thread is self-explanatory; the hardship and vanity involved in pursuit of the latter is assured, though less obvious to the idealists. ;)

[J'Pol]

This shouldn&#39;t even be in world news and events, it is snapshot PC bollocks for the MTV generation.

In my opinion it should be moved to the talk club, it has no place in this section.

FFS this is the McDonalds equivalent of serious debate. Have we descended to the level of fast argument.

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@7 May 2004 - 23:50
Have we descended to the level of fast argument.
One takes it where one can get it.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+8 May 2004 - 00:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 8 May 2004 - 00:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@7 May 2004 - 23:50
Have we descended to the level of fast argument.
One takes it where one can get it. [/b][/quote]
Fair point

Fries with that .

[djweiser]

Some very odd facts there :frusty:

[clocker]

Originally posted by djweiser@7 May 2004 - 17:01
Some very odd facts there :frusty:
So you actually accept that some of these are facts?
How exactly does one determine/quantify #7,33 or 43, for instance?

30 IN 2001, 13.2 million Americans and 2.5 million Britons had plastic surgery.
Define "plastic surgery".
The implication here is that we are talking about breast enlargement and nose jobs, but I think the term "plastic surgery" covers a lot more than that...burn victems typically undergo multiple surgical procedures, are they skewing the results?

32 EIGHTY-TWO per cent of the world&#39;s smokers live in developing countries.
Okay.
What percentage of the world&#39;s population lives in "developing countries"?
82% maybe?

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.
42% of which is produced right here in the USA BTW, did you all know that?

It&#39;s a fact.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@7 May 2004 - 15:50
This shouldn&#39;t even be in world news and events, it is snapshot PC bollocks for the MTV generation.

In my opinion it should be moved to the talk club, it has no place in this section.

FFS this is the McDonalds equivalent of serious debate. Have we descended to the level of fast argument.
so events that go on around the world every day have no place in world news and "events" ? you sad dull person.

Hobbes i fail to see why a unified religion would help, most of the serious issues relate to government (are you suggesting this because of the author again) But at least you tried to look at the issues.
one religious point though is Aids in africa. The church is anti contraception and instead of facing up to the fact that people DO sleep around and this is causing the problem they instead go blindly with sex for procreation only and evey sperm is a possible life.. this is one where the church needs to change it&#39;s attitude

It&#39;s kind of funny that people consentrate on the "barbie" issues more than say the eveyday fatalities due to landmines, perhaps they are turning a blind eye to such unpalletable issues because if interferes with their cozy life.
perhaps Hobbes is right, we should accept that we can never make a difference and evolve into a higher race, after all someone will just come up behind us again for penetration.

j2 you may have a point about "the way things are" in your quote, but it&#39;s only valid because we allow it to be. If a product can be improved or made safer don&#39;t you feel it should be?

[hobbes]

Vidcc,

Can you think of anything going on in the world today which might be related to religious tensions?

Israel/palestine
Bin Laden/ 9/11
Saddam and the entire Middle East / the US

turn back the clock a bit, Hitler.

turn back the clock, the Crusades.

you can keep turning it back, you will find the same problem.


Religion creates walls which are not amenable to arbitration.

We need a nice "visitation" from above to slap all our ass, tell us what God really wants and tells us to play nice. As we fumble around now, each society attempting to describe what God is, conflicts will always recur when ones version doesn&#39;t mesh with anothers.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.

[Cyclepath]

Originally posted by vidcc@8 May 2004 - 01:18
evey sperm is a possible life..

The Meaning of Life...


http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/mol/every-sp.mp3

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+8 May 2004 - 01:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 8 May 2004 - 01:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature. [/b][/quote]
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+8 May 2004 - 02:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 8 May 2004 - 02:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:46
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob. [/b][/quote]
As indeed have I, in a rather sad way.

One can only hope that he has not chosen to pander to the lowest common denominator.

[vidcc]

i didn&#39;t deny that religion (or choice of which religion) has caused problems, i was talking about the "serious" issues raised, such as landmines, gun control and slavery. My bad i was looking at your post in the vein of these issues rather than other unmentioned issues.
That said taking your points on board do you not feel that if our parents and grandparents decided to just accept things such as Hitler back then as many here are suggesting we should accept things that go on today the world would be a better or worse place?
Perhaps the original post would have been better edited to take out the "barbie" issues but i decided to leave it in tact so as not to be seen as biased.
Obviously kiwi fruit is far more an important issue to some than 150 countries known to use torture.

[Cyclepath]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+8 May 2004 - 01:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 8 May 2004 - 01:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by chalice@8 May 2004 - 02:50

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:46
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob.
As indeed have I, in a rather sad way.

One can only hope that he has not chosen to pander to the lowest common denominator. [/b][/quote]
Sycophantic obsequiousness

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Cyclepath+8 May 2004 - 03:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cyclepath @ 8 May 2004 - 03:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:53

Originally posted by chalice@8 May 2004 - 02:50

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:46
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob.
As indeed have I, in a rather sad way.

One can only hope that he has not chosen to pander to the lowest common denominator.
Sycophantic obsequiousness [/b][/quote]
No thanks, but I appreciate the offer.

[chalice]

Welcome back, Rampant Rabbit.

[chalice]

Originally posted by Cyclepath+8 May 2004 - 02:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cyclepath @ 8 May 2004 - 02:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:53

Originally posted by chalice@8 May 2004 - 02:50

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:46
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob.
As indeed have I, in a rather sad way.

One can only hope that he has not chosen to pander to the lowest common denominator.
Sycophantic obsequiousness [/b][/quote]
Extraneous verbiage. That&#39;s like saying "servile servants".

