Editorial: Michael Moore's patriotism

[ruthie]

An editorial
October 17, 2004

Filmmaker Michael Moore is a controversial figure. The left loves him for having the courage to shine the light of truth on the abuses of power and privilege that have defined the past 3 years of American history.

For exactly the same reason, the right hates him. And most of America's elite media have a hard time figuring out what to do with him - they cannot dismiss the most successful documentary filmmaker in American history, yet they do not feel comfortable giving the man and his ideas the attention that is usually afforded so successful and broadly recognized a commentator on the Zeitgeist.

When Moore appears in Madison tonight, for an 8 p.m. get-out-the-vote rally at the Memorial Union Terrace, all of the passions and conundrums associated with the man who made the film "Fahrenheit 9/11" will be on display. There will be fans, there will be protesters, and there will be folks trying to make sense of the phenomenon. And, as is the case everywhere that Moore goes, there will be passionate debate about not just the issues of this election but the direction of this country.

Michael Moore tries hard to keep things light - and there is certainly a great deal of humor to be found in his films, books and public pronouncements. But he is not a joke. Indeed, the stir he has created nationally, and internationally, is worthy of note. In much of the world, Michael Moore is the best-known critic of the Bush administration's reign of error. And, frankly, we couldn't think of a better representative of American opposition to military adventurism, crony capitalism and democratic decay.

Yes, of course, there are even some of the left who would prefer that Moore be a little more cautious in his comments, a little more mainstream in his critique. There are a lot of liberals who get scared when their tribunes start talking too much about issues of race, class and empire building.

To our view, however, it is when Moore is blunt that he sounds most American.

This country was not founded by polite people. The American revolution did not follow Robert's Rules of Order. The America experiment was launched in revolt against the existing order, against corrupt kings and their equally corrupt business partners. Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and their kind rejected the divine right of kings; they did not believe that power should pass from one King George to another. And the best of their number, Tom Paine, preached the healing power of revolution - not just for America but for the world.

Fifty years after the minutemen of Lexington and Concord fired the shots heard 'round the world, Daniel Webster would look back at that event and suggest, "The great wheel of political revolution began to move in America."

Reading the writings of the founders and their true descendants is a lot like watching a Michael Moore film. Often, Moore seems to channel the founders. When Moore speaks against military misadventures like the U.S. occupation of oil-rich lands such as Iraq, he echoes the stern warning of Thomas Jefferson that "if there be one principle more deeply written than any other in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest."

And how similar are Moore's incitements against presidential war making to the observation of James Madison: "War is in fact the true nurse of executive aggrandizement. ... The strongest passions, and the most dangerous weaknesses of the human breast; ambition, avarice, vanity, the honorable or venial love of fame, are all in conspiracy against the desire and duty of peace."

Nothing would horrify Moore's critics more than the suggestion that he might well be the best upholder of the revolutionary spirit in the current day - and thus the greatest patriot. But, then, Moore's critics tend to confuse patriotism with blind obedience. And if Jefferson and Madison teach us anything, it is that the true patriot must always stand against King George.
from The Capital Times (http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/index.php?ntid=14184&ntpid=0)

[spinningfreemanny]

Seriously....

The article is a bunch of left wing unequivical bias a normal person would just skip over, or just raise a cheer for those who support it...


Ironicly; it's exactly Michael Moore's style... :shifty:

[j2k4]

The followers of Moore exhibit a stunning naivete.

This besides the fact of his political and social relevance having just collapsed; most liberals missed the blessed event.

[Busyman]

The followers of Moore exhibit a stunning naivete.

This besides the fact of his political and social relevance having just collapsed; most liberals missed the blessed event.
I haven't been interested either way.

Alas, either way he has hurt the Republican party undeniably. :dry:

[cpt_azad]

I haven't been interested either way.

