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{SHELL%SHOCKED}
08-15-2004, 01:02 AM
UNDEMOCRATIC DEMOCRATS


Worried Democrats work hard to keep Nader off the ballot by Gary Younge
Tuesday June 1st, 2004

Democratic party activists and officials are campaigning to stop the independent candidate Ralph Nader’s name appearing on the ballot, because they believe it could threaten their effort to defeat George Bush.
They are using every possible legal means to deny voters the chance of voting for Mr Nader, including advising Democrats not to sign his petitions to get on the ballot, challenging the signatures he does get, and showing ads attacking his candidacy.

Mr Nader is running as an anti-war and anti-corporate candidate.

A recent email from a Texas Democratic party official to members, obtained by the Guardian, was headed Keep Nader off the Texas Ballot and continued: "We need to make sure he is nowhere near a ballot in Texas."

Other pressure groups attacking Mr Nader have grown out of the primary campaigns supporting Wesley Clark and Howard Dean.

Michael Frisby, communications director of the Stop Nader Campaign, said: "The point is not just to keep him from getting on the ballot but to make him spend money and time in all of these places so he has less money and time to spend getting votes."

The rules for what is required to get on the presidential ballot vary from state to state. In most of them established parties which obtain a certain proportion of the popular vote are included automatically but independents must submit a petition with a certain number of signatures. Five months before the election Mr Nader’s name is not yet on the ballot in any states.

A representative of his campaign said the opposition’s strategy was misguided, futile and undemocratic. "They’re playing a game of expecting us to drop out and that’s just not going to happen," Kevin Zees said. "They should be working at getting out there and being competitive."

Mr Frisby said his aim was to convince Nader supporters that the issues they held most dear were those most under threat from a Bush victory.

With the country evenly split between Mr Bush and his Democratic challenger, John Kerry, Mr Nader’s candidacy could prove crucial. Opinion polls in at least half a dozen swing states show that Mr Kerry would beat Mr Bush in a two-horse race but lose if Mr Nader was on the ballot.

"If this race is as close as I expect it to be, Nader could get a half, or a third or a fifth of the vote he got last time and be decisive again," Charles Cook, a political analyst in Washington, told the Los Angeles Times.

Before meeting Mr Nader recently Mr Kerry said he would never ask another candidate to abandon an election bid, but hoped to "reduce any rationale" for Mr Nader’s candidacy.

"In the end I hope I can make people aware that a vote for Ralph Nader is a vote for George Bush," he said. "A vote for John Kerry is a vote for the principles and values they care about."

After the meeting Mr Nader said: "He’s a gentleman and he understands we all have to do what we have to do, as he put it."

There is no evidence that Mr Kerry’s campaign is directly involved in these efforts, but senior Democrats in Congress and in his campaign privately concede that they are in favour of keeping him off the ballot.

"A vote for Ralph Nader is like a vote for George Bush so it really doesn’t make any sense for us to have him on the ballot."

Mr Nader’s supporters and the Democratic party have clashed repeatedly since the 2000 election, which many Democrats accuse Mr Nader of handing to George Bush.

In New Hampshire and Florida, where Mr Bush won by narrow margins, Mr Nader won a substantial number of votes.

Mr Nader’s supporters say the polls showed that two thirds of those who voted for him would otherwise not have voted and 10 times as many registered Democrats voted for Mr Bush as voted for Mr Nader.

But Mr Bush’s record, particularly with the war on Iraq, and Mr Nader’s failure to make an impact on the anti-war movement have persuaded a number of former Nader voters, including the film-maker Michael Moore, to back Mr Kerry this year.

In Oregon, where the Democratic candidate Al Gore narrowly won in 2000 and Mr Nader received 4 per cent of the votes, the Stop Nader Campaign recently ran ads asking: "Ralph, what’s more important, your nation or your ego? Don’t do this again."

Another anti-Nader group, the National Progress Fund, has been running ads in Wisconsin and New Mexico, where Mr Gore won narrowly and Mr Nader took 4 per cent and 5 per cent respectively.

"Four years ago I supported Ralph Nader because he stood for the issues I believe in," said Bob Schick, a Maryland school teacher.

"I feel I made a mistake. By supporting Ralph Nader I actually helped George Bush."

Mr Nader believes that the Democratic party is trying "to block an effort that reminds them of their past as a party".

"Why don’t the Democrats go after the 8 million Democrats who voted for George Bush in 2000?" he said recently.

