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Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 01:30 PM
How come no one moans about the other countries?

This Yassa Arafat thing, they are burning tyres :huh: Nice and healthy for the ozone.
Suicide Bombers, 14 y/o children getting on a bus and blowing themselves up, inocent people being tested on, does' no one care about any of this?

Is America really the scary nation?

I don't think so, when New York welded shut all it's manhole covers for New year because of the threat of bombers, alarm bells were ringing.
I don't feel safe going to london or a big city for the fear of someone walking into a pub and detonating a nail bomb.
The world is living in fear because these people who have no respect for human life are everywhere and we have no way of knowing who is who and who is fighting for what.

Maybe instead of talking shit about polotics and how the US should'nt have done this and that, maybe we would be better to concentrate on the real problem.
These people are brutally murdering inocent people who are actually trying to help.

So maybe we should stfu about america and Bush considering he's the only one who had the nuts to stand up and let these animals know that if they want a fight, they'll get one.
Unfortunately it's impossible to fight such a group, they have no care or feeling for anything and follow a set of rules THEY say is religious yet no where in any religious text does it sate you must maim and murder inocent people?

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 01:35 PM
I don't feel safe going to london or a big city for the fear of someone walking into a pub and detonating a nail bomb.

Really? Thats quite sad :(

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 01:38 PM
Yeah seriously Dan, I could not live in london, it would do my head in :(

Smells too :P

Jonno :cool:

Afronaut
11-12-2004, 01:42 PM
You got some points there I agree with.

I dont like Big cities.
Ppl are nasty there.

Not because of Terrorist only, but the Big ones just freak me out.

bigboab
11-12-2004, 01:56 PM
Yeah seriously Dan, I could not live in london, it would do my head in :(

Smells too :P

Jonno :cool:

You forgot to add that all that traffic frightens your horse.:rolleyes: :lol:

DanB
11-12-2004, 01:59 PM
they are burning tyres :huh: Nice and healthy for the ozone.


Not burning tyres :ohmy:





:P

manker
11-12-2004, 02:04 PM
I'm not touching this with a barge pole :confused:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 02:08 PM
@Dan..... You guys all went on about america pollution, and you must realise that burning tyres is about as bad as it gets for pollution?

@Manker ..... Why not? I'm just saying what most are too afraid to, everyone is bashing the US because so many people are, but most are too afraid to say anything about the other countries, the ones which are the real threat.
Why? Because it's rascist?......So what is slagging of America? Are they not a race?

Jonno :cool:

Cheese
11-12-2004, 02:10 PM
America is the most powerful country in the world and it's actions within and outside have a bearing on all our lives so it's only natural that people discuss these topics so frequently.

These discussions are some of the most interesting and informative on this board. Long may they continue, I enjoy reading them.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 02:14 PM
America is the most powerful country in the world and it's actions within and outside have a bearing on all our lives

Define Powerful?
Money?
Weapons?
Army's?
Land mass?
Followers?
Fanatics?

What is powerful?

And the other countries have a major baring on our lives too, other nations in their way have just as much baring than the US

Jonno :cool:

manker
11-12-2004, 02:16 PM
@Dan..... You guys all went on about america pollution, and you must realise that burning tyres is about as bad as it gets for pollution?

@Manker ..... Why not? I'm just saying what most are too afraid to, everyone is bashing the US because so many people are, but most are too afraid to say anything about the other countries, the ones which are the real threat.
Why? Because it's rascist?......So what is slagging of America? Are they not a race?

Jonno :cool:
I'm not touching it it for a few reasons. I totally disagree but I don't have a whole afternoon to waste, like I did yesterday - and it wasn't even you :dry:

You'll come up with things like that - slagging off a country's foreign policy is NOT racist. Think about it.

Cheese
11-12-2004, 02:20 PM
Define Powerful?
Money?
Weapons?
Army's?
Land mass?
Followers?
Fanatics?

What is powerful?

And the other countries have a major baring on our lives too, other nations in their way have just as much baring than the US

Jonno :cool:

Economic and military might for a start, but it goes much deeper.

Other countries have a bearing on our life too but USA permeates our lives like no other country in the entire world.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 02:21 PM
No, I said that slagging off the US is rascist, same as anything else, if I said that a country has a crap president and are mudereds and should'nt be allowed to do stuff, you would all say I was being rascist.
I don't see the difference.

Still, you have the right to not want to participate :) I wont judge you for that.

