Study Shows The Bush Plan Is Good

[Busyman]

NOT!!!!

Study: Rich Getting Richer

Over two decades, the income gap has steadily increased between the richest Americans, who own homes and stocks and got big tax breaks, and those at the middle and bottom of the pay scale, whose paychecks buy less, government data show.

The growing disparity is even more pronounced in this recovering economy. Wages are stagnant and the middle class is shouldering a larger tax burden. Prices for health care, housing, tuition, gas and food have soared.

The wealthiest 20 percent of households in 1973 accounted for 44 percent of total U.S. income, according to the Census Bureau. Their share jumped to 50 percent in 2002, while everyone else's fell. For the bottom fifth, the share dropped from 4.2 percent to 3.5 percent.

More than million jobs have been added back to the 2.6 million lost since President Bush took office, but they pay less and offer fewer benefits, such as health insurance. The new jobs are concentrated in health care, food services, and temporary employnment firms, all lower-paying industries. Temp agencies alone account for about a fifth of all new jobs.


I think article also forgot about security jobs.

[clocker]

What you don't mention is that the plan was that as the rich got richer, they would spend more and the wealth would "trickle down" to us common folk.
In my experience this has NOT happened.
My profession ( clockmaker) was dependent upon the discretionary income of the moderately well-to-do, after all, no one really needs a $10K clock.
For the past few years the rich folk I have been used to dealing with have completely stopped spending money and have instead tried to secure it.
With the uncertain stock market and stagnent economy, those with wealth have felt very uneasy about future prospects and the free-wheeling days of the late '90s are gone.

So much for Bush's economic plan...time to try another.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by clocker@17 August 2004 - 09:21
What you don't mention is that the plan was that as the rich got richer...




With the uncertain stock market and stagnent economy, those with wealth have felt very uneasy about future prospects and the free-wheeling days of the late '90s are gone.


The rich got richer?

So what?

Wealth is not a zero-sum game.


As to the economy, it is recovering, slowly but steadily.

9/11 may have added a permanent element of instability, but it too has largely rebounded from it's post 9/11 low.

If a Democrat had been in the White House, the same thing would have happened, but more slowly, because a Democrat wouldn't dream of cutting taxes as Bush did.

BTW-

If ever I am in a position to buy a really nice clock, you will find yourself building the biggest bestest clock ever.

[spinningfreemanny]

Hmm, I've wondered what "clocker" ment... :huh:

[spinningfreemanny]

Originally posted by Busyman@17 August 2004 - 14:03
NOT!!!!

The wealthiest 20 percent of households in 1973 accounted for 44 percent of total U.S. income, according to the Census Bureau. Their share jumped to 50 percent in 2002, while everyone else's fell. For the bottom fifth, the share dropped from 4.2 percent to 3.5 percent.
The top 20% also shoulders over 80% of the tax burden, though accounting for only 50% of the income.

[J'Pol]

The concept of a natural dissipation of wealth is severely flawed. It is based on the concept that those with the money will spend it, rather than hoarding it.

This assumes that the wealth holders will never get worried about their spending and will always do it.

However in an unstable economy this becomes less likely. Indeed in an economy where interest rates are kept high, in order to fight inflation the rich are likely to save rather than spending. Taking advantage of said interest rates.

So what we then get is less wealth being spread and at the same time the poor having to borrow, at higher interest rates, costing them more money.

I'm afraid the capitalist utopia is not a viable economic model. At least not for the silent minority. Who are too busy / tired working all hours God sends to become politically active and do anything about it. There's the irony, the wealthy have the time and resources to ensure that their best interests are served.

Which is why the poor need wealthy people, of good conscience, to fight their corner.

[Busyman]

Another tidbit is that affordable housing is actually becoming less affordable.

There was a sweet spot to buy your house in the US.

That was shortly after 9/11.

You had a slight spike in housing cost but ultra-low interest rates.

Very soon as we have this so-called rebound in the economy, you will have high interest rates and high housing costs, seeing that property rarely depreciates that much.

I see rinky-dink homes at exorbitent prices now. Since June rates have gone up half a point (which is still low).

The problem is that wages have not gone up so now is the time to move if you haven't.

Rich folk of course don't have to worry about such things.