"Thirty-five per cent of union members voted for George Bush in 2000."

So far by a mixture of poor organisation and a late start Mr Nader has done a fairly good job of keeping himself off the ballot.

In Oregon, where a nominating convention of 1,000 voters would have sufficed to put him in contention, only 741 people showed up.

In Texas he missed the deadline and is now suing the state, claiming that its requirements are unconstitutional. The Stop Nader Campaign will be sending lawyers to oppose him.

His other best chance is to be endorsed by parties which are already on the ballot in certain states where they are particularly strong.

He was recently endorsed by the Reform party, set up by the millionaire Ross Perot, which could put him on the ballot in seven states, including the battlegrounds of Florida and Michigan.

Delegates to the Green party conference this month will decide whether to endorse him again - it was with their support that he ran in 2000. If they do he could be on the ballot in the swing state of Wisconsin as well as California.


http://www.globalproject.info/art-1337.html



The Nader/Camejo Campaign's efforts to achieve fair ballot access will be obstructed across the United States from now until November by dictatorial Democratic cadres.


Let us share with you a national recap:
* In Texas we encountered unreasonable and unconstitutional signature requirements and a law that favors political parties by granting them extra petitioning time and a lower signature requirement than Independents. The Democrats, who have abandoned Texas, have threatened to intervene to block our access in a totally safe state for Republicans.
* In Oregon, Democrats deliberately and deceptively stacked our nominating convention auditorium attempting to leave no room for our supporters.
* In Arizona, the Democrats hired three law firms to mount legal assaults on technicalities to keep us off the ballot.
* In Illinois, it's more of the same--another lawsuit to attempt to block our access by forcing a tedious line by line signature check.


At every turn, the Democratic Party and its front groups have gone out of their way, willing to spend millions of dollars to deliberately limit the free exercise of democracy. From the steady barrage of anti-Nader campaigns to actual, harassing challenges to our petition drives, it is made ever-more clear, *the Democrats would prefer to block the Nader/Camejo voters and the rights of these millions of voters to vote for a candidate of their choice.


In the media
- in addition to the book tour list sent yesterday:

* **Be sure to tune in to the Nader/Dean discussion on NPR's Justice Talking. Live coverage, Friday, July 9th at 2pm EST, "Parties, Politics and the State of Elections with Ralph Nader and Howard Dean." Help us ensure a meaningful discussion: Keep Dean From Being a Spoiler!

New press releases:
* Nader Urges Kerry-Edwards Ticket to Strengthen Rights of Citizens to Sue for Corporate Abuse, click here.
* The New King George: An Independence Day Message from the Nader-Camejo Campaign, click here.
* Letter to George W. Bush: You will not reinstate the Draft, click here.


Amy
National Volunteer Coordinator
[email protected]


If you would like to receive updates from our general mailing list, please subscribe now.

If you would like to contribute to Nader 2004, we thank you.

http://www.votenader.com/get_involved/index.php?cid=43




There's always some idiot that will attempt to rationalize this UNDEMOCRATIC activity by pointing out some one else's UNDEMOCRATIC activities and that's bunk.

Darth Sushi
08-15-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@15 August 2004 - 02:03
Tuesday June 1st, 2004
Not exactly breaking news (only 10 weeks late).

j2k4
08-15-2004, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Darth Sushi+14 August 2004 - 20:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Darth Sushi @ 14 August 2004 - 20:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-{SHELL%SHOCKED}@15 August 2004 - 02:03
Tuesday June 1st, 2004
Not exactly breaking news (only 10 weeks late). [/b][/quote]
Picky, picky. :lol:

Ralph never goes out of style, DS.

3RA1N1AC
08-15-2004, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@14 August 2004 - 17:03
There&#39;s always some idiot that will attempt to rationalize this UNDEMOCRATIC activity by pointing out some one else&#39;s UNDEMOCRATIC activities and that&#39;s bunk.
jesus fuckin&#39; christ. why do you even bother posting these enormous cut & pastes when yer just gonna try to prevent any attempt at discussion with completely smug, hateful rhetoric like this? :blink:

Darth Sushi
08-15-2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by j2k4@15 August 2004 - 03:36
Ralph never goes out of style, DS.
http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/cartoons/nader.gif Yup, just ask George. :rolleyes:
http://www.paradisepost.com/content/articles/2004/03/08/cartoons/cartoon.jpg

J'Pol
08-15-2004, 10:48 AM
What exactly is undemocratic about this.

