Michael Moore's Acceptance Speech

[Infested Cats]

I love Michael Moore, and his views.
His acceptance speech, i thought, took a lot of balls, and was absoluteley brilliant:


Whoa. On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan from Canada, I'd like to thank the Academy for this. I have invited my fellow documentary nominees on the stage with us, and we would like to — they're here in solidarity with me because we like nonfiction. We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fictition of duct tape or fictition of orange alerts we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And any time you got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up. Thank you very much.

Also, watch this video where the press is asking him questions: http://mfile.akamai.com/8629/asf/clips.dow...ature2_300k.asx (http://mfile.akamai.com/8629/asf/clips.download.akamai.com/8629/DocumentaryFeature2_300k.asx)

[Z]

is he american? r u american? :huh:

[kAb]

hmm, i thought it was a bad speech...

[soopaman]

Originally posted by kAb@24 March 2003 - 23:34
hmm, i thought it was a bad speech...

I thought it took a lot a balls to come out with that statement in these troubled times. He showed at lot more courage than the so-called "anti-war couple" Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon. They claim to oppose the war but when the opportunity was there they bottled it and thought only of their careers. Whores!!! I am hugely sorry that the late, great Bill Hicks isn't with us anymore. He'd definately have something to say and wouldn't give a fuck about saying it!!! Bowling for Columbine was the best fucking movie nominated for an Oscar ( in any category ), it was funny, poignant, sad, angry, scary and utterly compelling. If you haven't seen it - WATCH IT NOW!!!!

[Bender]

Originally posted by soopaman@25 March 2003 - 00:51
Bowling for Columbine was the best fucking movie nominated for an Oscar ( in any category ), it was funny, poignant, sad, angry, scary and utterly compelling. If you haven't seen it - WATCH IT NOW!!!!
... and 'Roger and me', and all his other films. (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hc&id=1800064216&cf=movies&intl=us) :)


Thanks, IC, I just knew you were going to post this. B)

[ClubDiggler]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Don't agree with him though!!!

B)

[Infested Cats]

Good article about Moore from Time.com:

Monday, Mar. 24, 2003
Shame on You, Mr. Moore! Shame on You!
The 'Bowling for Columbine' auteur had every qualification to make his antiwar speech at the Oscars. That didn't make it any less stupid
By JAMES PONIEWOZIK
It may not be the most popular thing to say today, but Michael Moore had not only every right but every legitimate qualification to make an antiwar speech — "Shame on you, Mr. Bush! Shame on you!" — at the 2003 Oscars. The standard reason to discount political speeches from Hollywood celebs, after all, is that we don't give a crap about their political thoughts: their job is to stand up, look pretty, collect their $25 million and give US and People something to write about.

One can hardly say that about Michael Moore. In fact, there is not much reason that anyone cares about Michael Moore except for his political opinions. From "Roger and Me" through his Oscar-winning "Bowling for Columbine", his movie are less documentaries in the usual sense than artfully constructed and often hilariously funny editorials. Agree with him or not, he is, unlike Susan Sarandon, nothing if he is not a professional commentator; and thus it was not inherently stupid for him to make his speech.

No. His speech was stupid for entirely different reasons.

The first is that — and this is a characteristic flaw of Moore's movies — it was a shrill harangue that would make a person ashamed even for agreeing with it. By starting off his screed by attacking the legitimacy of George W. Bush's election, he committed the same mistake as too many leaders of the antiwar movement, such as the leaders of ANSWER: he couldn't resist the temptation to lump his antiwar stance in with the rest of his portfolio of grievances. As a result, he made a speech guaranteed to alienate even many people who are also against the war.

If Moore really wants to end the war — and not just boost the spirits of his Upper West Side neighbors — then mightn't he also want to win over people who oppose the war and yet don't believe that Bush is an illegimate president swept into office by skullduggery? Is he so insulated that he doesn't realize people like that exist? Or are people like that simply not simon-pure enough for him to want them in his antiwar movement?

That's the really annoying thing about Moore's speech. Moore often casts himself as a populist, and sometimes he's even convincing. He often makes a strong case against other progressives who out of touch with the hoi polloi — who can't lower themselves to listen to talk radio, can't identify a NASCAR driver or country singer, can't in any sense understand how the mass of America lives and thinks. This kind of liberal attitude, he has rightly argued, has kept the Left from building broad-based movements. But Moore's own clubby, we-all-know-Bush-is-a-liar attitude suggests that he's not interested in a broad-based antiwar movement.

I'm going to get a lot of e-mail from people who believe Bush stole the election in Florida, but before you press "send," at least consider this. A lot of smart people agree with you. But if someone disagrees with you, are they not worth allying with against the war? Would you rather have a war in Iraq than pass up a chance to bring up Florida again?

The remainder of the speech was no improvement. There was the general hectoring and finger-wagging — and I don't mean finger-wagging figuratively; the man literally thrust his finger at the camera. A man with Moore's sense of history has no excuse not to realize that makes him look like a crackpot dictator shouting a harangue from the balcony. And while his last line about Bush being in trouble because the Pope and the Dixie Chicks are against him was funny, it was funny because most people don't take the opinions of music groups seriously. Kind of like the opinions of Oscar winners.

There's been a lot of piling on against celebrities who speak out against the war. Frankly, I sympathize with the celebs. We spend our entire lives paying inordinate attention to the pronouncements of celebrities on everything from art to family to fashion. Suddenly we're offended because they also care about politics?

But there's a special reason to resent a political speech at the Oscars — and it's not just bias against Hollywood liberals. (Everyone considers Arnold Schwarzenegger a nitwit for holding forth politically too, and he's conservative.) Call it the Panhandler Syndrome. A speaker like Moore is like a beggar in a New York City subway car. Even people who give to charity and the homeless resent this kind of panhandling, because it takes advantage of a captive audience. It's not like you can just jump out onto the tracks if you don't want to be bothered.

Likewise, a proselytizing celeb like Moore is essentially hijacking our attention, saying that if you want to find out who won Best Director, you're damn well going to sit there and hear me out on world affairs. All the more reason for him to be, if not apolitical, reasonable and respectful of people who disagree with him, or agree with him only, say, 60%.

When I e-mailed an esteemed colleague my thoughts about Moore earlier today, he wrote back with a reasonable defense: Why should a progressive like Moore have to be all gentle and NPR-nuanced when there are so many Limbaughs and O'Reillys out there? The reason: More people in America identify as conservative than liberal, like it or not. So lefties who want to accomplish anything outside Santa Monica and Manhattan need moderate support even more than their righty analogues do.

That's assuming, of course, that Michael Moore actually wants to expand the antiwar movement. Maybe he simply wants to excite his amen corner — that is, people who might rush out and see, buy or rent his movies. That may be good enough for him. It will certainly be good enough for his career. It should not be good enough for anyone who wants to create an antiwar movement that could actually stop a war.

[Skillian]

Just wanted to say I was SO happy to see that award go to Bowling For Columbine - every thread that has mentioned it on this forum I have urged people to see it - the good thing about this is now maybe more people will.

And thanks to infested Cats for that video and article - both very interesting and I probably wouldn't have got to see them if you hadn't posted - thanks.

[DataMore]

His speech reminded me of those guys who go to the Howard Stern show and want all the attention to them, so they start shouting in order to get it. ;)

[kAb]

i loved the movie. i'll say that.

but it was utterly biased.

When it said "Osama bin laden uses his expert CIA training on september 11th" (or whatever), it was the stupidest thing it could have said. And the numbers of the other things that the U.S. did were much higher than what the REAL numbers were.

He can be funny and is a good director, but he is very anti-establishment, and it disgusts me.

[Skillian]

I think Michael Moore was justified in saying what he did at such an occasion. He has had to go to Canada to get funding for his films and when no US broadcasters were willing to show his TV program, he made it in the UK. He will very rarely get a chance to address an audience like the one on Sunday night (one that isn't used to views such as his), so I can't blame him for grabbing that opportunity.

You find it disgusting that he doesn't agree with the establishment?! Surely there is nothing wrong with that? That's the basis of free speech and democracy.

[imported_el-producto]

I've never liked that fat ass Michael Moore because of his know it all attitude that he always seems to have and his opinions...

He should of kept that shit to himself yesterday. "Shame on you blah blah BS..". What the fuck? This guy and that ugly hoe Janeane Garofalo really piss me off with their lame liberal views..right next to Jello Biafra. The war wont even affect their rich asses :lol:

[kAb]

Originally posted by Skillian@24 March 2003 - 19:01
You find it disgusting that he doesn't agree with the establishment?! Surely there is nothing wrong with that? That's the basis of free speech and democracy.
yes, i like to say, "in America, you have freedom of choice, you have the right to leave, so if you don't like it, get the fuck out!

go live in Canada :) (and i mean that in a good way)


edit: typos

[ClubDiggler]

"Infested Cats" above said it right.

Besides just one more point:

I was watching the Oscars to take my mind off the War for a
couple of hours and not have every over-opinionated asshole
make disstasteful remarks about it.

:geek: (Bono)

[Skillian]

The war wont even affect their rich asses 
But he still cares enough to talk about it. It is not a good thing to ignore it cos it won't affect you personally.


in America, you have freedom of choice, you have the right to leave, so if you don't like it, get the fuck out!

He has said many times he loves the country he lives in, just not the people running it. Freedom of choice is is not "if you don't like it, get out" - it's the ability to speak out against the things you don't like and maybe even change them. That's why you have elections, otherwise you'd have the same president and everyone who didn't like him would leave. That's a dictatorship.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Skillian@25 March 2003 - 05:36

The war wont even affect their rich asses
But he still cares enough to talk about it. It is not a good thing to ignore it cos it won't affect you personally.


in America, you have freedom of choice, you have the right to leave, so if you don't like it, get the fuck out!