[clocker]

Originally posted by j2k4@17 August 2004 - 13:42


If ever I am in a position to buy a really nice clock, you will find yourself building the biggest bestest clock ever.
I would be honored, capitalist pig.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by J'Pol@17 August 2004 - 18:02
The concept of a natural dissipation of wealth is severely flawed. It is based on the concept that those with the money will spend it, rather than hoarding it.

This assumes that the wealth holders will never get worried about their spending and will always do it.

However in an unstable economy this becomes less likely. Indeed in an economy where interest rates are kept high, in order to fight inflation the rich are likely to save rather than spending. Taking advantage of said interest rates.

So what we then get is less wealth being spread and at the same time the poor having to borrow, at higher interest rates, costing them more money.

I'm afraid the capitalist utopia is not a viable economic model. At least not for the silent minority. Who are too busy / tired working all hours God sends to become politically active and do anything about it. There's the irony, the wealthy have the time and resources to ensure that their best interests are served.

Which is why the poor need wealthy people, of good conscience, to fight their corner.
In short, "trickle down economics" is the fantasy creation of the rich, which they use to justify the legislation they approve.

It is an economic conspiracy, that is what I believe. Why? 15 years after hearing about it, and observing it in action, it doesn't pan out.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by J'Pol@17 August 2004 - 15:02
The concept of a natural dissipation of wealth is severely flawed. It is based on the concept that those with the money will spend it, rather than hoarding it.

This assumes that the wealth holders will never get worried about their spending and will always do it.

However in an unstable economy this becomes less likely. Indeed in an economy where interest rates are kept high, in order to fight inflation the rich are likely to save rather than spending. Taking advantage of said interest rates.

So what we then get is less wealth being spread and at the same time the poor having to borrow, at higher interest rates, costing them more money.

I'm afraid the capitalist utopia is not a viable economic model. At least not for the silent minority. Who are too busy / tired working all hours God sends to become politically active and do anything about it. There's the irony, the wealthy have the time and resources to ensure that their best interests are served.

Which is why the poor need wealthy people, of good conscience, to fight their corner.
Dissipation is the wrong model.

Investment is the word.

The rich are compelled to get richer, and this is not accomplished by stuffing mattresses with cash.


BTW-

J'Pol-

I've been instructed to inquire of you whether you have an unabridged version of Atlas Shrugged in audio format; MagicNakor said you might? :huh:

[clocker]

Originally posted by j2k4@17 August 2004 - 18:31


Investment is the word.

The rich are compelled to get richer, and this is not accomplished by stuffing mattresses with cash.


Be that as it may, the quest for greater wealth doesn't imply any benefit whatsoever to the underclasses.

Us less fortunate benefit if the wealthy spend cash on goods and services that we provide.
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by clocker+17 August 2004 - 20:53--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 17 August 2004 - 20:53)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@17 August 2004 - 18:31


Investment is the word.

The rich are compelled to get richer, and this is not accomplished by stuffing mattresses with cash.


Be that as it may, the quest for greater wealth doesn&#39;t imply any benefit whatsoever to the underclasses.

Us less fortunate benefit if the wealthy spend cash on goods and services that we provide.
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all. [/b][/quote]
On a side note there are &#036;30 million dollar condos for sale in NYC.

Buying one helps provide jobs for cleaning crew, doorman, concierge, and building engineer.

What the hell do you know clocker?

Nice name btw, me bein&#39; from da hood and all.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by clocker@17 August 2004 - 19:53
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all.
Should it?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by j2k4+17 August 2004 - 23:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 17 August 2004 - 23:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-clocker@17 August 2004 - 19:53
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all.
Should it?[/b][/quote]
Well, given the logic behind "trickle down", "yes" it should.

He (Bill Gates) gets tax breaks to benefit the economy, including the insane constructors of needlessly costly and frivilous clocks that only have aesthetic and not functional value.

Investing in Gold is the anti-thesis of this trickle down economic theory. In fact, it supports the concept that the more the rich get rich, the more more they want to lock it in.

Gold is bad for clockers.