These are my views, you either agree or you don't, I don't really care, but like everyone is moaning abuot the US, I'm moaning about them moaning about the US.

Jonno :cool:

Edit @Cheese .... Yes exactly, so why does no one ever moan about other countries which DO have major bearings on our lives?

Comic_Peddler
11-12-2004, 02:29 PM
Well, Jonno, I think part of the problem is, and I hate to use the term, but it is not "trendy" at the moment here. Discussing the plights in South America where drug lords rule certain governments doesn't really interest people because they haven't taken the time to learn of these things. It would take away time to find things on google to snipe about dealing with the U.S. so they will seem to be of the "intellegencia".

Another thing I find funny, is people talk say that the U.S. could completely cut itself off from the world and no one would really notice, yet at the same time they say how much their daily life is effected by the U.S.

I quess this would mean they would not be able to drink their Cokes and eat their McDonald's while they spew their hateful diatribes hopeing someone will think they are "smart".

manker
11-12-2004, 02:30 PM
No, I said that slagging off the US is rascist, same as anything else, if I said that a country has a crap president and are mudereds and should'nt be allowed to do stuff, you would all say I was being rascist.

To be fair, Jonno. I'd probably post a :blink: and say wtf.

Slagging off a president, foreign policy and whatever 'stuff' you didn't think GWB shouldn't be allowed to do is not racist.

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 02:30 PM
We do..

Just no one else has as much affect on my life..

I slag off Blaire often...

but Chirac, as an example, doesnt affect meas much, except by particularly stupid EU desicions...and then i slag them off...

I slag off Bush for stuff that affects me... I dont know about other stuff like "No Child Left Behind" etc..

I am concerned and affected by his Foreign, Environmental and Financial Polices though...so thats what i attack. If they had no affect on me and mine, i probably wouldnt give a stuff about what he was doing or who the President was... :rolleyes:

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Well, Jonno, I think part of the problem is, and I hate to use the term, but it is not "trendy" at the moment here. Discussing the plights in South America where drug lords rule certain governments doesn't really interest people because they haven't taken the time to learn of these things. It would take away time to find things on google to snipe about dealing with the U.S. so they will seem to be of the "intellegencia".

Another thing I find funny, is people talk say that the U.S. could completely cut itself off from the world and no one would really notice, yet at the same time they say how much their daily life is effected by the U.S.

I quess this would mean they would not be able to drink their Cokes and eat their McDonald's while they spew their hateful diatribes hopeing someone will think they are "smart".

Please... Feel welcome to start a thread on Colombia...
:devil:

Cheese
11-12-2004, 02:36 PM
Edit @Cheese .... Yes exactly, so why does no one ever moan about other countries which DO have major bearings on our lives?


They just pale into insignificance in their impact when compared to the United States.

Can you think of any other country that has such an effect on us? Any other country that has brought us into a war, for instance?

I'm glad we have these threads because otherwise I'd never get the counter-view to the general anti-American feeling in this country. I could never find someone here who thought it was a good idea to re-elect Bush but yet I can come here and listen to their opinions.

I'm not a huge fan of the U.S. for a number of reasons though I avoid the "hateful diatribes" as much as I avoid McDonalds and coca-cola. I have my own opinions which I don't usually express on this board but I am fascinated by other people's veiws on this topic.

DanB
11-12-2004, 02:36 PM
I can think of worse things for the enviroment than burning tyres. How about factories that have no limits placed on their polluttion?

vidcc
11-12-2004, 02:44 PM
Another thing I find funny, is people talk say that the U.S. could completely cut itself off from the world and no one would really notice, yet at the same time they say how much their daily life is effected by the U.S.

I quess this would mean they would not be able to drink their Cokes and eat their McDonald's while they spew their hateful diatribes hopeing someone will think they are "smart".Just going to post on this bit.

many Americans do have the opinion that the world needs us more than we need them, and it's often the same people with this attitude that champion the "cutting off " idea... "let's see the world cope then".

fact is we need the world. We could survive without it but not with the same level of "luxury" we enjoy now. We only became a superpower because of the benefits we enjoyed in our relationship with the world...trade and technology etc...
Someone the other day ( i think it was the robbin williams thread ) suggested we don't buy oil from the ME...that will teach them a lesson.... but what if the ME suddenly refused to sell oil to us?...who do you think would be more at a disadvantage?
Cutting ourselves off would be more detrimental to us than it would to the world. After all, some other country would benefit from the openings we leave behind.
At the end of the day all that would be achieved by total lock down is inconvenience...life would go on with a bit of adjustment :)


To the thread point.

