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ruthie
05-16-2004, 11:26 PM
This says a whole lot more about the government here in the good old boys US of A . For any non-believers in the corruption, the lies, the megalomaniacal tendencies of those in the White House and Pentagon, read on. Perhaps you will understand the hatred many of us feel for the neo-cons controlling our country....ruthie


THE GRAY ZONE by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.
Issue of 2004-05-24
Posted 2004-05-15
The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfeld’s decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of élite combat units, and hurt America’s prospects in the war on terror.

According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon’s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld’s long-standing desire to wrest control of America’s clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A.

Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, “Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding.” The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfeld’s testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, “Some people think you can bullshit anyone.”

The Abu Ghraib story began, in a sense, just weeks after the September 11, 2001, attacks, with the American bombing of Afghanistan. Almost from the start, the Administration’s search for Al Qaeda members in the war zone, and its worldwide search for terrorists, came up against major command-and-control problems. For example, combat forces that had Al Qaeda targets in sight had to obtain legal clearance before firing on them. On October 7th, the night the bombing began, an unmanned Predator aircraft tracked an automobile convoy that, American intelligence believed, contained Mullah Muhammad Omar, the Taliban leader. A lawyer on duty at the United States Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, refused to authorize a strike. By the time an attack was approved, the target was out of reach. Rumsfeld was apoplectic over what he saw as a self-defeating hesitation to attack that was due to political correctness. One officer described him to me that fall as “kicking a lot of glass and breaking doors.” In November, the Washington Post reported that, as many as ten times since early October, Air Force pilots believed they’d had senior Al Qaeda and Taliban members in their sights but had been unable to act in time because of legalistic hurdles. There were similar problems throughout the world, as American Special Forces units seeking to move quickly against suspected terrorist cells were compelled to get prior approval from local American ambassadors and brief their superiors in the chain of command.

Rumsfeld reacted in his usual direct fashion: he authorized the establishment of a highly secret program that was given blanket advance approval to kill or capture and, if possible, interrogate “high value” targets in the Bush Administration’s war on terror. A special-access program, or sap—subject to the Defense Department’s most stringent level of security—was set up, with an office in a secure area of the Pentagon. The program would recruit operatives and acquire the necessary equipment, including aircraft, and would keep its activities under wraps. America’s most successful intelligence operations during the Cold War had been saps, including the Navy’s submarine penetration of underwater cables used by the Soviet high command and construction of the Air Force’s stealth bomber. All the so-called “black” programs had one element in common: the Secretary of Defense, or his deputy, had to conclude that the normal military classification restraints did not provide enough security.

“Rumsfeld’s goal was to get a capability in place to take on a high-value target—a standup group to hit quickly,” a former high-level intelligence official told me. “He got all the agencies together—the C.I.A. and the N.S.A.—to get pre-approval in place. Just say the code word and go.” The operation had across-the-board approval from Rumsfeld and from Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser. President Bush was informed of the existence of the program, the former intelligence official said.



The people assigned to the program worked by the book, the former intelligence official told me. They created code words, and recruited, after careful screening, highly trained commandos and operatives from America’s élite forces—Navy seals, the Army’s Delta Force, and the C.I.A.’s paramilitary experts. They also asked some basic questions: “Do the people working the problem have to use aliases? Yes. Do we need dead drops for the mail? Yes. No traceability and no budget. And some special-access programs are never fully briefed to Congress.”

In theory, the operation enabled the Bush Administration to respond immediately to time-sensitive intelligence: commandos crossed borders without visas and could interrogate terrorism suspects deemed too important for transfer to the military’s facilities at Guantánamo, Cuba. They carried out instant interrogations—using force if necessary—at secret C.I.A. detention centers scattered around the world. The intelligence would be relayed to the sap command center in the Pentagon in real time, and sifted for those pieces of information critical to the “white,” or overt, world.

Fewer than two hundred operatives and officials, including Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, were “completely read into the program,” the former intelligence official said. The goal was to keep the operation protected. “We’re not going to read more people than necessary into our heart of darkness,” he said. “The rules are ‘Grab whom you must. Do what you want.’”

One Pentagon official who was deeply involved in the program was Stephen Cambone, who was named Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in March, 2003. The office was new; it was created as part of Rumsfeld’s reorganization of the Pentagon. Cambone was unpopular among military and civilian intelligence bureaucrats in the Pentagon, essentially because he had little experience in running intelligence programs, though in 1998 he had served as staff director for a committee, headed by Rumsfeld, that warned of an emerging ballistic-missile threat to the United States. He was known instead for his closeness to Rumsfeld. “Remember Henry II—‘Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?’” the senior C.I.A. official said to me, with a laugh, last week. “Whatever Rumsfeld whimsically says, Cambone will do ten times that much.”

Cambone was a strong advocate for war against Iraq. He shared Rumsfeld’s disdain for the analysis and assessments proffered by the C.I.A., viewing them as too cautious, and chafed, as did Rumsfeld, at the C.I.A.’s inability, before the Iraq war, to state conclusively that Saddam Hussein harbored weapons of mass destruction. Cambone’s military assistant, Army Lieutenant General William G. (Jerry) Boykin, was also controversial. Last fall, he generated unwanted headlines after it was reported that, in a speech at an Oregon church, he equated the Muslim world with Satan.

Early in his tenure, Cambone provoked a bureaucratic battle within the Pentagon by insisting that he be given control of all special-access programs that were relevant to the war on terror. Those programs, which had been viewed by many in the Pentagon as sacrosanct, were monitored by Kenneth deGraffenreid, who had experience in counter-intelligence programs. Cambone got control, and deGraffenreid subsequently left the Pentagon. Asked for comment on this story, a Pentagon spokesman said, “I will not discuss any covert programs; however, Dr. Cambone did not assume his position as the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence until March 7, 2003, and had no involvement in the decision-making process regarding interrogation procedures in Iraq or anywhere else.”

In mid-2003, the special-access program was regarded in the Pentagon as one of the success stories of the war on terror. “It was an active program,” the former intelligence official told me. “It’s been the most important capability we have for dealing with an imminent threat. If we discover where Osama bin Laden is, we can get him. And we can remove an existing threat with a real capability to hit the United States—and do so without visibility.” Some of its methods were troubling and could not bear close scrutiny, however.

By then, the war in Iraq had begun. The sap was involved in some assignments in Iraq, the former official said. C.I.A. and other American Special Forces operatives secretly teamed up to hunt for Saddam Hussein and—without success—for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. But they weren’t able to stop the evolving insurgency.



In the first months after the fall of Baghdad, Rumsfeld and his aides still had a limited view of the insurgency, seeing it as little more than the work of Baathist “dead-enders,” criminal gangs, and foreign terrorists who were Al Qaeda followers. The Administration measured its success in the war by how many of those on its list of the fifty-five most wanted members of the old regime—reproduced on playing cards—had been captured. Then, in August, 2003, terror bombings in Baghdad hit the Jordanian Embassy, killing nineteen people, and the United Nations headquarters, killing twenty-three people, including Sergio Vieira de Mello, the head of the U.N. mission. On August 25th, less than a week after the U.N. bombing, Rumsfeld acknowledged, in a talk before the Veterans of Foreign Wars, that “the dead-enders are still with us.” He went on, “There are some today who are surprised that there are still pockets of resistance in Iraq, and they suggest that this represents some sort of failure on the part of the Coalition. But this is not the case.” Rumsfeld compared the insurgents with those true believers who “fought on during and after the defeat of the Nazi regime in Germany.” A few weeks later—and five months after the fall of Baghdad—the Defense Secretary declared,“It is, in my view, better to be dealing with terrorists in Iraq than in the United States.”

