Altered Carbon

[Snee]

Has anyone read it?

It's this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".



The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don't we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it's more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he's thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.



Now, could you do this?

If you had a hard-drive in your head, and could get the information on it transfered to another body?

If not, could you do it if you had had the hard-drive in your head as long as you could remember?

Or could you do it, if you were dying, and this was the only way to survive?

[DanB]

I think its time you passed me that joint <_<






:lol:

[Snee]

Aww, come on now, it is a good question.

[DanB]

It was good reading I will give you that.

I havent got a clue what you want me to answer but it sounds like a good book :01:

[Snee]

If you could copy the information in your brain to a harddrive, and swap bodies...

and so forth, would there be a point to it, or would "you" just be dead?


and would it be different if you had had that hard-drive in you head as long as you could remember, so the copy had always been there as much as the information in your head?

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?



does that make better sense?


And yeah, it was a damn good read.

[brenda]

Generally I would say that in the western world we hold a cartesian view of the self, i.e that the mind and body are seperate and that the mind is where the seat of the self is, the body being a physical extension to the mind.

In brief this kind of arose from the scientific thinking of the so Enlightement. Descartes suggested that &#39;I think, therefore I am&#39; and the debate that arose from this amongst academics eventually became public discourse.

Of cousre it is quite rediculous to disregard the body as a part of the self because it is how we experience the world around us, how we interact with the society that we are a part of and how we express the self that we believe to be quaranteened inside the brain.

I haven&#39;t read it SnnY though it sounds like an interesting read, who is the author?

As for freezing bodies and downloading brains, well its already happing, check this out out.........

curing death (http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/)

and in particular this place.........

cryonics community (http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?page=1&article_id=13)

I also attended a lecture last year in which the latest developments in memory download were discussed. Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body, god knows what sort of ethical dilemma that sort of shit will lead too. Unfortunately I can&#39;t find any references for it.

note: please excuse spelling errors.

[DanB]

That does make sense know but its a bit deep :unsure:


I dont think just memories make a person though but I would do it if I was about to die

[Proper Bo]

Originally posted by Brenda
Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body

I&#39;m sure that&#39;s the plot to a Ch5 TV porno I&#39;ve seen :blink:

[DanB]

Originally posted by Proper Bo, I tell thee+9 August 2004 - 20:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Proper Bo, I tell thee @ 9 August 2004 - 20:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin- Brenda
Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body

I&#39;m sure that&#39;s the plot to a Ch5 TV porno I&#39;ve seen :blink: [/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol:

Starring the dude out of Airwolf by any chance? :unsure:

[Snee]

Originally posted by brenda@9 August 2004 - 21:14
I haven&#39;t read it SnnY though it sounds like an interesting read, who is the author?
Richard Morgan

review (http://www.sfsite.com/03a/al123.htm)

It&#39;s his debute novel I think, I bought the sequel too, it was my kind of thing. Mind you, while the topic I brought up is central to the story, there&#39;s more to it.



You brought up some interesting points I thought.

How would you consider the hypothetical situation of having had the hard-drive in your head before you became self aware?

Would you consider the information in there as much "you", as that in your brain?

EDit:And yes, I realise you said the body may be part of our conciousness too, but would you consider the information in the harddrive worth using if say, you could keep your body, but your brain got erased.

[Proper Bo]

Originally posted by danb+9 August 2004 - 20:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 9 August 2004 - 20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Proper Bo@ I tell thee,9 August 2004 - 20:18
<!--QuoteBegin- Brenda
Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body

I&#39;m sure that&#39;s the plot to a Ch5 TV porno I&#39;ve seen :blink:
:lol: :lol:

Starring the dude out of Airwolf by any chance? :unsure: [/b][/quote]
WTF&#39;s Airwolf? :blink:

It sounds 80&#39;s, i was only 4 at the end of the 80&#39;s :rolleyes:

[DanB]

Originally posted by Proper Bo, I tell thee+9 August 2004 - 20:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Proper Bo, I tell thee @ 9 August 2004 - 20:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by danb+9 August 2004 - 20:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb &#064; 9 August 2004 - 20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Proper Bo@ I tell thee,9 August 2004 - 20:18
<!--QuoteBegin- Brenda
Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body

I&#39;m sure that&#39;s the plot to a Ch5 TV porno I&#39;ve seen :blink:
:lol: :lol:

Starring the dude out of Airwolf by any chance? :unsure: [/b][/quote]
WTF&#39;s Airwolf? :blink:

It sounds 80&#39;s, i was only 4 at the end of the 80&#39;s :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
young whipper snapper



sorry SnnY :P

[Snee]

Originally posted by Proper Bo+ I tell thee,9 August 2004 - 21:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Proper Bo &#064; I tell thee,9 August 2004 - 21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by danb+9 August 2004 - 20:19--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb &#064; 9 August 2004 - 20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Proper Bo@ I tell thee,9 August 2004 - 20:18
<!--QuoteBegin- Brenda
Apparently scientists in Japan are somehow, able to download memories of people before they die to be implanted into another living body

I&#39;m sure that&#39;s the plot to a Ch5 TV porno I&#39;ve seen :blink:
:lol: :lol:

Starring the dude out of Airwolf by any chance? :unsure: [/b][/quote]
WTF&#39;s Airwolf? :blink:

It sounds 80&#39;s, i was only 4 at the end of the 80&#39;s :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
Bloody crap tv-series.

I think it revolves around a helicopter prototype.

Looked to me to be a rather good helicopter too, what with it occasionally defying the laws of physics.

@danb: sorry for what? I posted in the lounge, this is to be expected.

[DanB]

Airwolf was the nuts :01:

It growled and stuff too :D

[Snee]

Originally posted by brenda@9 August 2004 - 21:14
As for freezing bodies and downloading brains, well its already happing, check this out out.........

curing death (http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/)

and in particular this place.........

cryonics community (http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/viewarticle.cfm?page=1&article_id=13)
These links were very interesting, tho&#39; I must say that there&#39;s a cult like feel to it.

[tracydani]

he question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don&#39;t we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

I would think it would still be you. I am assuming that all the things you know and think/feel(not physically) would be on the drive as well.




So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

I believe according to the book, they are one and the same in the end. At least until he is tranfered to another body, then I am assuming the old body no longer has his memories etc.

Sounds like a good book. I will need to look for it.

TD

[brenda]

Originally posted by SnnY@9 August 2004 - 19:20
How would you consider the hypothetical situation of having had the hard-drive in your head before you became self aware?

