Free Will

[Johnny_B]

Is free will real or just an illusion?

For those of you who believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God, consider this:

How can we have free will if God, as an omniscient entity, already knows what your choices will be?

For example:

God asks you to choose between door #1 and door #2.
You choose door #2.
Since God is omniscient, he already knew you were going to choose door #2 from the day you were born.
This makes it impossible to "surprise" God, since your choice was always predicted/controlled by him. This rules out the possibility of free will.

If God is in fact omniscient, then free will can't possibly exist and everything is pre-determined.
If God is omniscient and everything is pre-determined, then we cannot be held responsible for our actions or choices. If we assume this, then there is no such thing as doing good or evil since it's all being predicted/controlled by the will of God. This also means that God can never be "disappointed" by our choices and his punishments (as described in the Bible, for example) are complete non-sense (unless he likes to toy around with us).

For free will to exist, God can't be omniscient, and consequently, can't be omnipotent either.
Or simply, God can't exist.

[dwightfry]

knowing everything and controlling everything are different. Yeah, sure, God knew that you were going to pick door #2, but that doesn't mean he/she made you pick door #2. Neither omnisciency or omnipotency claim that he/she actually controls everything even though he can. In fact, being omnipotent gives him/her the power to do what ever he/she wants, including giving freewill. Even if that somehow contradicted itself, he/she still could do it.

[Johnny_B]

Yeah, sure, God knew that you were going to pick door #2

If he already knew what I was going to choose then why ask me to do it anyway?

In an omniscient model of a god, you can't escape his omnisciency since he already knows the outcome of all your choices from the day you were born. I'm not saying he forces you to choose, I'm saying that he knows the outcome of your choices making them completely useless. If there is no way to change the outcome predicted by god then there is no free will.

Another example:

Let's pretend you're omniscient.
You have a question that you already know the answer.
You already know what I'm going to answer.
Why ask me the question if you already know what I'm going to answer?
Even though you didn't force me to answer, I had no way to escape your predictions since you're omniscient.

Conclusion: It's completely pointless to ask the question since you already know the outcome, the same way that it's completely pointless for humans to make choices if god already knows the outcome.

The only way to change the outcome is if:

1- God isn't omniscient (and therefore isn't omnipotent either, because someone/something that doesn't know everything can't do everything)
2- There is no God

If god is omniscient then you can't change the outcome predicted by him. He can't be surprised by your choices since he knew what they were going to be all along.


Neither omnisciency or omnipotency claim that he/she actually controls everything even though he can. In fact, being omnipotent gives him/her the power to do what ever he/she wants, including giving freewill. Even if that somehow contradicted itself, he/she still could do it.

If god doesn't control everything, simply because he doesn't want to, then what you're actually saying is that if he exists, he simply doesn't care that much for human kind, leaving them on their own.

An omniscient and omnipotent god that gives free will to humans, is the same as walking out on them leaving everything to randomness, or in other words, leaving everything to their own random choices.

[J'Pol]

Which is this omniscient boy - World News or Events.

This should be in the Talk Club thing. Can I commend a move to a mod.

Did you see that coming, or do we have free will after all.

[thewizeard]

Perhaps he is still looking for the one to prove Him wrong....?

Maybe Oscar was right when he said,
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability.

:)

[J'Pol]

Any attempt to understand or define the intent of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being, based on our limited understanding of the universe is arrogant in the extreme and ultimately doomed to failure. We cannot understand things for which we have no frame of reference, as a starting point.

It is like trying to explain the workings of the internal combustion engine to a tree frog. There are simply too many concepts and ideas that fall outwith our current knowledge and understanding.

FFS I struggle with the concept of a 13 dimensional multiverse. How likely is it that I will be able to understand the workings or intentions of the being who created it.

Introduce the frog to the mechanic and see how well their conversation goes. I suspect it will be a one way street.



I still say this should be moved, it is not World News or Events related. If this were started in About this Board it would have been moved by now. The Talk Club is the correct place for this.

[chalice]

I don't often do this but it's grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
I don't often do this but it's grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.
Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. :D

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+17 May 2004 - 20:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 17 May 2004 - 20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.
Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. :D [/b][/quote]
I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+17 May 2004 - 21:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 17 May 2004 - 21:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 20:41
<!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.
Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. :D
I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone. [/b][/quote]
Pre-determined you might say.

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+17 May 2004 - 21:08--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 17 May 2004 - 21:08)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:57

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 20:41
<!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.
Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. :D
I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone.
Pre-determined you might say. [/b][/quote]
Inevitable. God told me to do it..

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+17 May 2004 - 22:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 17 May 2004 - 22:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 21:08

Originally posted by chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:57

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 20:41
<!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

Sorry, that was just bugging me.
Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. :D
I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone.
Pre-determined you might say.
Inevitable. God told me to do it.. [/b][/quote]
That would have been Metatron, an easy mistake to make mate.

[chalice]

Suddenly the thread becomes interesting. Metatron is a nice little theological paradox.

Ve Ver only followink orters.

[zapjb]

Let me cut through this.
IF you believe in an all knowing Being (God, Spirit of the Universe or Creative Intelligence, etc.)
God has infinite knowledge.
Humans have finite knowledge.
Of course God knows what you&#39;re going to do. No matter how many machinations you connive.
That&#39;s why God knows. Even though we have free will. Simple really. :)

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice@17 May 2004 - 22:23
Suddenly the thread becomes interesting. Metatron is a nice little theological paradox.

Ve Ver only followink orters.
Don&#39;t shoot the messenger mate.

[thewizeard]

Then you mean this has been; "a storm in a tea cup?"

