The Death of Fallujah

[ruthie]

Fallujah has been under constant bombardment. A small hospital has been totally destroyed tonight. Tactical manuveur?
Troops are "preparing" the way to go into the city. It seems like the prep work includes killing lots of civilians...who "they" like to call insurgents.
The troops are awaiting the word from allawi...Washington's puppet. We are about to read accounts of a slaughter.

[cpt_azad]

May the children of Iraq forgive us, us as in the west. This is the darkest hour of humanity and America. I don't know how anyone could support this. Insurgents?? I proudly call these "insurgents" freedom fighters that will one day crush American Imperialism. I just saw on the news about how the "Iraqi Army" will help the Americans take Fallujah, fucking sick. Today, that's right, today, is the day I have lost any and all respect for America, including it's citizens. I will only tolerate them, not be friends for I know now what monsters truly lie beneath their skins. There is no excuse for re-electing a monster, no excuse what so ever because the monster won by a lot of votes. May god help us all, and may you American Citizens on here understand where I am coming from.

I know some of you on here don't support Bush or his "decisions" that are well American Citizens. Well, then let me just say, I don't consider you to be American at all because as of now, an American is a Killer. Hit me with all you got j2 and manny.

[ruthie]

May the children of Iraq forgive us, us as in the west. This is the darkest hour of humanity and America. I don't know how anyone could support this. Insurgents?? I proudly call these "insurgents" freedom fighters that will one day crush American Imperialism. I just saw on the news about how the "Iraqi Army" will help the Americans take Fallujah, fucking sick. Today, that's right, today, is the day I have lost any and all respect for America, including it's citizens. I will only tolerate them, not be friends for I know now what monsters truly lie beneath their skins. There is no excuse for re-electing a monster, no excuse what so ever because the monster won by a lot of votes. May god help us all, and may you American Citizens on here understand where I am coming from.

I know some of you on here don't support Bush or his "decisions" that are well American Citizens. Well, then let me just say, I don't consider you to be American at all because as of now, an American is a Killer. Hit me with all you got j2 and manny.

you have expressed what i feel and think..and i live here..my heart is breaking.

[Rat Faced]

Why cant i find any reorts from American papers about the 500 kids that were throwing stones at US Tanks? Not Sunni's, Shi'ites...

[Comic_Peddler]

an American is a Killer.

....umm, hmm, I did not vote for Bush, I am an American. I find your statement to be offensive and harrassing.

[cpt_azad]

....umm, hmm, I did not vote for Bush, I am an American. I find your statement to be offensive and harrassing.
well maybe you should read the last 2 lines of my post then, i don't consider YOU (the ones that didn't vote for Bush) to not be Americans at all, because from POV, an American right NOW is someone that supports what Bush is doing (because of the re-election, you cannot deny that more than 50% of Americans want him in power).

[Comic_Peddler]

well maybe you should read the last 2 lines of my post then, i don't consider YOU (the ones that didn't vote for Bush) to not be Americans at all, because from POV, an American right NOW is someone that supports what Bush is doing (because of the re-election, you cannot deny that more than 50% of Americans want him in power).

First of all, 55 million is far from half of America. Secondly, have you taken the time to interview everyone who voted for Bush? No? So essentially you are assuming a vote for Bush implied they neccessarily support war?

And if you do not "consider" me an American, what exactly do you "consider" me?

[Afronaut]

To call all Americans as a Killers/Terrorists/whatever, is as weak as to call all Muslims as Killers/Terrorist/whatever.

Dont fall for that please. Its just soooo lame.

[Everose]

First of all, 55 million is far from half of America. Secondly, have you taken the time to interview everyone who voted for Bush? No? So essentially you are assuming a vote for Bush implied they neccessarily support war?

And if you do not "consider" me an American, what exactly do you "consider" me?





And Me?

[Everose]

To call all Americans as a Killers/Terrorists/whatever, is as weak as to call all Muslims as Killers/Terrorist/whatever.

Dont fall for that please. Its just soooo lame.




Thank you. But I am not sure I would call it weak or lame. To me this is more disturbing. Kind of like another little Bush in the making. I am pretty concerned because what I have seen on this board often lately pretty well parallels the mindset of the Bush Administration after 9/11.

[thewizeard]

May the children of Iraq forgive us, us as in the west. This is the darkest hour of humanity and America. I don't know how anyone could support this. Insurgents?? I proudly call these "insurgents" freedom fighters that will one day crush American Imperialism. I just saw on the news about how the "Iraqi Army" will help the Americans take Fallujah, fucking sick. Today, that's right, today, is the day I have lost any and all respect for America, including it's citizens I will only tolerate them, not be friends for I know now what monsters truly lie beneath their skins. There is no excuse for re-electing a monster, no excuse what so ever because the monster won by a lot of votes. May god help us all, and may you American Citizens on here understand where I am coming from.

I know some of you on here don't support Bush or his "decisions" that are well American Citizens. Well, then let me just say, I don't consider you to be American at all because as of now, an American is a Killer. Hit me with all you got j2 and manny.

Do you also discriminate between "American citizens" and "native" American citizens?

[SeK612]

It is very worrying. The troops have the ability to smash the city apart. I really hope the don't. There is also no evidence this is going to work. If civilians are hurt, then the images beaming on the arab television networks will be of them and this will cause more anger toward the occupation, leading to more help to the insurgence and more deaths in Iraq.

I can see its a very difficult situation in Iraq but this really can't be the right way to about things :(

[Busyman]

May the children of Iraq forgive us, us as in the west. This is the darkest hour of humanity and America. I don't know how anyone could support this. Insurgents?? I proudly call these "insurgents" freedom fighters that will one day crush American Imperialism. I just saw on the news about how the "Iraqi Army" will help the Americans take Fallujah, fucking sick. Today, that's right, today, is the day I have lost any and all respect for America, including it's citizens. I will only tolerate them, not be friends for I know now what monsters truly lie beneath their skins. There is no excuse for re-electing a monster, no excuse what so ever because the monster won by a lot of votes. May god help us all, and may you American Citizens on here understand where I am coming from.

I know some of you on here don't support Bush or his "decisions" that are well American Citizens. Well, then let me just say, I don't consider you to be American at all because as of now, an American is a Killer. Hit me with all you got j2 and manny.
First off, in regards to your statement, GO FUCK YOURSELF!!

Now that that's out of the way, I believe Bush was elected because MCVIV.

I don't think a President can narrowly win the first time then prove he actually accomplishes nothing and really is a fuck up, and win by a bigger margin.