He has said many times he loves the country he lives in, just not the people running it. Freedom of choice is is not "if you don't like it, get out" - it's the ability to speak out against the things you don't like and maybe even change them. That's why you have elections, otherwise you'd have the same president and everyone who didn't like him would leave. That's a dictatorship.
What about the people who said if Dubya got elected, they'd leave the country?
If his tax cut passes, they'd leave the country?
If we go to war, they'd leave the country?

Alex Baldwin, Madonna, Barbra Streisand, Robert Redford, et. al. are, and have been, free to leave the country for some time now, yet they prefer to remain here, free, and expect the hoi polloi to hang on their every word as gospel. I am still hanging on the "I'm gonna leave" statements they all made. How come they don't get called on this? They stay, and whine about how "they have rights, too".

Buncha fuckin' tube-steaks. Indefensible.

Michael Moore is a fat-fuck know-nothing, and THAT is the truth.

He IS entitled to his opinion; is he entitled to a microphone and a television audience?

I have rights, too.

[SuperJude™]

Micheal Moore makes entertaining movies, and his Roger & Me was really good at pointing out the facts about where he grew up.

Then he had his t.v. series that was pretty entertaining. He has the talent of interviewing people he wants to look bad and having them look bad.

Some of what he had to say in Bowling for columbine was great stuff, but the thing that really bugs me about him is the obviousness of his editing. When he left Charlton Hestons house at the end of the movie and made it a point to act all upset and then left the picture of that little girl I decided I really didn't like him all that much anymore.

It was one of those moments where his leading interviews, feigned sadness and snappy editing suddenly added up. Then again you don't ahve to like the artist to like the product. I thought Bowling for columbine did have a lot of pertinent thoughts in it, but then again it also missed widely on some points and I didn't think that made it a great movie at all, just a pretty good one.

His speech I missed and only read some parts of it.

Here is my thought on it- they are all sell outs, all of them.

-SJ™

[Spindulik]

Michael Moore? Is that the fat guy who had that speech at the awards? I saw it on the news. I refused to watch a bunch of actors who are pro-terrorists. I watched the news the entire time.

If you don't like it, leave the country (USA). It is time to support the soldiers. Too late to portest the war, it has already started. No matter who is president of the USA, it was bound to happen. The wimpy countries around Iraq are not in any capable condition to fight, liberate and free Iraq's people. They'd rather sit back, watch and complain. Or, they'd rather involve themselves in shakey money deals and trading with Sadam. Sadam represents TERROR. He supports terrorists, terrorists operations, weapons and other evil activities. Don't give me "the media lies" crap. I have digital cable (satellite), and a dozen media sources that I have watched aren't 100% wrong all of the time.

[puremindmatters]

No, certainly not 100%.
I just heard that parts of the 51st division of the Iraq army are defending Basra. So, if the media weren't lying that must be POW whom the coalition forces placed inside the town after they surrendered.

And finally the Iraqui expatriates are returning to Iraq to take up arms and join the struggle (the news (BBC world) said 5000). They are Saddam's enemies. Unfortunately, they don't share your opinion and are going to fight the American and British troops. I am just curious, what are the US media making out of this? We are just getting CNN Europe here, and they haven't mentioned that yet.

Apart from that I didn't like the way Michael Moore made his statement, but I think telling people who have a different opinion to leave the country isn't particularly democratic - is that the type of democracy you are trying to bring to the Iraqui people?

[tracydani]

Originally posted by kAb@25 March 2003 - 05:01

yes, i like to say, "in America, you have freedom of choice, you have the right to leave, so if you don't like it, get the fuck out!


I already have :D (although not because I don't like it)

But I am curious. Will you follow your own advice when things don't go the way you like?

I have heard plenty of people say similar things, but it seems that it only applies to the other guy :rolleyes:

[DiogenesUK]

I would defend Michael Moore's right to speak out on the situation,just as I defend the right of Bush,Blair & their cronies to give us their 'spin' on proceedings.
Whether or not I/we choose to believe a single word any of 'em utter is of course an entirely different matter.

Bodies in & around Umm Qasar were barely cold before the real reason for this conflict became apparent to all but the most stupid,or bigoted.

It was quietly announced that some yank company had ahem...won...the contract ($4.8 billion) for the 'administration' of the port,this war is about $$$'s needed to rescue Bush's complete balls-up of the U.S. economy..............anyone for a Big Mac ??? :angry:

[ketoprak]

I'm pleased to know that some Americans actually saw 'Bowling for Columbine'.

I thought it was specially shot for the European public :D

His acceptance declaration was the best thing that could be said about this war in 45 seconds.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by puremindmatters@25 March 2003 - 09:48
.Apart from that I didn't like the way Michael Moore made his statement, but I think telling people who have a different opinion to leave the country isn't particularly democratic - is that the type of democracy you are trying to bring to the Iraqui people?
But what about the people (the "celebrities") who threaten to leave (i.e., deprive US of their presence), and don't?
They were all sitting in the front row at the Oscars and constituted all the cheers that Michael Moore received.
I've had a bellyful of spoiled-brat celebrities who almost demand to be worshipped for their "gracious" offerings of sociopolitical expertise. Funny, but I never hear them refer to the days when they had to scrape to eat; by the time they've "earned" all the attention they get, they're richer than Croesus and dumber than..........well.......Zardoz.

THAT'S IT!!

ZARDOZ IS A FAILED CELEBRITY LIVING IN EXILE!

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by ketoprak@25 March 2003 - 13:13
I'm pleased to know that some Americans actually saw 'Bowling for Columbine'.

I thought it was specially shot for the European public :D

His acceptance declaration was the best thing that could be said about this war in 45 seconds.



@Ketoprak don't waste your breath.

There is no arguing with racists.

If these bigots could think for themselves they wouldn't support their own words
and the fact they keep insulting me ( even though I haven't responded to them for days) shows their inability to comprehend the simplest ideas and also suggests to me that every word I have written about them is accurate.

They’re typical of the worst in America, against any idea that is perceived to be anti America (However incorrectly that perception may be), Anyone against an opinion held by any American results in a torrent of unintelligible abuse that proves the bigotry held by these people however well hidden with the odd 3 syllable word

[insanebassman]

I do not take the opinion of the pope seriously at all, I would rather listen to the nausiating twang of the dixie chix..

how dare an organization responsible for so much death in the middle east and around the world try to look down thier nose at anyone.

The fucking pope has no legitamacy in world affairs other than the fact that he has crawled his way to the top of a political group like any other dirty politician.

As for Michael Moore's speach, take it the same way you would any other sheltered bitch. (Like Bush) He is ranting about having things his own way...(like Bush) Why can't we all just stop trying to get along and get the apocalypse (sp?) over with?!?!

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by insanebassman@25 March 2003 - 16:08
I do not take the opinion of the pope seriously at all, I would rather listen to the nausiating twang of the dixie chix..

how dare an organization responsible for so much death in the middle east and around the world try to look down thier nose at anyone.

The fucking pope has no legitamacy in world affairs other than the fact that he has crawled his way to the top of a political group like any other dirty politician.

As for Michael Moore's speach, take it the same way you would any other sheltered bitch. (Like Bush) He is ranting about having things his own way...(like Bush) Why can't we all just stop trying to get along and get the apocalypse (sp?) over with?!?!

I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them.
They completely failed to defend the Jews in WW2 because of what Hitler and musalini might have done when Italy got invaded

The Vatican is the home of Hypocritical Cowards; To clear up a few misconceptions about myself, I think most of the people in Americana (however I may dissagree with some.) are dedicated and brave. I cannot say the same for catholics.

Please do not attack me on the catholic issue you wont like what comes out.

I dont agree with your opinion an Michael Moore but I don't know any more of him other than he is a director of controversial films etc. and I don't completely understand the comment "sheltered bitch" I assume it's an American Colloquialism.

you also totally have a point with Bush.

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 17:14
I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them...
Hey, I am Catholic! And have to agree with you. As a matter of fact I think the religion is out dated. Priests should be allowed to marry. Women should be priests too. Gays should be accepted. etc....

Why hasn't there been a real miracle in the last century or two. You know what I mean. Has mankind wised up with all of the technology? Why weren't the American Indians mentioned in the bible? Why hasn't God made at least one real visitation with all of this nuclear technology? Why hasn't the bible been continue, like "The Bible, Book Two"? God must sit back and watch life, like a non-stop television show. Toying with us, like a video game. What gives? If God always was and always will be, then he must have known (3 million years in advance) that the World Trade center was going to be terroristically attacked and destroyed! Therefore, all he has to do, is look up his virtual "TV schedule" and make plans on watching it all happen.

If you aren't baptized Catholic, you can't get into heaven.

I am sure there are a lot of religious nuts out there who will flame me for this, but no matter what they say, I can "say too".

What about that Muslim religion? Why do a lot of prisoners convert to Muslim? Why is Muslim sometimes associated with terrorism? Can you still go to heaven and not be Muslim?

It is going to take a LOT for me to believe in an invisible guy. Then when I do, I have to prove to you that my invisile guy is real and your's is not.


I need to watch Penn & Teller's BS series on Shotime more often.

[BROCKSTER]

i dont believe in god :D

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by Spindulik+25 March 2003 - 16:36--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 25 March 2003 - 16:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 17:14
I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them...
Hey, I am Catholic&#33; And have to agree with you. As a matter of fact I think the religion is out dated. Priests should be allowed to marry. Women should be priests too. Gays should be accepted. etc....