Would you consider the information in there as much "you", as that in your brain?
I think that to a degree we do have a kind of hard-drive that is active before we are self aware. For instance no-one can remember being born and yet will all existed in the womb. Psycholanyalisis favours the idea that we only become self away when we recognise that we are a seperate entity from our mothers, perhaps rather than recongising this as a state of independance it could be regonised that we are always connected to others though shared experience. Therefore our &#39;hard-drive&#39;s&#39; may all contain silmilar information. This then raises question of the possiblity of a universal mind to which we all contribute and utilise.

The second question is a bit more difficult for me to get my head round, because the seriousness of all this is frying my brain :lol: However I&#39;ll try.......

I think that if there was a hard-drive in my head instead of a brain, and that hard-drive had existed prior to me becoming self aware, then yes, I would consider the information in there as much "me" as that in my brain. I&#39;m thinking about the kid in A.I. and robot in Millenium Man...... I know that there are cultural references rather than actual examples but I feel that they are representative of our relationship with technology.

I also tihnk that science-fiction has a much shorter life than it did saw a century ago. Victorian predictions of the future such as the submarine were eventually realised, but in todays fast paced world no sooner is a fictional idea written about than it becomes reality. Science fiction has become the fast-food of the world of literature.

"I&#39;ll have 1 cyborg and a side order of micro-bugs please"

"your order will be ready to collect at window 2 please have the correct change ready, have a nice day"

[Snee]

@ TD He seems to be somewhat dismissive of his body at times though. At least that was the impression I got.

He goes through a couple.

And yes, it seems the old mind gets erased from the body as the information is removed, in the instances the body isn&#39;t killed.

It seems to me that a copy of myself wouldn&#39;t be me, as the information that was me gets erased even though there is a copy.

But I&#39;d make a distinction between having had that hard-drive inside me since before I became self-aware, and having it implanted now.

In the former case I&#39;d consider the copy to be more me, somehow.

[Snee]

Originally posted by brenda+9 August 2004 - 21:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (brenda &#064; 9 August 2004 - 21:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@9 August 2004 - 19:20
How would you consider the hypothetical situation of having had the hard-drive in your head before you became self aware?

Would you consider the information in there as much "you", as that in your brain?
I think that to a degree we do have a kind of hard-drive that is active before we are self aware. For instance no-one can remember being born and yet will all existed in the womb. Psycholanyalisis favours the idea that we only become self away when we recognise that we are a seperate entity from our mothers, perhaps rather than recongising this as a state of independance it could be regonised that we are always connected to others though shared experience. Therefore our &#39;hard-drive&#39;s&#39; may all contain silmilar information. This then raises question of the possiblity of a universal mind to which we all contribute and utilise.


[/b][/quote]
I have had thoughts in the same direction myself. I tend to think of humanity as pool of water, the more influence we have, the more rings we make, and the longer it takes our external selves to die.

This is perhaps the only way to become truly immortal, to have such a lasting effect that our influence never dies.

But then again, everything we do affects the lives of others.

But I tend to think of immortality as the survival of my mind, or at least my thoughts, my conscious influence on others at the very least.

The second question is a bit more difficult for me to get my head round, because the seriousness of all this is frying my brain :lol: However I&#39;ll try.......

I think that if there was a hard-drive in my head instead of a brain, and that hard-drive had existed prior to me becoming self aware, then yes, I would consider the information in there as much "me" as that in my brain. I&#39;m thinking about the kid in A.I. and robot in Millenium Man...... I know that there are cultural references rather than actual examples but I feel that they are representative of our relationship with technology.

I think I feel sort of the same with regards to having always had it there. But I can&#39;t be sure until I&#39;ve tried it.

And I find the examples you brought up interesting as well.
They are unique, yet simulations of human minds, if we can accept the thought of them as individuals then we also have to accept the thought of a copy of ourselves as a continuation of ourselves, or at least an offspring of sorts.


I also tihnk that science-fiction has a much shorter life than it did saw a century ago. Victorian predictions of the future such as the submarine were eventually realised, but in todays fast paced world no sooner is a fictional idea written about than it becomes reality. Science fiction has become the fast-food of the world of literature.

"I&#39;ll have 1 cyborg and a side order of micro-bugs please"

"your order will be ready to collect at window 2 please have the correct change ready, have a nice day"
There are subcathegories to sci-fi I think. There will always be the commercialised variety with a brief half-life as well as the timeless classics.

It&#39;s just hard to tell which is which with regards to the most immediate ones.


EDit: form.

[brenda]

Yes I think you are right about the quality of sci-fi and the sub-categories, I think their most important role is to blend the relationship we have as humans with the technology that we can sometimes see as a threat, although I also feel that they expand the imagination and teach us to (or remind us how to) suspend our belief.

I did quite a lot of research last year into sci-fi when writting a criticall assessment of Constance Penley&#39;s stsatement that "going into space - both the actuality of it and its science fiction realisation - has become the prime metaphor through which we try to make sense of the word of science and technology and imagine a place for ourselves within it."

[DanB]

Sounds like a fun essay

[Snee]

Originally posted by brenda@9 August 2004 - 22:26
Yes I think you are right about the quality of sci-fi and the sub-categories, I think their most important role is to blend the relationship we have as humans with the technology that we can sometimes see as a threat, although I also feel that they expand the imagination and teach us to (or remind us how to) suspend our belief.
Science fiction, to me, has always been a medium of hope, in many cases it shows humanity to still exist long after we are gone.

And it frequently also offers the idea that there are ways to survive for us, that we may not be as finite as we think.

For me it has, I suppose, been a surrogate for religion, rather than the suspension of my beliefs.

Since I never had much fear of technology to begin with, I suppose my appreciation of science fiction, and science in general comes naturally.



I did quite a lot of research last year into sci-fi when writting a criticall assessment of Constance Penley&#39;s stsatement that "going into space - both the actuality of it and its science fiction realisation - has become the prime metaphor through which we try to make sense of the word of science and technology and imagine a place for ourselves within it."
Does it ring true to you then?

I wish I&#39;d done something like that rather than digging down into the similarities of utopias, and then searching for similar traits in the dystopian plot.

Which isn&#39;t as fun as it may sound. :rolleyes:

[brenda]

Originally posted by danb@9 August 2004 - 20:30
Sounds like a fun essay
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It was farmore interesting to research than it is to read. I even ended up having my name put on a disc that is going into space on a NASA mission this year &#33;&#33;

[DanB]

Originally posted by brenda+9 August 2004 - 21:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (brenda @ 9 August 2004 - 21:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-danb@9 August 2004 - 20:30
Sounds like a fun essay
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It was farmore interesting to research than it is to read. I even ended up having my name put on a disc that is going into space on a NASA mission this year &#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
:01:

[Snee]

Originally posted by brenda+9 August 2004 - 22:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (brenda @ 9 August 2004 - 22:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-danb@9 August 2004 - 20:30
Sounds like a fun essay
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It was farmore interesting to research than it is to read. I even ended up having my name put on a disc that is going into space on a NASA mission this year &#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
:o

*SnnY is very, very jealous*

[brenda]

Originally posted by danb+9 August 2004 - 20:38--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 9 August 2004 - 20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by brenda@9 August 2004 - 21:37
<!--QuoteBegin-danb@9 August 2004 - 20:30
Sounds like a fun essay
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It was farmore interesting to research than it is to read. I even ended up having my name put on a disc that is going into space on a NASA mission this year &#33;&#33;
:01: [/b][/quote]
does that make me a virtual astronaut?