I believe we all here are Americans but I also believe the folks that voted for Bush are idiots and some just vote Republican no matter what.

If one can't point out the redeeming qualities of their candidate but then still vote for them just because then that person is an idiot.

A candidate that has resolve and conviction but is fucking up coupled with not thinking they've fucked up then they are destined to continue....FUCKING UP11!11!1

Oh but he's Christian, well so am I. :rolleyes:

[Biggles]

In this attack on Fallujah it is intended to use a fair number of Iraqi troops. Unfortunately about 60% of these are Kurds. If there is only one way to lay the seeds of a civil war this is cetainly a good candidate.

The previous attempt in April using Sunni troops failed as they refused to fight their kinsfolk.

Fallujah will fall just as Samara fell. Then the insurgents will go back to blowing everything up just they have in Samara. It has been argued that Fallujah is a nest for these people but according the Coaltion Fallujah has been buttoned up for months (or has it?) If not, I can see the big fish slipping the net again. If it has been buttoned up then it is clear that Fallujah is not essential to the insurgency but simply a thorn in the side of the Coalition because it is a no-go area.

The city will get pretty much wasted in the attack and hopefully most of the civilians are already out. The cost of rebuilding will simply be added to the growing tab we are running up over there.

[Smith]

May the children of Iraq forgive us, us as in the west. This is the darkest hour of humanity and America. I don't know how anyone could support this. Insurgents?? I proudly call these "insurgents" freedom fighters that will one day crush American Imperialism. I just saw on the news about how the "Iraqi Army" will help the Americans take Fallujah, fucking sick. Today, that's right, today, is the day I have lost any and all respect for America, including it's citizens. I will only tolerate them, not be friends for I know now what monsters truly lie beneath their skins. There is no excuse for re-electing a monster, no excuse what so ever because the monster won by a lot of votes. May god help us all, and may you American Citizens on here understand where I am coming from.

I know some of you on here don't support Bush or his "decisions" that are well American Citizens. Well, then let me just say, I don't consider you to be American at all because as of now, an American is a Killer. Hit me with all you got j2 and manny.


:crying:

well put

[cpt_azad]

okay okay, so I DID post on impulse upon hearing the news, I ask for "your" apology (your=offended by my post[s]).

[3RA1N1AC]

So essentially you are assuming a vote for Bush implied they neccessarily support war?
well... bush didn't exactly run his campaign on a lot of issues besides the war. i'd find it difficult to believe that people voted for bush on account of his brilliant economic policies, for instance. :D

he does have other traits that appeal to some voters, though. his "born again" social & religious ideals must count for a lot. and you can't misunderestimate his ability to out-bubba the previous prez & vice prez who for crying out loud were from arkansas and tennessee... but he's still blue blooded & out-of-touch enough to utter the occasional prince philip-ism ("do you have blacks there, too?"). his personality has widespread appeal to both old-boys and good-ol'-boys, i think.

[ruthie]

Well, it's a state of emergency there, and men between the ages of 15 and 55 haven't been allowed to leave the city. Must be cause they are "all insurgents".

[cpt_azad]

Well, it's a state of emergency there, and men between the ages of 15 and 55 haven't been allowed to leave the city. Must be cause they are "all insurgents".my point exactly, if you are there, you are an insurgent. but you say that they are all possible threats to the Americans. How exactly? you have no right to go marching into another sovereign nation and expect it no one to rebel. If i was there right now, id pick up a gun and fight along side them not because i hate Americans, but because I hate there policies and what they have become (govt, not civillian wise)

[ruthie]

I know what you mean. This is so frustrating. They will kill them all. If they see anyone in a car or on the street...they (the troops) will shoot.

[cpt_azad]

exactly, and their excuse?

a) Collateral Damage
b) Insurgents (this includes children btw)

take your pick. makes me want to puke :sick:

[Rat Faced]

American forces stormed into the outskirts of Fallujah early today, seizing the main city hospital and securing two key bridges over the Euphrates river.

It appeared to be the first stage of the long-expected assault on the Iraqi insurgent stronghold.

The US military reported its first casualties of the offensive – two Marines killed when their bulldozer flipped over into the Euphrates River.

An AC-130 gunship raked the city all night long with cannon fire as heavy explosions from US artillery continued into the morning. Four 500-pound bombs were dropped over Fallujah before dawn. Orange fireballs from high explosive airbursts could be seen above the rooftops.

American officials said the toughest fight was yet to come – when American forces enter the main part of the city on the east bank of the river, including the Jolan neighbourhood where insurgent defences are believed the strongest.

Two Marine brigades and an Army brigade are currently positioned north of the city.

By noon (0900 GMT) Marines fighting their way into the city secured an apartment building in the north-western corner of the city, said Marines Captain Brian Heatherman.

“The Marines have now gained a foothold in the city,” said Heatherman, 32.

The initial attacks on Fallujah began just hours after the Iraqi government declared 60 days of emergency rule throughout most of the country as militants dramatically escalated attacks, killing at least 30 people, including two Americans.

Several hundred Iraqi troops were sent into Fallujah’s main hospital after US forces sealed off the area. The troops detained about 50 men of military age inside the hospital, but about half were later released.

Many patients were herded into hallways and handcuffed until troops determined whether they were insurgents hiding in the hospital.

Hospital chief Dr Salih al-Issawi said he had asked US officers to allow doctors and ambulances go inside the main part of the city to help the wounded but they refused.

In an apparent reference to the Iraqi troops, Fallujah clerics issued a statement calling them the ”occupiers’ lash on their fellow countrymen.”

“This statement is our last threat to you. We swear by God that we will stand for you in the streets, we will enter your houses and we will slaughter you just like sheep,” the statement said.

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and others have warned that a military offensive could trigger a wave of violence that would sabotage the January elections by alienating Sunnis, who form the core of the insurgency. About 60% of Iraq’s 25 million people are Shiite.

The Association of Muslim Scholars, an influential Sunni clerics group condemned the assault on Fallujah.

“The attack on Fallujah is an illegal and illegitimate action against civilian and innocent people. We denounce this operation which will have a grave consequences on the situation in Iraq,” said spokesman Mohammed Bashar al-Faidhi.

As dawn broke, the roar of jet aircraft could be heard in Baghdad heading westward toward Fallujah.

Interim prime minister Ilyad Allawi said a state of emergency, which applies throughout the country except for Kurdish-ruled areas in the north, is a “very powerful message that we are serious” about reining in insurgents before elections set for late January.