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by zapjb@17 May 2004 - 22:24
Let me cut through this.
IF you believe in an all knowing Being (God, Spirit of the Universe or Creative Intelligence, etc.)
God has infinite knowledge.
Humans have finite knowledge.
Of course God knows what you&#39;re going to do. No matter how many machinations you connive.
That&#39;s why God knows. Even though we have free will. Simple really. :)
Thank you, put so much better than I.

Go to your nearest kebab shop and have something on me. Just order what you want and mention my name. ;)

[chalice]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+17 May 2004 - 21:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 17 May 2004 - 21:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 22:23
Suddenly the thread becomes interesting. Metatron is a nice little theological paradox.

Ve Ver only followink orters.
Don&#39;t shoot the messenger mate. [/b][/quote]
Her? Me&#39;s?

I&#39;ll get me coat.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by chalice+17 May 2004 - 22:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 17 May 2004 - 22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 21:26
<!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 22:23
Suddenly the thread becomes interesting. Metatron is a nice little theological paradox.

Ve Ver only followink orters.
Don&#39;t shoot the messenger mate.
Her? Me&#39;s?

I&#39;ll get me coat. [/b][/quote]
And the winner of the most contrived, mythological, Olympian post of the day is ....

[zapjb]

Thanks J&#39;Pol. I wasted a few years of my life trying to be an atheist/agnostic.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by zapjb@17 May 2004 - 23:00
Thanks J&#39;Pol. I wasted a few years of my life trying to be an atheist/agnostic.
You just didn&#39;t have the calling mate. ;)

[hobbes]

Where did you chaps find out that God is omniscient? Is there a pamphlet on this?

To a microrganism, my dog might be considered a God. After all, that poop he just laid is going to be that bacteria&#39;s universe. The little E. Colis are down their praying to the creator of their universe and his infinite wisdom. Meanwhile, Spot sits there oblivious to it all, licking his nuts.

Sure God is omniscient, just make up any old story you want and it is true. Proof, evidence who needs it.

God created man, man fell from grace, God killed everyone and started over. A rational mind might say, "looks like he misjudged his creation and had to start over". The faithful mind will shake it of and say, "God works in mysterious ways".

Whatever it takes to keep the illusion real, I say.

Maybe we are praying to somebodys&#39; dog?

Goes back to my same frustration. Just because we cannot explain the hows and whys of our existance, how is it helpful to imagine that something far more complicated than our Universe arose spontaneously to create us?

[chalice]

Why do Christians or any dogma assume that god is omniscient anyway?

Hobbes&#39;s analogy fails in that his dog is not believed by it&#39;s parasites as an uber-consciouness. An imagineer, if you will.

Isn&#39;t it much more forgivable (not to mention, plausible) to hold that a Supreme Being might have wiped off all we perceive and are made of like ear-wax and
went off and did something infinitely more interesting?

[zapjb]

[QUOTE]chalice Posted on 17 May 2004 - 18:52
Why do Christians or any dogma assume that god is omniscient anyway? ...
[QUOTE]

It&#39;s not an assumption. It&#39;s a belief.

[chalice]

[QUOTE]chalice Posted on 17 May 2004 - 18:52
Why do Christians or any dogma assume that god is omniscient anyway? ...
[QUOTE]

It&#39;s not an assumption. It&#39;s a belief.
The words are interchangable.

Edit-To be clear- An assumption is a belief.

[zapjb]

No they are not interchangable.

http://dictionary.reference.com/

[chalice]

Originally posted by zapjb@18 May 2004 - 00:05
No they are not interchangable.

http://dictionary.reference.com/
The act of taking to or upon oneself: assumption of an obligation.
The act of taking possession or asserting a claim: assumption of command.
The act of taking for granted: assumption of a false theory.
Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition: a valid assumption.
Presumption; arrogance.
Logic. A minor premise.
Assumption
Christianity. The taking up of the Virgin Mary into heaven in body and soul after her death.
A feast celebrating this event.
August 15, the day on which this feast is observed.

[chalice]

Belief

belief

n 1: any cognitive content held as true [ant: unbelief] 2: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof [syn: dogma, tenet] 3: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity" [syn: impression, feeling, notion]

um...I could go on.

[zapjb]

You can find definitions that seem to prove your point.
But you are not taking the context of the discussion into account.
Ask an unbiased scholarly person. In the context of religion are assume & believe synonymous?

[chalice]

Originally posted by zapjb@18 May 2004 - 00:23
You can find definitions that seem to prove your point.
But you are not taking the context of the discussion into account.
Ask an unbiased scholarly person. In the context of religion are assume & believe synonymous?
I found those defintions at the source you provided for me. Though, I hardly needed to.

Those terms are universal. Ecumenical, you might say.

[Johnny_B]

I apologize for this being in the wrong section of the board. To the mod that was kind enough to move it: thank you. :)


Any attempt to understand or define the intent of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being, based on our limited understanding of the universe is arrogant in the extreme and ultimately doomed to failure. We cannot understand things for which we have no frame of reference, as a starting point.

J&#39;Pol, I agree with you when you say that we humans, if confronted with the undeniable existence of a god, could never understand him/her/it in full, due to our very limited knowledge, especially about the universe.

However, when you say that God is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being you also have no frames of reference to support your belief. You&#39;re merely speculating, just like I&#39;m doing.