[RGX]

I think it would be hard to tell even if someone tested it and told you. They may say they are in another persons body but are they truly the conciousness of the original person? Or just the data acting as a duplicate and therefore assuming it was the original person?

I hope i&#39;m making sense.

Either way, you would not be able to tell if the "new" body with the persons brain is concious, or if they lost their soul (assuming there was one) in the transfer.....we could end up with a load of copys walking round assuming they are the same as the original but with the originals conciouness destroyed. Whoever the person originally was may be dead...the only way to find out would be to try it, and risk never waking up again and having some glorified neural net walking round telling everyone he&#39;s you.

[Snee]

Originally posted by RGX@9 August 2004 - 22:41
I think it would be hard to tell even if someone tested it and told you. They may say they are in another persons body but are they truly the conciousness of the original person? Or just the data acting as a duplicate and therefore assuming it was the original person?

I hope i&#39;m making sense.

Either way, you would not be able to tell if the "new" body with the persons brain is concious, or if they lost their soul (assuming there was one) in the transfer.....we could end up with a load of copys walking round assuming they are the same as the original but with the originals conciouness destroyed. Whoever the person originally was may be dead...the only way to find out would be to try it, and risk never waking up again and having some glorified neural net walking round telling everyone he&#39;s you.
So your conclusion is that it is impossible to determine?

By introducing the soul you create a new mess.

There&#39;s this scientist, can&#39;t remember the name, who talks of quantuum tubules, and a connection between the conciousness and a higher level.

Whether the souls, or this connection would disappear...now we&#39;re into philosophy.



It is also a "is a perfect copy a person at all, or just a thing?" kind of thing.

In the event you had a harddrive inside you from the start, would you consider yourself to be two people?

As there&#39;s is both the you inside your brain, and the you that resides in the hard-drive.

[brenda]

Kinda going off-topic a bit here but how about comparing it to file-sharing?

Is a copied song any different from the original, indeed is there ever actually an original or just a simulacra?

Is the &#39;original&#39; the one available to buy, bceause as they are mass produced this kind of negates their originality.

Is the original the demo recording done at the studio - because this is made of of different peices of music put together through a machine i.e the drums are recorded first, then the baselin, etc......

Or is the original the song played all together from beginning to end - because any live performace is different from the studio version and also defferent from any other live performance.

I&#39;m beginning to convince myself that there is no &#39;orginal&#39; anything. I&#39;m not even sure that there is an original me :blink:

[RGX]

Untill we have a sure fire way of measuring conciousness or soul or whatever you want to call it, I dont think we can truly determine untill we try it ourselves.

I read a book over my holiday called Ilium. Its a sci fi novel with three intertwining stories, one of which involved a race who used teleportation or "fax portals" to travel from place to place. About halfway through the book they found out that "faxing" involved destroying the old human and creating a copy on the other side rather than teleportation. This obviously came as quite a shock to them and they stopped faxing immediatley. It also presents the moral dilemma of "im just a copy, the original me is gone, my memorys werent really experienced by this conciouness", which must be (excuse the pun) soul destroying. ;)

This is much the same as the teleportation technology that exsists now to transport photons in experiments (as far as i know). It involves making exact copys of the original photon, then destroying it.

BTW Ilium is a great read for anyone wondering. :)

[Snee]

I had to leave this yesterday, but I see you went on with it, and this is interesting.


Originally posted by Brenda+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Brenda)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Kinda going off-topic a bit here but how about comparing it to file-sharing?

Is a copied song any different from the original, indeed is there ever actually an original or just a simulacra?

Is the &#39;original&#39; the one available to buy, bceause as they are mass produced this kind of negates their originality.

Is the original the demo recording done at the studio - because this is made of of different peices of music put together through a machine i.e the drums are recorded first, then the baselin, etc......

Or is the original the song played all together from beginning to end - because any live performace is different from the studio version and also defferent from any other live performance.

I&#39;m beginning to convince myself that there is no &#39;orginal&#39; anything. I&#39;m not even sure that there is an original me[/b]
If we factor in the rest of the body, then you are right, there really isn&#39;t an original you, cells die, and new ones take their place all the time, in fact, it doesn&#39;t take too long to replace all the cells in your body, except those in your brain.

And even new brain cells can be created tho&#39; not at the same rate as the rest.


What you do now, is to define yourself from external perception, rather than to rely on your own mind.

From an outside onlooker&#39;s point of view, the you they percieve is no different if it is a perfect copy.

Therefore, only you might mourn your death, in the society I described earlier, or rather, you wouldn&#39;t, as you had ceased to be even as the copy was created. :blink:

I think the example you give relies on the lack of conciousness on the part of the original, if the original never thinks, then every reproduction that matches it perfectly is as good as the original itself, as it is only defined from outside.

<!--QuoteBegin-RGX

Untill we have a sure fire way of measuring conciousness or soul or whatever you want to call it, I dont think we can truly determine untill we try it ourselves.

I read a book over my holiday called Ilium. Its a sci fi novel with three intertwining stories, one of which involved a race who used teleportation or "fax portals" to travel from place to place. About halfway through the book they found out that "faxing" involved destroying the old human and creating a copy on the other side rather than teleportation. This obviously came as quite a shock to them and they stopped faxing immediatley. It also presents the moral dilemma of "im just a copy, the original me is gone, my memorys werent really experienced by this conciouness", which must be (excuse the pun) soul destroying.

This is much the same as the teleportation technology that exsists now to transport photons in experiments (as far as i know). It involves making exact copys of the original photon, then destroying it.

BTW Ilium is a great read for anyone wondering. [/quote]
Oddly enough, this is something that I react to on tv-series like star trek.

Every time someone is beamed or teleported, no matter the story, they are ripped apart into their constituents and their "pattern" is sent off to a reciever where they are rebuilt.

Personally, I&#39;m of the opinion that every teleportation of this kind is equal to suicide. Well, half of the time I am, then I factor in other matters, like the quantuum connection I mentioned, and I&#39;m more hesitant- "will it reattach itself to the new individual, or not?", "will it still work if there is the possibility to make multiple copies at the recieving end?" and so forth. The matter of having been copied over and over might also be a factor, maybe a human being is then defined by his potential information rather than his continuous conciousness, or somesuch.