Why hasn&#39;t there been a real miracle in the last century or two. You know what I mean. Has mankind wised up with all of the technology? Why weren&#39;t the American Indians mentioned in the bible? Why hasn&#39;t God made at least one real visitation with all of this nuclear technology? Why hasn&#39;t the bible been continue, like "The Bible, Book Two"? God must sit back and watch life, like a non-stop television show. Toying with us, like a video game. What gives? If God always was and always will be, then he must have known (3 million years in advance) that the World Trade center was going to be terroristically attacked and destroyed&#33; Therefore, all he has to do, is look up his virtual "TV schedule" and make plans on watching it all happen.

If you aren&#39;t baptized Catholic, you can&#39;t get into heaven.

I am sure there are a lot of religious nuts out there who will flame me for this, but no matter what they say, I can "say too".

What about that Muslim religion? Why do a lot of prisoners convert to Muslim? Why is Muslim sometimes associated with terrorism? Can you still go to heaven and not be Muslim?

It is going to take a LOT for me to believe in an invisible guy. Then when I do, I have to prove to you that my invisile guy is real and your&#39;s is not.


I need to watch Penn & Teller&#39;s BS series on Shotime more often. [/b][/quote]

.
I think as a total outsider that real Catholicism and your "god" has little to do with the bible.
There is a lot of corruption and cover up&#39;s committed by people who may love god but more important that god is their personal power. Anything big enough will attract power mad fools
The pope is like any leaders of powerful organisation especially countries where Prime Minister, president, pope have to be elected
I don&#39;t know who wrote this "Anyone capable of getting elected should never be allowed to do the job"

I am not religious myself but like I said thing all get mixed up together.
Certain people like this to be so, for political reasons and IMO this is also the case for Muslims they have been mixed with Terrorism because of politics, also certain Muslims commit a lot of terrorism, I cannot comment why except a lot of Muslims are persecuted mostly by the Muslim extremist’s not fundamentalist as is the common misconception.
A fundamentalist if anyone doesn&#39;t know is a true believer in the fundamentals of their religion and very devout.
Therefore the idea of violence for any reason is abhorrent to them.


Also Jesus is mentioned in the Koran more than Allah
We all know that politics is rarely honest and it&#39;s just a pity religion can&#39;t be a little less corrupt

It&#39;s rarely the believer that can&#39;t be trusted and mostly the religion.

You would be in a tricky position even if you had to try and convince a fellow Christian let anone A Buddhist who believs in reincarnation.

I hope I haven&#39;t offended people on the other hand I expect some to react all the same.

[ketoprak]

I&#39;ve prayed once. I was in the middle of religious conflict : thousands of christians killed by muslims, thousands of muslims killed by christians. I&#39;ve asked God (or Allah, it&#39;s supposed to be the same guy) to stop people fighting in His name. Apperently it didn&#39;t work. I didn&#39;t try to believe in God again after that, and got into politics & human rights activism. Much more efficient :D

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by ketoprak@25 March 2003 - 17:24
I&#39;ve prayed once. I was in the middle of religious conflict : thousands of christians killed by muslims, thousands of muslims killed by christians. I&#39;ve asked God (or Allah, it&#39;s supposed to be the same guy) to stop people fighting in His name. Apperently it didn&#39;t work. I didn&#39;t try to believe in God again after that, and got into politics & human rights activism. Much more efficient :D



Well they have traced almost certainly what place Jesus was born in (fact not Bible).
He would have been tall, lean, with black hair, Exactly how Allah is portrayed and couldn’t have looked Swedish for a second

Basically he looked Arabic, the home of the Muslim religion.

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 18:31
He would have been tall, lean, with black hair, Exactly how Allah is portrayed and couldn’t have looked Swedish for a second

Basically he looked Arabic, the home of the Muslim religion.
Forgive my ignorance: Who has traced what? As far as I know, Jesus was supposedly a Jew, so presumably he would have looked Jewish.
Is there any mention in the bible that he was Swedish? Is that any particular edition of the bible I&#39;m not aware of? Or has the Vatican claimed that Jesus was Swedish?

Please enlighten me on these groundbreaking news I haven&#39;t heard about.

edit: furthermore, there are portraits of Allah?

[mrcall1969]

Originally posted by Zardoz+25 March 2003 - 17:14--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 25 March 2003 - 17:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--insanebassman@25 March 2003 - 16:08
I do not take the opinion of the pope seriously at all, I would rather listen to the nausiating twang of the dixie chix..

how dare an organization responsible for so much death in the middle east and around the world try to look down thier nose at anyone.

The fucking pope has no legitamacy in world affairs other than the fact that he has crawled his way to the top of a political group like any other dirty politician.

As for Michael Moore&#39;s speach, take it the same way you would any other sheltered bitch. (Like Bush) He is ranting about having things his own way...(like Bush) Why can&#39;t we all just stop trying to get along and get the apocalypse (sp?) over with?&#33;?&#33;

I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them.
They completely failed to defend the Jews in WW2 because of what Hitler and musalini might have done when Italy got invaded

The Vatican is the home of Hypocritical Cowards; To clear up a few misconceptions about myself, I think most of the people in Americana (however I may dissagree with some.) are dedicated and brave. I cannot say the same for catholics.

Please do not attack me on the catholic issue you wont like what comes out.

I dont agree with your opinion an Michael Moore but I don&#39;t know any more of him other than he is a director of controversial films etc. and I don&#39;t completely understand the comment "sheltered bitch" I assume it&#39;s an American Colloquialism.

you also totally have a point with Bush. [/b][/quote]
Zardoz, take a deep breath, sit back and read what you have written in your threads. All I can see in them is bitterness, racism and bigotry, and please don&#39;t respond with "but the other side are worse tham me" arguement.

I was born and brought up a Roman Catholic and still attend mass on a Sunday, where I live I have been verbally and physically abused by people who do not like the religion that I have been brought up within, I have also been discriminated against when seeking employment in the past. Inspite of this I do not mock people of other religions or nationalities, but have learned that real bravery and humility comes with turning the other cheek and letting people live their own way.

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by j2k4@25 March 2003 - 15:13
But what about the people (the "celebrities") who threaten to leave (i.e., deprive US of their presence), and don&#39;t?
They were all sitting in the front row at the Oscars and constituted all the cheers that Michael Moore recieved.
I&#39;ve had a bellyful of spoiled-brat celebrities who almost demand to be worshipped for their "gracious" offerings of sociopolitical expertise. Funny, but I never hear them refer to the days when they had to scrape to eat; by the time they&#39;ve "earned" all the attention they get, they&#39;re richer than Croesus and dumber than..........well.......Zardoz.

THAT&#39;S IT&#33;&#33;

ZARDOZ IS A FAILED CELEBRITY LIVING IN EXILE&#33;
Well, I do prefer them making statements and having the right to make statements - otherwise one might gain the impression that they are actually identifying with roles they are playing. And if you see some of the heroic rubbish that comes out of more or less all dream factories of this world, I think it is vital that the people responsible for that remind us that this is an illusion, made for entertainment.

I don&#39;t think in a true democratic society the statement of a celebrity has any more meaning than that of the next guy. It has exactly the importance you assign to it. That some might feel differently because they have air time is their problem. I personally would never be interested in the social, economical or intellectual background of someone making a statement, but would be interested in their opinions - and if I find them contestable, I contest them. I&#39;m not easily impressed, and making a lot of money never impressed me - if they are good actors, fine, I like good performances. That shows talent and aptitude in their line of work, but nothing else. If people are paying exorbitant amounts of money for that, good for them. That doesn&#39;t make the actors "more valuable" people.

I don&#39;t know about your country, but we have quite a lot of talk shows with interesting people, some celebrities, others from politics, military, intellectuals, you name it. It&#39;s usually on those occasions that you learn how to assess the expertise and in-depth knowledge of the ones present - believe me, you hear stupidity and ignorance from all of those groups, but so far I haven&#39;t determined a pattern that a particular profession has that as a prerequisite. That&#39;s why I didn&#39;t like the way Michael Moore made his statement - I like his documentaries, and I would have preferred if he had used that for a statement instead of ranting like an idiot - for I am pretty sure he isn&#39;t one.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by puremindmatters+25 March 2003 - 17:54--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (puremindmatters @ 25 March 2003 - 17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 18:31




He would have been tall, lean, with black hair, Exactly how Allah is portrayed and couldn’t have looked Swedish for a second

Basically he looked Arabic, the home of the Muslim religion.
Forgive my ignorance: Who has traced what? As far as I know, Jesus was supposedly a Jew, so presumably he would have looked Jewish.
Is there any mention in the bible that he was Swedish? Is that any particular edition of the bible I&#39;m not aware of? Or has the Vatican claimed that Jesus was Swedish?

Please enlighten me on these groundbreaking news I haven&#39;t heard about.

edit: furthermore, there are portraits of Allah? [/b][/quote]


groundbreaking to you maybe. I first heard of it about 10 years ago.
And how exactly did Jews look 2000 years ago? they had the appearence of arabis but a little darker by modern standards
and now jesus is portrais tall blonde and white i.e. Sweedish oir scandinavian.

Why do you assume nothing changes
Italians were black but througn breeding with whites arenow pail
where do you think the dark hair comes from

so to all modern evidence Jesus, Moses. the deciples and Even Jesus&#39;s god the Christian god was BLACK by all madern standards
Blame it all on Michelangelo he used his slim blonde brother to pose for a jesus portrait and it stuck.
I know quite a few people will have a fit about this but only because the&#39;re racist.

Read THIS (http://www.voy.com/62752/1886.html) and be enlightened

[SuperJude™]

Zardoz is nothing but a troller.

He is that kid who says stupid shit in class in hopes that somebody will notice him.

I gave him the full option of taking me on directly but he/she would rather sit back and makes general statements which look pretty much like trolling.