Inside the Pentagon, there was a growing realization that the war was going badly. The increasingly beleaguered and baffled Army leadership was telling reporters that the insurgents consisted of five thousand Baathists loyal to Saddam Hussein. “When you understand that they’re organized in a cellular structure,” General John Abizaid, the head of the Central Command, declared, “that . . . they have access to a lot of money and a lot of ammunition, you’ll understand how dangerous they are.”

The American military and intelligence communities were having little success in penetrating the insurgency. One internal report prepared for the U.S. military, made available to me, concluded that the insurgents’“strategic and operational intelligence has proven to be quite good.” According to the study:

Their ability to attack convoys, other vulnerable targets and particular individuals has been the result of painstaking surveillance and reconnaissance. Inside information has been passed on to insurgent cells about convoy/troop movements and daily habits of Iraqis working with coalition from within the Iraqi security services, primarily the Iraqi Police force which is rife with sympathy for the insurgents, Iraqi ministries and from within pro-insurgent individuals working with the CPA’s so-called Green Zone.


The study concluded, “Politically, the U.S. has failed to date. Insurgencies can be fixed or ameliorated by dealing with what caused them in the first place. The disaster that is the reconstruction of Iraq has been the key cause of the insurgency. There is no legitimate government, and it behooves the Coalition Provisional Authority to absorb the sad but unvarnished fact that most Iraqis do not see the Governing Council”—the Iraqi body appointed by the C.P.A.—“as the legitimate authority. Indeed, they know that the true power is the CPA.”

By the fall, a military analyst told me, the extent of the Pentagon’s political and military misjudgments was clear. Donald Rumsfeld’s “dead-enders” now included not only Baathists but many marginal figures as well—thugs and criminals who were among the tens of thousands of prisoners freed the previous fall by Saddam as part of a prewar general amnesty. Their desperation was not driving the insurgency; it simply made them easy recruits for those who were. The analyst said, “We’d killed and captured guys who had been given two or three hundred dollars to ‘pray and spray’”—that is, shoot randomly and hope for the best. “They weren’t really insurgents but down-and-outers who were paid by wealthy individuals sympathetic to the insurgency.” In many cases, the paymasters were Sunnis who had been members of the Baath Party. The analyst said that the insurgents “spent three or four months figuring out how we operated and developing their own countermeasures. If that meant putting up a hapless guy to go and attack a convoy and see how the American troops responded, they’d do it.” Then, the analyst said, “the clever ones began to get in on the action.”

By contrast, according to the military report, the American and Coalition forces knew little about the insurgency: “Human intelligence is poor or lacking . . . due to the dearth of competence and expertise. . . . The intelligence effort is not coördinated since either too many groups are involved in gathering intelligence or the final product does not get to the troops in the field in a timely manner.” The success of the war was at risk; something had to be done to change the dynamic.



The solution, endorsed by Rumsfeld and carried out by Stephen Cambone, was to get tough with those Iraqis in the Army prison system who were suspected of being insurgents. A key player was Major General Geoffrey Miller, the commander of the detention and interrogation center at Guantánamo, who had been summoned to Baghdad in late August to review prison interrogation procedures. The internal Army report on the abuse charges, written by Major General Antonio Taguba in February, revealed that Miller urged that the commanders in Baghdad change policy and place military intelligence in charge of the prison. The report quoted Miller as recommending that “detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation.”

Miller’s concept, as it emerged in recent Senate hearings, was to “Gitmoize” the prison system in Iraq—to make it more focussed on interrogation. He also briefed military commanders in Iraq on the interrogation methods used in Cuba—methods that could, with special approval, include sleep deprivation, exposure to extremes of cold and heat, and placing prisoners in “stress positions” for agonizing lengths of time. (The Bush Administration had unilaterally declared Al Qaeda and other captured members of international terrorist networks to be illegal combatants, and not eligible for the protection of the Geneva Conventions.)

Rumsfeld and Cambone went a step further, however: they expanded the scope of the sap, bringing its unconventional methods to Abu Ghraib. The commandos were to operate in Iraq as they had in Afghanistan. The male prisoners could be treated roughly, and exposed to sexual humiliation.

“They weren’t getting anything substantive from the detainees in Iraq,” the former intelligence official told me. “No names. Nothing that they could hang their hat on. Cambone says, I’ve got to crack this thing and I’m tired of working through the normal chain of command. I’ve got this apparatus set up—the black special-access program—and I’m going in hot. So he pulls the switch, and the electricity begins flowing last summer. And it’s working. We’re getting a picture of the insurgency in Iraq and the intelligence is flowing into the white world. We’re getting good stuff. But we’ve got more targets”—prisoners in Iraqi jails—“than people who can handle them.”

Cambone then made another crucial decision, the former intelligence official told me: not only would he bring the sap’s rules into the prisons; he would bring some of the Army military-intelligence officers working inside the Iraqi prisons under the sap’sauspices. “So here are fundamentally good soldiers—military-intelligence guys—being told that no rules apply,” the former official, who has extensive knowledge of the special-access programs, added. “And, as far as they’re concerned, this is a covert operation, and it’s to be kept within Defense Department channels.”

The military-police prison guards, the former official said, included “recycled hillbillies from Cumberland, Maryland.” He was referring to members of the 372nd Military Police Company. Seven members of the company are now facing charges for their role in the abuse at Abu Ghraib. “How are these guys from Cumberland going to know anything? The Army Reserve doesn’t know what it’s doing.”

Who was in charge of Abu Ghraib—whether military police or military intelligence—was no longer the only question that mattered. Hard-core special operatives, some of them with aliases, were working in the prison. The military police assigned to guard the prisoners wore uniforms, but many others—military intelligence officers, contract interpreters, C.I.A. officers, and the men from the special-access program—wore civilian clothes. It was not clear who was who, even to Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, then the commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, and the officer ostensibly in charge. “I thought most of the civilians there were interpreters, but there were some civilians that I didn’t know,” Karpinski told me. “I called them the disappearing ghosts. I’d seen them once in a while at Abu Ghraib and then I’d see them months later. They were nice—they’d always call out to me and say, ‘Hey, remember me? How are you doing?’” The mysterious civilians, she said, were “always bringing in somebody for interrogation or waiting to collect somebody going out.” Karpinski added that she had no idea who was operating in her prison system. (General Taguba found that Karpinski’s leadership failures contributed to the abuses.)

By fall, according to the former intelligence official, the senior leadership of the C.I.A. had had enough. “They said, ‘No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistan—pre-approved for operations against high-value terrorist targets—and now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets’”—the sort of prisoners who populate the Iraqi jails. “The C.I.A.’s legal people objected,” and the agency ended its sap involvement in Abu Ghraib, the former official said.