“We want to secure the country so elections can be done in a peaceful way and the Iraqi people can participate in the elections freely, without the intimidation by terrorists and by forces who are trying to wreck the political process in Iraq,” he told reporters.

The emergency decree lays the groundwork for a severe crackdown in areas where guerrillas operate. Under the law, all traffic and men between the ages of 15 and 55 were banned from the streets of Fallujah and surrounding areas 24 hours a day.

All members of the Fallujah police and security services were suspended indefinitely and all roads into Fallujah and neighbouring Ramadi were closed indefinitely.

Source (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3730702)

Strange... it mentions a couple of US casualties that resulted from their vehicle overturning on the Bridge.

I wonder how many Iraqi casualties so far, resulting from 500Ib bombs being dropped on the city (including a Market) and other Airstrikes, Artillery and Gunships...

There again, maybe it doesnt matter in certain quarters:


Colonel Gary Brandl of the United States Marine Corps commented: "The enemy has a face. It is Satan's. He is in Fallujah, and we are going to destroy him."

I cant see the difference between Christian Fundamentalism and Islamic, personally...

Both groups are a bunch of ignorant biggots.

[SeK612]

The interim prime minister in Iraq has just given permission for the "International and Iraqi" troops to attack Fullujah...

[Rat Faced]

US troops have banned men aged from 15 to 50 from entering or leaving the Iraqi rebel-held city of Fallujah, warning they could become a target ahead of an expected military offensive.

Women and children will be allowed to leave the city but cannot return until "order is restored," the US military said.

"Attention, attention! All men aged between 15 and 50 are forbidden from entering or exiting (the area)," loudspeakers on top of US military vehicles declared in Arabic as they drove around the outskirts of the city.

"If they do, they will become a target," the military warned. "Only women and children are allowed to leave on condition that they do not return until order is restored."

Source (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1237373.htm)

Looks like all men are targets no matter what....

From the Black Watch Post:



On the ground, a marine commander told his young crew they were headed for victory if they entered the Sunni Muslim bastion, west of Baghdad.

"You will be making history," Major General Richard Natonski said.

"Forty years from now, 100 years from now, they will be talking about the battle of Fallujah."

Another commander was more wary, ordering his men to be on constant alert.

"If someone raises their hands in surrender, what are you going to do? Shoot him," Colonel Michael Shupp said.

"Why? Because of the threat of suicide bombers."

Soldiers and marines are psyched and ready for action after the rallying words from their commanders.

[cpt_azad]

I cant see the difference between Christian Fundamentalism and Islamic, personally...

Both groups are a bunch of ignorant biggots.

Agreed.


"If someone raises their hands in surrender, what are you going to do? Shoot him," Colonel Michael Shupp said.

"Why? Because of the threat of suicide bombers."


Hmmm, justification that what American Soldiers "will" be doing might be genocide and terrorism. But then again they're safe, because America is not on the ICC's list.

[ruthie]

At the hospital they went into last night, first they said they killed 38 "insurgents". then they said they captured them, handcuffed prisoners, I mean patients inthe hallway, etc. Now they (the US) is saying the "insurgents" are going to use civilians THEY (the "insurgents") didn't let leave the city as human shields and claim the troops killed them.
I say bullshit. I expect to hear the US say that's what's going to happen, since they don't count civilian death anyway..yeah, that's the ticket...let's say the "insurgents" kill them. I believe almost nothing from our gov't. of liars.

[SeK612]

Reuters are reporting that the full scale assault on Fallujah is underway. Reports here are saying that a combination of detanations to tackle the road side bombs and traps left for the advancing army, air attacks and a mass move of infantry and tanks is taking place as the assult gets underway.

[DanB]

Is it only me that finds it slightly disturbing that you can go and watch it lve on the news channels? :unsure:

I mean I remember watching 'Shock & Awe' kick off Friday evening down the pub after work :dry:

[ruthie]

Well, remember..they pick and choose what they "let" us see. I heard one guy on CNN state suddenly..um, there could be 10,000 insurgent.
Um, last night they said 2-3000. Prime example of covering one's ass to hide the amount of civilian casualties.

[DanB]

The figure I keep hearing on the telly is 6000 but I guess it never hurts to inflate it a bit.



Bit off topic but has anyone seen the Voices of Iraq film? Where they gave 150 vidoe cameras to Iraqi people?

[spinningfreemanny]

sorry for the delayed "hit", as it were. My computer effectively blew up and after a reformat; I am now in disabled, but working, form.

Just a question...

For those of you here who, now that we are in Iraq, believe that the only thing to do otherwise is to leave a stable democratic country; what are the options for a city such as Fallujah? If you do not hold belief to that stated above; I know your answer so don't feel the need to respond.

Though amittedly, I have not had the time to ponder such things, I think that the most effective option was to clear Fallujah 7 months ago; that would have been far less costly then currently, But I think that the election delayed such action from occuring. Sad. Your thoughts...

[Rat Faced]

It wasnt politically possible 7 month ago...

1/ Coz of the hundreds of Civilian Deaths that occured.

2/ The mass desertion of the Iraqi Forces that were supporting, due to the above. Leaving the US as basically bombing the crap out of the city by itself.

3/ The huge increase of Resistance Fighters all over Iraq when you were attacking one of the most holy Islamic cities there is, which basically would have fucked up Bush's election hopes.


In your administration's opinion, the most important... number 3/ has now been cleared up, and they dont give a shit about the other 2 reasons.

[Rat Faced]

PENTAGON (AP) - The Pentagon says the past two days of fighting in Iraq have claimed 14 American lives.

Yesterday's count of eleven dead is the highest one-day total in more than a-half year. Officials say most of those deaths came in a wave of attacks in Baghdad and southwest of Fallujah.

Iraq's interim prime minister has declared a nighttime curfew in Baghdad and its surroundings. This, a day after a string of insurgent attacks in Baghdad that killed nine Iraqis and wounded more than 80.

US soldiers in central Fallujah

PENTAGON (AP) - American soldiers are in the heart of Fallujah.

Officials say some of the troops are engaging clusters of guerrilla fighters while still others are going house-to-house, looking for insurgents and weapons.

Pentagon offcials say the fighting has been lighter than expected in the northwest part of Fallujah, a location that's been a insurgent stronghold for months.

That may not be a good thing, though.

Some defense officials are taking that as a sign that significant numbers of insurgents have left Fallujah, with plans to fight another day in another location.