And where exactly is the arrogance of a theory such as this? :huh:
I never said I was right and everyone else was wrong, did I?
Was Einstein arrogant in trying to understand gravity, a supposed product of God&#39;s creation?
I simply took the attributes often applied to the concept of God (omniscient and omnipotent) and analyzed them in a logical way.
Sure it can all be wrong if some premises that we can&#39;t understand, come up (I have seen none yet, though).
But from a human point of view it&#39;s a logical theory that if an omniscient being, creator of all things, exists, then free will can&#39;t possibly exist.


It is like trying to explain the workings of the internal combustion engine to a tree frog. There are simply too many concepts and ideas that fall outwith our current knowledge and understanding.

If someone told you that they had a theory that was so complex that no one would ever understand it, wouldn&#39;t you want to hear it first even though you knew you had no chances of comprehend it?

Just because you or I can&#39;t understand certain things, doesn&#39;t mean that in the future someone can&#39;t get a grasp of it. If you were to go back in time to the year 2000 b.C. and told everyone that in the future, humans would set foot on the moon, they would have probably told you that such a feat is only in the reach of the gods.

Oh and by the way, I would consider myself a tree sap next to Isaac Newton or Werner Heisenberg, for example. Next to an omnipotent being (if its existence is undeniably proved), I would consider myself a grain of dust, if that much.


Let me cut through this.
IF you believe in an all knowing Being (God, Spirit of the Universe or Creative Intelligence, etc.)
God has infinite knowledge.
Humans have finite knowledge.
Of course God knows what you&#39;re going to do. No matter how many machinations you connive.
That&#39;s why God knows. Even though we have free will. Simple really.

You got me all wrong.
First of all, I&#39;m agnostic and I&#39;m not trying to come up with machinations to prove that God exists or not, or that he knows what I&#39;m doing or not.
What I was saying was that in a logical point of view, the existence of an omniscient being isn&#39;t compatible with the existence of free will.

Read my first posts again and you will understand.

[dwightfry]

There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

umm....ya, you&#39;re wrong





omnisciency

&#092;Om*nis"cien*cy&#092;, n. Omniscience.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=omnisciency




omnipotency

Omnipotence &#092;Om*nip"o*tence&#092;, Omnipotency &#092;Om*nip"o*ten*cy&#092;, n. [L. omnipotentia: cf.F. omnipotence.] 1. The state of being omnipotent; almighty power; hence, one who is omnipotent; the Deity.

Will Omnipotence neglect to save The suffering virtue of the wise and brave? --Pope.

2. Unlimited power of a particular kind; as, love&#39;s omnipotence. --Denham.





http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omnipotency




although, I did spell omnisciency wrong.

[thewizeard]

Maybe this should be an apart topic, when I checked this on-line dictionary, Oxford online (http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=searchresults&freesearch=omnisciency&branch=&textsearchtype=exact)

I received no results for the word.

Perhaps it all depends upon which dictionary that one uses.

[chalice]

Yes, omnisciency is such an ugly word though.

It must have been the omnipotency of the beer I was drinking last night.

I&#39;ll concede their existence but they are archaic forms and treacherous on the tongue. The language has been streamlined and prettified over the centuries.

[thewizeard]

Was it Guiness?

[chalice]

Originally posted by nigel123@18 May 2004 - 07:21
Was it Guiness?
No, Nige, Stella Artois.

[J'Pol]

I&#39;m afraid I am not au fait with Einsteins great works on an attempt to understand gravity. You have me at a disadvantage there.

However the reason I describe God as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent is that any being who does not have these characteristics is not God. It&#39;s back to the definition thing unfortunately. These words, among others form the definition of what God is.

Your basic premise that the existence of an all knowing being precludes free will in other beings is just silly. The free will relates to the observed not the observer. You have free will to decide on any action at any time, the fact that another being already knows what you will decide to do does not change that.

[Johnny_B]

The free will relates to the observed not the observer.

You said it yourself J&#39;Pol.
It may seem that you (the observed) can choose from a wide variety of options, but what you&#39;re really doing is following the prediction of an omniscient being (the observer) who is always 100% accurate and can never be wrong.
If you are given a choice and the omniscient being that created you, already knows the outcome of your choice, then you are confined to his prediction and nothing more.
This is why having free will in a universe where an omniscient being, sole creator of everything, exists, is nothing more than a mere illusion.

It is similar as looking at the Sun from planet Earth. It may seem that the Sun moves around our planet, but that&#39;s just an illusion due to our position and point of view.

If you had real free will, your choices could change the outcome of things and they could never be predicted by God. But an omniscient God can predict everything and that&#39;s why having real free will is impossible if an omniscient God exists.


However the reason I describe God as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent is that any being who does not have these characteristics is not God.

I agree. This is why if you want to keep your belief in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God creator of all things, you will have to discard the possibility of human free will, since, in a logical point of view, both can&#39;t co-exist.


Your basic premise that the existence of an all knowing being precludes free will in other beings is just silly.

I would be glad if someone could prove that an omniscient God and free will can co-exist (who wouldn&#39;t like to be "protected" by a superior being and still have free will?). The problem is that logically one of those things has to go, and I&#39;m afraid that merely saying that something logical is silly, doesn&#39;t actually make it illogical.

[J'Pol]

I would suggest that you actually learn what logic is, rather than just continue to use the word.

The fact that you do not understand the entire universe and it&#39;s workings does not make other people&#39;s beliefs illogical. It just means that you, like everyone else do not yet know everything.

Like I said, you are trying to explain the workings of the infinite within the framework of the finite (very much so) that simply cannot work.

I like your posting style, familiar as it is. These repetitive diatribes must take quite a while to put together. At least it is not so rude this way.

Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.

[Cheese]

Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.

http://www.ragbone.net/shop/corgi/tvfilm/cc06601_muppet300_278.gif

Guess so...