The C.I.A.’s complaints were echoed throughout the intelligence community. There was fear that the situation at Abu Ghraib would lead to the exposure of the secret sap, and thereby bring an end to what had been, before Iraq, a valuable cover operation. “This was stupidity,” a government consultant told me. “You’re taking a program that was operating in the chaos of Afghanistan against Al Qaeda, a stateless terror group, and bringing it into a structured, traditional war zone. Sooner or later, the commandos would bump into the legal and moral procedures of a conventional war with an Army of a hundred and thirty-five thousand soldiers.”

The former senior intelligence official blamed hubris for the Abu Ghraib disaster. “There’s nothing more exhilarating for a pissant Pentagon civilian than dealing with an important national security issue without dealing with military planners, who are always worried about risk,” he told me. “What could be more boring than needing the coöperation of logistical planners?” The only difficulty, the former official added, is that, “as soon as you enlarge the secret program beyond the oversight capability of experienced people, you lose control. We’ve never had a case where a special-access program went sour—and this goes back to the Cold War.”

In a separate interview, a Pentagon consultant, who spent much of his career directly involved with special-access programs, spread the blame. “The White House subcontracted this to the Pentagon, and the Pentagon subcontracted it to Cambone,” he said. “This is Cambone’s deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program.” When it came to the interrogation operation at Abu Ghraib, he said, Rumsfeld left the details to Cambone. Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable, the consultant added, “but he’s responsible for the checks and balances. The issue is that, since 9/11, we’ve changed the rules on how we deal with terrorism, and created conditions where the ends justify the means.”



Last week, statements made by one of the seven accused M.P.s, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who is expected to plead guilty, were released. In them, he claimed that senior commanders in his unit would have stopped the abuse had they witnessed it. One of the questions that will be explored at any trial, however, is why a group of Army Reserve military policemen, most of them from small towns, tormented their prisoners as they did, in a manner that was especially humiliating for Iraqi men.

The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March, 2003, invasion of Iraq. One book that was frequently cited was “The Arab Mind,” a study of Arab culture and psychology, first published in 1973, by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist who taught at, among other universities, Columbia and Princeton, and who died in 1996. The book includes a twenty-five-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. “The segregation of the sexes, the veiling of the women . . . and all the other minute rules that govern and restrict contact between men and women, have the effect of making sex a prime mental preoccupation in the Arab world,” Patai wrote. Homosexual activity, “or any indication of homosexual leanings, as with all other expressions of sexuality, is never given any publicity. These are private affairs and remain in private.” The Patai book, an academic told me, was “the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior.” In their discussions, he said, two themes emerged—“one, that Arabs only understand force and, two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation.”

The government consultant said that there may have been a serious goal, in the beginning, behind the sexual humiliation and the posed photographs. It was thought that some prisoners would do anything—including spying on their associates—to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos to family and friends. The government consultant said, “I was told that the purpose of the photographs was to create an army of informants, people you could insert back in the population.” The idea was that they would be motivated by fear of exposure, and gather information about pending insurgency action, the consultant said. If so, it wasn’t effective; the insurgency continued to grow.

“This shit has been brewing for months,” the Pentagon consultant who has dealt with saps told me. “You don’t keep prisoners naked in their cell and then let them get bitten by dogs. This is sick.” The consultant explained that he and his colleagues, all of whom had served for years on active duty in the military, had been appalled by the misuse of Army guard dogs inside Abu Ghraib. “We don’t raise kids to do things like that. When you go after Mullah Omar, that’s one thing. But when you give the authority to kids who don’t know the rules, that’s another.”

In 2003, Rumsfeld’s apparent disregard for the requirements of the Geneva Conventions while carrying out the war on terror had led a group of senior military legal officers from the Judge Advocate General’s (jag) Corps to pay two surprise visits within five months to Scott Horton, who was then chairman of the New York City Bar Association’s Committee on International Human Rights. “They wanted us to challenge the Bush Administration about its standards for detentions and interrogation,” Horton told me. “They were urging us to get involved and speak in a very loud voice. It came pretty much out of the blue. The message was that conditions are ripe for abuse, and it’s going to occur.” The military officials were most alarmed about the growing use of civilian contractors in the interrogation process, Horton recalled. “They said there was an atmosphere of legal ambiguity being created as a result of a policy decision at the highest levels in the Pentagon. The jag officers were being cut out of the policy formulation process.” They told him that, with the war on terror, a fifty-year history of exemplary application of the Geneva Conventions had come to an end.



The abuses at Abu Ghraib were exposed on January 13th, when Joseph Darby, a young military policeman assigned to Abu Ghraib, reported the wrongdoing to the Army’s Criminal Investigations Division. He also turned over a CD full of photographs. Within three days, a report made its way to Donald Rumsfeld, who informed President Bush.

The inquiry presented a dilemma for the Pentagon. The C.I.D. had to be allowed to continue, the former intelligence official said. “You can’t cover it up. You have to prosecute these guys for being off the reservation. But how do you prosecute them when they were covered by the special-access program? So you hope that maybe it’ll go away.” The Pentagon’s attitude last January, he said, was “Somebody got caught with some photos. What’s the big deal? Take care of it.” Rumsfeld’s explanation to the White House, the official added, was reassuring: “‘We’ve got a glitch in the program. We’ll prosecute it.’ The cover story was that some kids got out of control.”

In their testimony before Congress last week, Rumsfeld and Cambone struggled to convince the legislators that Miller’s visit to Baghdad in late August had nothing to do with the subsequent abuse. Cambone sought to assure the Senate Armed Services Committee that the interplay between Miller and Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, had only a casual connection to his office. Miller’s recommendations, Cambone said, were made to Sanchez. His own role, he said, was mainly to insure that the “flow of intelligence back to the commands” was “efficient and effective.” He added that Miller’s goal was “to provide a safe, secure and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence.”

It was a hard sell. Senator Hillary Clinton, Democrat of New York, posed the essential question facing the senators:

If, indeed, General Miller was sent from Guantánamo to Iraq for the purpose of acquiring more actionable intelligence from detainees, then it is fair to conclude that the actions that are at point here in your report [on abuses at Abu Ghraib] are in some way connected to General Miller’s arrival and his specific orders, however they were interpreted, by those MPs and the military intelligence that were involved.. . .Therefore, I for one don’t believe I yet have adequate information from Mr. Cambone and the Defense Department as to exactly what General Miller’s orders were . . . how he carried out those orders, and the connection between his arrival in the fall of ’03 and the intensity of the abuses that occurred afterward.


Sometime before the Abu Ghraib abuses became public, the former intelligence official told me, Miller was “read in”—that is, briefed—on the special-access operation. In April, Miller returned to Baghdad to assume control of the Iraqi prisons; once the scandal hit, with its glaring headlines, General Sanchez presented him to the American and international media as the general who would clean up the Iraqi prison system and instill respect for the Geneva Conventions. “His job is to save what he can,” the former official said. “He’s there to protect the program while limiting any loss of core capability.” As for Antonio Taguba, the former intelligence official added, “He goes into it not knowing shit. And then: ‘Holy cow! What’s going on?’”