Darth Sushi
08-15-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 August 2004 - 11:49
What exactly is undemocratic about this.
The republican party claims it&#39;s &#39;undemocratic.&#39; But Nader&#39;s own party is keeping him off the ballot of many states. Remember, this is just like when The GOP booted out David Duke with the hood but a republican will probably beg to differ.

J'Pol
08-15-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sushi+15 August 2004 - 12:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Darth Sushi @ 15 August 2004 - 12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@15 August 2004 - 11:49
What exactly is undemocratic about this.
The republican party claims it&#39;s &#39;undemocratic.&#39; But Nader&#39;s own party is keeping him off the ballot of many states. Remember, this is just like when The GOP booted out David Duke with the hood but a republican will probably beg to differ. [/b][/quote]
Darth, I love you like the brother I never had.

However I do not have a clue what you just said. Once again revelling in my own ignorance.

Biggles
08-15-2004, 01:00 PM
J&#39;Pol

I think Darth was saying that in the interests of democracy Nadar&#39;s party is seeing how many votes they get if they don&#39;t stand and that the Republican&#39;s threw one of their people out for bad dress sense.

Least, I think that was the gist of it. :blink:

J'Pol
08-15-2004, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Biggles@15 August 2004 - 14:01
Nadar&#39;s party is seeing how many votes they get if they don&#39;t stand
That would be none, I could have told them that.

Biggles
08-15-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+15 August 2004 - 13:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 15 August 2004 - 13:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Biggles@15 August 2004 - 14:01
Nadar&#39;s party is seeing how many votes they get if they don&#39;t stand
That would be none, I could have told them that. [/b][/quote]
Probably you are right - although this electoral college system coupled with hanging chads could result in a final adjustment in the region of several hundred thousand. :ph34r:

J'Pol
08-15-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Biggles+15 August 2004 - 14:12--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Biggles @ 15 August 2004 - 14:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 August 2004 - 13:04
<!--QuoteBegin-Biggles@15 August 2004 - 14:01
Nadar&#39;s party is seeing how many votes they get if they don&#39;t stand
That would be none, I could have told them that.
Probably you are right - although this electoral college system coupled with hanging chads could result in a final adjustment in the region of several hundred thousand. :ph34r: [/b][/quote]
Good point.

I suppose it is theoretically possible in the Ewe Essay to do rather well without actually standing.

vidcc
08-15-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}@14 August 2004 - 19:03
There&#39;s always some idiot that will attempt to rationalize this UNDEMOCRATIC activity by pointing out some one else&#39;s UNDEMOCRATIC activities and that&#39;s bunk.
i take it from this that you agree that the republicans do undemocratic things.
"2 wrongs don&#39;t make a right" is what i see in this statement .....Well done for admitting the Republicans can be undemocratic


(apart from the idiot bit)

j2k4
08-15-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by vidcc+15 August 2004 - 12:32--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vidcc @ 15 August 2004 - 12:32)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-{SHELL%SHOCKED}@14 August 2004 - 19:03
There&#39;s always some idiot that will attempt to rationalize this UNDEMOCRATIC activity by pointing out some one else&#39;s UNDEMOCRATIC activities and that&#39;s bunk.
i take it from this that you agree that the republicans do undemocratic things.
"2 wrongs don&#39;t make a right" is what i see in this statement .....Well done for admitting the Republicans can be undemocratic


(apart from the idiot bit) [/b][/quote]
One would assume that the spirit of fairness would move you to clearly add the caveat that Democrats are guilty of similar doings. vid. ;)

Shame on you for spinning by omission. :D

vidcc
08-15-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by j2k4+15 August 2004 - 13:00--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 15 August 2004 - 13:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by vidcc@15 August 2004 - 12:32
<!--QuoteBegin-{SHELL%SHOCKED}@14 August 2004 - 19:03
There&#39;s always some idiot that will attempt to rationalize this UNDEMOCRATIC activity by pointing out some one else&#39;s UNDEMOCRATIC activities and that&#39;s bunk.
i take it from this that you agree that the republicans do undemocratic things.
"2 wrongs don&#39;t make a right" is what i see in this statement .....Well done for admitting the Republicans can be undemocratic


(apart from the idiot bit)
One would assume that the spirit of fairness would move you to clearly add the caveat that Democrats are guilty of similar doings. vid. ;)

Shame on you for spinning by omission. :D [/b][/quote]
Oh absolutely...i didn&#39;t try to say that the copy/paste part of his post was untrue..... but then you didn&#39;t raise the point until i turned it around...shame on you :lol: :lol:

gosh admitting to something like that must leave a lump in shocks throat :lol: :lol:

j2k4
08-15-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by vidcc@15 August 2004 - 14:20
gosh admitting to something like that must leave a lump in shocks throat :lol:&nbsp; :lol:
Why would you say that?