[sparsely]

sparsely fights the urge to post a picture of a famous movie whale in this thread. :helpsmile:

[dwightfry]

I&#39;m sorry...but I see absolutly NO logic in your debate. So something knows what is going to happen, that doesn&#39;t make you confined to anything. Think about it at a much smaller scale. My girlfriend get jelouse very easily, often resulting in anger. My ex-girlfriend shows up at a party and gives me a hug. Now... I predict that my girlfriend is going to yell at me later. Wow...on the ride home...her anger comes out. She had a choice on how she was going to handle that. From what I knew about her, I predicted what was going to happen and I was right. Me making that prediction in no way changed her free will. It in no way affected how she chose to act. That was all her own doing. Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I&#39;m going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven&#39;t gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I&#39;m a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I&#39;m going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I&#39;m going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I&#39;m going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by dwightfry@19 May 2004 - 08:59
Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I&#39;m going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven&#39;t gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I&#39;m a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I&#39;m going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I&#39;m going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I&#39;m going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.
If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?

Is he just trying to prove himself right? If so then logically (sic) God must have a sense of self-doubt, and hence does not really know everything, only thinks that he does (or assumes he does, believes he does, etc...)

:blink:

Did he know I was going to use a smiley I&#39;ve never used before? We shall see...

:fear2:

[lynx]

Originally posted by dwightfry@19 May 2004 - 08:59
I&#39;m sorry...but I see absolutly NO logic in your debate. So something knows what is going to happen, that doesn&#39;t make you confined to anything. Think about it at a much smaller scale. My girlfriend get jelouse very easily, often resulting in anger. My ex-girlfriend shows up at a party and gives me a hug. Now... I predict that my girlfriend is going to yell at me later. Wow...on the ride home...her anger comes out. She had a choice on how she was going to handle that. From what I knew about her, I predicted what was going to happen and I was right. Me making that prediction in no way changed her free will. It in no way affected how she chose to act. That was all her own doing. Well...if God is Omniscient, then he knows more about ourselves then we know about ourselves. He knew exactly how she was going to react, and exactly what she was going to say simply because he had all the information he could ever need to calculate what how things were going to turn out. He knows how much of her crap I can take and knows when I&#39;m going to say enough is enough. He knows that we are going to go out to eat at a certain restaurant because he knows we used to go there all the time and we haven&#39;t gone for awhile. He knows that a hot waitress needed extra hours so she took over a co-workers shift. He knows what table were going to sit at because he knows why everyone else is going the same restaurant and the order that they are going to be seated and when they are going to leave. He knows that I&#39;m a friendly person so that when the hot waitress comes over, I&#39;m going to smile as I hand her the menu after ordering. He knows my girlfriend is gonna see that smile and freak out. And he knows that I&#39;m going to break up with her the next day. How does he know that I&#39;m going to wait until the next day? Because he knows me that well. Now....at no point did he ever do anything to effect anyones free will. He just knew what was going to happen with 100% detail because he knows everything else there is to know with 100% detail. He knows how everything is going to effect everything because he knows everything.
I know that if she reads this you are in big trouble. :D

And it&#39;s not even my turn to play God.

[dwightfry]

I know that if she reads this you are in big trouble.

Actually she doesn&#39;t exist at the moment. :( :P



If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?

I actually have my own beliefs on that. Everything posted before was my understanding of generic religios beliefs. It isn&#39;t actually what I believe really. In the beginning God was all there was. Being omniscient, he can obviously comprehend his own power but never really experience it. I can comprehend what it would be like to win the lottery, but that isn&#39;t the same as experiencing it. So...he took part of himself and turned it into souls. Souls, having been part of God also have the same powers as God but simply aren&#39;t as powerful as God. So now God can experience his true power by ruling over the souls. He&#39;s happy. But now the souls have the same problem. They are powerful and can comprehend there power but never experience it. So life was created. The soul chooses everything about your life before you are born, your sex, if you have a handicap, what kind of parents you have, all that. When you are born, your soul forgets everything and just experiences the life that they created. It is through experiencing life without the powers, they can experience their true power when we pass.

The same idea as if nothing was bad then how would you know what was good? How could you truly understand what you have?

From all the theory&#39;s I&#39;ve heard on God, this one seemed to make the most sense to me. It seemed to answer the most, previously unanswerable, questions.

[dwightfry]

Originally posted by Mr JP Fugley+19 May 2004 - 09:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr JP Fugley &#064; 19 May 2004 - 09:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sparsely@19 May 2004 - 08:45

sparsely fights the urge to post a picture of a famous movie whale in this thread. :helpsmile:
i just got it - free willie

:lol: :lol: :lol:[/b][/quote]
Free Willie&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

http://www.mmnet.cz/simpsons/images/misc/fbi-willie.jpg

(According to the mugshot, Willie is over 6 feet tall. I never would have guessed)

[Johnny_B]

Why do you people keep misinterpreting me and keep refering to things that I never said? :huh:


The fact that you do not understand the entire universe and it&#39;s workings does not make other people&#39;s beliefs illogical.

I never said your beliefs were illogical. Beliefs are convictions that can either be logical or illogical. There are no ways to prove if they are logical or illogical, true or false. This is why they are called beliefs. I respect your beliefs and I&#39;m sure you respect mine (I think I said this before, I&#39;m agnostic).
If I were to say that your beliefs are stupid and wrong and mine were right, then I would sure be an arrogant bastard since I don&#39;t have any way of proving it.

Like I said before, I&#39;m not claiming I&#39;m right and everyone else is wrong. I can be wrong, God can be omniscient and we can still have free will. But from a logical point of view I still haven&#39;t seen anything to support that view.