I like the term "faxing" tho&#39;. :lol:

And the book sounds like a good read.


EDit: prettied it up.

[(>Zero Cool<)]

I&#39;m sorta scared to post in this thread, I may need to go and hit the books first :blink: :helpsmile:

Do you have a version with pictures?

[Snee]

Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)@10 August 2004 - 14:06
I&#39;m sorta scared to post in this thread, I may need to go and hit the books first :blink: :helpsmile:

Do you have a version with pictures?
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8014/tinkysbag.jpg

There, now there&#39;s a picture and everything.

[(>Zero Cool<)]

Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 12:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 10 August 2004 - 12:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-(>Zero Cool<)@10 August 2004 - 14:06
I&#39;m sorta scared to post in this thread, I may need to go and hit the books first :blink:&nbsp; :helpsmile:

Do you have a version with pictures?
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/8014/tinkysbag.jpg

There, now there&#39;s a picture and everything. [/b][/quote]
:rolleyes: :lol:

so who&#39;s hard drive does she have? :P

[Snee]

I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;

[(>Zero Cool<)]

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:


dunno &#39;man&#39; I never watched it , too scary for me :helpsmile:

anyway I don&#39;t wanna ruin your thread, just ignore me ;)

[DanB]

Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)+10 August 2004 - 13:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ((>Zero Cool<) @ 10 August 2004 - 13:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:
[/b][/quote]
Thats exactly the point :rolleyes:

[Snee]

Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)+10 August 2004 - 14:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ((>Zero Cool<) @ 10 August 2004 - 14:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:


dunno &#39;man&#39; I never watched it , too scary for me :helpsmile:

anyway I don&#39;t wanna ruin your thread, just ignore me ;) [/b][/quote]
You aren&#39;t ruining anything.

Are you sure you don&#39;t have an opinion tho&#39;?

No matter how simple or confusing I don&#39;t mind reading it.


I&#39;m trying to sort out exactly what to think about the thing myself.

[(>Zero Cool<)]

Originally posted by danb+10 August 2004 - 12:30--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 10 August 2004 - 12:30)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)@10 August 2004 - 13:26
<!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:

Thats exactly the point :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
whisper I don&#39;t get it? :unsure:

[(>Zero Cool<)]

Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 12:39--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 10 August 2004 - 12:39)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)@10 August 2004 - 14:26
<!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:


dunno &#39;man&#39; I never watched it , too scary for me :helpsmile:

anyway I don&#39;t wanna ruin your thread, just ignore me ;)
You aren&#39;t ruining anything.

Are you sure you don&#39;t have an opinion tho&#39;?

No matter how simple or confusing I don&#39;t mind reading it.


I&#39;m trying to sort out exactly what to think about the thing myself. [/b][/quote]
I will have to ponder it a bit myself before giving my opinion :)

[Snee]

Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)+10 August 2004 - 14:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ((>Zero Cool<) @ 10 August 2004 - 14:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:39

Originally posted by (>Zero Cool<)@10 August 2004 - 14:26
<!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 12:19
I thought it was a he? :huh:

Get your facts straight before answering man&#33;
a bloke with a handbag :blink:


dunno &#39;man&#39; I never watched it , too scary for me :helpsmile:

anyway I don&#39;t wanna ruin your thread, just ignore me ;)
You aren&#39;t ruining anything.

Are you sure you don&#39;t have an opinion tho&#39;?

No matter how simple or confusing I don&#39;t mind reading it.


I&#39;m trying to sort out exactly what to think about the thing myself.
I will have to ponder it a bit myself before giving my opinion :) [/b][/quote]
Excatly how long are we talking about here? :unsure:

[Snee]

Anyone else have a thought on this? :unsure:

(BUMP)


If you could copy the information in your brain to a harddrive, and swap bodies...

and so forth, would there be a point to it, or would "you" just be dead?


and would it be different if you had had that hard-drive in you head as long as you could remember, so the copy had always been there as much as the information in your head?

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

[ck-uk]

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;

[Snee]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?

[MicroScreen2]

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 19:54
Anyone else have a thought on this? :unsure:

(BUMP)


If you could copy the information in your brain to a harddrive, and swap bodies...

and so forth, would there be a point to it, or would "you" just be dead?


and would it be different if you had had that hard-drive in you head as long as you could remember, so the copy had always been there as much as the information in your head?

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

would your brain not be more comparable to a huge amount of ram, or a huge cache at least?

[Snee]

Originally posted by MicroScreen2+10 August 2004 - 22:10--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MicroScreen2 &#064; 10 August 2004 - 22:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 19:54
Anyone else have a thought on this? :unsure:

(BUMP)


If you could copy the information in your brain to a harddrive, and swap bodies...

and so forth, would there be a point to it, or would "you" just be dead?


and would it be different if you had had that hard-drive in you head as long as you could remember, so the copy had always been there as much as the information in your head?

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

would your brain not be more comparable to a huge amount of ram, or a huge cache at least? [/b][/quote]
I think it&#39;s a more permanent form of storage than just ram, but it&#39;s true that if the brain doesn&#39;t get any energy it stops running.

But I think our memories are encoded with a chemical component to it, so I&#39;d probably compare it to a hard-drive still.

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 21:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 10 August 2004 - 21:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing? [/b][/quote]
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different

[Snee]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk+10 August 2004 - 22:17--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 22:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different [/b][/quote]
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 21:20--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY &#064; 10 August 2004 - 21:20)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right? [/b][/quote]
Yeah snny ,i would&#33;&#33;



But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me&#33;&#33;

[manker]

Not read this thread in it&#39;s entirity yet, to my shame, but I got the gist of it.

I&#39;d say that you are exactly the same person if your brain is recreated, or copied precisely.

Just like if an obese woman loses weight, she&#39;s still the same person. Maybe the &#39;new&#39; body would give her some more confidence but the essence of the person is the same. If an athlete is crippled then he has a different body but is still the same person. Changing the body around the brain or moving the brain to a different body would be interchangable imo - which provided the copying of the brain is exact is doubtless what this is.

If this were proven to be possible I would have no qualms at all about undergoing the procedure - provided the host torso is as perfect as the one I&#39;ve currently got, of course ;) :rolleyes:

Edit: What if they could copy the brain perfectly so there would be two of you. What then? I wonder what differences would manifest over time.

[RGX]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk+10 August 2004 - 20:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?
Yeah snny ,i would&#33;&#33;



But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me&#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]
Why are you so sure?

[Snee]

I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we&#39;d cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn&#39;t be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I&#39;d be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one&#39;s conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn&#39;t be you, either.



Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?


Originally posted by Re the book altered carbon
It&#39;s this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".



The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don&#39;t we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it&#39;s more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he&#39;s thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form.