He is as much a realist as anyone else here; everyone knows (or should know) what really goes on.

For example:

It hasn&#39;t been fully discussed (and I hope it is not, because to do so would be DUMB), but Jim McGreevey, having "resigned", says he will not be leaving office until November.

Now, political neophytes might be fooled into believing he&#39;s going to hang on "for the good of the people", but those of us in the know (I&#39;ll include you, unless you tell me otherwise) are aware of the blatant politics of the situation, and the fact McGreevey didn&#39;t mention the true "WHY" of the situation in his press conference indicates he wishes this bald intent not be noticed or commented upon.

Wouldn&#39;t you agree?

vidcc
08-15-2004, 07:42 PM
it&#39;s one thing knowing something to be so...another admitting it B)

i agree that there is political games being played in NJ. by both sides. The same would happen if the situation were reversed. I do think there should be an election, but i feel it should take place at the same time as the presidential election...purely for cost and efficiency.

j2k4
08-15-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by vidcc@15 August 2004 - 14:43
it&#39;s one thing knowing something to be so...another admitting it B)

i agree that there is political games being played in NJ. by both sides. The same would happen if the situation were reversed. I do think there should be an election, but i feel it should take place at the same time as the presidential election...purely for cost and efficiency.
Then let him make an interim appointment now, and hold the election as you&#39;ve described. ;)

Darth Sushi
08-15-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@15 August 2004 - 13:50
However I do not have a clue what you just said. Once again revelling in my own ignorance.
Well, here&#39;s my short version: Nader is (or rather was) a member of the green party. The green party is ultra liberal in ideology. The green party can realistically grab 3% of the vote but grab it from the democratic party, which range from ultra to moderately liberal. Remember, the democrats lost the Presidential elections (particularly, The State of Florida) by a few votes (less than 1%). Losing that 3% in Florida cost Al Gore the elections. The green party now realized error of their ways so a semi-liberal candidate (currently Kerry) is now preferable over a conservative republican like Bush. Thus the green party is no longer supporting Nader. Nader, for some strange reason is trying to run as a independent (very late decision and very strange). Without the support of the green party, Nader cannot get on several state ballots (without the green party because he applied too late in many states), and will be lucky to grab 1% of the votes later this year. Yet both the green and democratic parties are afraid that 1% can have a repeat of the last elections. That&#39;s why there is a campaign to stop him (legally of course). The cry of &#39;undemocratic&#39; is simply the conservatives hoping for a repeat of the Florida results. Remember, Nader is or was an ultra-liberal so why would the GOP republicans try to protect Nader? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (conservatives don&#39;t sleep with liberals let alone ultra-liberals). A few years ago, the republicans removed a party member (David Duke) who was a klu-klutz-klan leader (white supremacy group) during a presidential election. The green party is essentially trying to do the same thing by removing Nader, which is why I chuckle at the phrase &#39;undemocratic&#39; especially when both the democratic and republican parties have done similar things legally.

Conspiracy theorists believe Nader is being funded by Bush lovers hoping for a repeat of the last elections. Who knows? :frusty:

J'Pol
08-15-2004, 08:24 PM
Darth,

Thanks for that, I appreciate the obvious effort you put in.

What we are talking about then is, in essence tactical voting. Which has been an integral part of the democratic process for as long as it has existed. It makes absolute sense for the Green Party to realize that they prefer one outcome of the election to another and to factor this into their political decisions.

If they then chose to withdraw support from someone who could scupper their political ends that in my view is entirely democratic. Particularly if by doing so they see a positive benefit to their political agenda. For a group like the Green Party it must surely be the policies which are important, rather than the power to make them.