If General Miller had been summoned by Congress to testify, he, like Rumsfeld and Cambone, would not have been able to mention the special-access program. “If you give away the fact that a special-access program exists,”the former intelligence official told me, “you blow the whole quick-reaction program.”

One puzzling aspect of Rumsfeld’s account of his initial reaction to news of the Abu Ghraib investigation was his lack of alarm and lack of curiosity. One factor may have been recent history: there had been many previous complaints of prisoner abuse from organization like Human Rights Watch and the International Red Cross, and the Pentagon had weathered them with ease. Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee that he had not been provided with details of alleged abuses until late March, when he read the specific charges. “You read it, as I say, it’s one thing. You see these photographs and it’s just unbelievable. . . . It wasn’t three-dimensional. It wasn’t video. It wasn’t color. It was quite a different thing.” The former intelligence official said that, in his view, Rumsfeld and other senior Pentagon officials had not studied the photographs because “they thought what was in there was permitted under the rules of engagement,” as applied to the sap. “The photos,” he added, “turned out to be the result of the program run amok.”

The former intelligence official made it clear that he was not alleging that Rumsfeld or General Myers knew that atrocities were committed. But, he said, “it was their permission granted to do the sap, generically, and there was enough ambiguity, which permitted the abuses.”

This official went on, “The black guys”—those in the Pentagon’s secret program—“say we’ve got to accept the prosecution. They’re vaccinated from the reality.” The sap is still active, and “the United States is picking up guys for interrogation. The question is, how do they protect the quick-reaction force without blowing its cover?” The program was protected by the fact that no one on the outside was allowed to know of its existence. “If you even give a hint that you’re aware of a black program that you’re not read into, you lose your clearances,” the former official said. “Nobody will talk. So the only people left to prosecute are those who are undefended—the poor kids at the end of the food chain.”

The most vulnerable senior official is Cambone. “The Pentagon is trying now to protect Cambone, and doesn’t know how to do it,” the former intelligence official said.



Last week, the government consultant, who has close ties to many conservatives, defended the Administration’s continued secrecy about the special-access program in Abu Ghraib. “Why keep it black?” the consultant asked. “Because the process is unpleasant. It’s like making sausage—you like the result but you don’t want to know how it was made. Also, you don’t want the Iraqi public, and the Arab world, to know. Remember, we went to Iraq to democratize the Middle East. The last thing you want to do is let the Arab world know how you treat Arab males in prison.”

The former intelligence official told me he feared that one of the disastrous effects of the prison-abuse scandal would be the undermining of legitimate operations in the war on terror, which had already suffered from the draining of resources into Iraq. He portrayed Abu Ghraib as “a tumor” on the war on terror. He said, “As long as it’s benign and contained, the Pentagon can deal with the photo crisis without jeopardizing the secret program. As soon as it begins to grow, with nobody to diagnose it—it becomes a malignant tumor.”

The Pentagon consultant made a similar point. Cambone and his superiors, the consultant said, “created the conditions that allowed transgressions to take place. And now we’re going to end up with another Church Commission”—the 1975 Senate committee on intelligence, headed by Senator Frank Church, of Idaho, which investigated C.I.A. abuses during the previous two decades. Abu Ghraib had sent the message that the Pentagon leadership was unable to handle its discretionary power. “When the shit hits the fan, as it did on 9/11, how do you push the pedal?” the consultant asked. “You do it selectively and with intelligence.”

“Congress is going to get to the bottom of this,” the Pentagon consultant said. “You have to demonstrate that there are checks and balances in the system.” He added, “When you live in a world of gray zones, you have to have very clear red lines.”

Senator John McCain, of Arizona, said, “If this is true, it certainly increases the dimension of this issue and deserves significant scrutiny. I will do all possible to get to the bottom of this, and all other allegations.”

“In an odd way,” Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, said, “the sexual abuses at Abu Ghraib have become a diversion for the prisoner abuse and the violation of the Geneva Conventions that is authorized.” Since September 11th, Roth added, the military has systematically used third-degree techniques around the world on detainees. “Some jags hate this and are horrified that the tolerance of mistreatment will come back and haunt us in the next war,” Roth told me. “We’re giving the world a ready-made excuse to ignore the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld has lowered the bar.”


The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040524fa_fact)

Rat Faced
05-16-2004, 11:58 PM
“In an odd way,” Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, said, “the sexual abuses at Abu Ghraib have become a diversion for the prisoner abuse and the violation of the Geneva Conventions that is authorized.” Since September 11th, Roth added, the military has systematically used third-degree techniques around the world on detainees. “Some jags hate this and are horrified that the tolerance of mistreatment will come back and haunt us in the next war,” Roth told me. “We’re giving the world a ready-made excuse to ignore the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld has lowered the bar.”


The obvious result is at the end.....


Nice post ruthie :)

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN
05-16-2004, 11:59 PM
;) Are Country is getting split up again just like back in the late 60s and early 70s.A Draft is all we need now.

Neo-cons controlling our country you say?Well do something.This is America.You can do alot more then Posting shit on the Net.

We are now letting thousands of Prisoners go because of all this shit.If just one of them in the Future leads to a Terrorist Attack what are you going to say then?

Long Live the Red White and Blue.The home of the Brave and the Free.

I mean.If this is the worst our Country has done then I am not that ashamed.

People want to think we are better then the rest of the World.Why?I mean we may have alot of things the World does not have but we are still Human.....just like they are.


Come November we will see who the People want running this Country.



Sorry if People do not understand.Do not understand a man who Loves his Country and still believes in her.

ruthie
05-17-2004, 12:15 AM
dude, get a grip.

"Neo-cons controlling our country you say?Well do something.This is America.You can do alot more then Posting shit on the Net."

Um, do you seriously think you know me enough to assume that is all I do? Post shit on the net? Don't read what ain't there, bro. I've been around lots longer then you, and I've been protesting shit since the 70's.

"We are now letting thousands of Prisoners go because of all this shit.If just one of them in the Future leads to a Terrorist Attack what are you going to say then?"

Um, the other day, prisoners amounting in the hundreds were released...not thousands. Let us not forget that 70 - 90 percent of those held were "mistakenly" arrested. The ends don't justify the means. do not forget, it wasn't the Iraqi's who did 9/11.

"I mean.If this is the worst our Country has done then I am not that ashamed."

does this mean you are "a little" ashamed?

"Come November we will see who the People want running this Country."

Well, since Gore was elected by popular vote, screw that.

"Sorry if People do not understand.Do not understand a man who Loves his Country and still believes in her. "

You, like many others, miss the point...to be critical of the government, and say so IS FREEDOM, and a patriotic responsibility, as opposed to be a sheep led to the slaughter. To detest everything the neo-con schmucks in the House of Blight (white house) is my right. I abhor what they stand for...this is a bullshit war based on bullshit.