Personally i talk more about the USA because it is my country and if I can't look at my own country without a critical eye, what right do i have to look at others.
The only way to make improvements in life is to admit imperfections and try to resolve them.
I don't think the USA is evil...it is a great country with wonderful people....just sometimes we get things wrong.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 02:49 PM
@CM .......Exactly, thankyou :)

@Cheese .... Thats fair enough :) I personally thought the idea of an election which could possibly rupture the foundation of the US at a time like this was silly.
I like Bush because he has nuts, like Maggie Thatcher, (altho she did'nt litterally have nuts as far as I know) and yes she was a corrupt bitch, but she did'nt stand for threats to our nation, same as Bush, he's not willing to let these people walk over us.

I'll say something controversial now, I apologise if it upsets anyone, please remember it's a thought on my behalf and not my own view, more of an observation.

This thing with kidnapping people and slicing their heads off, everyone thinks it's wrong and sick right?
Yes it is, but what if we did it as retaliation?
The problem being that we are "Civil" people and don't do it.
Fire fire with flowers is what we do.
These people do not understand that. What if we fought fire with fire?

What if we done to them what they do to us?

The point being that altho the US has many things people think are wrong, so does every country, before judging other countries maybe everyone should take a long hard look at their own.

Jonno :cool:

Comic_Peddler
11-12-2004, 02:53 PM
Just going to post on this bit.

many Americans do have the opinion that the world needs us more than we need them, and it's often the same people with this attitude that champion the "cutting off " idea... "let's see the world cope then".

Please don't get me wrong vidcc, I do not subcribe to that thought process. I was merely talking about the duality some people seem to have. I mean I fail to understand how one person can think we are nothing and the world doesn't need the U.S. yet at the same time we effect how many billions of people. How can we be nothing AND have a huge effect at the same time?

DanB
11-12-2004, 02:56 PM
Its hardly fighting fire with flowers when you are bombing the crap out off and assualting their supposed base though.

There's no way the US or UK forces are going to start beheading the prisoners they have taken, trust me :lol:

vidcc
11-12-2004, 03:00 PM
Please don't get me wrong vidcc, I do not subcribe to that thought process. I was merely talking about the duality some people seem to have. I mean I fail to understand how one person can think we are nothing and the world doesn't need the U.S. yet at the same time we effect how many billions of people. How can we be nothing AND have a huge effect at the same time?i probably could have worded it better but then i would have been even longer winded than usual :lol: i didn't actually think you suggest cutting ourselves off.

The biggest influence we have on the world isn't our culture, although it could be connected.... it's our actions. Sometimes our actions are not appreciated as we think they should be. One wrong can cancel out a thousand rights :(

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 03:01 PM
There's no way the US or UK forces are going to start beheading the prisoners they have taken, trust me :lol:

Yes I know that :rolleyes: I did'nt mean they should :lol:

I meant they do these things but no one ever says anything for fear of being called rascist etc, I agree the bombing the crap out of everything cos you THINK there are bad people there is a bit silly and civilians are murederd in effect. But we don't film it and post it all over the net for friends and families to see.
There are a lot sicker people and nations out there than the US.

The yanks are just big headed :P :lol: (ok thats a joke and not meant to offend)

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 03:03 PM
No one ever says what for fear for of being called racist?

i think if you look you'll find plenty of posts renouncing the beheading activities

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 03:08 PM
I was just using those as an example :)

I did'nt mean that topic exactly, the whole point of this thread is that there are other big fish in the world that are far worse than the US, yet no one ever mentions them.Take your sig fro example Dan,

Guns don't kill people, George Bush does.

Why Bush? Bin laden has killed far more, so did Sadam Hussien and many others, Bush went to war for a reason he believed, the others just kill cos they can.

Jonno :cool:

lynx
11-12-2004, 03:15 PM
The reason people attack (verbally I mean) the US is because it presents itself as the perfect model which we should all aspire to emulate. The truth is that it has a corrupt, undemocratic, bullying, hypocritical regime with delusions of grandeur.

Bush's administration has effectively said that if I don't agree with their policies then I am as bad as those who carry out atrocities around the world. Not surprisingly I take offence at this enormous slur. Under the circumstances I think my condemnation of their policies is comparatively mild.

There is a rumour that the US thinks of itself as the "land of the free". It's citizens could do with taking a close look at Denmark and Germany - they produce much better fairy stories.