Alas, either way he has hurt the Republican party undeniably. :dry:


agreed. i also agree with manny, that article is leftwing leftovers, full of bias. and j2 u call moore supporters naive. i'm not a moore follower, but i know that bush followers are also naive. i pray that someone as intellectual as j2 isn't a naive person dear heavens no :)

[Busyman]

agreed. i also agree with manny, that article is leftwing leftovers, full of bias. and j2 u call moore supporters naive. i'm not a moore follower, but i know that bush followers are also naive. i pray that someone as intellectual as j2 isn't a naive person dear heavens no :)
Well......he is a Bush follower.

;)

I was very surprised when I first found out too.
It broke my heart. :(

[cpt_azad]

Well......he is a Bush follower.

;)

I was very surprised when I first found out too.
It broke my heart. :(


as it did mine :( , but i've come to live with it.... :(

[BigBank_Hank]

For everything you need to know about Moore read the book in my Sig.

[Illuminati]

While I am one to listen and take in what Moore has to say, even I can say that editorial was a little too left-wing for my liking :unsure:

[Busyman]

For everything you need to know about Moore read the book in my Sig.
He can't be but so stupid.

As I said before, he has caused your party tons pain.

To say he hasn't is ludicrous so there had to be some intelligence there hmmm?

[BigBank_Hank]

Tons of pain how? By coming out with a film that anyone with a brain laughed at because it was so ludicrous. Puh leeease.

[vidcc]

i don't watch things like f911, or the retaliatory movies as they are biased, howevever time is showing that a lot of the accusations are correct, even if put in a format that is disagreable.

Moore is an intelligent man that knows how to put his message across with the biggest impact...the perceived level of his intelligence directly corresponds to who he criticises. No doubt if he did a hatchet job on Clinton or Kerry he would be hailed as a patriot by those that now dismiss him.

[Busyman]

Tons of pain how? By coming out with a film that anyone with a brain laughed at because it was so ludicrous. Puh leeease.
The passwords are:

Keep Your Head In The Sand

:dry:

[BigBank_Hank]

I knew that this link would come in handy again.

Just for you B. This column was written by a well know liberal.

Clicky Clicky (http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/)

[vidcc]

actually hank...if he does no harm to the republican party....why all the efforts to stop the films?
Why all the mad rush to make rebuttal attacks?

[BigBank_Hank]

Well if films like this do hurt why hasn’t Kerry surged forward in the polls? With all the attacks that Bush has been getting Kerry should be way ahead by now.

Disney was the original distributor for the film and they choose not to release it because the Disney Corp. thought that the film was to partisan for their likings.

[vidcc]

Well if films like this do hurt why hasn’t Kerry surged forward in the polls? With all the attacks that Bush has been getting Kerry should be way ahead by now.

. because mostly Kerry supporters watched it...why would it change their mind? and because mostly Bush supporters didn't watch it...it was judged without view. But as i asked why worry and make such a fuss ...look at your sig... if they do no harm?


Disney was the original distributor for the film and they choose not to release it because the Disney Corp. thought that the film was to partisan for their likings Actually you need to follow a connections trail to get to the bottom of that...

Look how sinclair is influencing the media

Edit: what exactly is your problem with mr. moore?

[scroff]

"thought that the film was to partisan for their likings"

Too "liberal" is more like it. Disney has no problem with partisan radio or TV... Check out the stations Disney owns and who those stations air. (hint; Rush Limbaugh is just one of them) One of the biggest investors in Euro Disney also happens to be one Saudi prince, not portrayed favorably in F911.

As far as why Kerry hasn't surged forward in he polls. IMNSHO, Jesus himself could be the Democratic candidat and they would still be the same. An equally valid question is why isn't a "wartime" incumbent doing much better in the polls?

[BigBank_Hank]

because mostly Kerry supporters watched it...why would it change their mind? and because mostly Bush supporters didn't watch it...it was judged without view. But as i asked why worry and make such a fuss ...look at your sig... if they do no harm?

I refused to go to the show and watch it because I will not give my hard earned money away to Moore. There were plenty of articles written about it that told me everything that I needed to know about the film.


Edit: what exactly is your problem with mr. moore?

If you were to read the book in my sig you would have a better understanding. If you have a chance to go by the library pick it up and give it a read.

[Rat Faced]

I refused to go to the show and watch it because I will not give my hard earned money away to Moore. There were plenty of articles written about it that told me everything that I needed to know about the film.