FuNkY CaPrIcOrN
05-17-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by ruthie@16 May 2004 - 19:23
You, like many others, miss the point...to be critical of the government, and say so IS FREEDOM, and a patriotic responsibility, as opposed to be a sheep led to the slaughter. To detest everything the neo-con schmucks in the House of Blight (white house) is my right. I abhor what they stand for...this is a bullshit war based on bullshit.
;) You are right.You have spoken and so have I.Long live that Freedom. :)

Tikibonbon
05-17-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by ruthie@17 May 2004 - 00:23
To detest everything the neo-con schmucks in the House of Blight (white house) is my right.
yes, it is your right, just like it is fc's right to believe what he wants, so get off your it's my right high horse.

ruthie
05-17-2004, 12:44 AM
here is another little tidbit of what the neo-cons do, approve of, and attempt to defend. There is no defense.


US guards 'filmed beatings' at terror camp
Senator urges action as Briton reveals Guantanamo abuse

David Rose and Gaby Hinsliff
Sunday May 16, 2004

The Observer

Dozens of videotapes of American guards allegedly engaged in brutal attacks on Guantanamo Bay detainees have been stored and catalogued at the camp, an investigation by The Observer has revealed.
The disclosures, made in an interview with Tarek Dergoul, the fifth British prisoner freed last March, who has been too traumatised to speak until now, prompted demands last night by senior politicians on both sides of the Atlantic to make the videos available immediately.

They say that if the contents are as shocking as Dergoul claims, they will provide final proof that brutality against detainees has become an institutionalised feature of America's war on terror.

In the wake of the furore over the abuses photographed at Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has continued to insist they were the work of a few rogue soldiers, and not a systemic problem.

The disclosures come as the top American commander in Iraq, Lieutenant-General Ricardo Sanchez, announced he has barred all coercive interrogation practices, including forcing prisoners into stress positions for long periods and disrupting their sleep, except in very rare circumstances.

British military police made four arrests over allegations that British troops abused Iraqi prisoners. All four men were later released without charge, pending fur ther interviews. It is the case of Dergoul, however, that is likely to be the most damaging. The 26-year-old, from Mile End in east London, spent 22 months at Guantanamo Bay from May 2002. Today he tells The Observer of repeated assaults by Camp Delta's punishment squad, known as the Extreme Reaction Force or ERF.

Their attacks, he says, would be prompted by minor disciplinary infractions, such as refusing to agree to the third cell search in a day - which he describes as an act of deliberate provocation.

Dergoul tells of one assault by a five-man ERF in shocking terms: 'They pepper-sprayed me in the face, and I started vomiting. They pinned me down and attacked me, poking their fingers in my eyes, and forced my head into the toilet pan and flushed.

'They tied me up like a beast and then they were kneeling on me, kicking and punching. Finally they dragged me out of the cell in chains, into the rec[reation] yard, and shaved my beard, my hair, my eyebrows.'

After their release last March, Shafiq Rasul, Asif Iqbal and Ruhal Ahmed, the so-called Tipton Three from Staffordshire, told of similar ERF attacks.

Rasul said they led to a new verb being coined by detainees: 'to be ERFed'. That, he said, meant being slammed against a floor by a soldier wielding a riot shield, pinned to the ground and beaten up by five armed men.

However, it is Dergoul who now reveals that every time the ERFs were deployed, a sixth team member recorded on digital video everything that happened.

Lieutenant Colonel Leon Sumpter, the Guantanamo Joint Task Force spokesman, confirmed this last night, saying all ERF actions were filmed so they could be 'reviewed' by senior officers. All the tapes are kept in an archive there, he said. He refused to say how many times the ERF squads had been used and would not discuss their training or rules of engagement, saying: 'We do not discuss operational aspects of the Joint Task Force mission.'

The Observer can also now disclose that a British military interrogator posted to the now notorious Abu Ghraib abuse jail raised the alarm about maltreatment of detainees by US troops as long ago as last March.

While ministers insisted last week that the three Britons working in the jail did not see any of the systematic and sadistic abuse, an unnamed lieutenant - a debriefer trained to deal only with co-operative witnesses - made an official complaint to US authorities after seeing what he considered to be 'rough handling' of prisoners.

But it is the revelations about Guantanamo Bay that are the most damaging for a White House desperately trying to draw a line under the Iraq abuse allegations.

Senator Patrick Leahy, the senior Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, who has been an outspoken critic of the Abu Ghraib abuse, said he would demand that Rumsfeld must produce the videos this week.

'Congressional oversight of this administration has been lax in many areas, including detention policy in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo,' Leahy said. 'It is past time for that to change. If photos, videotapes or any other evidence exists that can help establish whether or not there has been mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, it should be provided without delay to Congress.

'I have asked the Pentagon for sufficient information to allow Congress to evaluate the effectiveness and propriety of the treatment of those in our custody. Pentagon officials owe the Congress a comprehensive response. I have made clear that compliance must include any tapes or photos of the activities of the ERF or any other military or intelligence units there.'

In London, Menzies Campbell, the Liberal Democrat deputy leader, said: 'The Government must demand that these videos be delivered up, and the truth of these very serious allegations properly determined once and for all.

'The videos provide an unequalled opportunity to check the veracity of what Mr Dergoul and the other former detainees are saying.'

from Guardian Unlimited (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1217973,00.html)

ruthie
05-17-2004, 12:52 AM
yes, it is your right, just like it is fc's right to believe what he wants, so get off your it's my right high horse.



Don't project, dude. Not on any high horse. Someone comes on and tells me to do more then post shit on the net....what do you think I should say....sorry?

Never said it wasn't his right to believe what he wants. :lol:

Alex H
05-17-2004, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by FuNkY CaPrIcOrN@17 May 2004 - 00:07
If this is the worst our Country has done then I am not that ashamed.
Your shame is having none.

scroff
05-17-2004, 03:22 AM
If just one of them in the Future leads to a Terrorist Attack what are you going to say then?

Interesting reply.... :unsure:

I'd say, "See? I told you invading Iraq would lead to more terrorists!"

Especially considering that none of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were Iraqi.

They were Saudis, Jordanians, and Egyptians, all of whom just happen to be our good bosom buddies. <_<

But hell, you can be assured there are Iraqi terrorists now. :-"

longboneslinger
06-12-2004, 05:35 PM
Especially considering that none of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were Iraqi.

They were Saudis, Jordanians, and Egyptians, all of whom just happen to be our good bosom buddies.&nbsp;


BINGO&#33;&#33;

Misstreatment of prisoners can in no way be condoned. I&#39;ll admit that it&#39;s hard to win when we play by a set of &#39;rules&#39; and they have none but this is no excuse. That this has happened it all the wars man has faught still is no excuse. War is hell, and soldiers, whether man or woman, can become like beasts in a bestial enviroment. Still no excuse.

I will state that in the case of Saddam and Osama, for example, i&#39;d be willing to entertain the notion looking the other way. THey aren&#39;t, in my opinion, human. They forfitted that right with the murder of thousands of innocent human beings. Terrorists, as a whole, are mad-dogs. You don&#39;t placate or try to negotiate with rabid animals. You take them out for the good of humanity. This is cold, but so are they. If they are &#39;handled&#39; quitely, then so much the better. The world has far to many martyrs now.

As a note to my fellow Americans: We need to wake up. The government, Republicans and Democrats both, including the President, have sold out the people. They consider us cattle to be milked for the neccessary monies to keep themselves in power. Before you get to that level of power, you&#39;ve already sold your soul and when you get there, the buyers collect.