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by RGX+10 August 2004 - 21:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RGX @ 10 August 2004 - 21:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?
Yeah snny ,i would&#33;&#33;



But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me&#33;&#33;
Why are you so sure? [/b][/quote]
Read through the topic ...

[RGX]

I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn&#39;t this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?

[RGX]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk+10 August 2004 - 20:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:40

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?
Yeah snny ,i would&#33;&#33;



But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me&#33;&#33;
Why are you so sure?
Read through the topic ... [/b][/quote]
Yes, I have. I ask again, why are you so sure? Could you prove it?

[DanB]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk+10 August 2004 - 21:48--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 21:48)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:40

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 20:26

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:20

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:17

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:09
<!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 22:05

And would you want to copy yourself if you were about to die?

if my memories,mind,awareness of my self was there ..i would&#33;&#33;
Do you think you&#39;d still be the person you were then, or just a copy?

Would the person you are be dead, or would he continue in a new body? maybe even just a thing?
Mentaly you would be the same person ,just physicly different
So you&#39;d have nothing against it then?

But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?
Yeah snny ,i would&#33;&#33;



But you, the you writing this, wouldn&#39;t be there tho&#39;, right?

Yes,mental figure,being,will be me&#33;&#33;
Why are you so sure?
Read through the topic ... [/b][/quote]
Thats hardly a good answer :rolleyes:

The topic is made up of any many different views and points which leads to everyone making their own opinion of it, saying read the topic is hardly sound reasoning behinfd your opinion is it? :smilie4:

[Snee]

Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 22:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn&#39;t this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?
Good point.

Still, what gets damaged might not be one&#39;s memories but other functions of the brain.

I had the notion that the part of the cortex that stores one&#39;s long term memory is different from the part that stores the short term information.

The one being the hard-drive, etching our long term memories into our synapses, whereas the short term memory is more fleeting, more like ram, intended fror what with need right this moment.

And the part of you that breaks down would first and foremost be the controlling part, equal to everything else in a computer, maybe.

Coma-patients, and seemingly brain dead people have been known to wake up after extended periods of no activity, was my idea. This when the operative parts of the brain has somehow gotten jump-started or healed.

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn&#39;t this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?
Think theoretically.The technolgy is availible.Base on the actual tranplant&#33;

[RGX]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk+10 August 2004 - 20:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ck-uk @ 10 August 2004 - 20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RGX@10 August 2004 - 21:49
I like the brain/ram analogy better than a hard drive...surely the chemicals in our brain degrade very quickly without a blood supply for repair etc? Wouldn&#39;t this be the same as cutting off the power to a RAM module?

And what about people who become brain dead only a few minutes/hours after their heart has stopped, and are said to be beyond revival even if the rest of their body is fine? Surely this indicates that the brain loses its conciouness when cut off from its blood/electricity charge?
Think theoretically.The technolgy is availible.Base on the actual tranplant&#33; [/b][/quote]
I have yet to see a successful brain transplant. And even if there was one, how could you be sure the conciousness would be kept alive, not just the data storage? They may not be the same thing, hence the entire debate throughout this thread you asked me to read.

[manker]

Originally posted by SnnY+10 August 2004 - 21:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 10 August 2004 - 21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we&#39;d cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn&#39;t be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I&#39;d be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one&#39;s conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn&#39;t be you, either.



Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?

<!--QuoteBegin-Re the book altered carbon
It&#39;s this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".



The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don&#39;t we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it&#39;s more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he&#39;s thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form. [/b][/quote]
I&#39;ve read the whole thread now. It certainly is very interesting, SnnY you make a good chairman. I particularly liked the part about the teleport in Star-Trek, I think in a similar way but am not much concerned with the philosophy behind having our molecules ripped apart and then reconstructed because provided they are reconstructed in exactly the same way, I see no problem.

I think a little different to the others in the thread, apart from ck-uk it seems.

I consider myself to be encompassed completely in my brain, and yes, I think of my body as a &#39;sleeve&#39; if you&#39;d like to put it that way. I&#39;ve taken great care of my body through sport over time but I&#39;ve never thought I have to be contained inside it to continue being me.

I think all this can be summed up in a procedure which is almost science fact. A brain transplant would engender the same emotions and debates because if a perfect copy of the brain is made then it would be akin to a brain transplant. I&#39;d have no problem with that if it saved my life and if it was a success then I&#39;d still be the same person - though affected by the experience just as I&#39;m affected by every other experience in life.

[RGX]

Originally posted by manker+10 August 2004 - 21:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (manker @ 10 August 2004 - 21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:41
I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we&#39;d cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn&#39;t be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I&#39;d be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one&#39;s conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn&#39;t be you, either.



Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?

<!--QuoteBegin-Re the book altered carbon
It&#39;s this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".



The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don&#39;t we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it&#39;s more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he&#39;s thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form.
I&#39;ve read the whole thread now. It certainly is very interesting, SnnY you make a good chairman. I particularly liked the part about the teleport in Star-Trek, I think in a similar way but am not much concerned with the philosophy behind having our molecules ripped apart and then reconstructed because provided they are reconstructed in exactly the same way, I see no problem.

I think a little different to the others in the thread, apart from ck-uk it seems.

I consider myself to be encompassed completely in my brain, and yes, I think of my body as a &#39;sleeve&#39; if you&#39;d like to put it that way. I&#39;ve taken great care of my body through sport over time but I&#39;ve never thought I have to be contained inside it to continue being me.

I think all this can be summed up in a procedure which is almost science fact. A brain transplant would engender the same emotions and debates because if a perfect copy of the brain is made then it would be akin to a brain transplant. I&#39;d have no problem with that if it saved my life and if it was a success then I&#39;d still be the same person - though affected by the experience just as I&#39;m affected by every other experience in life. [/b][/quote]
So you do not beleive in a soul or higher conciousness, and beleive we are simply a sum of our component parts?

[ck-uk]

how could you be sure the conciousness would be kept alive, not just the data storage?

This would depend on the technology&#33;.

You have to hypothesize,make you opinion like us&#33;

[RGX]

Originally posted by ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 21:13

how could you be sure the conciousness would be kept alive, not just the data storage?

This would depend on the technology&#33;.

You have to hypothesize,make you opinion like us&#33;
I am hypothesising. I am hypothesising that you might be wrong.

[manker]

Originally posted by RGX+10 August 2004 - 22:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RGX @ 10 August 2004 - 22:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by manker+10 August 2004 - 21:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (manker &#064; 10 August 2004 - 21:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:41
I, and others posting yesterday, had half a notion at least that we&#39;d cease to be even if we copied ourselves, that we wouldn&#39;t be here to experience things even as the new copy was walking around. At least purely from our point of view.