If you were to read the book in my sig you would have a better understanding. If you have a chance to go by the library pick it up and give it a read.

You didnt have to.

Its widely available free, indeed Mr Moore encourages p2p to download this particular film i believe...

[spinningfreemanny]

I knew that this link would come in handy again.

Just for you B. This column was written by a well know liberal.

Clicky Clicky (http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/)

I really love that article; I have had it bookmarked for a few months now

[vidcc]

Articles written about it are opinions, so it would be fair to say you based your opinions on the opinion that you wanted to hear...not on the film itself.

You chose to believe the negative reviews not the positive ones...i suspect because of who he chose as his subject.

[spinningfreemanny]

Articles written about it are opinions, so it would be fair to say you based your opinions on the opinion that you wanted to hear...not on the film itself.

You chose to believe the negative reviews not the positive ones...i suspect because of who he chose as his subject.

wrong...read the article

[ElvisLover]

wrong...read the article


How can that be wrong? Its that blokes opinion of the film and Michael Moore :blink:

[Rat Faced]

wrong...read the article

No, your wrong.

You cannot have an opinion on a subjective matter, without actually seeing what your claiming to have an opinion about.

I've seen it, i can honestly say its a crap Movie and biased.. in my opinion.

You cant, you havent seen it, your relying on other people's opinions...


I really dont give a stuff what peoples politics and opinions are... however, time and again, you demonstrate that you just relay other peoples opinions... you never actually look into stuff enough to form your own.

I can dig out loads of articles saying the movie is brilliant... Doesnt mean id agree with them. Like i said, in my opinion it was crap...

HOWEVER, no one can say that everything or indeed most of whats in the movie is incorrect... even the GOP havent tried that one. The most they have tried is to point out one or two minor discrepancies... and none of them are willing to take him to court over the movie, which would be their right if they feel Libeled.

[vidcc]

i have to agree with the others manny ...you made a boo boo.

but please tell me what it is you object to about moores film.. Hank didn't answer...perhaps you will


As i said i haven't seen the film but from the general feeling i get from reviews he took some facts and stretched them and spun them into a web.

[Busyman]

I refused to go to the show and watch it because I will not give my hard earned money away to Moore. There were plenty of articles written about it that told me everything that I needed to know about the film.



If you were to read the book in my sig you would have a better understanding. If you have a chance to go by the library pick it up and give it a read.
You are a young man with his fingers in his ears and his eyes closed which is actually rather odd for a young person.

I still soak up info like an old sponge but I've been that way before your current age.

I watched Bush speak as well as Kerry at their respective conventions.

Regarding the lack of surge in the polls by Kerry, why do you give polls such credence?

If Kerry wins, what of your polls then?

F911 does have some things that are pretty factual albeit rather low to include in the film.
Our tough Commander In Chief sitting for 7 minutes after hearing of an attack was hilarious and very sad.

For some reason he reminds me of the Stilson character in The Dead Zone movie.....well liked but when shot at, uses a child as a human shield.

If had rate toughness

it's someone who fought in war and then had the guts speak out against it after he served.

What's Bush's resume?

[spinningfreemanny]

As i said i haven't seen the film but from the general feeling i get from reviews he took some facts and stretched them and spun them into a web.

Exactly...what you said, That is what I object to.

Though the article is opinion...it is based on facts that Mr. Hitchens points out. The authors displays in detail the untruths that Moore lays out.

All you need is a little poison in a big glass to kill you...

I have seen the film and it is much false connotation based on a little truth... RF, your presumptions on my ideals are fastly getting annoying. I do not disestablish your opinions. These presumptions do though affirm that I am indeed getting something through when you have to resort to repeatedly try to discredit my opinions through whatever means instead of counter them.

EDIT: or maybe it's something trivial like my sig that gets you and others in a huff? :blink:

[Rat Faced]

I have seen the film and it is much false connotation based on a little truth... RF, your presumptions on my ideals are fastly getting annoying.

Not at all...

I thought i made it clear that I thought you hadnt seen the film.