As for Gore winning the popular vote, I think the Republicans just cheated better than the Democrats. Both were cheating. Both were throwing money away, our money, mostly, to elect their canidate.

That&#39;s my opinion for what it&#39;s worth.
Later taters,
BoNe

PS: there are no such things as &#39;Federal dollars&#39;, those are OUR dollars&#33; Stop government handouts and socialism be damned&#33;

j2k4
06-12-2004, 06:18 PM
Some impressively long posts in this thread.

Odd that none of them mentioned Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, or Americans being burned, dragged and hanged.

Do as you like to Americans, but Allah forbid a raping, bombing, murdering terrorist be seen naked. <_<

Why was their nakedness a problem?

Religion?

If separation of church and state is such a good thing that it should be visited on Iraq regardless of their feelings about democracy, then, hell-no harm, no foul, I say.

Bottom line:

If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?

Abu Ghraib (which I do not in any way condone) aside, we owe the terrorists nothing, apart from a fast-track trip to "Virginland".

Rat Faced
06-12-2004, 08:42 PM
I still do not regard the militants in Iraq terrorists..... If my country had been invaded i&#39;d be doing the same...irrespective of what i felt for the Government previously in power.


I challenge any American to say they would do otherwise if it was their country.

j2k4
06-12-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 14:50
I still do not regard the militants in Iraq terrorists..... If my country had been invaded i&#39;d be doing the same...irrespective of what i felt for the Government previously in power.


I challenge any American to say they would do otherwise if it was their country.
On what basis would you object were you, say, a Norwegian insurgent, imported for the festivities?

I haven&#39;t yet seen or heard a conclusive status report on those detainees appearing in the pictures so willingly published.

Again:

What about Nick Berg? :huh:

Rat Faced
06-12-2004, 09:17 PM
What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?



Sorry, hes a little outnumbered...

j2k4
06-12-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 15:25
What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?



Sorry, hes a little outnumbered...
I&#39;d say that depends on who&#39;s doing the estimating.

You don&#39;t trust mine, nor I yours.

What to do?

What is inarguably relevant is the previous (rightful) supposition that people died in Iraq while the U.N. sanctions were in place; less legitimate is the coincidental supposition that these deaths should be laid at the door of the U.S.

The U.S. was incapable of forcing the U.N. to adopt it&#39;s positions with regard to embargoes on Iraq; such embargoes as existed were the result of a consensus.

Neither is the U.S. responsible for the abuse of the "Oil-for-food" program, which no doubt led to more of these wrongful deaths in Iraq.

They weren&#39;t due to any lack of custodial effort on the part of the United States, or Ronald Reagan, or either of the Bushes-curiously enough, if there exists the slightest connection to the U.S., the vaguest trace seems to indicate a link between Clinton and Marc Rich.

Definite links have been established which point in a number of interesting directions, but international interest seems only to be in how the U.S. was "involved" (though it was not), and deflecting the focus from any other entity or person.

This circumstance is, by itself, the most mind-blowing example of the willful ignorance exhibited by the U.N.-loving contingent that I can imagine, and here, in the one place I choose to exchange ideas and views with others, it continually gets short-shrift.

No one seems to have the slightest interest in a scandal that points anywhere other than the U.S.

Saddam is held blameless-"If the U.S. hadn&#39;t given Saddam that nerve-gas, all those Kurds would still be alive..."

Utter bullshit.

Rat Faced
06-12-2004, 09:58 PM
Maybe you should investigate, on your own, in the sites you like to research in...I dont want to colour your judgement on this... what members of 442nd Military Police have been diagnosed with...

They werent in that area for very long....

j2k4
06-12-2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 16:06
Maybe you should investigate, on your own, in the sites you like to research in...I dont want to colour your judgement on this... what members of 442nd Military Police have been diagnosed with...

They werent in that area for very long....
What has this, true or not, to do with my post, Rat? :huh:

longboneslinger
06-12-2004, 11:00 PM
Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I&#39;m sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

The reason so many died in the last 12 years or so can be blamed on Saddam. Not the US. The UN can share some of the blame for not stepping in. But then again, Syria is, or at least was, on the board of human rights. What a joke. Hell, were US soldiers dropping peeps into chipper shredders? And joking that if you dropped them in feet first, they screamed longer? I don&#39;t recall the US gassing over 250,000 Kurds to death either&#33; I do recall that some terrorists &#39;fundamentalists&#39; killing a convoy of US citizens, setting them on fire, tossing them off bridges and decapitating them.

Put men in bestial situations and they will become beasts. Raise them to be violent and to think that wanton murder will be rewarded by God and so a man or woman becomes a terrorist. Just point them at the &#39;enemy&#39; and let&#39;m go. Or did we learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition? The Salem Witch Hunts? The Crusades? A fanatic who believes he is on a mission from God can be either a force of tremendous good or tremendous evil. Usually evil, because he/she is blinded to all but their own perceived &#39;truth&#39;.

Face it J2K4, the US will get the blame for the worlds troubles even if they have to invent &#39;facts&#39;, twist the truth and outright lie.


What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It&#39;s called &#39;collateral damage&#39; and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he&#39;ll do whatever it takes to survive. He&#39;ll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe

j2k4
06-12-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by longboneslinger@12 June 2004 - 17:08
Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I&#39;m sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

The reason so many died in the last 12 years or so can be blamed on Saddam. Not the US. The UN can share some of the blame for not stepping in. But then again, Syria is, or at least was, on the board of human rights. What a joke. Hell, were US soldiers dropping peeps into chipper shredders? And joking that if you dropped them in feet first, they screamed longer? I don&#39;t recall the US gassing over 250,000 Kurds to death either&#33; I do recall that some terrorists &#39;fundamentalists&#39; killing a convoy of US citizens, setting them on fire, tossing them off bridges and decapitating them.

Put men in bestial situations and they will become beasts. Raise them to be violent and to think that wanton murder will be rewarded by God and so a man or woman becomes a terrorist. Just point them at the &#39;enemy&#39; and let&#39;m go. Or did we learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition? The Salem Witch Hunts? The Crusades? A fanatic who believes he is on a mission from God can be either a force of tremendous good or tremendous evil. Usually evil, because he/she is blinded to all but their own perceived &#39;truth&#39;.

Face it J2K4, the US will get the blame for the worlds troubles even if they have to invent &#39;facts&#39;, twist the truth and outright lie.


What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It&#39;s called &#39;collateral damage&#39; and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he&#39;ll do whatever it takes to survive. He&#39;ll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe
Can I be president of your fan club? :D

ilw
06-12-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by j2k4@12 June 2004 - 18:26
If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?


Thats crazy imo, the war we should be fighting at the moment is one of hearts and minds not of tit for tat.


Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I&#39;m sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

I have no real problems about kicking saddam out, but the pound of flesh that Bush seems intent on taking in payment would piss me off if it were my country being liberated and it would certainly leave me dubious of any claimed altruistic motives for the war.
As for the toppling of the statue, I think that was certainly the most symbolic image of the war, but possibly from an iraqi point of view the bit where the idiotic squaddies put the american flag on his face first and only when prompted replaced it with the iraqi flag, may have been even more significant.