Be glad I&#39;m not a mod is all I can say cause people like that get banned with the quickness.

I wonder though if he gets as many PM&#39;s as I got even though I was saying much less moronic things?

-SJ™

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by mrcall1969+25 March 2003 - 18:00--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mrcall1969 @ 25 March 2003 - 18:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 17:14
<!--QuoteBegin--insanebassman@25 March 2003 - 16:08
I do not take the opinion of the pope seriously at all, I would rather listen to the nausiating twang of the dixie chix..

how dare an organization responsible for so much death in the middle east and around the world try to look down thier nose at anyone.

The fucking pope has no legitamacy in world affairs other than the fact that he has crawled his way to the top of a political group like any other dirty politician.

As for Michael Moore&#39;s speach, take it the same way you would any other sheltered bitch. (Like Bush) He is ranting about having things his own way...(like Bush) Why can&#39;t we all just stop trying to get along and get the apocalypse (sp?) over with?&#33;?&#33;

I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them.
They completely failed to defend the Jews in WW2 because of what Hitler and musalini might have done when Italy got invaded

The Vatican is the home of Hypocritical Cowards; To clear up a few misconceptions about myself, I think most of the people in Americana (however I may dissagree with some.) are dedicated and brave. I cannot say the same for catholics.

Please do not attack me on the catholic issue you wont like what comes out.

I dont agree with your opinion an Michael Moore but I don&#39;t know any more of him other than he is a director of controversial films etc. and I don&#39;t completely understand the comment "sheltered bitch" I assume it&#39;s an American Colloquialism.

you also totally have a point with Bush.
Zardoz, take a deep breath, sit back and read what you have written in your threads. All I can see in them is bitterness, racism and bigotry, and please don&#39;t respond with "but the other side are worse tham me" arguement.

I was born and brought up a Roman Catholic and still attend mass on a Sunday, where I live I have been verbally and physically abused by people who do not like the religion that I have been brought up within, I have also been discriminated against when seeking employment in the past. Inspite of this I do not mock people of other religions or nationalities, but have learned that real bravery and humility comes with turning the other cheek and letting people live their own way. [/b][/quote]


Open your eyes
And before you prove what I said by totally misquoting me and therefore proving the
intolerance of your church.

Lets look at the way your church promotes the induction of paedophiles and serves young children up to them by making it almost impossible for a prosecution to be successful and in most cases by covering it up and helping the perpetrators evade justice.

Now tell me how proud you are of your church once more.

[SuperJude™]

Is this all something you just learned in school this year?

1st off most Americans are Protestant, though since you hate Americans and think them all racist it doesn;t matter.

You know what race I hate?

Whatever breed spawned you, though by this point I am reasonably certain that it was something sub-human and not an actuall Homo-Sapien.

-SJ™

[Skillian]

Err..isn&#39;t this post supposed to be about Michael Moore?

[j2k4]

Originally posted by SuperJude™@25 March 2003 - 19:43
Zardoz is nothing but a troller.

He is that kid who says stupid shit in class in hopes that somebody will notice him.

I gave him the full option of taking me on directly but he/she would rather sit back and makes general statements which look pretty much like trolling.

Be glad I&#39;m not a mod is all I can say cause people like that get banned with the quickness.

I wonder though if he gets as many PM&#39;s as I got even though I was saying much less moronic things?

-SJ™
YUP&#33;
SJ-
He is at the moment ignoring you-me, too.
You can kick him from one end of this forum to the other but his survival instincts are the only ones that serve him in the end.
I recommend you ignore him; I&#39;ll do the same. You watch, he&#39;ll be back begging for attention before you know it, then we can recommence using him as the ragged shuttlecock he is.

Zardoz Rule #1: You can&#39;t tell him you&#39;re smarter, you have to demonstrate it, while showing no recognition whatsoever.

Try it, it&#39;s fun.

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 19:32
groundbreaking to you maybe. I first heard of it about 10 years ago.
And how exactly did Jews look 2000 years ago? they had the appearence of arabis but a little darker by modern standards
and now jesus is portrais tall blonde and white i.e. Sweedish oir scandinavian.

Why do you assume nothing changes
Italians were black but througn breeding with whites arenow pail
where do you think the dark hair comes from

so to all modern evidence Jesus, Moses. the deciples and Even Jesus&#39;s god the Christian god was BLACK by all madern standards
Blame it all on Michelangelo he used his slim blonde brother to pose for a jesus portrait and it stuck.
I know quite a few people will have a fit about this but only because the&#39;re racist.

Read THIS (http://www.voy.com/62752/1886.html) and be enlightened
I haven&#39;t heard of any church claiming that their depiction of any religious figure of the past was accurate. You shouldn&#39;t make statements if you don&#39;t know what you are talking about. Every religious artist depicts their holy figures in a way that they can relate to it. Buddha looks different in India than he looks in Japan. I find it amusing that you think that this as any import on a religion whatsoever. Not even in Hollywood movies I&#39;ve seen a Swedish Jesus.

I have been to Israel and I wouldn&#39;t be able to tell Jewish people apart from other Arabic people living in that region just from their complexion. If they live in the same area, they are bound to get about the same amount of sunshine. If they looked different 2000 years ago, fine - what the heck does that have to do with Christianity?

I&#39;m still waiting for a picture of Allah?

[SuperJude™]

Originally posted by Skillian@25 March 2003 - 19:54
Err..isn&#39;t this post supposed to be about Michael Moore?
It was. Maybe somebody else will notice what I am talking about here? I mean being stupid on the internet is hardly original of course, but seems like this person just ruins threads for no good reason other than being jealous of Americans.

Being covetous is never a good thing.

-SJ™

[Zardoz]

To refresh memories I repeat my post on the flame war from monday here.
the few at whom this is aimed know who they are.

"LOOKS LIKE I HAVE VICTORY.

I have reduced the bigots to nothing less than a tirade of abuse with no intelligent comment.
I cannot think of a better definition of success.

All these threads are one abusive comment after another
I&#39;m getting very bored with this.

I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS."

[SuperJude™]

No no, you don&#39;t think we are biggots. YOu are jealous and covetous of what we have and you don&#39;t.

But you can&#39;t come right out and say that can you? So instead of saying "I am a jealous and covetous little sub-person" she comes out and says we are biggots.

twisted logic there but whatever gets you through the day and able to cope with yourself.

I wonder something about Zardoz, is she on meds of any sort?

-SJ™

[mrcall1969]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 20:17
To refresh memories I repeat my post on the flame war from monday here.
the few at whom this is aimed know who they are.

"LOOKS LIKE I HAVE VICTORY.

I have reduced the bigots to nothing less than a tirade of abuse with no intelligent comment.
I cannot think of a better definition of success.

All these threads are one abusive comment after another
I&#39;m getting very bored with this.

I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS."
Zardoz, the only person I see being bigoted is you&#33;

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 20:17
I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS."
You&#39;d better find someone intelligent first who explains to you what has been written so far, including your own haphazard melange of words.

I would recommend some reading up on "racism", "bigot", "religion", "society", "victory".... hm, the list would probably get too long.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by puremindmatters+25 March 2003 - 19:10--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (puremindmatters @ 25 March 2003 - 19:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 19:32
groundbreaking to you maybe. I first heard of it about 10 years ago.
And how exactly did Jews look 2000 years ago?&nbsp; they had the appearence of arabis but a little darker by modern standards
and now jesus is portrais tall blonde and white&nbsp; i.e. Sweedish oir scandinavian.

Why do you assume nothing changes
Italians were black but througn breeding with whites arenow pail
where do you think the dark hair comes from

so to all modern evidence Jesus, Moses. the deciples and Even Jesus&#39;s god the Christian god was BLACK by all madern standards
Blame it all on Michelangelo he used his slim blonde brother to pose for a jesus portrait and it stuck.
I know quite a few people will have a fit about this but only because the&#39;re racist.

Read THIS (http://www.voy.com/62752/1886.html) and be enlightened
I haven&#39;t heard of any church claiming that their depiction of any religious figure of the past was accurate. You shouldn&#39;t make statements if you don&#39;t know what you are talking about. Every religious artist depicts their holy figures in a way that they can relate to it. Buddha looks different in India than he looks in Japan. I find it amusing that you think that this as any import on a religion whatsoever. Not even in Hollywood movies I&#39;ve seen a Swedish Jesus.

I have been to Israel and I wouldn&#39;t be able to tell Jewish people apart from other Arabic people living in that region just from their complexion. If they live in the same area, they are bound to get about the same amount of sunshine. If they looked different 2000 years ago, fine - what the heck does that have to do with Christianity?

I&#39;m still waiting for a picture of Allah? [/b][/quote]




I use Swedish as a metaphor to give people the picture of a tall blonde white man.

And if you read the link then you will realise that it is extremely important to Christianity as the idea of a white god leads strongly to the white supremacists and their view of whites being superior to other races.
The whole KKK&#39;s reasoning is that white is good all else is inferior.

If you believe that the KKK isn’t racism disguised as Christianity then I suggest you read more about the subject.
Jews are not black, to all available evidence Jesus could not have been anything else.

I recommend you read the entirety of a post before attempting criticism

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by puremindmatters+25 March 2003 - 19:46--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (puremindmatters @ 25 March 2003 - 19:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 20:17
I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER UNLESS YOU CAN FIND SOMEBODY WHO WILL WRITE SOMETHING INTELLIGENT FOR YOU.
DON&#39;T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOLKS."
You&#39;d better find someone intelligent first who explains to you what has been written so far, including your own haphazard melange of words.