I felt I&#39;d be dead if if the information in my brain was copied, and the copy continued instead of me, whereas brenda suggested that the entire body is part of one&#39;s conciousness, which might mean that a new body wouldn&#39;t be you, either.



Would your answers mean that both of you, ck-uk and manker might be able to deal with the kind of world I described in my initial post?

<!--QuoteBegin-Re the book altered carbon
It&#39;s this sci-fi novel set in a distant future where people have these sort of hard-drives called cortical stacks in their necks.

Basically, it defines what is human.

When you go to prison, your mind, uploaded from the cortical stack, gets put on storage.

And unless you can afford to pay for the storage of your body, a prisoner released from the same prison may get downloaded in your body, referred to as a "sleeve".



The question is, and I have been thinking a lot about this, whether you would still be you.

I mean, don&#39;t we consider ourselves to be our brains, in a manner of speaking?

This was my first thought, which means one would get killed every time one would swap bodies, as the mind in that body gets replaced with that of the new occupant.

But it&#39;s more than that, in the book the protagonist also looks at other bodies, and it seems to me he&#39;s thinking about them as one would a car, "is it modified", "tuned up" and so forth.

So it seems to me that he identifies himself by the information in his hard-drive rather than that in his mind.

EDit: form.
I&#39;ve read the whole thread now. It certainly is very interesting, SnnY you make a good chairman. I particularly liked the part about the teleport in Star-Trek, I think in a similar way but am not much concerned with the philosophy behind having our molecules ripped apart and then reconstructed because provided they are reconstructed in exactly the same way, I see no problem.

I think a little different to the others in the thread, apart from ck-uk it seems.

I consider myself to be encompassed completely in my brain, and yes, I think of my body as a &#39;sleeve&#39; if you&#39;d like to put it that way. I&#39;ve taken great care of my body through sport over time but I&#39;ve never thought I have to be contained inside it to continue being me.

I think all this can be summed up in a procedure which is almost science fact. A brain transplant would engender the same emotions and debates because if a perfect copy of the brain is made then it would be akin to a brain transplant. I&#39;d have no problem with that if it saved my life and if it was a success then I&#39;d still be the same person - though affected by the experience just as I&#39;m affected by every other experience in life. [/b][/quote]
So you do not beleive in a soul or higher conciousness, and beleive we are simply a sum of our component parts? [/b][/quote]
That is correct. I see nothing worrying about the prospect of a new sleeve, apart from logistics (the procedure going awry) and aesthetics.

[Snee]

My problem, as you will now have read, is that I don&#39;t quite consider a copy of myself to be a continuation of my conciousness, but rather a new individual, this would have been different, I believe, if the copy had coexisted with my brain since before I had achieved self-awareness.


I would consider the process of swapping brains the death of me, so to speak.

From an outside point of view tho&#39;, for the people around me, I suppose I&#39;d still be me.

However, this is what I believe, what I&#39;d want is for the copy to be me, as much as I am. I think, somehow, that I&#39;d like that scenario much better, even tho&#39; I do not subscribe to it.

Perhaps, if I had that hard-drive implanted now, and lived for centuries, I would then consider the person on the drive as much me, as the person inside my brain would have existed only marginally longer than the copy.

Also, since my brain, even with much more advanced technology and medicine than that of today, would have a tendency to degenerate, and the copy might not, the copy might actually be what I considered to be me in the end.

[RGX]

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 21:21
My problem, as you will now have read, is that I don&#39;t quite consider a copy of myself to be a continuation of my conciousness, but rather a new individual, this would have been different, I believe, if the copy had coexisted with my brain since before I had achieved self-awareness.


I would consider the process of swapping brains the death of me, so to speak.

From an outside point of view tho&#39;, for the people around me, I suppose I&#39;d still be me.

However, this is what I believe, what I&#39;d want is for the copy to be me, as much as I am. I think, somehow, iId like that scenario much better, even tho&#39; I do not subscribe to it.

Perhaps, if I had that hard-drive implanted now, and lived for centuries, I would then consider the person on the drive as much me, as the person inside my brain would have existed only marginally longer than the copy.

Also, since my brain, even with much more advanced technology and medicine than that of today, would have a tendency to degenerate, and the copy might not, the copy might actually be what I considered to be me in the end.
This is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread, but you put it much more eloquently. To outsiders, you may appear you, but the essence of your conciouness may have been lost....this new you might be, for want of a better word...soulless. A sum of parts working together like Snny would.

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by RGX+10 August 2004 - 22:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RGX @ 10 August 2004 - 22:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ck&#045;uk@10 August 2004 - 21:13

how could you be sure the conciousness would be kept alive, not just the data storage?

This would depend on the technology&#33;.

You have to hypothesize,make you opinion like us&#33;
I am hypothesising. I am hypothesising that you might be wrong. [/b][/quote]
Ok.

enuff brain work for tonight&#33;&#33;

[manker]

I see that as a very valid concern SnnY. A person&#39;s perception would be particularly important given the suceptability of the mind to suggestion. If you didn&#39;t consider the &#39;new you&#39; to be SnnY then it probably wouldn&#39;t be.

However the continuation of conciousness inside my head would be perceived as unbroken if the procedure went as I imagine it would. The copy of the brain would be made at the exact point that I lost conciousness to the anaesthetic. The new brain would then be implanted to the new sleeve and I would wake up after the proceedure was over.

Even if it took years to complete, in my own mind it would have been seamless. That&#39;s why I&#39;m saying that I believe I&#39;d be the same person. Although as the first paragraph ^^ indicates, I can see why those with different opinions on the soul/higher conciousness issue may not feel the same way.

[RGX]

@ Ck: Mhmm...

[DanB]

Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 22:35
@ Ck: Mhmm...
Tut tut, sshh :nono:

[RGX]

Originally posted by danb+10 August 2004 - 21:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 10 August 2004 - 21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RGX@10 August 2004 - 22:35
@ Ck: Mhmm...
Tut tut, sshh :nono: [/b][/quote]
;)

[ck-uk]

Originally posted by RGX@10 August 2004 - 22:35
@ Ck: Mhmm...
i dont understand...mate&#33;

[Snee]

I&#39;ll try to make this brief as this will have to be my last post for the night.

OT:
@Crystal and Dan: I&#39;m on another computer than my regular one now, and I haven&#39;t got an irc install on this one, so I&#39;ll have to say good night this way.

Sorry I left so abruptly, I had to go take that shower and so on, and when my connection went down anyway, I just shut down, and left it at that.



@RGX: Your argument about the copy becoming soulless is interesting, while I&#39;m not an active believer in souls, I won&#39;t deny the possibility.

If there was a connection between our physical minds and some sort of ethereal entity, the question gets a new dimension of sorts: Will the connection be transfered to the copy, will it gain the soul of the original? And what will happen if this doesn&#39;t happen?