DanB
11-12-2004, 03:17 PM
:lol: My sig is just a little play on spinningfreemanny's

They kill for a reason they believe in too Jonno

SuperJude™
11-12-2004, 03:20 PM
As Americans we are an easy target. We have a large and powerful country AND we are willing to hold these types of discussions. I don't see many Russians or Chinese getting into many of these discussions.

Look at what happened in the Netherlands. You write shit about America we write shit back, you write shit about the Middle East and people come and kill you.

To me, it just makes us a safe target for people to talk shit about when in fact we have the most cultures represented here in the U.S., more than any place at any time in history. They are now burning mosques in Nl. too I read. Does this make the Netherlands a bad place?

Not in the least, but every place has its' particular issues, and people like to dramatize the actions of the U.S. and it has been so since we became a nation, a fact that I would rather people not forget. People will still be taking issue with us 100 years from now.

Sure we have negatives to our culture but it isn't that bad either, not in the least. We are just the safest superpower to talk shit about.

-SJ™

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 03:26 PM
You write shit about America we write shit back, you write shit about the Middle East and people come and kill you.


Thats it, right there.

@Dan .... I know what your sig is, I was just using it as an example to help me explain my point :) and what is their belief? that the world is a better place without the US and the UK and anyone who does'nt believe in their god.
It's all religion and being backed up with bibles and such shit which like I said state no where that they must hunt and kill people for their cause.

@Lynx ...... Thats fine, but they say you are as bad, you walk into certain places in the middle east and say you dissagree with them, what do you think would happen? Stoned to death? Beheaded? Burnt? , America simply "Says" things, it does'nt murder people for having a different belief.

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 03:30 PM
I beg to differ over the america simply says things part

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 03:40 PM
Ok could you give me an example please? :)

Where the US have gone gung ho over something that has been "Said".
Also since when have they gone into war because someone dissagree's?
They went into Iraq for the reason that like it or not, no one can deny that Saddam Hussien was a threat to the world, maybe not at the time they invaded, but what should they have done? Wait for him to flatten a country before acting? Let him build up a military capable of putting up a real fight?.
Same with many others.

I think a lot of the Iraq thing was frustration from not finding Bin Laden, someone had to pay type of thing, but it was going to happen sooner or later and needed to be done.

Remember one thing, the Us and UK did not start this, we did'nt waltz into their country and start blowing things up cos they don't believe in our god.

If someone just walked upto you in a pub and punched you, would you punch him back? or say Sorry and walk away?

Jonno :cool:

vidcc
11-12-2004, 03:43 PM
jon.

I appreciate your point, but could it be because of the fact that what the USA does affects more on an international scale than many others that do far worse things.

lynx
11-12-2004, 03:47 PM
@Lynx ...... Thats fine, but they say you are as bad, you walk into certain places in the middle east and say you dissagree with them, what do you think would happen? Stoned to death? Beheaded? Burnt? , America simply "Says" things, it does'nt murder people for having a different belief.The big difference is that these other countries aren't holding themselves up as paragons of virtue.

Peace in the Middle East could probably have been achieved a long time ago, or at least been much closer than it is today if US policy about UN resolutions had at least been consistent.

Thousands of people are dying in Iraq because the US and UK decided they were going to uphold certain resolutions (which did not allow for use of force), a little more than just "saying things". Yet when anyone suggests upholding equally strong resolutions against Israel the US immediately blocks it with a veto. Then, with the next breath Bush denounces the UN as a useless talking shop. Seems he wants it all ways. Not surprisingly there are those who see this as unjust, and that some of them are willing to fight for a what they regard as justice. You or I might do the same under similar circumstances.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 03:48 PM
Yes quite possibly :)

I'm not saying the US is wonderful, no Nation is free of guilt, I just wonder why no one ever mentions any other countries :)

Jonno :cool:

vidcc
11-12-2004, 03:51 PM
I just wonder why no one ever mentions any other countries :)

Jonno :cool:
" do you even know there's other countries ? . . . .

ahctlucabbuS
11-12-2004, 04:03 PM
All I have to say (without reading this thread) is that it's a huge difference in responsibility between individuals and goverments (see the israel - palestinian conflict as an example)

You can't influence these sick individuals, but you can (one hopes) influence goverments.

And when unjustice is done, in this case from america, you have a responsibility as a human beeing to speak up instead of acting like an opressed twat (regardless of you beeing one or not)!