Rat Faced
06-12-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by longboneslinger@12 June 2004 - 23:08

What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It&#39;s called &#39;collateral damage&#39; and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he&#39;ll do whatever it takes to survive. He&#39;ll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe
Agreed.

However we werent at war at the time of the estimated 1,000,000 men women and children.

The War was also an illegal occupation, there is no moral highground...most can point to countries with bigger bastards that were in charge.

The Sudan is the worst at mo, according to experts...


Where have i said the US?

The UK were right there bombing and blocking medical aid.... and thats my country.

I am not US bashing, sorry if you think i am.

Im saying that i would do exactly the same thing in their shoes, and so i will not call them terrorists.

I still call Al Queda, Hamas, ETA etc etc terrorists...but Iraqi&#39;s fighting an invader? even with one of those invaders my own country? No.

No more than i&#39;d call the French Resistance of WWII terrorists.

j2k4
06-13-2004, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by ilw+12 June 2004 - 17:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw @ 12 June 2004 - 17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@12 June 2004 - 18:26
If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?


Thats crazy imo, the war we should be fighting at the moment is one of hearts and minds not of tit for tat.


Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I&#39;m sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

I have no real problems about kicking saddam out, but the pound of flesh that Bush seems intent on taking in payment would piss me off if it were my country being liberated and it would certainly leave me dubious of any claimed altruistic motives for the war.
As for the toppling of the statue, I think that was certainly the most symbolic image of the war, but possibly from an iraqi point of view the bit where the idiotic squaddies put the american flag on his face first and only when prompted replaced it with the iraqi flag, may have been even more significant. [/b][/quote]
Ian-

Do you seriously propose we vie for the hearts of the terrorists?

We are not killing innocent Iraqis; in fact, we are probably killing more border-crossing insurgents than anything else.

BTW: What "pound of flesh" are you referring to?

Voetsek
06-13-2004, 03:10 PM
what if all the troops pull out then who takes over time will tell

longboneslinger
06-13-2004, 06:40 PM
Ratfaced: I wasn&#39;t aiming any of my comments at you. Sorry if it seemed that way.
No more than i&#39;d call the French Resistance of WWII terrorists.
Now I am&#33;&#33; Rat, the US doesn&#39;t have a Gestopo. The crap in the prison camp doesn&#39;t put us in the same damn boat as the Nazis&#33;&#33; The Nazi&#39;s didn&#39;t try to rebuild France or remove a dictator from power and I take offense to being compared to those animals&#33; Name me one concentration camp&#33; Were are the mass murders? We stopped most of that shite. The rest is from outsiders-try looking to Syria and Iran.

Compare Iraq with a neighbor hood controlled by criminals. The people of the neighborhood, whatever their race, want help but are afraid to ask. Afraid to help when aid arrives. Why? They are afraid of the criminals, in this case thugs and terrorists.

But what "pound of flesh" are you referring to, ilw?


The War was also an illegal occupation, there is no moral highground...most can point to countries with bigger bastards that were in charge.


Which war? The first-Desert Shield? If so, you are incorrect. The US has a defense treaty with Kuwait. We were obligated to come to their aid.
If you refer to the present war in Iraq, you are again incorrect. At the end of the first conflict, Saddam signed a cease-fire. A cease-fire stating that he would, among other things, let UN inspectors have free access to search for weopons that violated the Geneva Conventions and human rights violations and a no fly-zone established around his country. In the years since Bush senior, then the Chinese disedent CLinton and now W have taken office there have been, at my last count, 17 violations of the cease fire. The first one made the invasion of Iraq perfectly legal. Thats what a cease fire is: You agree to these terms and we agree to stop kicking your ass for as long as you keep to the agreement.
As for occupation, the war end when the fighting stops. Unless it happened in the last couple of hours, I think it&#39;s still going on. If you&#39;ll check other sources than CNN you&#39;ll see what the US has done for Iraq. I really think that most of the trouble is from outsiders. The people are to afraid of these animals. After a lifetime of terror under Saddam, who can blame them?

For 12-13 years Saddam has spit in the UN&#39;s eye and not let their inspectors inspect a damn thing. Nothing was done. If you let someone like Saddam off with nothing done, why expect him ot change?

Voetsek
06-13-2004, 06:45 PM
any way the whole thing is a huge mess and will be for a very long time not wanted not liked Vietnam northern island spring to mind no where to go big mess

Rat Faced
06-13-2004, 07:44 PM
In the years since Bush senior, then the Chinese disedent CLinton and now W have taken office there have been, at my last count, 17 violations of the cease fire. The first one made the invasion of Iraq perfectly legal. Thats what a cease fire is: You agree to these terms and we agree to stop kicking your ass for as long as you keep to the agreement.


Check your facts..

US & UK planes bombed the crap out of that country for 10 years before the 2nd Iraqi conflict.... we broke the ceasefires a lot more than they did.

We also bombed water treatment works, in clear violation of the geneva convention, and stopped the equipment necessary to clean up the radioactive dust left by our Depleted Uranium shells and even basic Medical Equipment was denied as "Dual Use"....tell me, how is a syringe "Dual Use"? They gonna attack us with them in a full frontal charge?

How are antibiotics "Dual Use"?

Chlorine, needed desperatly to clean the water, as we&#39;d bombed the Water Treatment plants...Dual Use...


I never compared us to Nazi&#39;s either...

90% of Germans were not Nazi&#39;s in WWII, the German Army, less the SS etc were well respected soldiers and very honarable adversaries...the minority were the bastards, its just a shame these people were in charge too.

However, when they invaded Russia as an example... The Russians had lived in a regime much worse than Iraq. Guess which side the Russian Partisans were on?

Was it the Germans?

Or did the Partisans in all these nasty little regimes in South East Europe of the time fight against the Germans Invaders? Despite what their own Governments had been doing to them prior?

Learn by History... It doesnt matter how bad your Government is, an invader is not a Liberator... Its open season on invaders.




Yes, the way they do things are nasty... to us

But you cant judge their culture by your morals.


A lot of what you and I would do without thought is totally immoral to them and vise versa.... If you dont even understand the culture you are interfering with, then you have no business interfering in the culture.

ruthie
06-13-2004, 09:42 PM
longboneslinger
"I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation."


Do you really believe this? The US pulled down the statue, not the Iraqis. The US also draped an american flag on it, and then were told to remove it. Many journalists reported this was staged, and set up to look like a much larger crowd was there. See this page (http://media.consumercide.com/saddamstatue.html)

so you believe that the Iraqi&#39;s ad no electricity, food running water, etc? Please...simply not true. NOW, they have problems. They had water, they had electricity. Now, theyare lucky to have access to either for a few hours a day. We have disrupted these systems grossly, and the civilians are paying the price.

Read thisLife in Iraq (http://www.actionla.org/Iraq/IraqReport/life.html)

Iraq was not primitive. The coalition of the stupid have only destroyed the utilities, lives, and respect.

Rat Faced
06-13-2004, 10:23 PM
I forgot to add....