There are new reports that hundreds of guerrillas are roaming the streets of nearby Ramadi, in hoods and masks brandishing weapons.

Clerics call for Iraqi elections boycott

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Sunni Muslim clerics are calling for a boycott of Iraq's national elections in January.

It's intended to protest the US-led offensive in Fallujah.

The secretary-general of the Association of Muslim Scholars says the election would be held "over the corpses of those killed in Fallujah and the blood of the wounded."

The group had threatened before to call for a boycott if an all-out assault on Fallujah took place.

The boycott is unlikely to gain much support among the majority Shiite population. Shiites make up about 60 percent of all Iraqis.

US officials and others fear, though, that a lack of Sunni participation could raise questions about the vote's legitimacy.

Source (http://www.ktvotv3.com/Global/story.asp?S=2540951&nav=1LFsSuzb)

[ruthie]

Unconfirmed reports of 35 US troops captured in fallujh.. source (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/08/content_2191504.htm)

[ruthie]

Pentagon reports 6 US troops dead, 10 wounded.

[DanB]

Unconfirmed reports of 35 US troops captured in fallujh.. source (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-11/08/content_2191504.htm)


I heard that earlier but didn't give it much credit

[ruthie]

me either, not at this point.

[DanB]

me either, not at this point.


I'd have thought they would probably have preffered to go out fighting than be taken prisoner too :unsure:


I hope its not true anyway

[ruthie]

Now they are saying 11 dead troops..yesterday.

[DanB]

Yeah I heard about that, Black Watch took casulties yesterday too.

Unfortunately I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet either.

[ruthie]

up to 16...wonder when the count will accurate.

[Rat Faced]

2 Helicopters down now..

[hobbes]

People are dying in battle?

I've never heard of such a thing!

Will there be more?

[bryanskrantz]

first of all I don't belive they should've went to Iraq in the first place. Bush's father believed that if they did exactly what GW has done there would be civil war so he stopped sadaam's military power and his economic power. he did not want to risk the civil war thats happining now. I also belive that with this war its going to make America's foreign relations even worse. I understand he wanted saddam out of power but what I don't understand is how ANYONE can just say this is a freedom war. NOT an occupation is beyond me.

[ruthie]

We read this blog alot. Riverbend writes it, and it gives you a different perspective.
Here is an entry from her blog. the blog is called Baghdad Burning.

Saturday, November 13, 2004

Murder...
People in Falloojeh are being murdered. The stories coming back are horrifying. People being shot in cold blood in the streets and being buried under tons of concrete and iron... where is the world? Bury Arafat and hurry up and pay attention to what's happening in Iraq.

They say the people have nothing to eat. No produce is going into the city and the water has been cut off for days and days. Do you know what it's like to have no clean water??? People are drinking contaminated water and coming down with diarrhoea and other diseases. There are corpses in the street because no one can risk leaving their home to bury people. Families are burying children and parents in the gardens of their homes. WHERE IS EVERYONE???

Furthermore, where is Sistani? Why isn't he saying anything about the situation? When the South was being attacked, Sunni clerics everywhere decried the attacks. Where is Sistani now, when people are looking to him for some reaction? The silence is deafening.

We're not leaving the house lately. There was a total of 8 hours of electricity today and we've been using the generator sparingly because there is a mysterious fuel shortage... several explosions were heard in different places.

Things are deteriorating swiftly.

More on Falloojeh crisis here:

Aid agencies say Falluja "big disaster"... (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=620124&section=news)
Eyewitness: Smoke and Corpses (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4004873.stm)...

Iraqis will never forgive this- never. It's outrageous- it's genocide and America, with the help and support of Allawi, is responsible. May whoever contributes to this see the sorrow, terror and misery of the people suffering in Falloojeh.


- posted by river @ 1:30 AM

[DanB]

I've read that blog for quite a while now too

[Biggles]

Whilst the shooting of wounded and immobile enemy is not a new a thing it does not make for edifying TV. Quite why the US Marines thought this would make good Newsreel for the embedded reporters is quite beyond me. However, it is now out there and is no doubt getting extensive re-plays on Arabic news channels.

I rather though the idea of going into Falujah was to reduce the insurgent threat not increase it.

It is also remarkable, considering there was a ring of steel around the place for weeks, how many insurgents seem to have slipped out.

I believe Rumsfeld promised that as soon as the fighting was over a huge rebuilding task would be initiated to win over the hearts and minds of the locals (and give them somewhere to live) it will be interesting to see if this happens as little has been achieved to date elsewhere.

[ruthie]

This is from swissinfo.org


U.S. stops aid convoy entering Falluja today

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - An Iraqi Red Crescent aid convoy waiting at the edge of Falluja will not be allowed to enter the city centre on
Sunday, a U.S. Marine officer says.

"They will not be allowed to cross the bridge today," Captain Adam Collier told Reuters at Falluja hospital, where the convoy is waiting to
cross the Euphrates river into the main part of the embattled Iraqi city. He cited security reasons.

The Iraqi Red Crescent sent seven trucks and ambulances to Falluja on Saturday, hoping to get food, blankets, water purification tables and
medicine to hundreds of families trapped inside the city during the past six days of fighting.

To enter the city proper, the convoy will have to pass over one of two bridges spanning the Euphrates. U.S. forces have said that those
bridges remain unsafe, even though the military has said it has taken almost full control of Falluja.

"We don't know when the bridge will be open for civilian traffic," Collier said.

Red Crescent officials, who are also trying to get aid to thousands of families who fled Falluja ahead of the offensive and are now sheltering
in nearby towns and villages, said they would wait in Falluja's hospital until they can go in.

"We will wait for permission and we will stay here tonight," Jamal al-Karbouli, the leader of the convoy, said.

Those trapped inside the city, whose population was put at about 300,000 before the offensive but has fallen to around 60,000 according to
some estimates, say they are reaching a point of desperation.

"Our situation is very hard," said one resident contacted by telephone in the central Hay al-Dubat neighbourhood. "We don't have food or
water. My seven children all have severe diarrhoea.

[hobbes]

It is a really tough situation all around.

Women and children can't leave because they would be shot by the insurgents. After all, they are their best shields.

Men cannot leave because if the insurgents don't kill them, the marines will.

Food and water could be delivered, but who do you think would get it?