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 04:08 PM
@Lynx . Yes I do understand that :) My point is we are forever thumping the US, I'm English the US has very little bearing on my life, what Bush does and does'nt do does not relly effect me, but when a bomb goes off in a major city in My country of origin it worries me and DOES have an effect on my life.
The US does'nt kill my fellow English people.
The US is on our side, the fight against those who are trying to eradicate anyone who does not believe in their god.

In short, The US and UK retaliated not started.
What would have happend if the UK did'nt retaliate against Hitler?, we went in long before he hurt an Englishman, personally I think the thing with Iraq was the same, except they caught it before it got out of hand.

@Vidcc ... I'm sorry I don't understand your post :)

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 04:11 PM
I wasn't aware that there had been any bombs by Islamic fanatics in the UK :huh:


What Bush does and doesn't do does effect on your life though Jonno :)

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 04:29 PM
Then please to be explaining how it effects MY life? cos so far I see no difference :)

btw, thankyou all for input, very interesting :)

Jonno :cool:

vidcc
11-12-2004, 04:30 PM
@Vidcc ... I'm sorry I don't understand your post :)

Jonno :cool:Eddie izzard did a show in New York and started a piece about the NI peace talks, as the audience was quiet he asked "do you even know there are other countries"...... this thread being about why all the talk about the USA

not sure what the tour was called but worth a download.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 04:32 PM
:lol: Oh I see, sorry not as quick as usual today :lol:

Jonno :cool:

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 04:36 PM
Jon, think about it another way. What George Bush does affects you in ways that you might not see. Do you think that perhaps some of the decisions made by other governments are made in regard to what a superpower such as the United States would like to see done? You may not see how it affects your life personally, but many Englishmen went to fight in a war in Iraq that they didn't start, but were sent to fight in because of a decision by George Bush. Their lives, and those of their families, have been affected.

Interest rates, fluctuations in currency values, stock market dips - these are things which affect us all globally. The US being a wealthy country, and having so much money invested in so many things globally, does have a huge impact on these things.

Of course other countries impact these things as well, but on a smaller scale, so we may not notice them as much. It's the things that draw our attention that we tend to bitch about, and as others have said, when you make yourself (as a country) stand out in the forefront, you are more likely to have slings and arrows tossed at you.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 04:47 PM
Good point :) Yes I realise that, again my original point was the seeming fear people have about saying anything good about the US.
Yes the UK got involved, those who have lost their lives died for a cause, my heart goes out to them and their bravery is outstanding.

But to be blunt and take out the emotional side to it (this may sound worse than I mean it, please keep an open mind) when you join the army you must realise there is a chance of war, a chef does not become a chef and not expect to cut himself. You see what I mean?
Please don't get me wrong on this, but it is a fact that a soldier signs up with the knowledge he may someday have to risk his life for his country.

The war imo was inevitable, it's been going on for years and like I said, it was them who invaded, the US and UK Retaliated.

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 04:51 PM
Did you read the 2nd paragraph? :unsure:

Its not all about the war :rolleyes:

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 04:52 PM
a soldier signs up with the knowledge he may someday have to risk his life for his country.


Not because of someone that was told by God to invade another country..

That is the point Jonno.

Shame you cant see it yourself...

manker
11-12-2004, 04:53 PM
Jonno.

There is an equally valid argument to say that Al Qaida retaliated against The US' foreign policy in the only way they could. They did not drive planes into Central NYC on a whim.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 04:58 PM
@RF .... No, they were/are defending against people who are told by god.

A quick question if you don't mind (to anyone who reads) What do you think would have been the outcome if we had not invaded and after 9/11 they just quietly went looking for Bin Laden?

I'm curios :)

@Manker ..... Thats my point, we argue about stuff but just because we dissagree we don't go killing thousands of inocent people. It was a retaliation with brute force to someone who attacked the US , why did they attack the US? For what reason?

Jonno :cool:

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 05:00 PM
Yes, Jon, I understand that. The key words being "for his country". What is the specific reason that the UK is fighting this war? Because the US is fighting this war.

EDIT:
A quick question if you don't mind (to anyone who reads) What do you think would have been the outcome if we had not invaded and after 9/11 they just quietly went looking for Bin Laden?

They did. And they were completely justified in doing so, although they didn't do as much as they should have in this regard. I don't think anyone will argue that the US was justified in trying to find Bin Laden and bring him to justice. It was proven that Bin Laden was instrumental in the attacks. To what purpose did they invade Iraq? It has never been proven that Hussein had anything to do with 9/11. Or that he had weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps I'm mistaken on this second point though.