Will the copy simple refuse to come alive? Will it lack something, will it be a machine made out of flesh?

Or will there be no difference at all to anyone, including the copy?



@manker: I find the way you regard your mind to be intriguing.

I think I&#39;m inclined to view my mind as an object, as information etched in flesh, unique and irreplaceable, or at least very nearly so.

You on the other hand seem to consider yourself as something independent of the flesh it currently resides in, as information the stored on a disc, but not the disc itself.

Or even yet, as something intangible, like an idea, or a concept.

Pure information, even, I get the impression, to the point that you wouldn&#39;t mind there being multiple copies as long as the information that is you goes on in it&#39;s entirety.

I find this a very appealing way to look at oneself, as an idea is very hard to kill, if nothing else.


Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, and feel free to expand on the subjects.

[DanB]

Night SnnY :01:

This has been a very interesting thread to read btw

[manker]

Originally posted by SnnY@10 August 2004 - 23:33
@manker: I find the way you regard your mind to be intriguing.

I think I&#39;m inclined to view my mind as an object, as information etched in flesh, unique and irreplaceable, or at least very nearly so.

You on the other hand seem to consider yourself as something independent of the flesh it currently resides in, as information the stored on a disc, but not the disc itself.

Or even yet, as something intangible, like an idea, or a concept.

Pure information, even, I get the impression, to the point that you wouldn&#39;t mind there being multiple copies as long as the information that is you goes on in it&#39;s entirety.

I find this a very appealing way to look at oneself, as an idea is very hard to kill, if nothing else.


Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, and feel free to expand on the subjects.
No no, I regard my mind in almost the same way as you do. As unique and irreplacable. Yet should some innovation, such as cortical stack uploading, become a possibility then provided a perfect copy of my brain could be obtained and formed then I&#39;d regard my mind as being recordable information awaiting a back-up.

I&#39;m merely theorising the possibilities of it being transferred to a place other than my head, I don&#39;t for one moment think it possible but if it was then I&#39;d embrace it provided the procedure was necessary and with a high probability of success.

In other words I&#39;m saying if the technology was there for me to exploit I&#39;d do so and expect to be the same person after the procedure, it was my understanding that you and RGX would not be so welcoming to the possibility of a mind transfer and considered it would be the death of either &#39;you&#39; or &#39;your soul&#39; should it occur.

[tracydani]

I believe that I am what is in my brain(hard drive). My body is only me in as far as how I am effected by my experiences through it. Change bodies and get new types of experiences due to the new body reacting differently to things then the old.

Kind of like if I ran a marathon right now, I&#39;d be changed somewhat by how well I do and how my body reacts to the stress involved. Then change me into a body that is in proper marathon shape and have me run it. No matter what, I will still be the person who practically died running the marathon, even if I can also say I won it :P

I guess I believe my consious self is my memories. If they are all transfered, then I am still me. I also believe my soul is the same(if there has to be a soul).

Basically I believe we are all just advanced computers. Far enough to be self aware.

So if you were to take me and erase all the cigarette burns from my body(don&#39;t really have any) and any memories I would have had getting them, then it never happened to me. I will still have been effected indirectly I guess, because decisions I have made previous to the removal of the burns would have been made based on those experiences.

This leads to what I fear will happen in the future if we get to the point of making these kind of transfers/changes. We face being manipulated by those in power(or by some 13 year old hacker) without ever knowing it. We may end up living according to all the experiences given us. They will still be us, but we will not have had made the decision to do certain things, it will have been made for us.

This could have a tremendous effect on our collective consience(which I believe in but do not really know much about). Do we as a race prosper due to these manipulations, or do we weeken and fail?

TD

[Snee]

Ah, I think I see.

So manker: while you consider yourself to have the type of mind I described, a unique object and so on.

...You&#39;d still accept the copying process, but only if it was the one copy, and only a perfect one to replace/continue the old one.


The source of my misconception then, is, I think due to our perspectives.

Like I said, I believe that anything but a direct, unbroken continuation of the mind I have, even physically, working from within the matter that is also my mind, is not me.

Whereas you consider the continuation of the information that is you, as long as it isn&#39;t altered during transfer, and as long it isn&#39;t altered in function, to be you.



Now here&#39;s the dodgy part: from my perspective it seemed to me then, that you were defined externally, more than internally.

That is to say that as long as you retained your exact function and mode of thought as seen by others, and as long as the copy believed it was you, it was you.

And as I had trouble defining the copy the copy as anything but apart from oneself, and therefore an external viewer...making you more of a concept held by others than the kind of individual I think I (we) are. Sort of, in the mind of the copy, a belief.

And in my mind information, the idea, rather than the mind, information that moved from mind to mind, in this case.


I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t catch your drift, so to speak, it would appear I had made my conclusions on how to percieve the copy before I read what you thought. :blink:


And TD, you too, do consider yourself to be information, rather than the brain it occupies.

But that the soul follows the mind, if there is one, regardless of what flesh it occupies.

Does this mean that you believe that your conciousness continues unbroken physically, throughout the copying process, as the connection to this hypothetical higher plane continues unbroken?

I agree with you on us all being very advanced biological computers, but unlike computers we weren&#39;t built with a specific purpose in mind.

I wonder if this is how life, as opposed to machinery, will one day come to be defined. :blink: Highly advanced, but spontaneously made.


And the thoughts on having one&#39;s mind hacked are interesting too.

Will your mind, but with false memories, be you?
Will it be you if you chose the memories?
And could one call brainwashing, the implantation of beliefs and even memories through suggestion, to be a form of hacking of the soul?


I know your opinion on the first two, but they are interesting questions.

EDit: punctuation and stuff.

[RGX]

I use the term soul in its broadest possible way, it could also be called conciouness....I am inclined to beleive that we have a spark or force that keeps our conciouness "in memory" if you were, and should the brain be copied or transplanted this conciouness would be lost, despite the flesh still being intact.

I like the theory of the RAM module losing power, or the brain dead coma patient....even though the blood is still pumping, the thing that made them concious, this spark, has gone.

This is all just a theory, however.

[Snee]

Originally posted by RGX@11 August 2004 - 13:58
I use the term soul in its broadest possible way, it could also be called conciouness....I am inclined to beleive that we have a spark or force that keeps our conciouness "in memory" if you were, and should the brain be copied or transplanted this conciouness would be lost, despite the flesh still being intact.

I like the theory of the RAM module losing power, or the brain dead coma patient....even though the blood is still pumping, the thing that made them concious, this spark, has gone.

This is all just a theory, however.
While I wouldn&#39;t call it my soul, the electrical activity in my brain is something I consider to be part of my mind.

Would you then feel that you were more you when copied, if the energy from your original brain could be transfered to the copy, somehow?