I would recommend some reading up on "racism", "bigot", "religion", "society", "victory".... hm, the list would probably get too long. [/b][/quote]



the few has expanded

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 20:47
If you believe that the KKK isn’t racism disguised as Christianity then I suggest you read more about the subject.
Jews are not black, to all available evidence Jesus could not have been anything else.

I recommend you read the entirety of a post before attempting criticism
KKK isn&#39;t disguised - it is overt racism, and has nothing to do with Christianity.

I haven&#39;t heard of any church supporting the KKK.

[Skillian]

Zardoz, give it a rest mate. Who mentioned the KKK? This was a topic about Michael Moore until you introduced racism (?) in you first post and religion in your second. It&#39;s too late now I guess, the thread has been ruined, but try to see through some of the insults you are getting and realise that they actually have a point.

Although it is quite ironic that before you came along people were talking about Michael Moore using an innapropriate time and place to get his views across, don&#39;t you think?

[SuperJude™]

I wonder if I should point out to her that the african influence talked about is not Sub-Saharan (i.e. black) African but Northern African?

Now we have racist americans, the KKK and Jesus was not a jew all in one thread?

I&#39;ll give Zardoz this, she really must put thought into sounding so uneducated.

-SJ™

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by SuperJude™@25 March 2003 - 21:03
Now we have racist americans, the KKK and Jesus was not a jew all in one thread?

You are right - this is quite an achievement.
Maybe we all missed the twist - and learn that all people who didn&#39;t like Michael Moore&#39;s speech are KKK members who support the war because the hidden agenda behind it is to obscure that Jesus was black.
I rest my case in awe.

[soopaman]

Originally posted by Skillian@25 March 2003 - 20:56
Zardoz, give it a rest mate. Who mentioned the KKK? This was a topic about Michael Moore until you introduced racism (?) in you first post and religion in your second. It&#39;s too late now I guess, the thread has been ruined, but try to see through some of the insults you are getting and realise that they actually have a point.

Although it is quite ironic that before you came along people were talking about Michael Moore using an innapropriate time and place to get his views across, don&#39;t you think?

Well said Skillian.Zardoz - Just leave it for another thread. This was supposed to be about Michael Moore and his Oscar speech. It was not about you trying to bait people with different beliefs than your own. I was trying to read through your previous posts to try and get an insight into your thinking, but I couldn&#39;t find any coherent arguments or lines of thinking. Why don&#39;t you tell us why you feel so "Anti-Everything"?? Is it an age thing? A little teenage angst? I&#39;m sure the rest of the forum would like to hear your reasons. BUT in a different thread&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; And try finding a fucking dictionary whilst you&#39;re about it.

Thanks for your time. :lol:

[Lamsey]

wow... http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stacymouse/flamehide.gif

[ClubDiggler]

I think this post has way too much controversy. B)

[alan36uk]

The lounge is for any topic but ohhh my its turning into a war zone.
Threads get lost and all hell breaks loose.

[ketoprak]

Back to topic :

Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I&#39;m glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn&#39;t sure if I could take much more. So I&#39;m glad to hear that today is Truth Day, &#39;cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON&#39;T FIND THEM&#33; Why? &#39;Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us&#33; No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don&#39;t want to kill him&#33; Funny how that works&#33;

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here&#39;s what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope&#33; But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you&#33; How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won&#39;t have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces&#33; If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let&#39;s see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What&#39;s that you say? You don&#39;t THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don&#39;t think so either&#33;

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn&#39;t even have this country known as America if it weren&#39;t for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can&#39;t get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I&#39;m guessing there aren&#39;t a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn&#39;t like to see a good ass-whoopin&#39; every now and then (especially when it &#39;s some third world ass&#33;). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year&#39;s election. Of course, that&#39;s still a long ways away, so we&#39;ll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet&#33;

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you&#39;ll find Osama a few days before the election&#33; See, start thinking like THAT&#33; Keep hope alive&#33; Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil&#33;&#33;

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com)

[SuperJude™]

ketoprak you are a fucking jerkoff.

You people happy? I used foul language. Enjoy&#33;

But a lot of you people are fucking jerk offs and I am sick of reading your feeble minded bullshit.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

-SJ™

[ketoprak]

Originally posted by SuperJude™@26 March 2003 - 12:59
ketoprak you are a fucking jerkoff.

You people happy? I used foul language. Enjoy&#33;

But a lot of you people are fucking jerk offs and I am sick of reading your feeble minded bullshit.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

-SJ™
Thanks SJ, that was so deep and accurate.

People who decided this must have the same diplomatic line of argument as you do.

Makes me understand why we have this war.

:nuke:

[mrcall1969]

Originally posted by Zardoz+25 March 2003 - 19:46--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Zardoz @ 25 March 2003 - 19:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -mrcall1969@25 March 2003 - 18:00

Originally posted by -Zardoz@25 March 2003 - 17:14
<!--QuoteBegin--insanebassman@25 March 2003 - 16:08
I do not take the opinion of the pope seriously at all, I would rather listen to the nausiating twang of the dixie chix..

how dare an organization responsible for so much death in the middle east and around the world try to look down thier nose at anyone.

The fucking pope has no legitamacy in world affairs other than the fact that he has crawled his way to the top of a political group like any other dirty politician.

As for Michael Moore&#39;s speach, take it the same way you would any other sheltered bitch. (Like Bush) He is ranting about having things his own way...(like Bush) Why can&#39;t we all just stop trying to get along and get the apocalypse (sp?) over with?&#33;?&#33;

I agree the Catholics only stand on their pompous pedestal when it suits them.
They completely failed to defend the Jews in WW2 because of what Hitler and musalini might have done when Italy got invaded

The Vatican is the home of Hypocritical Cowards; To clear up a few misconceptions about myself, I think most of the people in Americana (however I may dissagree with some.) are dedicated and brave. I cannot say the same for catholics.

Please do not attack me on the catholic issue you wont like what comes out.

I dont agree with your opinion an Michael Moore but I don&#39;t know any more of him other than he is a director of controversial films etc. and I don&#39;t completely understand the comment "sheltered bitch" I assume it&#39;s an American Colloquialism.

you also totally have a point with Bush.
Zardoz, take a deep breath, sit back and read what you have written in your threads. All I can see in them is bitterness, racism and bigotry, and please don&#39;t respond with "but the other side are worse tham me" arguement.

I was born and brought up a Roman Catholic and still attend mass on a Sunday, where I live I have been verbally and physically abused by people who do not like the religion that I have been brought up within, I have also been discriminated against when seeking employment in the past. Inspite of this I do not mock people of other religions or nationalities, but have learned that real bravery and humility comes with turning the other cheek and letting people live their own way.


Open your eyes
And before you prove what I said by totally misquoting me and therefore proving the
intolerance of your church.

Lets look at the way your church promotes the induction of paedophiles and serves young children up to them by making it almost impossible for a prosecution to be successful and in most cases by covering it up and helping the perpetrators evade justice.

Now tell me how proud you are of your church once more. [/b][/quote]
Firstly, I am very proud of my faith Zardoz, through my church and my religion I have met people with more humility, compassion and common sense in their little finger than you have in your whole body.

On the paedophile subject, sure, I can&#39;t deny that it is wrong and that it sickens me, but what you are referring to is a minority, the same minority of Muslims that like to cause terror, the same minority of Americans who support the KKK and the same minority of people on this board that like to turn a genuine debate into a pit of hatred because they will not at least even try to see another persons point of view.

Zardoz, I was going to ask you exactly what knowledge you have of what goes on in the Catholic church, but I really do not have the slightest intention of debating with a bigot, rascist and angry person such as yourself.

I really hope that your posts are a wind up and that you&#39;re sitting in front of your monitor laughing at us, if not, then I really do pity you.

[SuperJude™]

Originally posted by ketoprak+26 March 2003 - 13:08--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ketoprak @ 26 March 2003 - 13:08)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--SuperJude™@26 March 2003 - 12:59
ketoprak you are a fucking jerkoff.

You people happy? I used foul language. Enjoy&#33;

But a lot of you people are fucking jerk offs and I am sick of reading your feeble minded bullshit.

:angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:&nbsp; :angry:

-SJ™
Thanks SJ, that was so deep and accurate.

People who decided this must have the same diplomatic line of argument as you do.

Makes me understand why we have this war.

:nuke: [/b][/quote]
BINGO&#33;


So some harsh words in text explain an entire war for you?

That is just pathetic.

Though of course I do think you have nothing to add to this board of course.

But still.

That was a sad reply, really.

-SJ™

[Infested Cats]

I have a few more comments (consider these my opinions):

1.) Most countries/people in the world agree that Iraq is not an immediate threat to its surrounding territories or the U.S. AND The UN wouldn&#39;t back the Bush Admin up because neither he nor the UN inspectors had any proof that Iraq was any threat. Also, there has been no proof that Hussein directly supports Al Queda in any way.

2.) Not to say Hussein isn&#39;t a sadistic little fuckhead and deserves whatever he gets... Just that his people (oppressed, hungry, propagandized into ignorance) and our soldiers don&#39;t really deserve being cannon fodder just for Oil (or fodder in a big fun game of cowboys and Indians for Bush).

3.) This is a supposed democracy (if you don&#39;t count the last election) and therefore we really can change our current situation (No Conservative Idiots in `04&#33;) but unfortunately we have to stick around to do so - It&#39;s not a love it or leave it situation...

4.) I really do like the ideals this country was founded on (money, land, hemp, rebelling against the establishment i.e. England - Yah baby) and the "American Dream", however at this point (especially under the Bush admin) I see most of the Dream/Constitution being pissed on under the guise of preserving our freedoms and democracy. I see a country divided, watered down freedom (Thank you Patriot Act), less prosperity and way too much bloodshed.