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:04 PM
Yes, Jon, I understand that. The key words being "for his country". What is the specific reason that the UK is fighting this war? Because the US is fighting this war.

Exactly :01:


I reckon if Iraq hadn't have been invaded it would have probably carried on like it had done since the last Gulf War.


@RF .... No, they were/are defending against people who are told by god.

Mr Bush has said that he too has been told to fight this fight by God too :)

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 05:04 PM
@RF .... No, they were/are defending against people who are told by god.

A quick question if you don't mind (to anyone who reads) What do you think would have been the outcome if we had not invaded and after 9/11 they just quietly went looking for Bin Laden?

I'm curios :)


They knew where Bin Laden was. They could have taken him out at any time, however the delayed... look at who were the only people flying out of the USA shortly after 9/11 then ask yourself why.

In addition, the Taliban offered to hand him over... to any country other than the USA as they believed he wouldnt get a Fair Trial there.. well Cuba shows they were probably right there too.

Finally, the only Al Queda Training camps in Iraq were those in the Kurd controlled North East, where Saddam couldnt get them. They were actually fighting with the Kurds and USA to invade Iraq... so you tell me, does Bush give a stuff about Bin Laden?

Its actually been quite handy for him, being able to point to Al Queda in Iraq the last few month... even though they had absolutely no influence there before the invasion...

Barbarossa
11-12-2004, 05:04 PM
I wasn't aware that there had been any bombs by Islamic fanatics in the UK :huh:


Every day I thank my lucky stars that this still be true.. :(

manker
11-12-2004, 05:07 PM
@Manker ..... Thats my point, we argue about stuff but just because we dissagree we don't go killing thousands of inocent people. It was a retaliation with brute force to someone who attacked the US , why did they attack the US? For what reason?

I just wrote the reason. They attacked the US because of the US' foreign policy.

Please read what I've written, Jonno. That is the reason I've stayed out of this thread for as long as this.

Also:

Yes - If you wish to put it simply - we argued with Saddam about looking at his factories, when we reached disagreement we killed thousands and thousands of Iraqi civillians.

When I say we, I'm talking of the coalition.

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 05:08 PM
that a soldier signs up with the knowledge he may someday have to risk his life for his country.


I'll try a different tack then...

A country is its people, not one person.

Blaire wanted to be Bush's lapdog, the population (ie the country) didnt want to go in.

Only 30% of the UK population supports the Iraq War.. ie: They are not fighting for their country.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:10 PM
I personally think the reason is because they have been a threat for a long time and it has affected our people, again, we are retaliating, the US and the UK are Buddies in goverment, Bush and Blair got together like a couple of kids and said "Lets go show these fuckers who their messing with" , gung ho.
They are fighting for England and the safety of the people of the world.

Terrorism is a disease which needs iradicating, where do you start? at the heart.

Our boys are fighting for our right to live, does'nt matter who sent them where, they are fighting for me, and you and everyone else, so we can see the olympics or football or other big events without someone saying "I hope there's not a bomber in there" or words to that effect.
So we can get on a plane without the fear of it being mercilessly rammed into a building, so we can go to big cities in our homeland without the threat of a car exploding as you walk past.

They fight for peace, in this mad fucked up world the only thing some people understand is force, they wont talk, they wont chill out, they hate and want death and destruction. If thats the only way then so be it.
When this is all over, maybe 2morrow maybe not for 50 years, our childrens children have the chance to live life without the fear of being caught in the middle.

One day there will be peace, whether or not the human race will be around to see it is another question altogether :)

And with that I think I will leave this topic and thankyou all for sharing your thoughts :)

Jonno :cool:

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 05:12 PM
they are fighting for me, and you

They may be fighting for you, they certainly are not fighting in my name..

manker
11-12-2004, 05:14 PM
No, thank you.

What a load of cliched rubbish. Did you even listen to one person's point?

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:19 PM
No, thank you.

What a load of cliched rubbish. Did you even listen to one person's point?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is why we should have stayed out of this thread :frusty:

Ok Jonno, just remember there weren't any terrorists in Iraq before the Coalition invaded

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:23 PM
To what purpose did they invade Iraq?

Sorry I missed this. And considering you're the only person who answered my question.

To irradicate the threat of Hussien.
Did you trust him?