[ruthie]

This is difficult to write, as I don't know where to really begin, and words cannot express what I feel in my heart...other then my heart bleeds for Iraq. Today, the news was a Marine shot a wounded Iraqi in the head (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6820203). I guess Bush isn't worried since he is appointing Gonzales (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=581582) to the post of Attorney General...you know, the man who said the Geneva Convention was pretty much irrelevant. There are reports of dead civilians all over Fallujah (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1115-01.htm), unable to be buried. Why? When people try to retrieve the bodies, they are shot at. There have been burials in yards. There have been reports of dogs eating the bodies (http://electroniciraq.net/news/1714.shtml) of the dead. The US refuses to let aid trucks into Fallujah (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7D9D45C5-DD8A-4F6C-9A19-A7EF943DCF38.htm). They need food, water, and medical help, which is all being denied. In fact, the US military says there is no need for aid (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,11389376%255E401,00.html)..there aren't any civilians in Fallujah. I guess that's because so many of them have been killed. It is incomprehensible to me that these blatant crimes are being commited against the Iraqi people.

I would like to know how the media dares to not report the truth, show pictures, film the streets strewn with the dead. Americans should see it on all the newscasts...the truth. America should be held accountable for war crimes, as many have been/are being commited.

The violence will continue, the silence will continue, the lies will continue, and the disgrace of America will never be forgotten...

[Riordan]

I'm not sure if you are aware that there was a half a year warning period for those civilians to get the hell out of there? Assistance provided. :frusty:

No... of course not. Not that it would matter, you'd rather 10,000,000 civilian iraqis die by their own horrid leader then the evil doers and couple thousand civilians, right? :rolleyes:

Why don't you go complain about cigarettes? They kill more innocent civilians then any american military can kill, and not to mention they are more evil. While you're at it, complain about countries that actually have big issues, like China.

The only reason Iraqis can drive, use cell phones, drink clean water, eat, and enjoy themselves is because of us. Isnt it amaizing how Iraq is the only other country that would have re-elected president Bush? :blink:

[ruthie]

Evil doers?

[scroff]

I'm not sure if you are aware that there was a half a year warning period for those civilians to get the hell out of there? Assistance provided.:frusty: Warning? You mean like "Get the hell out of there, 'cause we're going to level your city!" Like that? Where were they going to go? Ramallah? Baghdad? I know, how about Iran and Syria!

I wonder how many of the people they call "insurgents" were just people who want to defend their home from the "liberators"?

"Look at all these dead insurgents!"
"How can you tell they're insurgents?"
"Well, jeez, that's a stupid question... they're dead!":lol:


No... of course not. Not that it would matter, you'd rather 10,000,000 civilian iraqis die by their own horrid leader then the evil doers and couple thousand civilians, right? :rolleyes: I'd really like to see a citation for that 10,000,000 number, please. Are you aware that most of the deaths that did occur under Hussein occured under the US Presidents Reagan and Bush? That Rumsfeld even knew it was going on but said nothing at the time? No... of course not.:w00t:


Why don't you go complain about cigarettes? They kill more innocent civilians then any american military can kill, and not to mention they are more evil. While you're at it, complain about countries that actually have big issues, like China.People have a choice to smoke, they don't have much of a choice being born Iraqi. When people start tying folks up and stuffing cigarettes in their mouths, I'll complain about cigarettes. :rolleyes:

Are you referring to the same China with which Bush is so eager to do business that he sent Powell there to reassure them that we won't support sovereignty in Taiwan? That China? So much for spreading democracy, eh? :whistling


The only reason Iraqis can drive, use cell phones, drink clean water, eat, and enjoy themselves is because of us. Isnt it amaizing how Iraq is the only other country that would have re-elected president Bush? :blink: Um, the Iraqis haven't had a whole lot of clean water lately, or electricity, or, I would guess, enjoyment either... the country is in the throes of a war. :blushing:

I'd also like to see a citation for that Iraqi vote, too, please. Last I heard, "according to a mid-October survey conducted by Baghdad's Center for Research and Strategic Studies, about 21 percent of Iraqis polled favor John Kerry for president. Some 17 percent want four more years of Bush. But, with a built-in four percent margin of error, the two candidates might well be in a dead heat in Iraq, too. Over 60% don't care one way or another because they don't think it matters all that much for them.:1eye:

Btw, before you hear it from sombody else... I'm ruthies ol' man, we have a sickening agenda, a propagandist site, and uh, oh yea, welcome to the forum...

[cpt_azad]

amen scroff :) good post. for all those that think the iraqi's love you guys for supposedly liberating them, well then, why not go to Iraq and accept their humble opinions.

[Riordan]

Warning? You mean like "Get the hell out of there, 'cause we're going to level your city!" Like that? Where were they going to go? Ramallah? Baghdad? I know, how about Iran and Syria!



Yes, that's correct. Where are they are going to go? Simple... To a safer city the US military has occupied.


I wonder how many of the people they call "insurgents" were just people who want to defend their home from the "liberators"?

"Look at all these dead insurgents!"
"How can you tell they're insurgents?"
"Well, jeez, that's a stupid question... they're dead!"


I'm not even sure how to approach your flawed propogated logic.
Lets see if we can over over a little scenario.

You have a massive army that comes to your city and says to you, anyone that wants to leave can leave right now. You will be able to come back to your homes and we will rebuild your city. Insurgents (TERRORISTS) will be killed.

So, you have this option to NOT die, yet, you're telling me, they want to stay and fight for... what reason?

The reason they gave so much opportunity for them to leave is that, as a military, you can't go into a heated warzone like fallujah and knock on every door, and check to see if they are civilians. The tactics of the terrorists are to look like civilians, then popup and shoot our men. They pretend to be the wounded, the weak, the scared, and then simply pop up and kill us. So, what do you do?

All the civilians have already left the city, the only people left are the evil insurgents (and the hostages that they didn't let leave,that don't want to fight) that want to fight to kill the Americans. All the people that want to leave, live, and come back to their new city without terrorists, have done so.


I'd really like to see a citation for that 10,000,000 number, please. Are you aware that most of the deaths that did occur under Hussein occured under the US Presidents Reagan and Bush? That Rumsfeld even knew it was going on but said nothing at the time? No... of course not.



Over the many years of Sadaam's rule, he had many, many, many rape/torture rooms. The towers that surrounded the towns would rain bullets over the people, killing many, all for fun. Sadaam's children would ruin weddings, rape the wives, and kill the husband. There were factories with mounds and mounds of bones burried and piled everywhere. You act like you would make it ok with the war if they went in there sooner. If they went in there sooner like your complaining, you'd be spouting the same damn anti-american crap I hear everywhere. Lets ask ourselves, why did it take so long anyway? Diplomacy, thats why. More then 12 years of diplomacy that the security council of the UN (which most, if not all, had illegal food for oil contracts with Iraq) houded for and wanted more of. America's fault? Hardly.