[Alex H]

How could "dissipation" of wealth ever work? The entire concept of aquiring wealth is based on retaining money&#33; You don&#39;t get richer by giving away or spending all your money, you get richer by retaining as much of your income as possible and then using it to make more money (through investment). Ha&#33;

clocker - WOW&#33; How cool, we learn something new each day. Have you got any pics of clocks you&#39;ve made? I&#39;m sure we&#39;d all like to check out your handiwork. :)

[j2k4]

Originally posted by hobbes+17 August 2004 - 20:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 17 August 2004 - 20:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by j2k4@17 August 2004 - 23:13
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@17 August 2004 - 19:53
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all.
Should it?
Well, given the logic behind "trickle down", "yes" it should.

He (Bill Gates) gets tax breaks to benefit the economy, including the insane constructors of needlessly costly and frivilous clocks that only have aesthetic and not functional value.

Investing in Gold is the anti-thesis of this trickle down economic theory. In fact, it supports the concept that the more the rich get rich, the more more they want to lock it in.

Gold is bad for clockers. [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t think he invests all his money in Krugaraands, do you?

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Alex H@17 August 2004 - 20:21
clocker - WOW&#33; How cool, we learn something new each day. Have you got any pics of clocks you&#39;ve made? I&#39;m sure we&#39;d all like to check out your handiwork. :)
If he doesn&#39;t, I do.

C&#39;mon, Clocker, don&#39;t be modest&#33; :)

[hobbes]

Originally posted by j2k4+17 August 2004 - 23:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 17 August 2004 - 23:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by hobbes@17 August 2004 - 20:18

Originally posted by j2k4@17 August 2004 - 23:13
<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@17 August 2004 - 19:53
Bill Gates investing in Krugeraands may do him a world of good, but enrichens me not at all.
Should it?
Well, given the logic behind "trickle down", "yes" it should.

He (Bill Gates) gets tax breaks to benefit the economy, including the insane constructors of needlessly costly and frivilous clocks that only have aesthetic and not functional value.

Investing in Gold is the anti-thesis of this trickle down economic theory. In fact, it supports the concept that the more the rich get rich, the more more they want to lock it in.

Gold is bad for clockers.
I don&#39;t think he invests all his money in Krugaraands, do you? [/b][/quote]
You asked "should it?"

I answered, "yes, it should." That was the logic behind his tax breaks via the trickle down theory.

As Clocker stated, it ISN&#39;T, but the gold is doing well.

[clocker]

Originally posted by j2k4+17 August 2004 - 19:37--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 17 August 2004 - 19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Alex H@17 August 2004 - 20:21
clocker - WOW&#33; How cool, we learn something new each day. Have you got any pics of clocks you&#39;ve made? I&#39;m sure we&#39;d all like to check out your handiwork.&nbsp; :)
If he doesn&#39;t, I do.

C&#39;mon, Clocker, don&#39;t be modest&#33; :) [/b][/quote]
I am not modest...just disorganized ATM.
All new Windows install, halfbuilt PC and a mess &#39;o CDs...have no clue where the pics might be right now.
If you want j2, go right ahead.

[Alex H]

Yay&#33; clocker&#39;s clocks&#33;

[vidcc]

there&#39;s an anecdote about clockmaking that made me chuckle when i heard it, the truthness of it may not be entirely so but it was funny when i heard it.
A Uni friend told of his holiday when he stayed at a friends house that has a pool. He had always had the hots for his friends sister and she decided to go topless while sunbathing and as he lay on the sunlounger watching her put the suncream on her breasts he became a clockmaker....he made a human sundial :lol:

sorry to go off topic but reading the above brought back an old memory of some funny people.

[clocker]

Ah, yes...

Nothing like a good clock joke to start the day out right.

Admittedly, horological humor may be an acquired taste....

[j2k4]

Okay, then.

I need a quick lesson in how to post the pics from my pics/docs.

Anybody?

[vidcc]

Originally posted by j2k4@18 August 2004 - 13:20
Okay, then.

I need a quick lesson in how to post the pics from my pics/docs.

Anybody?
do you have webspace?

[j2k4]

Nope, just the pics on my HDD.

I thought the board had added the ability to "host it&#39;s own", or is that just a pipedream?

[lynx]

Originally posted by j2k4@18 August 2004 - 20:58
Nope, just the pics on my HDD.

I thought the board had added the ability to "host it&#39;s own", or is that just a pipedream?
AFAIK that&#39;s only for avs and sigs.

For other pics, try uploadit.org (http://www.uploadit.org/)

:angry: Anti-spam :angry:

[j2k4]

Thanks, Lynx.