Like I said, you are trying to explain the workings of the infinite within the framework of the finite (very much so) that simply cannot work.

I could say the same thing about you. How can you try to define a supernatural being who is capable of defying all logic, by using logical terms with logical definitions (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent), coined by finite and fallible humans? You, as a human, are also susceptible of being wrong when defining God the way you do.


I like your posting style, familiar as it is. These repetitive diatribes must take quite a while to put together. At least it is not so rude this way.

It is not my intention to offend anyone&#39;s beliefs. If I did I apologise.
As to my posting style, I&#39;m sorry I can&#39;t be more eloquent, but English is not my first language. Perhaps that&#39;s why I&#39;m constantly being misinterpreted. :unsure:


Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.

Who knows?
Perhaps if you give the frog a few million years of learning, you might be surprised.


To dwightfry and his/her (perhaps too much :D ) detailed explanation:

You just proved my point again&#33;
If an omniscient God knows everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, about you or anyone else, then he sure knew all about your future and your choices even before you were born. We agree on this, right? I will assume so.

I&#39;m not saying he will force you in doing something you don&#39;t want to.
I&#39;m saying that for him to "see" your future and your choices, they have to be already pre-determined by God since he can&#39;t be wrong in his predictions of your future. What he "sees" is what will happen, no matter what.
If you can&#39;t escape his predictions (if you did, you would prove that God isn&#39;t omniscient, which is impossible because he IS God and he IS omniscient) then you are confined to the future that he foresaw.

If you are confined to an already foreseen future (pre-determined), then you can&#39;t possibly have free will. What seems like choice to you is simply an illusion.


If God knows everything that has ever happened and that is ever going to happen, what was the point of him actually bothering to make the universe in the first place?

That&#39;s the conclusion that I also came up with. An omniscient God implies that he knows everything beforehand, which leads to the mind puzzling paradox described in your question.
I&#39;m afraid this is not for me or any human to come up with an answer. That question can only be answered by God himself/herself/itself if he/she/it exists.


Try to explain the Universe in terms of Newtonian Physics, you can&#39;t because the physics is wrong. It seems right in a very limited way. However as our knowledge of the universe expanded then it became obvious that Newton got it wrong in a number of ways. It was "right" within the limited ability to observe and record at that time, but it was not right for the whole universe, so we had to move on to new understanding.

I agree 100%. This is why no one can say he/she is absolutely right, since in a near future, better theories or new evidence can debunk the old theories completely.


Now try to explain the working of God in terms of human understanding of time and space. Nah, that doesn&#39;t work any better than the attempt to explain spacetime purely in terms of Newtonian physics.

The point is that you cannot understand or explain those things which you do not have the tools to understand or explain.

Fair enough. But the same applies to you. Which tools did you use to understand and define God the way you do?
Let&#39;s be reasonable here. You and I are speculating. Saying that God is omniscient is a logical speculation. I merely applied some more logic into that speculation.


So to deny the existence of God based on playground "logic" is an exercise in arrogance and futility.
Again the misinterpretations.
You either didn&#39;t read, in full, my previous posts or I&#39;m as lousy as I think I am when expressing myself in English (it&#39;s probably the latter :frusty: ).

In all my posts I&#39;ve been trying to say that the existence of an omniscient God can&#39;t co-exist with free will.
What does this mean to you?
To me it means that God can still exist. He can be omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, but if this is true, humans can&#39;t have free will.
If you believe in God then I&#39;m sure you won&#39;t be worried in having free will or not, since ultimately "it&#39;s all in the hands of God", like people usually say.


(According to the mugshot, Willie is over 6 feet tall. I never would have guessed)

:D He also doesn&#39;t seem all that muscled, but when he tears his clothes apart... :D

http://club.telepolis.com/iivangm/imgnes/willie1.gif

... Willie frees himself. :lol:

[J'Pol]

This is why if you want to keep your belief in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God creator of all things, you will have to discard the possibility of human free will, since, in a logical point of view, both can&#39;t co-exist.


I believe that both exist, you said that logically they cannot both exist.

You described my belief as being illogical.

People do understand what you are saying, it&#39;s just that you are wrong. It is not illogical to believe that free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. Just because you cannot explain it does not make it illogical. It just makes it beyond your understanding.


by using logical terms with logical definitions (omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent), coined by finite and fallible humans? You, as a human, are also susceptible of being wrong when defining God the way you do.


I said earlier, any being who does not have these attributes is not God. I am not placing attributes on God, I am describing what I understand Him to be.

What do you mean by logical terms with logical definitions btw. These are words with meanings, what has logic got to do with it. Again I think you may see logic as some sort of magic word.


QUOTE&nbsp;
Speak to the frog, ask him about the internal combustion engine. Does he understand it yet.



Who knows?
Perhaps if you give the frog a few million years of learning, you might be surprised.


And perhaps in a few million years we may be advanced enough to have a better understanding of the nature of God. This is my point, like the frog we are not at that stage, but one day ....

[dwightfry]

I&#39;m just not getting ya.


free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.


So, just explain this to me. How does my knowing that my girlfriend is going to get mad take away her &#39;ability or discretion to choose&#39; to get mad? How is her choice &#39;constrained by external circumstances?&#39;

God, being the omniscient being that he is, also knew that she was going to get mad.

I&#39;m not saying he will force you in doing something you don&#39;t want to.


So...even you say it isn&#39;t effected by an &#39;agency such as fate or divine will&#39;.