People have a choice to smoke, they don't have much of a choice being born Iraqi. When people start tying folks up and stuffing cigarettes in their mouths, I'll complain about cigarettes.



People have a choice to leave or stay in the city and die. Now lets say staying in the city is not smoking, and staying is smoking. Smoke a cigarette, you're hooked until it kills you. Some get away and don't die. Same with falluja. The only difference is that cigarettes kill more people a day then have died in this war. Let's not forget that cigarette companies pound lots of advertising, and theres also that peer pressure thing.




Um, the Iraqis haven't had a whole lot of clean water lately, or electricity, or, I would guess, enjoyment either... the country is in the throes of a war.

Uh, wrong. There are a lot of places we have rebuilt/or are rebuilding in which they have a lot of that. Places where schools are up and running and everything is loppipops and rainbows, which I know you like. The only damage being done is from the 'innocent insurgents' blowing up civilians and killing the US marines every now and then (which isn't everywhere now, mind you)



I'd also like to see a citation for that Iraqi vote, too, please. Last I heard, "according to a mid-October survey conducted by Baghdad's Center for Research and Strategic Studies, about 21 percent of Iraqis polled favor John Kerry for president. Some 17 percent want four more years of Bush. But, with a built-in four percent margin of error, the two candidates might well be in a dead heat in Iraq, too. Over 60% don't care one way or another because they don't think it matters all that much for them.

I'm having troubles finding it right now, it's lost underneath all the 'AMERICANS SHOULD DIE' crap on the internet. I'll get it sometime later today though, I have school soon and such, so I'll have to dig it up when I can.


Btw, before you hear it from sombody else... I'm ruthies ol' man, we have a sickening agenda, a propagandist site, and uh, oh yea, welcome to the forum...

Thanks :P .

[Rat Faced]

Yes, that's correct. Where are they are going to go? Simple... To a safer city the US military has occupied.

And what about all the males between 15 and 55 that were being turned back into the city by the US military? What were they supposed to do?


I'm not even sure how to approach your flawed propogated logic.
Lets see if we can over over a little scenario.

You have a massive army that comes to your city and says to you, anyone that wants to leave can leave right now. You will be able to come back to your homes and we will rebuild your city. Insurgents (TERRORISTS) will be killed.

So, you have this option to NOT die, yet, you're telling me, they want to stay and fight for... what reason?

D'oh... Coz all Males between 15-55 were turned back by the Military, and some Wives/Daughters wouldnt leave their families if the could. Why are you trying to judge, yet again, someone elses beliefs in terms of your own? In addition the insurgents were putting a lot of pressure on some not to leave.

The reason they gave so much opportunity for them to leave is that, as a military, you can't go into a heated warzone like fallujah and knock on every door, and check to see if they are civilians. The tactics of the terrorists are to look like civilians, then popup and shoot our men. They pretend to be the wounded, the weak, the scared, and then simply pop up and kill us. So, what do you do?

All the civilians have already left the city, the only people left are the evil insurgents (and the hostages that they didn't let leave,that don't want to fight) that want to fight to kill the Americans. All the people that want to leave, live, and come back to their new city without terrorists, have done so.

Except they arent, are they? Unless every Male that was an inhabitant of the city between 15-55 are evil. D'oh


Over the many years of Sadaam's rule, he had many, many, many rape/torture rooms. The towers that surrounded the towns would rain bullets over the people, killing many, all for fun. Sadaam's children would ruin weddings, rape the wives, and kill the husband. There were factories with mounds and mounds of bones burried and piled everywhere. You act like you would make it ok with the war if they went in there sooner. If they went in there sooner like your complaining, you'd be spouting the same damn anti-american crap I hear everywhere. Lets ask ourselves, why did it take so long anyway? Diplomacy, thats why. More then 12 years of diplomacy that the security council of the UN (which most, if not all, had illegal food for oil contracts with Iraq) houded for and wanted more of. America's fault? Hardly.

Last point... Saddam, in all his years, never managed to kill as many people there as the UK/US have since Desert Storm. Both Directly by bombing, and indirectly through the targets of those bombs (Such as Water Purification Plants), Depleted Uranium used during Desert Storm and the denial of Basic Medical Supplies to treat the above and the more common Diseases and Injuries that strike in this type of country.

People have a choice to leave or stay in the city and die. Now lets say staying in the city is not smoking, and staying is smoking. Smoke a cigarette, you're hooked until it kills you. Some get away and don't die. Same with falluja. The only difference is that cigarettes kill more people a day then have died in this war. Let's not forget that cigarette companies pound lots of advertising, and theres also that peer pressure thing.

They havent got a choice. They cant Leave..and the US wont allow the supplies in.. some are now Starving to death... not their fault.


Uh, wrong. There are a lot of places we have rebuilt/or are rebuilding in which they have a lot of that. Places where schools are up and running and everything is loppipops and rainbows, which I know you like. The only damage being done is from the 'innocent insurgents' blowing up civilians and killing the US marines every now and then (which isn't everywhere now, mind you)

Then why is insurgency RISING instead of FALLING?

I'm having troubles finding it right now, it's lost underneath all the 'AMERICANS SHOULD DIE' crap on the internet. I'll get it sometime later today though, I have school soon and such, so I'll have to dig it up when I can.


Thanks :P .

Enjoy school....

[lynx]

"Look at all these dead insurgents!"
"How can you tell they're insurgents?"
"Well, jeez, that's a stupid question... they're dead!""This one's still breathing."
"He's bluffing - he's already dead". :blink:
BANG
"Well, he's dead now".

[spinningfreemanny]

"This one's still breathing."
"He's bluffing - he's already dead". :blink:
BANG
"Well, he's dead now".

No matter that the terrorist regularly boobytrap near dead bodies so the near dead can blow up on command... I can see why he was shot.

EDIT: I'm insinuating that you are referring to the young marine who shot the wounded Iraqi in a mosque.

[bigboab]

Apparently the US soldier had been wounded a couple of days prior. I can fully understand the situation. The kid should not have been put in this situation so soon.:(

[Rat Faced]

Im just waiting for more women to be taken by the insurgents, and then kids...

Their own have been killed afterall, yet they've stuck to men and one woman :dry:

[Rick Phlegm]

Im just waiting for more women to be taken by the insurgents, and then kids...