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+8 May 2004 - 03:33--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 8 May 2004 - 03:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Cyclepath@8 May 2004 - 02:00

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:53

Originally posted by chalice@8 May 2004 - 02:50

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:46
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@8 May 2004 - 02:04

Etc., etc....blah,blah,blah.
I&#39;m with the hobbes of last night on this one.
Today&#39;s more contrite and judicious hobbes wimped out.

This is pure drivel.

Are you suggesting that bunny boy may have chosen to be politically correct, or to back off from offending the hard of thinking.

Surely not, in my experience the chap tells it as he sees it and does not pander to those with delusions of adequacy.

Are we now be in the presence of a more mellow and understanding rabbit. That would be such a shame. I had always valued the chaps honesty, never thinking that he would temper his posts, for fear of offending the sensitive of nature.
I hope not.

I&#39;ve always enjoyed Hobbes&#39;s honest and forthright slaps in the gob.
As indeed have I, in a rather sad way.

One can only hope that he has not chosen to pander to the lowest common denominator.
Sycophantic obsequiousness
Extraneous verbiage. That&#39;s like saying "servile servants". [/b][/quote]
Or tautology

[hobbes]

Let me summarize the thread (with additions):

Me: The book is crap

Vidcc: But the point is that the world could be made better, or should we accept it as it is.

Me: We should always strive to improve, but it is very difficult to actually CHANGE the world because problems often shift onto others. My example was the industrial revolution in the US and the parallel to what is happening in India today.

Vidcc: so that&#39;s it?

Me: No, one giant step would be a unified religion. Yes, I know that does not change human nature, but when you place divine rules in front of people, who believe, it WILL affect behavior. You use fear to modify their actions. SAcrifice now for a greater reward in the afterlife. ALL religions are based on this.

A unified religion would actually erase EACH and EVERY diety based conflict, it would create a single tethering point which would bind the entire planet. One God tells us to act by "I&#39;m third mentality". In whatever you do consider how your actions will effect God first, Others second, and Yourself third. The religion should be tolerant and ask for forgivness and not punishment for those Athiests and Agnostics who turn away. They should be pitied, not crucified.

This would be a huge start to a world in which we start to thinking about the planet as a whole and not just about our country.

For we Athiest and Agnostics, as long as governments maintain separation between the church and the state, we don&#39;t really cause much of a ruckus.


To think that picking up landmines is how to improve the planet is to miss what the actual source is. You can pick up all the landmines you want, someone will just be placing them somewhere else.

It is really quite easy to control drugs, teenage pregnancy, guns. Just take away people&#39;s freedoms like they do in China or like the Taliban did with opium. We could start shooting drunk drivers at the road side.

Freedom is something we treasure, but it is also something that requires people to act responsibily and many don&#39;t.

Problems like guns, drugs and teenage pregnancy are what we are accepting by attempting to maintain the greatest individual freedoms.


Also, if you decide that we should devise a global system of government in which all are equally provided for and more work equal no additional reward, you will find a lazy stagnant world, much like a VA hospital.

Human greed does drive innovation and technologic progress.

For every give, there is a take. Human nature is tightly ingrained and making a NET change is quite difficult.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by vidcc@7 May 2004 - 19:18
j2 you may have a point about "the way things are" in your quote, but it&#39;s only valid because we allow it to be.&nbsp; If a product can be improved or made safer don&#39;t you feel it should be?
I haven&#39;t the slightest idea what this means, vid.

Do you posit "equality of result" is attainable, and that a properly supreme effort will effect this?

Have you by any chance conducted a successful cloning?

:huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

Okay-I&#39;ll meet fire with fire:

Here is a foolproof way to insure equality of result....

Give everyone a law degree. ;)

[chalice]

Originally posted by j2k4@8 May 2004 - 04:08
Give everyone a law degree. ;)
You can all borrow mine.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by hobbes@8 May 2004 - 04:46
Let me summarize the thread (with additions):

If I may attempt to summarize the actual book.

People drowning puppies is a bad thing, kittens are nice.

[Snee]

Originally posted by vidcc@8 May 2004 - 02:58
Obviously kiwi fruit is far more an important issue to some than 150 countries known to use torture.
I&#39;m doubting that bit about the kiwi, and if they pulled one number out of their arse, they might as well have done it with another.

And as for the rest, yes it&#39;s sad, if it&#39;s correct, but the fact that the kiwifruits and them trademark things were in there degrades the entire thing.

Maybe you really should have put this in Talk Club.

As for me critisizing religion, well, I&#39;m sorry if I stepped on any toes.

[clocker]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:55

If I may attempt to summarize the actual book.

People drowning puppies is a bad thing, kittens are nice.
I never really thought of things like that before, JP.

I guess, in a small way, that book actually has changed the world.

Gee willikers.

[chalice]

Originally posted by clocker+9 May 2004 - 00:52--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 9 May 2004 - 00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@8 May 2004 - 01:55

If I may attempt to summarize the actual book.

People drowning puppies is a bad thing, kittens are nice.
I never really thought of things like that before, JP.

I guess, in a small way, that book actually has changed the world.

Gee willikers. [/b][/quote]
Obviously, the author was not altogether in possession of the myriad conatations of the word "puppies".

[Biggles]

Drown her puppies in what? On second thoughts, I don&#39;t want to know.

Is this book selling? I can&#39;t say I have seen it in the bookshops. Or is it going to be one of those coffee table books designed to stimulate intelligent after dinner conversation without ever actually opening the thing?

On a separate note, although not a fan of Rap, I do like the song "Mass Destruction" by a band called Faithless. It covers many of these issues in an all together more immediate way (quite a catchy tune too). :)