I fail to see the problem.

spinningfreemanny
08-15-2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by vidcc@15 August 2004 - 19:43
i agree that there is political games being played in NJ. by both sides. The same would happen if the situation were reversed. I do think there should be an election, but i feel it should take place at the same time as the presidential election...purely for cost and efficiency.
Huh, I didn&#39;t even know there were 2 sides in NJ...
The one or two republicans there are just calling for the Dems to quit playing games and hold an election; Thats hardly playing games.
You might be right about situations reversed though.

ziggyjuarez
08-15-2004, 09:19 PM
:)

vidcc
08-15-2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by ziggyjuarez@15 August 2004 - 15:20
:)
Not enough threads to spam in the lounge to get your star count up ziggy?

Darth Sushi
08-15-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by ziggyjuarez@15 August 2004 - 22:20
:)
post whore :D

SuperJude™
08-16-2004, 05:32 PM
Al Gore lost because he could not even carry his own state, that is my belief, it should never have come to Florida.

I do not like the "Don&#39;t vote for Nader&#33;" thought of democrats. I mean one should vote for who they believe in. One should not expect others to change their beliefs because your weak candidate can&#39;t pull it off themselves.

Frankly maybe some of Nader&#39;s views on emmisions more closely mirror my views. I will go do far as to say at least I know who Nader is and what he stands for, the same for Bush.

Once again another example of how the Democratic party and their supporters lose people like me. Hey man I wanna vote Nader Bush or Kerry that is MY damn decision, and if Kerry loses because people voted for Nader, too bad try having opinions next time.

-SJ™

clocker
08-16-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sushi@15 August 2004 - 14:13


Conspiracy theorists believe Nader is being funded by Bush lovers hoping for a repeat of the last elections. Who knows? :frusty:
That is hardly a "conspiracy theory" it is a fact. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60340-2004Jul18.html)
Many staunch Republicans ( Ben Stein to name but one) have donated to the Nader campaign with the express intent of diverting votes from Kerry.

Darth Sushi
08-16-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by SuperJude™@16 August 2004 - 18:33
I do not like the "Don&#39;t vote for Nader&#33;" thought of democrats. I mean one should vote for who they believe in. One should not expect others to change their beliefs because your weak candidate can&#39;t pull it off themselves.
What about the "Don&#39;t vote for Nader" by the Green party? You know, Nader&#39;s own party&#33; Then there&#39;s the "Don&#39;t vote for Kerry" by the GOP. Also, you have "Don&#39;t vote for Bush" by Democrats. It&#39;s not a new concept. In fact it&#39;s democracy in action because only just free speech. "Don&#39;t vote for Nader," is not a felony yet the media (the conservative ones at least) seems to focus only on Democrats ignoring the Green Party. Nobody is going to switch parties because some Democrats said "Don&#39;t vote for Nader," for I know you&#39;re just a conservation hoping for a Bush win. The real question should be "why is Nader running when he cannot get on several states ballots because he waited too late to apply?" Why run for President when half the population cannot even vote for him? Why? If lots of people cannot even vote for Nader, then the phrase "Don&#39;t vote for Nader" is a moot point. Once again, it&#39;s a moot point. If you&#39;re offended by a moot phrase uttered by some Democrats, the you&#39;re simply a Republican, not a Democrat or undecided voter on the fence.

bigboab
08-16-2004, 06:17 PM
I know its really not &#39;my election&#39;*, but does it matter who gets in. They all seem to be corrupt, irrespective of party or country. Those that are not corrupt, get corrupted or shot.

Governments and committees are elcted by the people to represent themselves.







* A wee Chinese girl I know told me recently that I(Me) dont get them anymore. I dont know what she means.

Darth Sushi
08-16-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by bigboab@16 August 2004 - 19:18
I know its really not &#39;my election&#39;*, but does it matter who gets in. They all seem to be corrupt, irrespective of party or country. Those that are not corrupt, get corrupted or shot.

Governments and committees are elcted by the people to represent themselves.
It matters. Al Gore would not have never invaded Iraq. Personally, I&#39;m voting for the candidate who will do the least amount of damage.

bigboab
08-16-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Darth Sushi+16 August 2004 - 18:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Darth Sushi @ 16 August 2004 - 18:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigboab@16 August 2004 - 19:18
I know its really not &#39;my election&#39;*, but does it matter who gets in. They all seem to be corrupt, irrespective of party or country. Those that are not corrupt, get corrupted or shot.

Governments and committees are elcted by the people to represent themselves.
It matters. Al Gore would not have never invaded Iraq. Personally, I&#39;m voting for the candidate who will do the least amount of damage. [/b][/quote]
Thats the trouble Darth. None of them ever invade anywhere. They get our kids to do it for them.