Their own have been killed afterall, yet they've stuck to men and one woman :dry:
I hope you're not suggesting that the war justifies kidnap and murder... :unsure:

[vidcc]

No matter that the terrorist regularly boobytrap near dead bodies so the near dead can blow up on command... I can see why he was shot.

EDIT: I'm insinuating that you are referring to the young marine who shot the wounded Iraqi in a mosque.
doesn't make it right.... does it ?.

[vidcc]

i can see how Riordan thinks purely based on his use of the word "terrorist" to describe the native fighters

[Biggles]

I'm not sure if you are aware that there was a half a year warning period for those civilians to get the hell out of there? Assistance provided. :frusty:

No... of course not. Not that it would matter, you'd rather 10,000,000 civilian iraqis die by their own horrid leader then the evil doers and couple thousand civilians, right? :rolleyes:

Why don't you go complain about cigarettes? They kill more innocent civilians then any american military can kill, and not to mention they are more evil. While you're at it, complain about countries that actually have big issues, like China.

The only reason Iraqis can drive, use cell phones, drink clean water, eat, and enjoy themselves is because of us. Isnt it amaizing how Iraq is the only other country that would have re-elected president Bush? :blink:

This is, presumably, an impressionistic posting? :blink:

10,000,000? That is damn near 40% of the population. Where in the blue blazes does this nonsense come from? Or has a zero inadvertantly slipped in at the end? :dry:

Although it is true that the best cell phones are from Finland - you are Finnish right?

[Biggles]

doesn't make it right.... does it ?.

Having seen the clip a couple of times it would seem to me that the young soldier simply snapped. The unit leader was explaining to the cameraman that these were a few wounded insurgents that were awaiting collection when he started raving and cursing about one of them breathing. The other soldiers appeared dumb struck as he simply raised his gun and shot the man. The NBC crew (and the Iraqi insurgents) were gifted a scoop.

I don't believe it was cold blooded murder, I think the boy cracked.

[Rat Faced]

I hope you're not suggesting that the war justifies kidnap and murder... :unsure:

No.

The killing of any innocent is never justified, and 2 wrongs do not make a right it merely increases the problem.

I'm just putting myself in their shoes... we killed 1000's of their innocents; men, women and children... so far (until the last week or so) they have only taken men. Now a woman... how long before kids?

[bigboab]

Could someone please explain something to me. During the second world war the French resistance were 'Freedom Fighters' yet the Iraqis who are trying to get rid of invaders are 'Insurgents'.

[Rick Phlegm]

No.

The killing of any innocent is never justified, and 2 wrongs do not make a right it merely increases the problem.

I'm just putting myself in their shoes... we killed 1000's of their innocents; men, women and children... so far (until the last week or so) they have only taken men. Now a woman... how long before kids?
They probably have done.

It's not just American soldiers that kill civilians in battle.

But I'm glad that's not what you were implying. Misinterpreted the wording of the post.

[Rat Faced]

Could someone please explain something to me. During the second world war the French resistance were 'Freedom Fighters' yet the Iraqis who are trying to get rid of invaders are 'Insurgents'.

Its because there are two seperate groups bigboab..

Resistance Fighters; with whom i have every sympathy.

Terrorists; that have nothing to do with Iraq, other than its a nice new battlefield to exploit and gain infamy from and no one other than people of their beliefs have any sympathy for...


So they use the word "insurgents" to cover basically anyone that gets shot that isnt in uniform... helps cover up how many civilians are killed too :dry:

[Biggles]

Could someone please explain something to me. During the second world war the French resistance were 'Freedom Fighters' yet the Iraqis who are trying to get rid of invaders are 'Insurgents'.

Boab it is a halfway house.

Might be stretching it to call them all terrorists but Freedom Fighters sticks in the craw. :)

[spinningfreemanny]

No... of course not. Not that it would matter, you'd rather 10,000,000 civilian iraqis die by their own horrid leader then the evil doers and couple thousand civilians, right?

If you read close, he does not insinuate that this has happened...

It is a hypothetical situation to explain one's mindset. Surely the well read posters here could identify such.

[Biggles]

If you read close, he does not insinuate that this has happened...

It is a hypothetical situation to explain one's mindset. Surely the well read posters here could identify such.

Indeed, which is why I called it impressionistic. It is still 40% of the population though and consequently hyperbole.

Edit: although there is nothing wrong with a bit of hyperbole now and then. :whistling

[Riordan]

Given the following: The USA is establishing democracy in the middle east to rid of the Muslim extremists and make a more functioning world.
Good ol' imperialism.

Now, depending on what you believe, here are the paths that the world can go down.

The USA and Co. 'destroy' the Middle East and establish a 'working' democracy with many casualties, innocent and not. (Obviously supra-simplified)

You do nothing, perhaps pander to Muslim extremism, and it grows like a fire and they get nuclear weapons. WWIII, hundred million die.

You do nothing, Muslim extremism doesn't grow, and it stays exactly like it is as a stone age Flintstone land.

You 'talk' it over with them, and they agree to become noble civilized functioning societies.

-- Here's my conclusion. Talking never works with extremists, a good example of this is most of the people on the board. Have you ever seen anyone with far left or right views ever completely switch over to the other side? I haven't, not even close to it. Add in the personality trait 'they want to kill you' and it becomes less likely.

Pandering to extremists gives you Hitler, not a good situation. Many more people die then they need to and EVERYONE is forced into war.

Them not growing and not pursuing their ideals is almost fictional. I think statistically (looking at it from a past point of view) it's an astronomical improbability, considering their extremist views.

The first option isn't nice either, but IMO it's the best route. Not that it's good or anything, but you really have to pick the less of the evils. Of course people are going to die, but trying to stop the first option is really just pushing the problem forward then backward.

Anyone else have scenarios? Feel free to add or edit.
I'm always seeing people fighting about what's happening, instead of giving alternate routes and possibilities.

[bigboab]

If you cant change an extremists view how can you force democracy on them?:(

[Biggles]

It really depends on what you are talking about.

The Taliban were an example of Year One Pol Pot style radicalism. They were, however, unique in the ME which is why Bin Laden called it the one true Islamic State.

However, to describe all the Middle East countries as back to the stone age is wildly far from the mark. The Middle East culture is different, but they are not artless savages. Cities like Riyadh and Dubai are as modern and as wealthy as any in the world. By and large these are not poor countries although like everywhere there are poor people in them.