If you have, then the whole of my post is non-consequential... the whole point was making opinions based on other peoples critique. Im sure you would agree with the point, even if i mistakenly put you into this category on this one.

[spinningfreemanny]

Why would you assume I didn't?

[vidcc]

Exactly...what you said, That is what I object to.

ok so you object to this
he took some facts and stretched them and spun them into a web.But do you object to this.?
he voted 98 times to increase taxBush on Kerry

Or anything the swiftboats vets say about kerry?

[Busyman]

Why would you assume I didn't?
Agreed. Not conservatives have their fingers in their ears.

Some actually hear the logic and still make the bad choices. :P

[BigBank_Hank]

but please tell me what it is you object to about moores film.. Hank didn't answer...perhaps you will



If you were to read the book in my sig you would have a better understanding. If you have a chance to go by the library pick it up and give it a read.

Did so :P

[vidcc]

Did so :PNo........ that pointed me to someone elses opinion, which is apparently what you are basing your opinion on.

but perhaps you could voice your opinion on bush saying kerry voted 98 times to increase tax which is quite frankly a stretch of the imagination...just what moore is accused of

[BigBank_Hank]

What the book points out is facts about Moore. It talks about when he worked for different newspapers and magazines and all of the books and films that he’s done. It breaks down in detail each book and movie and points out all of the inaccuracies in them.

What in the world does the Presidential debate have to do with Moore? We’re comparing apples and oranges again.

[vidcc]

What the book points out is facts about Moore. It talks about when he worked for different newspapers and magazines and all of the books and films that he’s done. It breaks down in detail each book and movie and points out all of the inaccuracies in them.

What in the world does the Presidential debate have to do with Moore? We’re comparing apples and oranges again.
what iam doing is finding the double standard... moore stretching a "fact" = lying unpatriotic "stupid fat person"

Bush stretching a "fact" (and it was a huge stretch) = OK in your book

[BigBank_Hank]

And with that you are being one sided. What about Kerry and all of the things that he said?

[vidcc]

And with that you are being one sided. What about Kerry and all of the things that he said?oh i agree kerry spins bush stuff...i didn't need to use kerry because you had moore and your objection to moore was distotions of "your guy"

[ruthie]

What the book points out is facts about Moore. It talks about when he worked for different newspapers and magazines and all of the books and films that he’s done. It breaks down in detail each book and movie and points out all of the inaccuracies in them.

What in the world does the Presidential debate have to do with Moore? We’re comparing apples and oranges again.

I'd like it if you please point out inaccuracies in F911. By the way, the conservatives beloved Fox News website gave the film a bravo.

[Biggles]

I'd like it if you please point out inaccuracies in F911. By the way, the conservatives beloved Fox News website gave the film a bravo.


Mr. O'Reilly didn't like it though. It made him vibrate with anger (or something) :shifty:

[BigBank_Hank]

I knew that this link would come in handy again.

Just for you B. This column was written by a well know liberal.

Clicky Clicky (http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/)

Just for you Ruthie.

[spinningfreemanny]

Agreed. Not conservatives have their fingers in their ears.

Some actually hear the logic and still make the bad choices. :P

If Michael Moore is logic, then the Sun goes around the Earth. :blink:

[vidcc]

If Michael Moore is logic, then the Sun goes around the Earth. :blink:likewise for the person he chose as his subject matter.

I'm still waiting for your views on Bush and the 98 vote claim.... a classic in the standards that you accuse moore of

[ElvisLover]

And with that you are being one sided. What about Kerry and all of the things that he said?


Answer the question though :rolleyes:

[spinningfreemanny]

likewise for the person he chose as his subject matter.

I'm still waiting for your views on Bush and the 98 vote claim.... a classic in the standards that you accuse moore of


Being not well read in the claim...I would ask a few questions.

Did Kerry say yea 98 times in the support of tax increases?

and was the quote "He voted 98 times to increase tax"?

If he did indeed say yea 98 times then I don't see the fault. If he didn't then the claim is inaccurate.

[BigBank_Hank]

Be prepared Manny. I foresee a barrage from Factcheck.org on the horizon.