I&#39;ll remember that; Vidcc is going to host them, should be one up shortly, I think-we&#39;ll try more when we see how this works. ;)

[vidcc]

Originally posted by j2k4@18 August 2004 - 15:22
Thanks, Lynx.

I&#39;ll remember that; Vidcc is going to host them, should be one up shortly, I think-we&#39;ll try more when we see how this works. ;)
http://www.nigelhumour.co.uk/clock4.jpg

as promised.... impressive work

[Alex H]

OMFG&#33; That&#39;s amazing clocker&#33;

[hobbes]

Originally posted by vidcc+18 August 2004 - 19:24--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (vidcc &#064; 18 August 2004 - 19:24)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@18 August 2004 - 15:22
Thanks, Lynx.

I&#39;ll remember that; Vidcc is going to host them, should be one up shortly, I think-we&#39;ll try more when we see how this works. ;)
http://www.nigelhumour.co.uk/clock4.jpg

as promised.... impressive work [/b][/quote]
It is a special, to be sure.

It is my "count down" piece.

Designed by Clocker to countdown my prision sentence. I took care of a "situation" for him, and now for the next 30 years, I get to appreciate his artistry.

[vidcc]

http://www.nigelhumour.co.uk/clock2.jpg

http://www.nigelhumour.co.uk/clock3.jpg

[clocker]

Originally posted by hobbes@18 August 2004 - 20:04


Designed by Clocker to countdown my prision sentence.&nbsp; I took care of a "situation" for him, and now for the next 30 years, I get to appreciate his artistry.

http://hq.cosmo.com.br/images/hqcoisa/hqc33_filmes_hannibal.jpg
See ya in 2029, hobbsie&#33;

[bigboab]

Originally posted by clocker+19 August 2004 - 04:06--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 19 August 2004 - 04:06)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@18 August 2004 - 20:04


Designed by Clocker to countdown my prision sentence. I took care of a "situation" for him, and now for the next 30 years, I get to appreciate his artistry.

http://hq.cosmo.com.br/images/hqcoisa/hqc33_filmes_hannibal.jpg
See ya in 2029, hobbsie&#33; [/b][/quote]
I am saddened. I did not think you had a cruel streak, Clocker. :( What did Hobbes do to deserve this FlashGordonesque torture inflicted?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by bigboab+19 August 2004 - 05:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigboab &#064; 19 August 2004 - 05:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by clocker@19 August 2004 - 04:06
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes@18 August 2004 - 20:04


Designed by Clocker to countdown my prision sentence. I took care of a "situation" for him, and now for the next 30 years, I get to appreciate his artistry.

http://hq.cosmo.com.br/images/hqcoisa/hqc33_filmes_hannibal.jpg
See ya in 2029, hobbsie&#33;
I am saddened. I did not think you had a cruel streak, Clocker. :( What did Hobbes do to deserve this FlashGordonesque torture inflicted?[/b][/quote]
Boab,

Perhaps you remember Clockers old signature?

"A friend will help you move, a good friend will help you move a body".

Anyway guess who got holding the proverbial (body)bag.

http://members.tripod.com/~CARIART/Adam_West.jpg


But holy sprockets, Boy Wonder, hear me now and believe me later, the chap has talent.

[bigboab]

There is a cruel streak in the man. :ph34r: I have to seriously reconsider if I should return this young lady into his grasp. :ph34r:

[j2k4]

Put the other ones up, vid?

They&#39;re in your in-box. :)

NEVERMIND-didn&#39;t see that you already had.

Well done, and thanks. :)

[J'Pol]

I bought a watch the last time I was in Manchester, a few weeks ago.

It synchronizes with atomic clocks which send out a signal of the (accurate) time, pretty much anywhere in the UK. The watch displays if it has such a signal and how strong it is.

It is more accurate than I would ever need, I bought it from Maplins and it cost £24.99.

Anything other than this is a curiosity. It is difficult to make, attractive, esoteric, but ultimately impractical. So why waste valuable resources when technology can achieve so much more, at a fraction of the cost.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@19 August 2004 - 18:36
I bought a watch the last time I was in Manchester, a few weeks ago.

It synchronizes with atomic clocks which send out a signal of the (accurate) time, pretty much anywhere in the UK. The watch displays if it has such a signal and how strong it is.