And regarding religion, i have to Quote George Carlin on this one:


Bullshit From The Sky
But Folks, I have to tell you, in the bullshit department a businessman can’t hold a candle to clergyman. Because when It comes to bullshit. Big-time, major-league bullshit. You have to stand in awe—in awe&#33;—of the all time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest.

Religion—easily—has the Greatest Bullshit Story Ever Told&#33; Think about it: religion has actually convinced people—many of them adults—that there’s an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And who has a special list of then things he does not want you to do.

And if you do any of these things, he has a special place, full of and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to remain and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry, forever and ever, till the end of time. But he loves you&#33;

He loves you, and he needs money&#33; He always needs money. He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, but somehow… he just can’t handle money. Religion takes in billions of dollars, pays no taxes, and somehow always needs a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy shit&#33;
...One of the many reasons i choose to be agnostic (notice not atheist).

[ketoprak]

Originally posted by SuperJude™+26 March 2003 - 13:18--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SuperJude™ @ 26 March 2003 - 13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -ketoprak@26 March 2003 - 13:08
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperJude™@26 March 2003 - 12:59
ketoprak you are a fucking jerkoff.

You people happy? I used foul language. Enjoy&#33;

But a lot of you people are fucking jerk offs and I am sick of reading your feeble minded bullshit.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

-SJ™
Thanks SJ, that was so deep and accurate.

People who decided this must have the same diplomatic line of argument as you do.

Makes me understand why we have this war.

:nuke:
BINGO&#33;


So some harsh words in text explain an entire war for you?

That is just pathetic.

Though of course I do think you have nothing to add to this board of course.

But still.

That was a sad reply, really.

-SJ™ [/b][/quote]
:ninja: :ninja: My mother always told me not to answer to provocations :ninja: :ninja:

I will indeed refrain from :flame: ing you.

[SuperJude™]

So then mamas boy, why did you reply huh?

Shows a distinct lack of character and conviction doesn&#39;t it?

Hmmmmm........




-SJ™

[j2k4]

Originally posted by ketoprak@26 March 2003 - 10:14
Back to topic :

Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I&#39;m glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn&#39;t sure if I could take much more. So I&#39;m glad to hear that today is Truth Day, &#39;cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:


Michael Moore possesses the truth: He IS the oracle.


1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON&#39;T FIND THEM&#33; Why? &#39;Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us&#33; No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don&#39;t want to kill him&#33; Funny how that works&#33;


There is "virtually no one" INCLUDING those on Fox News and talk radio, who is "gung ho" for war. The fact a MAJORITY of Americans SUPPORT the war does not impress Mr. Moore. His supposition proves nothing other than that he knows where the anti-war crowd hangs out.


2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here&#39;s what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.


This is sOOOOOOO tired. Even the liberal press (WHO, IN 2000, COMPLETED THE COUNT SO AS TO BE ABLE TO PUBLISH THE "FACTS", CONCLUDED BUSH DID INDEED WIN, EVEN INCREASING HIS FINAL WINNING MARGIN) admitted (albeit on page 20, in most cases) Bush won, and any legal challenge mounted by Gore would have failed.


3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.


Bill Maher-another oracle, even more clever than Mr. Moore-who proclaims himself a "libertarian", then leaves his ass hanging out for any reasoned debate. If he didn&#39;t control the microphone and the agenda, his points would blunt themselves.
Mr. Moore does not "live" in the "world" and has no claim to speak for anyone. He reminds me of a "white" Jesse Jackson in this regard.


4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope&#33; But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you&#33; How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won&#39;t have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.


The Pope should deal with (as Mr. Moore says) the issues which beg his attention: PEDARIST PREISTS. When would the Pope EVER speak in favor of a war? I predict Mr. Moore will soon be blasting Papal interest in some other "Moore" cause.


5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces&#33; If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let&#39;s see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What&#39;s that you say? You don&#39;t THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don&#39;t think so either&#33;


Mr Moore finally makes a marginal point.


6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn&#39;t even have this country known as America if it weren&#39;t for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can&#39;t get out of.


Yes, we DO love the French-just not right now.


Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I&#39;m guessing there aren&#39;t a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn&#39;t like to see a good ass-whoopin&#39; every now and then (especially when it &#39;s some third world ass&#33;). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year&#39;s election. Of course, that&#39;s still a long ways away, so we&#39;ll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet&#33;


Among other things in this paragraph, Mr. Moore mis-spells "ass-whuppin&#39;".


But, hey, who knows -- maybe you&#39;ll find Osama a few days before the election&#33; See, start thinking like THAT&#33; Keep hope alive&#33; Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil&#33;&#33;


No, Mr. Moore, it&#39;s THEIR oil, and we know it.


Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com)

And your contention would therefore be this letter "proves" Mr. Moore is right and Bush is wrong?

**Please excuse my ineptitude with the editting functions; I have added my own commentary to Mr. Moore&#39;s letter. I apologize to anyone who reads it again just to get my point.

[ShareDaddy]

Okay, I just spent the last 45 minutes or so reading through this entire string and I have (as usual) a few (maybe more) comments to make to all.

First, agnostic or atheist, beleiving that there isn&#39;t a GOD or that it is unknown seems to be splitting hairs. I see the differences, however small, there is a difference, but this is one case where you either have to beleive that there is or is not, as for the knowing for sure, leave that for when we will all truely need to know, hopefully soon after death in my book.

Second, The United States Of America is a great country, however not without faults. The US has always tried to be the worlds police force, nine times out of ten the world is very happy to have this arrangement. After the Gulf War (desert shield/desert storm, for those of you wearing diapers back then) the UN gave Saddam a list of rules to follow. He has not followed those rules and the UN has decided to not back those rules.

This would be similar to a parent making rules for the children, let us say "No TV after 8pm, lights out at 8:30 pm". Now it is 9pm and the TV is on and so are the lights, should the parent confront the children or simply let them continue without repurcussions? I say the parent turns off the TV and the lights, warns the children to follow the rules and the next time takes action.

Now depending on your culture action could be taken as a spanking, timeout, loss of other privledges, etc. My main point here is the repurcussions should reflect the weight of the rule. Saddam was not following the rules, actions were taken and those actions were not met with any urgence or truth from Saddam.

Third, I am not a supporter of the war, however I am also not an avid opponent of the war. I (deep down) think that this war is for more than IRAQI freedom, oil or what ever else you can imagine. I think that this war is farther reaching than most could understand, this war will in my opinion not result in better lives for either side, at least not in the near future. However as I have stated in previous strings regarding the war effort, there are millions of jewish people who would have loved the US had we stepped in and taken Hitler out before he began murdering innocents, I think Saddam must be stopped, before he (for lack of a better explanation) "Pulls A Hitler".

Fourth, as for Michael Moores speech, it stank. I think he could have came up with a much more robust message had he spent anytime thinking about what to say. Had any of you here in this string been given advance notice that you may in fact be called upon to say something at an event such as that, you would have spent some time and effort on what you were going to say, or at least I would have hoped so. You could say so much more in the same amount of time given enough forethought.

To sum any of this up into a meaningless little post is very difficult, however I do want to leave you with a few quotes, that I would hope would help all of us understand our selves a bit better, and just simply understand that we are all filled with our own thoughts, desires and feelings and none of us are going to agree with everyone&#39;s opinions, either based in truth or theory.

Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not; a sense of humor to console him for what he is.
Sir Francis Bacon

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
Aristotle

We praise a man who feels angry on the right grounds and against the right persons and also in the right manner at the right moment and for the right length of time.
Aristotle

We make war that we may live in peace.
Aristotle


I think the last 2 really hold some significance to this discussion, but you may take them as you see fit.

[ketoprak]

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
Aristotle

Are you thinking about Bush, Saddam or both, when refering to this?

[j2k4]

Originally posted by ketoprak@26 March 2003 - 16:38

A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
Aristotle

Are you thinking about Bush, Saddam or both, when refering to this?
I think the reference(s) are obvious. Part of the magic of reason is it&#39;s self-evidence; if you don&#39;t "get it" when it&#39;s right there to be "gotten", then you are lost.

This leads to posts that are less than, shall we say, reasonable?

[DataMore]

:blink: Boy, does Zardoz know how to ruin a thread&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink:

Anyway, back to the topic. I think Adrien Brody&#39;s acceptance speech was MUCH better than Michael Moore&#39;s.
He was subtle with his statements but also powerful at the same time.
Michael Moore looked like a mad man with all that shouting.
Did you notice that Michael Moore was shut up by the orchestra? Well, Adrien Brody told the orchestra to shut up and to listen for a few seconds... ;)

Here&#39;s the last part of his speech:


And you know, (the orchestra tries to shut him up) wait one second. One second, please one second. Cut it out, cut it out. I get one shot at this. I&#39;m sorry. I didn&#39;t say more than five names, I don&#39;t think, but. This is, you know, it fills me with great joy, but I am also filled with a lot of sadness tonight because I am accepting an award at such a strange time. And you know my experiences of making this film made me very aware of the sadness and the dehumanization of people at times of war. And the repercussions of war. And whatever you believe in, if it&#39;s God or Allah, may he watch over you and let&#39;s pray for a peaceful and swift resolution. Thank you. And I have a friend from Queens who&#39;s a soldier in Kuwait right now, Tommy Zarabinski, and I hope you and your boys make it back real soon. God bless you guys. I love you. Thank you very much.

And he got a standing ovation too...