[spinningfreemanny]

Well I read the campaign statement and it seems accurate...
Campaign statement (http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/BushCampaignOct11Rebuttalre98votes.pdf)

[vidcc]

Being not well read in the claim...I would ask a few questions.

Did Kerry say yea 98 times in the support of tax increases?

and was the quote "He voted 98 times to increase tax"?

If he did indeed say yea 98 times then I don't see the fault. If he didn't then the claim is inaccurate.
How can you make a proper decision on voting if you don't check up on statements made about the opponents of each candidate?
http://www.factcheck.org/article247.html

please read the article manny as i feel that you are getting all your imformation about kerry from the Bush campaign. While you are on the site feel free to check out Kerry's spins.... This is the site that cheney ment to point everyone to...it is truthful and non biased.

@ Hank..perhaps you would prefer me to point to kerry's website.. so you could say it was a biased stance...please read it as well.

I am not trying to get you to change you mind about who to vote for, what i am trying to do is get you to look at the validity of the reasons given to not vote for someone.

I chose tax in this example but i could go to many...it also puts a question mark over the accusation of kerry being a "flip flopper"...his record actually shows that his past backs up what he proposes for the future. We hear Bush say "you can run but you can't hide"...well i wish Kerry would come out and say..."here is my record" because agree with his policy or not he has nothing to hide...his record reflects what he is telling us

What i am saying is don't rely on Bush to give you the facts about kerry, also don't rely on bush to give you the full story of his manifesto

Likewise don't rely on kerry for bush facts (but then i know you don't believe a word he says)

[vidcc]

Well I read the campaign statement and it seems accurate...
Campaign statement (http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/BushCampaignOct11Rebuttalre98votes.pdf)

please read the article manny as i feel that you are getting all your imformation about kerry from the Bush campaign
Well check the facts...not what Bush tell you

[spinningfreemanny]

well, he acted like a typical liberal 350 times. I wonder how he compares to others in the senate?


Now I will gladly state that there are misrepresntations on both sides as I am learning are a simple part of politics. You will never see me concide that Kerry is decisive though; He is a Clinton poll politician to the core.

[scroff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBank_Hank
I knew that this link would come in handy again.

Just for you B. This column was written by a well know liberal.

Clicky Clicky



Just for you Ruthie..

Without even doing the clicky clicky I'll guess this is the Hitchens article. Hitchens is as much a liberal as I am a Republican. He may have been at one time, but, like Dennis Miller, he's not anymore. Ok lemme click through now.

Yea it is. I saw this article when it came out. I'm curious, Hank... have you seen f911? Are you aware of the inconsistencies between the movie and Hitchens article? Hitchens really doesn't refute anything in the movie, he gives his opinion of it, and it's more of an attack on Moore than anything else. He doesn't show anywhere, that can't be easily refuted, that Moore is wrong, except perhaps where he discuses the planes in the no-fly zones being shot at as an "attack on Americans", but that too is a matter of interpretation and opinion.

I'm on vacation right now, spending some time with my father in San Francisco, but when I get home maybe I'll spend some time fisking Hitchens for you. It will be more time consuming than difficult... it's really a weak argument.

In the meantime, if you haven't already, go see f911.

[Rat Faced]

Nice to see you posting again Scrogg ;)

Welcome back, and hope your enjoying your holiday :)

[scroff]

Here's the key words in that rebuttal you linked to manny;
"| Paid for by Bush-Cheney '04, Inc. |"

I'm curious what you have against liberals? You say kerry acted "like a typical liberal 350 times". I'm curious what that means to you. Let me ask you... how many of those 350 votes were procedural? How many were for revisions? How many were simply votes to begin or end debate?

[scroff]

Nice to see you posting again Scrogg ;)

Welcome back, and hope your enjoying your holiday :)

So far so good, RF. Went to see the last Liberty Ship floating today. My ol' man was in heaven. He was in the Merchant Marine from 42 to 46, says they were the best years of his life.

Thanks for the wb. :)

[Yogi]

I am allways surprised how fast people call something "leftwing" in here when

in my opinion it is at best moderate rightwing..........