The culture of the Middle East is traditional Monarchy. The radicals would like to depose the Monarchs and institute Islamic Republics with Governments that are elected but with limitations on the kind of politicians that can stand. Iran is an example of this with The Shah deposed back in the 1970s.

The Ba'athists and similar were opposed to the Monarchs and radical Islam and in places like Iraq, Syria, Algeria, Libya, and Egypt set up left wing secular governments with the support of Russia. During the Cold War much was done to undermine these counties because they were in the wrong camp. Bin Laden was trained and funded by Britain and the US because he opposed the Russian support of the Afghan communist government.

In short, the Middle East - which was for centuries relatively peaceful - was stirred up through a mixture of the Palestinian issue and support for a radicalism that unsettled those that were on the other side of the Cold War divide. That these people have turned on everyone is not surprising - they are zealots.

My view is that this cannot be resolved by quick fixes or down the barrel of a gun. The ME needs stability not turmoil. It will be the radicals who have most to gain from turmoil. In my view parts of the ME would, if not constantly trying to put out fires, have developed into some form of Constitutional Monarchy whilst others would have started with Islamic Republics which would have softened their stance as time passed and international trade developed. Iran might not be as Liberal as California but it is a lot freer than it was under the Aytollahs 20 years ago. One cannot impose Californian style freedoms overnight on an ancient and conservative culture.

Much is being invested in the hope that Iraq will show a beacon of light in the region after it has elections. However, the S. American experience has shown that it often takes several starts with the odd spasms of dictatorship before anything substantial develops in a country forged out of nothing. We cannot be there with a gun every time the wheels fall off.

Pakistan already has nuclear weapons and I suspect Iran does too. The stalemate between India and Pakistan shows that they understand MAD as well as anyone and I see nothing to suggest that a similar stalemate will not occur between Israel and Iran. Indeed, such a stalemate might restore a bit of peace and dignity in the area and allow space for more meaningful negotiations.

In short, I think we need to take careful and measured steps assisting where we can and have the sense to know what the limits are. This is not a race.

[lynx]

No matter that the terrorist regularly boobytrap near dead bodies so the near dead can blow up on command... I can see why he was shot.

EDIT: I'm insinuating that you are referring to the young marine who shot the wounded Iraqi in a mosque.Seems some people will always find a reason to excuse murder.

[vidcc]

Apparently the US soldier had been wounded a couple of days prior. I can fully understand the situation. The kid should not have been put in this situation so soon.:(
This sounds so familiar..... Wasn't that what Kerry said about Vietnam (or words close)... he was branded a traitor and accused of insulting all the vets.

[spinningfreemanny]

So who shall die? a squad of marines or a terrorist? protecting one's self is not murder. I don't consider insurgents killing marines murder; it's warfare.

happy birthday, BTW, hope your having a ball :)

[Rat Faced]

So..

when is Riordan planning on going into the Utah and the Bible Belt.. ?

The Churches tell em which way to vote there dun they? :whistling

[scroff]

It really depends on what you are talking about.... This is not a race.
http://www.anywhichway.net/images/smiles/imnotworthy.gif

[Rat Faced]

So who shall die? a squad of marines or a terrorist? protecting one's self is not murder. I don't consider insurgents killing marines murder; it's warfare.

happy birthday, BTW, hope your having a ball :)

Exactly why i dont see insurgents killing Marines as murder.. its warfare. (Unless they are injured and have already surrendered etc)

[scroff]

So who shall die? a squad of marines or a terrorist? protecting one's self is not murder. I don't consider insurgents killing marines murder; it's warfare.
No one was protecting themselves. The "insurgent" was already half dead and captured. This isn't a firefight, it's killing a pow.

The kid lost his shit and killed a pow. Sometimes the line between right and wrong gets very fuzzy when you're asked to kill most anything that moves within a city. It's called a free fire zone, and it's against the Geneva Conventions, as is killing pows.

The kid will probably be messed up about this for a very long time, he shouldn't have been back, but then, we shouldn't be in there should we?

[Biggles]

Exactly why i dont see insurgents killing Marines as murder.. its warfare. (Unless they are injured and have already surrendered etc)

Likewise, having already been detained and awaiting collection and then being shot in front of a camera while someone is demonstrating to an embedded reporter how prisoners are humanely dealt with. :ermm:

Manny have you seen this clip? The boy sounded stressed and on the edge.

Of course crap things happen during Wars (although technically GW ended the War May 03), this one is just not a good thing to have happen at this juncture. Instead of calming the situation it has merely inflamed it.

[spinningfreemanny]

I have just seen the clip...yes he does indeed seem stressed...
The squad, though, was on the move, actively looking for insurgents thought to have retook the mosque. I can see how one can percive him as a threat; especially if insurgents were thought to be there reciently to arm him with explosives (as they are known to do and have done).

Now, ultimately, I don't think that its right that he shot him, and with a camera being there, no less, but I can see why he did it and I am not too sure I can say I wouldn't do the same thing myself in his situation.

[Rat Faced]

Just like i cant say that i wouldnt be shooting Marines, in their situation..

[spinningfreemanny]

I can: I don't think I would believe in the insurgent's cause; instead opting for a free democratic Iraq.


Who knows though, I'm not Iraqi...

[Rat Faced]

Ah, so your less a Resistance Fighter, and more of a Collaborator... gotcha :whistling

[Rat Faced]

ALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 15 - When the owners of one house near the farthest southern boundary of this city return, they will find a crater 40 feet across and 8 feet deep, with one wall still standing and recognizable pieces of a ceiling strewn beside it. A broken kebab stand, its canopy collapsed, its two wheels exposed, leans over crazily into one lip of the crater.

The entire street in this district looks about the same. On Monday morning, after they had seemingly been crushed the day before, insurgents began firing from windows, bunkers and piles of rubble, setting off a five-hour gun battle. The street, once flat, has been hit with so many 500-pound bombs that it looks like the zone of collision between oceanic ice sheets, with huge dips and shelves of pavement and soil


Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/international/middleeast/16scene.html)

Who are they supposed to build trust with?

How many families in this city, will not have lost loved ones to american bombs?

Way to be free...

[scroff]

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/16/international/middleeast/16scene.html)

Who are they supposed to build trust with?

How many families in this city, will not have lost loved ones to american bombs?

Way to be free...Aww, RF, haven't you heard? Freedom isn't free! (unless you're not willing to uh, oh, never mind...)


http://www.anywhichway.net/images/smiles/usa.sml