If you think that my thoughts are that all troops should be withdrawn from Iraq, you are mistaken.

The invasion is a done deal, the Iraqi&#39;s must now be protected until they can protect themselves.


HOWEVER.... The Coalition are invaders, and all coalition forces should be withdrawn and replaced by Troops that had nothing to do with the invasion, preferably from countries that were publicly against it.

These troops may be seen by the populace as peacekeepers, and not the invaders the coalition are seen as.

Sorry...had to get that in, as i believe its very important.

If we withdraw all troops, then all that will happen is the crap we see in Afganistan now... a localised central core of Law & Order, and everywhere else ruled by factions and warlords, with no Justice etc.... ie i bigger mess than the one there when we went in... again, just like afganistan.

longboneslinger
06-14-2004, 02:52 AM
Rat: Your point on Russia is well taken. As for my facts, I got most of them from a co-worker who is from Iraq. Saddly, he has since returned to his homeland. He was a great person and the antithesis of the &#39;lunatic muslims&#39; we hear so much about. The tales of Saddam and his sons tear at my heart. He has had family members killed by those who ruled there. Just remember, Hitler was known as a maniac before his stupid invasion of Rusia. Hell, invading Russia was stupid but doing it in the winter was braindead..... but the tales of the atrocities perpetrated by the SS and the Gestapo were traveling faster than the German army. The Russian people knew he was as bad as the present leadership. But your right, it was still an invasion.

As for replacing US forces with new UN troops, I&#39;ll admit that&#39;s not a bad idea. It definately has merit. IF handled properly, it could be a viable solution. I didn&#39;t, and still don&#39;t, agree with the war in Iraq. But what&#39;s done is done.

That power plants and water treatment facilities were bombed is unfortunate also. But it&#39;s still collateral damage. A main target in any war is the infrastructure: power and communications. That drugs and chlorine were in short supply, especially at the start of the war is a problem of logistics. These problems are well on the way to being fixed.

And yes Ruthie, we dirupted their facilities "grossly" and the citizens indeed pay the price. THats the way war is. Citizens always pay the price. As I said, war should be abolished. That they had water and electricity is true, to an extent. No where the level we are used to. Water quality was extremely low, many still using wells and the power was unreliable at best. Thats first hand from an Iraqi who supports the fall of Saddam as most Iraqi&#39;s in America and elsewhere do.
Saddam was against education. The ignorant are easyer to herd. Education would have shown his people a larger, more open world. One that was far different than the one he professed it to be. This hurt the people because it caused a dirth in doctors and other medical professionals and the highly skilled labor pool needed to bring their country fully into the 21st century. That more kids than ever are in class and there are more schools is fact. I say let them gather information about the world and the freedoms enjoyed elsewhere. Knowledge is power, lets share the wealth. Who knows, they might even figure out that the war can be a good thing.

Shheeeeeesh&#33; DIdn&#39;t mean to start a Holy War. This is why I usually don&#39;t debate politics. Peeps become to hot-headed, me included.

Peace to all,
BoNe

Rat Faced
06-14-2004, 09:05 AM
longboneslinger, we may be closer in our beliefs than it seems...im just not as elequant as Biggles and J2k4 in trying to put my points across.


Look at any educational, tourist or history site regarding what Iraq was like, in the 70&#39;s and 80&#39;s...

The Iraqi peope are shown as friendly and welcomig to visitors and the country as forward looking with the best Education and Health Care in the Middle East including Israel..

It falls down, and always has (always will IMHO) on how it treats Political Opposition.

Like every other country the leadership invented "enemies" to focus its populations anger when it had problems. Due to the culture in the Middle East, this leads to Killings and Torture...just like in the UK it leads to the rise of Political Movements such as the BNP.

Its only our culture that makes the politicians in our countries grow up knowing that Torture/Killings for political means is not allowed. I have no doubt that Bush, Blaire and any other political leader brought up in the same culture as the Middle East would be murderers too.

No matter which country your in, you must be "hard" and must have stabbed a lot of people in the back (metaphorically speaking) to have risen to the political top...our cultures define the limits of what is acceptable.

Creating a democracy in Iraq is a lovely Principle, however it takes more than a few months to change a culture...


It reminds me of Cuba... A Communist State that has elections (dont ask me why).

There is only one party to vote for, so you&#39;d think there would be no turnout.... however there is a 70% turnout voting Communist.

If there comes a time that under 50% of the population vote Communist, maybe i would listen to the USA saying its sanctions are fair... when they impose those sanctions on China too...

Voetsek
06-14-2004, 09:13 AM
Hum sounds like south africa one party state sir take a good long look very bad in the long term see who her friends are big trouble down the road

Rat Faced
06-14-2004, 06:42 PM
Who said a one party state was good?

I think a 2 party state is bad, never mind 1 party :blink:


The point i was making is that the turnout is very high, when there is no need to be... endorsing the Government in power.

If the turnout was as low as 49% even, it would mean the majority of voters were not actively supporting the Government in power...

Anyone over 16 can vote, and a high turnout is encouraged..

The voters can either stay at home, cast a blank vote or spoil the vote and the voting system is secret ballot.....

So 3 ways to vote against the Government and only one to vote for it.... and they still consistantly get an endorsement in excess of 70% (Conservative Figures).


The One Party system is about the only thing that is, strictly speaking, communist there now: They have Freedom of Religion and an Open Market Economy is encouraged....

Even the US Chamber of Commerce wants the blockade lifted...its pure Dogma, and the same would happen if Porto Rico decided they didnt want to be controlled by the USA and threw the Business&#39; that were exploiting them out...

longboneslinger
06-15-2004, 02:57 AM
The point i was making is that the turnout is very high, when there is no need to be... endorsing the Government in power.


From what I&#39;ve heard of Castro, voting against him might not be to bright. Leaders like him don&#39;t like dissension. There&#39;s probably a bit of positive/negative reinforcement going on. The positive being that you didn&#39;t get the negative police busting in and kicking your ass for not voting. It makes Castro look good to get a high turnout.

As for China, I totally agree. That Bill Clinton sold us out to the Chinese is a whole new thread, though. But how else does an unknown go to the White House? That&#39;s a long road. Bill got a short cut and a lot of cash somewhere. But as I said, that&#39;s a whole new thread. I personally believe that Most Favored Nation Trading Status with a country like China that has as horrible a record on human rights as they do not to mention the multi-billion dollar trade defficit, slave labor(oops, sorry, &#39;political prisoners&#39; :rolleyes: :blink: ), and the patent infringements they indulge in is sickening to say the least.

As for the mess in Iraq, I never agreed that we should police the world. Never. That we should push our beliefs on others is anathema to all that America stands for. Or at least used to stand for. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I&#39;d love to see the people of Iraq have the freedoms that we do. I don&#39;t see it happining in one or even two generations. Can we as a nation afford that or even should? No. My main problem is that I totally agree that Saddam should have been neutralized if no other reason than the mass murders he was responsible for. I just don&#39;t think that war was the best alternative. What was the best alternative? Sigh.

If I figure it out maybe I&#39;ll run for President. :P It&#39;d be one hell of an interesting campaign, that&#39;s for sure&#33;