I love Michael Moore.

I know his work is sheer propaganda.

But as it is mostly pointed at the coorparate criminal's in this world, it suits me fine

and even gives me the giggles from time to time.


"Big" Hank: Why keep referring to third party sources; do you not have an opinion of

your own????

[Rat Faced]

I am allways surprised how fast people call something "leftwing" in here when

in my opinion it is at best moderate rightwing..........



We've had that debate many times Yogi...

What USA call "Left" and "Liberal", Europeans generally dont ;)

[Yogi]

Okay.

[Busyman]

"Big" Hank: Why keep referring to third party sources; do you not have an opinion of your own????
...and we wait for a clicky to point to Hanks opinion. :rolleyes:

[ElvisLover]

...and we wait for a clicky to point to Hanks opinion. :rolleyes:


:lol: so true though

[BigBank_Hank]

Unbelievable. Ruthie and RF are the reigning king and queen of copying and pasting and yet you all have the never to call me out on it. Why don’t you take a look around the Talk Club and see how many articles I’ve posted as compared to Ruthie or anyone else.

[ruthie]

and your point is?

[BigBank_Hank]

Apparently you’ve missed it as it flew right over your head.

[Rat Faced]

Apparently you’ve missed it as it flew right over your head.

Much like "Consequences to Actions" goes over yours?

Basic Physics, as well as Sociology and Psychology I believe...

[Busyman]

Unbelievable. Ruthie and RF are the reigning king and queen of copying and pasting and yet you all have the never to call me out on it. Why don’t you take a look around the Talk Club and see how many articles I’ve posted as compared to Ruthie or anyone else.
I also get their opinions on things. I know their views without an editorial for me to figure it out. I also can get their views whether it's regarding a liberal or conservative post.

I only know your views from you saying that you like Bush.....and that's pretty much it. This is where my previous automaton remarks about you came from.

[Biggles]

By and large, I have a preference for dialogue rather than wade through long cut and pastes ( :( which I confess, I only read if they are succinct or engaging)

I am at a loss with the title of this thread though. Mr. Moore's patriotism is hardly an issue. He clearly loves his country but would like to see it move to the left politically. This is hardly heresy in a democracy.

The USA has, rightly, a reputation for tolerance and openness. If there are those of a political persuassion that would like to be less tolerant and open are they also "un-American" and unpatriotic?

It is a dark day when one part of the political play room claims sole ownership of the patriotism ball and will not others play too.

[ruthie]

Unbelievable. Ruthie and RF are the reigning king and queen of copying and pasting and yet you all have the never to call me out on it. Why don’t you take a look around the Talk Club and see how many articles I’ve posted as compared to Ruthie or anyone else.

Apparently you’ve missed it as it flew right over your head.

What does posting articles have to do with anything, Hank? I purposely cut, paste, and identify sources. It's called sharing information.

[ruthie]

By and large, I have a preference for dialogue rather than wade through long cut and pastes ( :( which I confess, I only read if they are succinct or engaging)

I am at a loss with the title of this thread though. Mr. Moore's patriotism is hardly an issue. He clearly loves his country but would like to see it move to the left politically. This is hardly heresy in a democracy.

The USA has, rightly, a reputation for tolerance and openness. If there are those of a political persuassion that would like to be less tolerant and open are they also "un-American" and unpatriotic?

It is dark day when one part of the political play room claims sole ownership of the patriotism ball and will not others play too.

well said.

[BigBank_Hank]

What does posting articles have to do with anything, Hank? I purposely cut, paste, and identify sources. It's called sharing information.

Ah yes but when I do it, twice here in the Talk Club compared to your seven, I get called out on it. See the hypocrisy in that?

[ruthie]

Ah yes but when I do it, twice here in the Talk Club compared to your seven, I get called out on it. See the hypocrisy in that?

Well, do youthink I only get positive feedback? ROFL

[Busyman]

Ah yes but when I do it, twice here in the Talk Club compared to your seven, I get called out on it. See the hypocrisy in that?
That's all you do.