And something else I&#39;ve been wondering about: would it be different if the brain wasn&#39;t replaced all at once, but that we had it replaced synapse by synapse?

I think so, even if my original mind was replaced in full, but piece by piece, my conciousness would still be the same.

[RGX]

Originally posted by SnnY+11 August 2004 - 12:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 11 August 2004 - 12:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RGX@11 August 2004 - 13:58
I use the term soul in its broadest possible way, it could also be called conciouness....I am inclined to beleive that we have a spark or force that keeps our conciouness "in memory" if you were, and should the brain be copied or transplanted this conciouness would be lost, despite the flesh still being intact.

I like the theory of the RAM module losing power, or the brain dead coma patient....even though the blood is still pumping, the thing that made them concious, this spark, has gone.

This is all just a theory, however.
While I wouldn&#39;t call it my soul, the electrical activity in my brain is something I consider to be part of my mind.

Would you then feel that you were more you when copied, if the energy from your original brain could be transfered to the copy, somehow?


And something else I&#39;ve been wondering about: would it be different if the brain wasn&#39;t replaced all at once, but that we had it replaced synapse by synapse?

I think so, even if my original mind was replaced in full, but piece by piece, my conciousness would still be the same. [/b][/quote]
I would be happy to undertake the procedure if the "spark" could be stored.....perhaps it is just a small charge of bio-electricity. I would need sufficient proof that this is what causes my brain to hold conciouness, but I think it would be quite handy to be able to upload your conciousness to different bodies, perhaps even to robots. (What a thread merge). :lol:

Your memories are part of you I guess Snny, they enable you to make decisions based on past experience....if you were missing some of them who knows what it would do to your personality...

[Snee]

Originally posted by RGX@11 August 2004 - 14:11
Your memories are part of you I guess Snny, they enable you to make decisions based on past experience....if you were missing some of them who knows what it would do to your personality...
I should point out that I meant it in the event that my synapses could be replaced piece by piece, but that whatever replaced them should have the same functions, and memories stored.

Naturally, I wouldn&#39;t much like having my memories erased in the process.

[Snee]

Anyone else wanna have a go at this discussion?

For those you can&#39;t be bothered to read through all of it...
The original question treated the following hypothetical scenario...

If you had a harddrive implanted inside you that recorded your mind and memories, would you still be you if this hardrive was used to create a new copy of you?

If not, would it be different if you had had it inside you since before you became self-aware?

And lastly, would you want to do it regardless, if you were dying?

Opinions have ranged from people accepting the copy as themselves, and that the copied you would still be you, to someone saying that it might well be that your entire body is a part of your conciousness, and that you could neither switch your body for a new one, nor your mind.


Other issues that have come up throughout the discussion are:

...If you could travel through teleportation as featured in the sci-fi novel ilium, and in Star Trek, would you consider the person that emerged at the other end to still be you or just a copy?

...If we have souls, or some other metahysical connection to another plane, will they carry over into the copy?

...Is it correct to compare the brain to a hard-drive at all, would it not be more comparable to a biological form of RAM?



And the very burning issues of what Air Wolf in fact was, and why does Tinky Winky Carry a Hand Bag, as he is a bloke?

[DanB]

AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)


:P

[Snee]

Originally posted by danb@11 August 2004 - 18:56
AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)
I believe you&#39;ve solved that part of the discussion very well, well done dan. :)

Was it just me, or did that helicopter move in ways it shouldn&#39;t have been able to, according to the laws of physics?

[DanB]

Originally posted by SnnY+11 August 2004 - 18:02--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 11 August 2004 - 18:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-danb@11 August 2004 - 18:56
AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)
I believe you&#39;ve solved that part of the discussion very well, well done dan. :)

Was it just me, or did that helicopter move in ways it shouldn&#39;t have been able to, according to the laws of physics? [/b][/quote]
It was a Top Secret helicopter so it could have had special things fitted :D

[Snee]

Originally posted by danb+11 August 2004 - 19:07--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 11 August 2004 - 19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@11 August 2004 - 18:02
<!--QuoteBegin-danb@11 August 2004 - 18:56
AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)
I believe you&#39;ve solved that part of the discussion very well, well done dan. :)

Was it just me, or did that helicopter move in ways it shouldn&#39;t have been able to, according to the laws of physics?
It was a Top Secret helicopter so it could have had special things fitted :D [/b][/quote]
Like special magic my little pony gravity suspending inertial dampeners or something?

[DanB]

Originally posted by SnnY+11 August 2004 - 18:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SnnY @ 11 August 2004 - 18:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by danb@11 August 2004 - 19:07

Originally posted by SnnY@11 August 2004 - 18:02
<!--QuoteBegin-danb@11 August 2004 - 18:56
AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)
I believe you&#39;ve solved that part of the discussion very well, well done dan. :)

Was it just me, or did that helicopter move in ways it shouldn&#39;t have been able to, according to the laws of physics?
It was a Top Secret helicopter so it could have had special things fitted :D
Like special magic my little pony gravity suspending inertial dampeners or something? [/b][/quote]
That will be the one. Clever fellows those military scientists :01:

[Snee]

Originally posted by danb+11 August 2004 - 19:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (danb @ 11 August 2004 - 19:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by SnnY@11 August 2004 - 18:09

Originally posted by danb@11 August 2004 - 19:07

Originally posted by SnnY@11 August 2004 - 18:02
<!--QuoteBegin-danb@11 August 2004 - 18:56
AirWolf (http://www.80snostalgia.com/classictv/airwolf/)

Even more AirWolf (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-2219/)
I believe you&#39;ve solved that part of the discussion very well, well done dan. :)

Was it just me, or did that helicopter move in ways it shouldn&#39;t have been able to, according to the laws of physics?
It was a Top Secret helicopter so it could have had special things fitted :D
Like special magic my little pony gravity suspending inertial dampeners or something?
That will be the one. Clever fellows those military scientists :01: [/b][/quote]
:unsure: Perhaps Tinky winky is another project of theirs, a super soldier thing or so?

[DanB]

Na, he is just a gay muppet thing :lol: :lol:

[Snee]

Originally posted by danb@11 August 2004 - 19:16
Na, he is just a gay muppet thing&nbsp; :lol:&nbsp; :lol:
Aaah, Hence the hand-bag, that explains that.


IRC?

[Snee]

This was serious-ish too, and you can't move it, HA HA!

:boredbump:

[JPaul]

See for a really good guy, you were a serious fucking geek, mate.

No offence like.

[Snee]

Maybe so, but it was an orsum book.

And I still think about whether the copy of me would be me, from time to time.

Maybe it's an OCD-thing, like.

[Gripper]

I think the sum of what you are is your memories and personality,if that could be downloaded into another body then that would become you.