Where&#39;s the problem?&#33;? :blink:

(B.T.W. I think your english is fine....better then mine even, and it&#39;s my only language)

[Johnny_B]

I believe that both exist, you said that logically they cannot both exist.

You described my belief as being illogical.

People do understand what you are saying, it&#39;s just that you are wrong. It is not illogical to believe that free will can exist in the presence of an omniscient being. Just because you cannot explain it does not make it illogical. It just makes it beyond your understanding.

To me your belief is illogical. To you it is logical. Just because it sounds illogical to me doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;m right and everyone else is wrong.

I already said over and over that I could be wrong. It&#39;s just that you "seem" wrong to me, but eventually you could be right.

When I started the topic I was hoping that people could put aside their emotions towards their beliefs and simply analyze the theory in a logical way.

But you clearly failed in doing that when you state, and I will quote again: "it&#39;s just that you are wrong."
If you are so convinced that you are right and I&#39;m wrong, then could you please explain me how can both an omniscient God and free will possibly co-exist? I would be glad if you could enlighten me. :huh:
If you say that it&#39;s possible but we just can&#39;t understand it, then I will use the same argument on you and say that an omniscient God and free will can&#39;t possibly co-exist; you just can&#39;t understand it.

The problem is that you DO understand what I&#39;m saying since it does follow logical thought. You simply refuse to accept it. But that&#39;s fine, we have different points of view and different beliefs. I&#39;m not here trying to "force" or "convert" anyone into my beliefs. I&#39;m merely exposing a theory.


I said earlier, any being who does not have these attributes is not God. I am not placing attributes on God, I am describing what I understand Him to be.
True. The current definition of God, coined by humans, is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being. If he lacks one of those attributes he can no longer be called God according to the current definition. But the definition may change and you can still call him God even though he lacks some attributes. I&#39;m getting carried away, this is just a semantics problem. :D

Tell me, do you really understand God to be that way, or you just picked up the definition of God from others, and accepted it. There&#39;s a very big difference between understanding God by yourself and accepting what other people understand of God.
If you do understand God by yourself, and that leads you to the definition that was already coined by others, I would like to know how you did it, so I can also try to understand him the way you do.


What do you mean by logical terms with logical definitions btw. These are words with meanings, what has logic got to do with it. Again I think you may see logic as some sort of magic word.

Words, or terms, are logical definitions (multiple words) combined into just one. Instead of saying "someone or something that knows everything; having total knowledge; knowing everything" you simply say "omniscient".
If I tell you that God is hrgtgdjhjtss you will not understand (neither do I for that matter) because that is not a word, or better yet, it is not a term with a logical definition.
The "meaning" that you referred to, IS the logical definition behind a word.
So as you can see, logic isn&#39;t that magical after all. You use logic to write and to think.


And perhaps in a few million years we may be advanced enough to have a better understanding of the nature of God. This is my point, like the frog we are not at that stage, but one day ....

So you agree with me that if proper time and thought is given to unknown subjects, they can eventually be understood to a certain extent.
So after all you also agree with me in that logic can be applied in the understanding of a complex being such as God. It might be difficult, but it&#39;s possible.

But I&#39;m still puzzled.
What makes you so sure that we are not coming about at "that stage"?
What would be necessary to reach "that stage"?
Better yet, what is "that stage"?
Some years ago no one would have thought that the "computer age" was just around the corner, until Alan Turing published his book "On Computable Numbers (...)".
It seemed like any other normal day, but something had already changed...


How does my knowing that my girlfriend is going to get mad take away her &#39;ability or discretion to choose&#39; to get mad? How is her decision &#39;constrained by external circumstances?&#39;

God, being the omniscient being that he is, also knew that she was going to get mad.

Ok first of all, you can&#39;t use yourself as an example since you&#39;re not omniscient.

Imagine that God predicted that she would get mad, but she actually didn&#39;t&#33;
If God predicted one thing and the outcome was completely different, then God would have to be wrong; he would have to be surprised by the fact that she didn&#39;t got mad, unlike his prediction. She would really have free will.

Then you might ask the question:
But wait a minute, isn&#39;t God supposed to ALWAYS be right and NEVER be wrong?
Yes, of course&#33; An omniscient God has to be right ALL THE TIME&#33;

This leads us to the fact that she simply HAS to get mad because that was God&#39;s prediction of the future.
God&#39;s predictions HAVE to be her future, otherwise God would be wrong and that is impossible, if he is omniscient.
If she has to follow God&#39;s predictions then it is all pre-determined from the start.
If her future was already pre-determined, then she had no choice: she had to get mad at you, no matter what. If you can&#39;t choose your destiny, then you have no free will.


So...even you say it isn&#39;t effected by an &#39;agency such as fate or divine will&#39;.

Being forced to do something and doing something because you "had to" or "you were meant to", are different things.
If God is responsible for a pre-determined future, then he is indirectly responsible for your choices (although not forcing you, he just makes you that way).

[Canadian Knight]

WOW&#33;

That was a good 30 min-45 min read lol.

I&#39;m not smart or anything, what&#39;s an agnostic? is that like an Athiest?

After reading and thinking...

Wouldnt some people assume that "God" or an Omnipotent being gave us free will?

Sure God might know what choices I will make, that does not restrain me from my everyday life of what I want to do. Sure God knows I&#39;m going to go to the bathroom, or catch a cold. Sure he knows when a crime might be taking place. The fact God does not interfere with our daily lives must be proof that we indeed have "Free Will." So a Higher being knows what I will have for lunch. Atleast he doesnt force me to eat peas and carrots like my parents did when I was a child. Now, that&#39;s having no free will there, growing up. :P

Not trying to try start a debate or keep 1 going.