[j2k4]

Originally posted by DataMore@27 March 2003 - 04:22
:blink: Boy, does Zardoz know how to ruin a thread&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink:

Anyway, back to the topic. I think Adrien Brody&#39;s acceptance speech was MUCH better than Michael Moore&#39;s.
He was subtle with his statements but also powerful at the same time.
Michael Moore looked like a mad man with all that shouting.
Did you notice that Michael Moore was shut up by the orchestra? Well, Adrien Brody told the orchestra to shut up and to listen for a few seconds... ;)

Here&#39;s the last part of his speech:


And you know, (the orchestra tries to shut him up) wait one second. One second, please one second. Cut it out, cut it out. I get one shot at this. I&#39;m sorry. I didn&#39;t say more than five names, I don&#39;t think, but. This is, you know, it fills me with great joy, but I am also filled with a lot of sadness tonight because I am accepting an award at such a strange time. And you know my experiences of making this film made me very aware of the sadness and the dehumanization of people at times of war. And the repercussions of war. And whatever you believe in, if it&#39;s God or Allah, may he watch over you and let&#39;s pray for a peaceful and swift resolution. Thank you. And I have a friend from Queens who&#39;s a soldier in Kuwait right now, Tommy Zarabinski, and I hope you and your boys make it back real soon. God bless you guys. I love you. Thank you very much.

And he got a standing ovation too...
And here&#39;s to you, DataMore, for airing what the rest of us missed. On point, sir.

[Z]

j2, is zardoz postin tha same thing again? just flame him till he gets his act together. :P

[ketoprak]

Originally posted by DataMore@27 March 2003 - 04:22
I think Adrien Brody&#39;s acceptance speech was MUCH better than Michael Moore&#39;s.
He was subtle with his statements but also powerful at the same time.

It was only sentimental, emotional. Moore&#39;s speech was political, much more interesting.

(edit: bad quote)

[Skillian]

Exactly, everyone gave him a standing ovation because it wasn&#39;t controversial in the slightest. What he said was valid, but it&#39;s been said a thousand times before. Hollywood prefers nice and predictable to rubbing up the wrong way.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by lil_z@27 March 2003 - 07:01
j2, is zardoz postin tha same thing again? just flame him till he gets his act together.&nbsp; :P
Yeah-he is.

But I have decided to ignore him; I have had enough overt fun with him.

From now on, if I DO respond specifically to him, he will end up sniffing the tendrils of "subtle smoke" and wondering if he farted while he wasn&#39;t paying attention.

[Marcus]

Originally posted by puremindmatters+25 March 2003 - 21:10--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (puremindmatters @ 25 March 2003 - 21:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--SuperJude™@25 March 2003 - 21:03
Now we have racist americans, the KKK and Jesus was not a jew all in one thread?

You are right - this is quite an achievement.
Maybe we all missed the twist - and learn that all people who didn&#39;t like Michael Moore&#39;s speech are KKK members who support the war because the hidden agenda behind it is to obscure that Jesus was black.
I rest my case in awe. [/b][/quote]



LOL............I havent laughed so muck in ages.
That sound like the only possible answer to me.
Unless of course the Black Jesus was a undercover American Iraqi sopporter.




Marcus...............

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Marcus+28 March 2003 - 14:56--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Marcus @ 28 March 2003 - 14:56)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -puremindmatters@25 March 2003 - 21:10
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperJude™@25 March 2003 - 21:03
Now we have racist americans, the KKK and Jesus was not a jew all in one thread?

You are right - this is quite an achievement.
Maybe we all missed the twist - and learn that all people who didn&#39;t like Michael Moore&#39;s speech are KKK members who support the war because the hidden agenda behind it is to obscure that Jesus was black.
I rest my case in awe.



LOL............I havent laughed so muck in ages.
That sound like the only possible answer to me.
Unless of course the Black Jesus was a undercover American Iraqi sopporter.




Marcus............... [/b][/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol

Ya think? :lol: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

[Marcus]

Originally posted by j2k4+28 March 2003 - 16:21--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 28 March 2003 - 16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Marcus@28 March 2003 - 14:56

Originally posted by -puremindmatters@25 March 2003 - 21:10
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperJude™@25 March 2003 - 21:03
Now we have racist americans, the KKK and Jesus was not a jew all in one thread?

You are right - this is quite an achievement.
Maybe we all missed the twist - and learn that all people who didn&#39;t like Michael Moore&#39;s speech are KKK members who support the war because the hidden agenda behind it is to obscure that Jesus was black.
I rest my case in awe.



LOL............I havent laughed so muck in ages.
That sound like the only possible answer to me.
Unless of course the Black Jesus was a undercover American Iraqi sopporter.




Marcus...............
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol

Ya think? :lol: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes: [/b][/quote]



Hope you don&#39;t take offence, But don&#39;t you think your eagle looks like a myopic owl close up?

[j2k4]

It&#39;s the shadowing, but you&#39;re on to something there. Maybe just a bit cross-eyed. Known on occasion to cause "friendly-fire".
In a more serious vein, I think the U.S. is afflicted with what might be termed "beneficient myopia".

[longterm]

I think my posting in the other site has merit here. I&#39;m interested to see this argued out, since I did not see Michael Moore&#39;s movies, nor his speech, but I did see the reactions. It is amusing to watch people fed a daily dose of media spout forth their "dinner table wisdom".
A couple points about the previous thread, so that loose ends may be tied up, or at least rerouted.
Of COURSE different cultures have different colored saviors&#33; How ludicrous would it be for me, painting a picture of my particular Lord&#39;s child, to paint it distinctly as a man from another culture? Duh&#33; Like the Swedes are going to have pictures of an Arabic Christ? As if Egyptians would portray their Christ as a 6 foot 2, eyes of blue?
Come on folks. A bit of common sense. Our blood is red the world entire. I would lay my life down for anyone in need, and I don&#39;t give a damn if you speak my language to thank me. It is not the thank you that is sacred. It is life itself which is sacred. Every single life. Every life that reads my words and says, "Dude, you are so full of it&#33;"
Fine. Let&#39;s talk.
Anyone refusing to talk, or rather, anyone unwilling to "listen" as it were, to varying viewpoints is trying to live the Jerry Springer way, which is basically:
If you say it loud enough, it must be true.
If you keep repeating it, it must be true.
If the people around you say it&#39;s true, it must be true.
With all this in mind, I&#39;m going to paste my first ever posting, (beyond a reply), to this site, earlier today.
Have fun&#33; (These are things thought and written independently from Mr. Moore&#39;s, based on data gathered, and trying to form a picture from the data...not having the picture and then looking for data to support it. I&#39;m just some poor bastard living below the poverty level, here, but so far, before the attacks actually started, I asked just about everyone I met about the situation. Most, and by most, I&#39;m comfortable saying about 95%, said, basically, "No, what the hell are our boys and girls doing over there to die for Mr. Bush&#39;s friggin&#39; oil, cause there&#39;s no WAY President Bush is over there for a humanitarian effort, and no we haven&#39;t heard a damned thing about him ready to attack us or anyone else."
So the anti-war people tended to be...most Americans.
Of course, now that there is footage of our guys dying on camera...forget it&#33; "Nuke &#39;em" is a growing sentiment now, with NO distinction AT ALL between Saddam and his countrymen. NONE. I hear people from different economic strata refer to the whole country as being filled with "sand-n***ers", which is loathsome to me. But we have bought the bushel, and now we will choke on it, thank you very much.
Did Mr. Moore&#39;s movie make mention of what the word Columbine actually means? If not, here goes.
Columbine means "like a dove, or as a dove", in the same way canine refers to dog.
So. The symbol of peace...tragic. Very sad. Very...very.
Anyway, here&#39;s my load of...well, you know.
######################################