It is more accurate than I would ever need, I bought it from Maplins and it cost £24.99.

Anything other than this is a curiosity. It is difficult to make, attractive, esoteric, but ultimately impractical. So why waste valuable resources when technology can achieve so much more, at a fraction of the cost.
Wet blanket.

I&#39;m listening to Leo Kottke, so there&#33; :P

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by j2k4+20 August 2004 - 00:42--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 20 August 2004 - 00:42)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@19 August 2004 - 18:36
I bought a watch the last time I was in Manchester, a few weeks ago.

It synchronizes with atomic clocks which send out a signal of the (accurate) time, pretty much anywhere in the UK. The watch displays if it has such a signal and how strong it is.

It is more accurate than I would ever need, I bought it from Maplins and it cost £24.99.

Anything other than this is a curiosity. It is difficult to make, attractive, esoteric, but ultimately impractical. So why waste valuable resources when technology can achieve so much more, at a fraction of the cost.
Wet blanket.

I&#39;m listening to Leo Kottke, so there&#33; :P [/b][/quote]
I knew you were going to say that.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+19 August 2004 - 18:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 19 August 2004 - 18:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by j2k4@20 August 2004 - 00:42
<!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@19 August 2004 - 18:36
I bought a watch the last time I was in Manchester, a few weeks ago.

It synchronizes with atomic clocks which send out a signal of the (accurate) time, pretty much anywhere in the UK. The watch displays if it has such a signal and how strong it is.

It is more accurate than I would ever need, I bought it from Maplins and it cost £24.99.

Anything other than this is a curiosity. It is difficult to make, attractive, esoteric, but ultimately impractical. So why waste valuable resources when technology can achieve so much more, at a fraction of the cost.
Wet blanket.

I&#39;m listening to Leo Kottke, so there&#33; :P
I knew you were going to say that. [/b][/quote]
That&#39;s due, no doubt, to your atomic timing capability. :)

[Alex H]

clocker, those are truly amazing. Whats the story? How do you sell them? How much for? Who buys them?... Um, wow again&#33;

[clocker]

Thank you.
There is a very small community of clockmakers...typically loners, we meet every year at the national competition of the NAWCC. Many times, buyers are met and roped in there.
Typically the pieces are commissioned and construction takes about a year ( well, that&#39;s how long it takes lazy, ole me).
Prices vary...figure &#036;10K and up depending on spec...no case included.

[J'Pol]

Like I said, expensive curiosities. Made for the idle rich by the plain idle.

Get a proper job you bloody time waster (pun intended). There must be some cars needing washed where you are.

Artisan my arse.

[clocker]

Having spent years acquiring the skills necessary to persue this profession it&#39;s fortunate that your insight has saved me from further wasteful shilly-shallying about.

Time to persue a more socially beneficial skill.

"Would you care for fries with that sir?"

[bigboab]

Originally posted by clocker@20 August 2004 - 14:13
Having spent years acquiring the skills necessary to persue this profession it&#39;s fortunate that your insight has saved me from further wasteful shilly-shallying about.

Time to persue a more socially beneficial skill.

"Would you care for fries with that sir?"
Keep up your good work Clocker. :) There are very few of your kind left. In years to come someone will ask &#39;what did Clocker do&#39;. How can one be so dedicated to spend a whole year constructing a thing of beauty, for a pittance. ;)



P.S. Dont foget to wear rubber gloves when washing cars. You&#39;ll get rheumatics at your age. :lol: :lol: I see JP has followed his own advice and is working as a &#39;lollipop&#39; man now. :)

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by clocker@20 August 2004 - 15:13
Having spent years acquiring the skills necessary to persue this profession it&#39;s fortunate that your insight has saved me from further wasteful shilly-shallying about.

Time to persue a more socially beneficial skill.

"Would you care for fries with that sir?"
Glad to see I&#39;m not too late.

You forgot to ask if I wanted to "go large" so I get it free and it comes out of your minimum wage.

Now don&#39;t you feel more satisfied than that old fannying about you used to get up to.

Oh and can I just say that those who can create such beautiful things do so at Gods behest. Whether they know it or not.

Thanks for raising the world&#39;s average creativity. It really is needed nowadays more than ever.