[longboneslinger]

My my my.....what interesting debates we get into at &#39;FILEsharing.com&#39;.

Try this.
1: Those who believe in the Christian God get our beliefs from a book called the Bible, maybe you&#39;ve heard of it. :P

As for free will: God refers to us as his children. Most fathers can predict what thier kids are gonna do to a remarkable degree. Why? We know our kids. I don&#39;t have any, but I have a huge passle of nieces, nephew, and assorted cousins. I know, for instance, that if I tell my cousin July (Shes 9) that she can&#39;t spend the night with us, she&#39;ll pitch a hissy fit. I don&#39;t make her, it&#39;s sitll her choice to be a big girl. That I know affects her not at all.

Perhaps He was lonely. We were created in his image and we know lonliness, so might He. Perhaps He didn&#39;t make us perfect because perfect would be boring. He wanted us to grow to perfection. Thats why the question of "Why did God let this happen.." is pointless. He didn&#39;t, we did. Freewillie.....errr........free will in action. I know for example that my cousin Kim is in love with a possessive loser who&#39;s gonna break her heart. It&#39;s still her choice. She&#39;s grown, and like us, can exercise free will.

In an aside, a friend knew that when I stupidly put a shim under my Athlon XP2500+ I&#39;d Bork it. He was right. Does that make it his fault? Did it die because of him? Because he &#39;knew&#39;?

EDIT:Congrats. You&#39;re even more long winded than me&#33; :P

[ZaZu]

Originally posted by Johnny_B@16 May 2004 - 20:07
Is free will real or just an illusion?

For those of you who believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God, consider this:

How can we have free will if God, as an omniscient entity, already knows what your choices will be?


If God,knowing what choice you are going to make does not intervene then the choice made is yours ... that He knew what the choice would be proves His omniscience

[cpt_azad]

someone prove me wrong here (pls, i really don&#39;t know if it&#39;s flawed)

my little theory/exp.

k, if god is all-knowing and all-powerful, as stated b4 me, if knows exactly wat ur going to do so it&#39;s a contradiction to free will, here goes:

suppose u build a time machine and u go forward, oh say, a week to the next thursday. then u observe one of ur friends for that entire day and write down everything he/she does that day in a book, go back in time and give ur friend the book, tell him/her to read it, and then tell him/her to do everything differently on thursday then wat the book states, PURE CONTRADICTION.

if god already knew wat u were going to do (ie no free will, all-knowing mega-being) on thursday (future) and that person did those things while another observed him/her and then went back in time and told that person to do everything differently than wat he/she did on thursday, then surely god is not all-knowing and therefore not all-powerful :blink: think about it, and pls prove me wrong, i&#39;m getting scared here :unsure: :helpsmile: :helpsmile: maybe this is a reason we can&#39;t travel in time, if there is a god, maybe it doesn&#39;t want us to meddle wit his masterpiece (universe, humans, etc.) :blink:

[longboneslinger]

Hey cap, you&#39;re assuming that God doesn&#39;t know that you&#39;re going to next Thursday, writing down all that crap, that you&#39;re going to tell you&#39;re friend and He won&#39;t know what your friend is going to do with the information.

If he/she can change that day, freewilly....er...will is proven, but only freewill. You haven&#39;t proven that God didn&#39;t know what would happen. What, did you think God would be fooled by a mere time machine? He created time, so it&#39;ll have no mysteries for Him.

[cpt_azad]

no, god knows wat&#39;s going to happen, he knows ur going forward in time. but the point is IF god pre-determined wat ur friend is going to do on thursday, then surely u cannot change the chain of events on thursday for ur friend even if u show/tell him wat he is "supposed" to do on thursday. simply put, if ur friend does things absolutely differently on thursday then wat u observed, free will is REAL and god is still all-knowing (if there is a god) but does not control u in that way (fate, pre-determination, blah blah blah), but if ur friend cannot change the chain of events of thursday (forced to by some supernatural force), then surely god is real (or some mega-all-knowing being) and there is no free will, my "theory" shows that both possibilities are true (both pre-determination [no free will], and free will can be true, but one has to prove the other wrong), yet they both are false, until we actually build a time machine to test this "theory" (highly unlikely), then i guess we really will never know. personally, i believe there is a god, but i do believe there is free will (thus the "prove me wrong"), now if u&#39;ll excuse me, i&#39;m gonna make an attempt to make a time machine :lol: :D

[Barbarossa]

Well...

Since time travel is not possible, you cannot use it as an example that proves that God isn&#39;t omnipotent. That&#39;s nonsense. :lol:


It&#39;s like saying:


Originally posted by imaginary

To determine whether light travels in straight lines&nbsp; ***&nbsp; , if I could see round corners then light doesn&#39;t travel in straight lines, therefore light doesn&#39;t travel in straight lines. (Now I gotta work out a way to see round corners&#33;)


Clear gibberish&#33; B)

(*** Not counting any relativistic gravitational lens effects. <_< )

[cpt_azad]

Not counting any relativistic gravitational lens effects

damnit, i was gonna use that as my rebuttle :angry: :lol: , ya, time travel is not possible, but i guess i kinda wanted to make an analogy (obviously i&#39;m not saying that anyone&#39;s ever going to try this experiment) but i guess it backfired <_< :angry: :angry: :( :helpsmile: :helpsmile:

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by Canadian Knight@14 June 2004 - 07:19
...I&#39;m not smart or anything, what&#39;s an agnostic? is that like an Athiest?...
Kind of, but not really. Agnostic generally allows for the possibility of a diety to exist, but requires some sort of evidence before ruling on the existence of any diety.