Ok bye :lol:

@Manker . That's called believing in the good, optomism, glass is half full :)

Jonno :cool:

manker
11-12-2004, 05:28 PM
Question asked:

Did you even listen to one person's point?

Answer given:

@Manker . That's called believing in the good, optomism, glass is half full :)

What is the point. I may as well talk to that virtual bartender (http://www.virtualbartender.beer.com/beer_usa.htm) thing :rolleyes:

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Sorry I missed this. And considering you're the only person who answered my question.


:lol: And there was me thinking I had answered your question too :rolleyes:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:31 PM
Yes I did, I read all and thanked everyone for their views, did you not see that bit? :)

The above was in answer to you saying it was cliched rubbish :)

Jonno :cool:

BigBank_Hank
11-12-2004, 05:32 PM
Its nice to see some new faces in here instead of the same group of us arguing all the time.

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 05:32 PM
@Manker . That's called believing in the good, optomism, glass is half full :)

Jonno :cool:

No, thats whats called having a Broken Glass...

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:35 PM
@Dan
I reckon if Iraq hadn't have been invaded it would have probably carried on like it had done since the last Gulf War.


Building and testing of chemical weapons in Iraq and surrounding area?
Planes smashing into buildins?
It's been like this for years, maybe not quite to the scale it is now, but what about the other attcks on the world trade centre and various others round the world, they've been going on years, it just needed a trigger to spark it all off. 9/11 was that trigger.

Jonno :cool:

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:36 PM
@Dan

Building and testing of chemical weapons in Iraq and surrounding area?
Planes smashing into buildins?
It's been like this for years, maybe not quite to the scale it is now, but what about the other attcks on the world trade centre and various others round the world, they've been going on years, it just needed a trigger to spark it all off. 9/11 was that trigger.

Jonno :cool:


Has it been proved that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11? :unsure:

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 05:36 PM
I personally think the reason is because they have been a threat for a long time and it has affected our people, again, we are retaliating, the US and the UK are Buddies in goverment, Bush and Blair got together like a couple of kids and said "Lets go show these fuckers who their messing with" , gung ho.
They are fighting for England and the safety of the people of the world.

Yes, that's exactly what THEY did. The government is supposed to represent the wishes of its people, no? The people don't support this decision. The government, in this case Blair, is making unsupported decisions because of his "buddy" George Bush.


Terrorism is a disease which needs iradicating, where do you start? at the heart.

Yes, exactly. Is Iraq the heart? Not that I've seen.


Our boys are fighting for our right to live, does'nt matter who sent them where, they are fighting for me, and you and everyone else, so we can see the olympics or football or other big events without someone saying "I hope there's not a bomber in there" or words to that effect.
So we can get on a plane without the fear of it being mercilessly rammed into a building, so we can go to big cities in our homeland without the threat of a car exploding as you walk past.

When has UK been attacked? The longer they buddy up with the US, the more they make themselves a target. The US is a target because of its foreign policies. The more the UK adapts these policies the more of a target it becomes. Fighting this war is not eradicating terrorism and protecting UK citizens from attacks. It is making the likelihood of an attack on UK soil increase.

Good reason or not, the fact that the UK is standing shoulder to shoulder with the US will make terrorists take more notice of it. I don't agree with it. I don't support it. However, can you not see how this can be construed by terrorist? If you are friends with the enemy, then you become the enemy.


They fight for peace, in this mad fucked up world the only thing some people understand is force, they wont talk, they wont chill out, they hate and want death and destruction. If thats the only way then so be it.
When this is all over, maybe 2morrow maybe not for 50 years, our childrens children have the chance to live life without the fear of being caught in the middle.

Is it for peace? Isn't the foundation of peace that everyone deserves to have their own way of life and their own beliefs? There will never be an end to the fighting as long as everyone forces their beliefs on everyone else. Period. Retaliating doesn't foster peace. It creates a chain reaction. The US went into Iraq with the pretense of doing for those that could not do for themselves. But are they taking into account what the citizens of Iraq want now that Hussein is gone? Do you see what I mean with this? I could go on and on about this.


One day there will be peace, whether or not the human race will be around to see it is another question altogether :)

As long as governments see fit to shove their noses into others personal freedoms, there will not be.