My first posting here. I just have a few opinions, and would love feedback on them. I&#39;m willing to answer any and all queries, so someone out there prove me wrong without making me dead. (Insert a grin here, please.) I&#39;d love to be proven wrong, but I&#39;m biased. I want to live to enjoy MY life, and I want you to live and enjoy YOURS. It&#39;s that...damned...simple. With that in mind:
On with the show&#33;
TOP TEN QUESTIONS I&#39;D LIKE TO SEE PRESIDENT BUSH ANSWER LIVE:
(I will include here and there book titles and authors which illuminate or pose similar issues.)
10. If you "are" committed to the New World Order, will the rest of the world be brought "up" to the U.S. standard of living, or will the U.S. continue to edge toward being a 3rd world country, with ACTUAL ever growing inadequate:
Food, shelter, education, health care?
Try reading:
"Constitution: Fact or Fiction--The Story of the Nation&#39;s Descent from a Constitutional Republic through a Constitutional Dictatorship to an Unconstitutional Dictatorship", by Dr. Eugene Schroder-with Micki Nellis
9. Can you prove, without strongarm tactics, that Osama bin Laden was not acting in the interests of the "ruling class" of the U.S., seeing as how the CIA did "happen" to give him, (and consequently his men), in the name of fighting for freedom,
training and &#036;? (Which would, of course, trace the perpetrators of 9/11 attacks to a location distinctly different than that of Afghanistan...or Iraq.)
Try reading both, 1984, and Animal Farm, both by George Orwell.
8. Was Osama bin Laden "so" steeped in American psychology as to understand the ramifications of using...that...one...date, to attack? 9-11?
Emergency, anyone? Just call 911&#33; Oh, that also "happens" to be the day when our country&#39;s ENTIRE paradigm shifted so that a new, long-term program was neatly installed to implant mistrust and hate.
How easily done&#33; Communism gone? No need for wiretapping? No need for mail tampering? No need for incorrectly preparing our students for life? No need for CIA? Not on this watch&#33; Ever&#33;
Hmm. Try reading:
"Who Will Tell The People: The Betrayal of American Democracy" by William Greider.
7. Are there any differences between the slaves of the 1700s and 1800s and the average American citizen today? ("Yes, plenty&#33; Look at all the new cars, computer games, movies, airplanes, trains, telephones, medicines, operations, information, etc.")
Okay, I&#39;ll rephrase:
Slaves had, in general, inadequate housing, poor educational opportunities, little mobility, little privacy,
minimal food requirements, many losses of offspring, due to selling by owner, minimal recourses to injury or health, since replacing them was, oft times, considered cheaper.
Today, U.S. citizens "enjoy": Inadequate housing, some of which was brought about by meetings between bankers of other countries, (It was decided, outside the U.S., that low-income housing was to be classified as a "high-risk" proposition, thus ensuring that few, if any, American banks would underwrite such projects in the future.)
Incomplete and faulty education, which ensures a high number of "servers" to serve those born into "higher" (more wealthy) families, and also ensures fewer questions when told to put their necks on the line.
"Don&#39;t think. Just do it." Aahhh. Thank you Nike. What a cogent summation of America, (read as especially anyone under 40.)
Overdrugging of children, especially if, God forbid, they ask alot of questions, and don&#39;t seem able to concentrate for as long as, say, a 30 year-old. (My, your 8-year old acts "just" like a child&#33; "I know. I&#39;m so ashamed&#33;" Hmm.
This brings us...FINALLY...to the question&#33;
(remember the top 10 questions for the Prez?)
(rephrased #7):What, specifically, are YOU doing, to ensure that U.S. is not turned into another 3rd world country, since economists know that war footing is disastrous for freedom, and real prosperity.
Try reading:
"Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships" by Mancur Olson
6. If it is true that only about 100 years of oil are theorized to remain on the planet, (and I understand it&#39;s merely a theory, and an estimate), what steps are being taken by the Oil Companies to ensure that they will remain viable entities beyond 100 years? In other words, are they branching out into technological areas which will keep them at the top of the power food chain, so that when the oil runs dry, they will still have humanity "over a barrel", so to speak?
Does it involve eliminating cash as a viable spending unit, and does it tie into the creation of the Euro-dollar?
5. Since nothing lasts forever, and the U.S. government is not exactly "God Itself", and the government knows this, what steps have the past administrations taken to ensure that future administrations would be well nigh invulnerable to an "actual" democracy, and what are your "think tanks" coming up with to discredit anyone with a brain and an interest in life and love?
(Remember, extremes cancel each other out. It&#39;s been pointed out that in Iraq, Saddam was "voted" in with 100% of the vote. 100%. We know that&#39;s a sham. Now, look at us, in the U.S.
By way of showing.... just.... how....democratic.... we.... are..... OUR country sits and waits, while OUR leader is voted in by a margin of a FEW THOUSAND. WOW&#33; IT MUST BE A FREE COUNTRY&#33; By the way, please ignore the fact that the discrepancy which gave our leader the chair....just....so ....happened....to be in the 1 out of 50
states of which his brother was Governer. Well&#33; Don&#39;t that beat all&#33; What an AMAZING coincidence.
(Go freedom&#33; Wo-hoo&#33;))
4. Where does your look of smugness come from, when "your" people are being killed? You don&#39;t really seem to ponder anything, and when you do, you chuckle. You either listen with a "cat that got the canary, and a contract that delivers all future canaries to your mouth" grin, or talk with a smack the podium "We&#39;ve GOT to do it, it&#39;s just so damned reviling what the man does&#33; Wooo it makes me shiver with rage&#33;" style. And if it&#39;s true, what about what YOU said , and I&#39;m quoting here, Mr. President,
"I hate lies and deception." And then you repeated it&#33;
Does this mean that: You&#39;re ready to tell the American people about the truth behind the "War on this...and the War on that?" The truth about how:
Under the War Powers, given the American President, in a declared State of Emergency, which we&#39;ve been in since 1933, YOU, Mr. Bush, are delegated THESE powers, withOUT reference to normal constitutional process:
seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and in a plethora of ways, control the lives of all American citizens.
Let&#39;s hear the truth, baby&#33; You "hate" lies and deception. Apologize to the people, and return control of their government to them, and stop having controlled crisis, which allow you to solidify your power and condemn all those who love freedom.
Try reading the Declaration of Independence. Mayhap the Constitution? How about: "Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, " reported by James Madison, with an introduction by Adrienne Koch.
3. Are you aware of how many of Clinton&#39;s bodyguards, (and others around him) died while he was in office, and do you think it&#39;s strange, or do you just go by the, "If you want to make an omelet, you have to crack some eggs." (Actually, a more accurate prhasing might read: If you want to keep the money where it is, you have to kill some poor bastards.), credo of power?
2. Do you TRULY....and this is a doozy....&#39;cause it could be your soul we&#39;re talking about here (but you do have to sorta believe in God for it to carry any meaning)....do you TRULY think you&#39;re a man of God, regardless of what faith you check in the box? (Protestant, Catholic, etc) If so, which God? Where in YOUR bible does it say,
"Yes, you may lie and oppress your people when you have the chance, because they would do the same to you, and screw the future and all those who might vary in opinion, &#39;cause quite frankly, Mr. Bush...you are the Man&#33;" My bible doesn&#39;t say that.
Get the world good and mad at the U.S., so that if we&#39;re thrown out of the U.N. or if we decide to leave on our own, why, that&#39;s just a great reason to throw up a psychological wall around America and get us good and ready to die for just about any reason, would you just say please, Mr. President, I&#39;ll send my kids over to die, because it MUST be those people, we can&#39;t understand their language, so they MUST be wrong, why they don&#39;t even speak English, how COULD they be right, or not even RIGHT...why should they even live, when American people could use that land and oil really well for themselves, and please, will someone impregnate me so that I may send my child to die for lies? Please? Don&#39;t send your kids, Mr. President, or ANY kids from the "ruling class". (After all: "What good is it being a Congressman or Senator if I can&#39;t skate outside the lines? I make the laws, I should be able to break them&#33; Why send my kid? They might grow up to be somebody&#33; Get some kid from a public school&#33; What do you think they&#39;re there for? To make decisions that&#39;ll affect where I park? Not on your life&#33;")
I am sure that many are dying, both Iraqis and Americans. I&#39;m sure both sides have been inflamed to a good pitch, and I&#39;m sure that both sides will commit atrocities, when defined as "brutal". War is brutal. What I question is not the character of the Americans in Iraq fighting as they&#39;ve been trained. It is the ACTUAL reason we&#39;re there that poses the dilemna. We kill people here, all the time, and innocent ones too, and the method does not change the outcome. Dead is dead. I happen to love this country, very much. But I love it in a way that is considered, and being rendered, obsolete. I think we are "supposed" to be free to speak our minds, and do as we wanted, barring that what we wanted was to harm another person, in some way, be it to their person, their family or their livelihood.
Also freedom to teach and raise our kids how we saw fit. Failure to do so in a competent way is its own consequence. We do not have this freedom.
My last question I&#39;d love to see Mr. Bush answer live is this:
1. What steps are being taken to make sure that "coalition forces" will not take back another type of disease, such as Gulf War Syndrome, which may infect people other then spouses, since there&#39;s been OVER a decade to REFINE and DESIGN NEW chemical and biological weaponry, and which MAY have a MUCH longer incubate time, to allow for what we THINK are "safe returns", and how do we know whether or not the areas which our troops are going over right now have NOT been heavily sprayed with passive contaminants so that every step they take gets them closer to a second contaminant that will turn the passive one active? How do we know whether the 2nd agent is to be applied in Iraq...or in our country?
You seem well able to document every sneeze which results in another accidental death.
Has anyone in your think tanks thought of these things, or are you counting on them?

Try reading:
"The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America", by Charlotte Iserbyte (I may have the last name wrong by a couple letters, but it&#39;s darned close&#33;)
Also try:
"The Handmaid&#39;s Tale" by Margeret Atwood
"Dune" by Frank Herbert (Written in 1965, to get the original story. His son, Brian, carries on the story remarkably well, but the underlying vision, and the underlying wisdom (Actually, the whole series, and for those less inclined to read all 6 books completely, if you go through and read all the little introductions to each chapter, you get a pretty nice summary of wisdom hard to find in this world. One of my favorite authors for sheer scope and audacity of vision. A remarkable man, and easily my choice if I were asked who I most wanted to meet...ever. Frank Herbert pops up like an underweight piece of toast in a toaster on steroids.
:)
My favorite lessons from Herbert?
Consequences.
My favorite quote from Frank Herbert:
"Life cannot find reasons to sustain it, cannot be a source of decent mutual regard, unless each of us resolves to breathe such qualities into it."
How incredible and how apt...is that?
If you don&#39;t understand it, get a dictionary.
Read it again. Out loud. Then examine yourself.

Also try reading:
(By the way, if you&#39;re under 30 and hate reading...I&#39;m sorry about that. You may wish to give it a try. Critical thinking depends upon more than the small realities we wake and walk through daily, and the future depends on critical thinking...on you.)
"Nature&#39;s End", by Whitley Strieber and James Kunetka
"A Force Upon The Plain: The American Militia Movement and the Politics of Hate" by Kenneth Stern
"The Closing of the American Mind" by Allen Bloom
"An Illiberal Education" and "The End of Racism", both by Dinesh D&#39; Souza
"Excellence: Can We Be Excellent and Equal Too?" by John W. Gardner

I&#39;ll check back on this later today to see how many think I&#39;m nuts...it won&#39;t be a couple, I&#39;m sure.

JUST CURIOUS&#33;

[longterm]

Sorry for the two typos. :o
reprhasing should read "rephrasing"
and - then- should&#39;ve been "than"
Keen eyes will see where they&#39;re supposed to go.
I detest seeming illterate. ;) My information is volatile enough without people thinking it&#39;s coming from a cretin. :blink:
B)