:ninja:

[j2k4]

What a stunningly magnificent load of bollocks you all have contributed to, here.

Profound indeed, but not in so sustained a manner as to be even the least bit boring.

My congratulations to the executive producer of this fine mess&#33; ;)

[Barbarossa]

There&#39;s no way that God could have foreseen this thread, hey? :lol:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by barbarossa@2 July 2004 - 04:29
There's no way that God could have foreseen this thread, hey? :lol:
God?

Who's He?

JUST KIDDING, OF COURSE!

I'm a bit surprised he's been allowed to play such a large part in this thread, given the prevailing attitude on the board.

I'm very much gratified, in fact. :)

[longboneslinger]

I&#39;m a bit surprised he&#39;s been allowed to play such a large part in this thread, given the prevailing attitude on the board.

I&#39;m very much gratified, in fact.


Me too. &#39;Course, MN is a pretty damn cool mod. Now if RatFaced see&#39;s this, all hell is gonna break loose&#33;&#33; :lol: Just kidding, Rat.

Hey&#33; Step away from the ban button&#33; I repeat: Step away from the ban button&#33; This is you finall warning&#33;&#33; Ummm...errr...hey rat, did I say please??

Later taters....forever? :rolleyes:
BoNe

EDIT:God knew this was gonna happen&#33; Why didn&#39;t he stop me? FREEWILLY...WILL&#33; B)

[j2k4]

Yes, indeed; MN is a truly tolerant mod. ;)

He abides me that I might make him giggle and thus provide him a measure of warmth in his far-north abode. :)

Rat, on the other hand, provides his own heat, so to speak. :D

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by j2k4@2 July 2004 - 02:29
What a stunningly magnificent load of bollocks you all have contributed to, here.

Profound indeed, but not in so sustained a manner as to be even the least bit boring.

My congratulations to the executive producer of this fine mess&#33; ;)
As always a pleasure to amuse.

Did you realize there was a lot more, but quite a bit got lost in the great trashcan incident.

I remember I posted a lot of absolutely brilliant material, pure gold it was. Unfortunately all now lost.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+3 July 2004 - 13:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 3 July 2004 - 13:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@2 July 2004 - 02:29
What a stunningly magnificent load of bollocks you all have contributed to, here.

Profound indeed, but not in so sustained a manner as to be even the least bit boring.

My congratulations to the executive producer of this fine mess&#33; ;)
As always a pleasure to amuse.

Did you realize there was a lot more, but quite a bit got lost in the great trashcan incident.

I remember I posted a lot of absolutely brilliant material, pure gold it was. Unfortunately all now lost. [/b][/quote]
What remains should be published, I tell you.

I remember when we amused ourselves with "three-word-stories" and such; this whole board has come a ways since then, I think. ;)

BTW-Welcome back, you old rascal&#33; :)

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by j2k4+3 July 2004 - 20:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 3 July 2004 - 20:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@3 July 2004 - 13:49
<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@2 July 2004 - 02:29
What a stunningly magnificent load of bollocks you all have contributed to, here.

Profound indeed, but not in so sustained a manner as to be even the least bit boring.

My congratulations to the executive producer of this fine mess&#33; ;)
As always a pleasure to amuse.

Did you realize there was a lot more, but quite a bit got lost in the great trashcan incident.

I remember I posted a lot of absolutely brilliant material, pure gold it was. Unfortunately all now lost.
What remains should be published, I tell you.

I remember when we amused ourselves with "three-word-stories" and such; this whole board has come a ways since then, I think. ;)

BTW-Welcome back, you old rascal&#33; :) [/b][/quote]
Thank you, scallywag.

[Anabelle]

Okay this is my theory on this discussion. I&#39;m very sketchy on beliefs at the moment since mine resemble paint splattered on a wall but I think that god did pre-determine our fate as a whole. If god is everything we say he is then he created all the problems and made sure that they would occur. Proof of this is that god created Lucifer who later became Satan. For those who don&#39;t know of the bible story Lucifer used to be gods right hand man untill he got sick of working under gods rule and decided to start his own taking some of gods angels to be his now demons (which is where the term fallen angels came from). Now if god could see into the future and he also claims to love us then why would he create something that would lead us away from perfection? Also it&#39;s evident that Adam and Eve in fact were not perfect. If they were then they would have refused the temptation that Satan had for them to taste of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Another thing that comes into play is that god knew that they would be tempted by the tree since it is human nature to be curious since if we weren&#39;t then everything we have come to know wouldn&#39;t exist since we wouldn&#39;t have cared enough to discover anything. I think it&#39;s compleatly possible that we&#39;re one huge experiment that he&#39;s almost done with. If god wanted to the devil would have been done away with long ago. God could have given free will but I think he knew exactly what we were going to do or else why would he have written an entire book of prophocies ( the bible) without being sure that it was going to be right in the end. So sure it&#39;s possible that god did give us free will but he did stick a few things in life to make sure we made the decision that he predicts. I mean wouldn&#39;t you look like a fool if you told someone that a building was going to fall in two hours , three minutes, and twenty six seconds and then it didn&#39;t .So to make sure it did you would plant a bomb so that you wouldn&#39;t look like a compleat fool. So I guess my answer on this is yes, our lives are pre-determined.

Also as for the theory of time travel and changing the future for a friend by telling them what to do and say how do you know that god didn&#39;t expect you to do that as well?

[Voetsek]

Amen to that poeple


How&#39;s your mind?

[cpt_azad]

how do you know that god didn&#39;t expect you to do that as well?
there&#39;s the loophole i was looking 4 ;)