Our belief structure is different that that of the people in the middle east. Does that mean it is better? We seem to think so, but do we take into account what they think? We're arrogant to think that our way of life is right and theirs is wrong. I may not agree with it but I don't deny them the right to live their lives the way they see fit. Who are we to tell them they're doing it wrong? The only way there will ever be world peace is if EVERY country keeps to themselves and leaves everyone else alone. That will never happen. Someone will always be out there to tell others they're doing it wrong.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:38 PM
Eurgh, no I said this earlier that they went in because they could'nt get Bin Laden, so they went for Sadam, bit childish but like I said, it was gonna happen sooner or later, if left alone what would saddam have done?
How far would he have gone?

I'll ask you the same I asked Nikki, Did you trust him?

The End Justfies the means.

Jonno :cool:

Edit: : Nikki , I'm only gonna answer this bit cos I really would like to get out of this thread :)


When has UK been attacked?

Were there no Uk people in the twin towers? Bali? and the hundreds of other attacks?

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:42 PM
The End Justfies the means.


:no:



Good post Nikki :D


edit - earlier on Jonno you claimed they had invaded our country and you were scared to go out in case you got caught in a bomb. To then say oh but English people in other countries were caught up in it sort of ruins your whole paragraph

manker
11-12-2004, 05:43 PM
The above was in answer to you saying it was cliched rubbish :)

Oh right, well I didn't want that answered. I'm right, it need not be added to.

Here, I'll show you - Cliched rubbish:


Lets go show these fuckers who their messing with"


fighting for .. the safety of the people of the world


Terrorism is a disease which needs iradicating


fighting for our right to live


They fight for peace, in this mad fucked up world


When this is all over, maybe 2morrow maybe not for 50 years, our childrens children have the chance to live


One day there will be peace, whether or not the human race will be around to see it is another question altogether

Not being funny, mate, but you've either just finished watching the entire Terminator Trilogy or you're The Ultimate Warrior.

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 05:46 PM
The End Justfies the means.

10 points for naming who he just quoted :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DanB
11-12-2004, 05:49 PM
Ahmed Chalabi :unsure:

or some Machiavelli bloke :lol:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:49 PM
Not being funny, mate, but you've either just finished watching the entire Terminator Trilogy or you're The Ultimate Warrior.

Or maybe I try to see the good in situations, maybe I don't want to look at everything thro dark windows, maybe thats my right to feel that way.

You asked if I've listend to people views and points, yes I have, has anyone listend to my views and points to try and understand them as I have yours?

When it boils down to it, we all think differently and all have different opinions, no one is right or wrong, what one man thinks is right, another thinks is wrong.
Who is right?

Jonno :cool:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:50 PM
10 points for naming who he just quoted :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bet you thinking someone different :P

Jonno :cool:

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 05:57 PM
Eurgh, no I said this earlier that they went in because they could'nt get Bin Laden, so they went for Sadam, bit childish but like I said, it was gonna happen sooner or later, if left alone what would saddam have done?
How far would he have gone?

I'll ask you the same I asked Nikki, Did you trust him?

I don't trust a lot of people. Does that give me the right to decimate their homes and families? So now it's okay to attack anyone that is untrustworthy?


The End Justfies the means.

Unfortunately it doesn't. It just adds fuel to the fire. Do you honestly think that the invasion of Iraq is the end?

As to the UK citizens in the WTC and Bali etc, I don't disagree with you there. They were tragic, but they weren't the prime targets in the attacks? How many innocent Iraqis have died since the invasions? Are their lives less valuable? Does the grieving Iraqi who has just lost a loved one deserve less sympathy than the grieving American/Canadian/Englishman/insert countless countries who lost a loved one on 9/11.

If look at all of this without emotion, it's like one big schoolyard fight. You kicked me, so I'm going to kick you back, and then your friend looked at me funny so I'm gonna kick him too, then your friend jumps in to back you up and so on and so forth.

manker
11-12-2004, 05:57 PM
Or maybe I try to see the good in situations, maybe I don't want to look at everything thro dark windows, maybe thats my right to feel that way.

You asked if I've listend to people views and points, yes I have, has anyone listend to my views and points to try and understand them as I have yours?

When it boils down to it, we all think differently and all have different opinions, no one is right or wrong, what one man thinks is right, another thinks is wrong.
Who is right?

Jonno :cool:
No, Jonno.

People are frequently right or wrong every day. In this case you've contradicted, contorted and twisted your opinions to suit whoever you were arguing with.

I'm afraid that makes you wrong.

I read your posts with intent when I reply to them, I always make sure that I address each point I consider to be pertinent, in doing that me understanding your viewpoint is essential. So yes, I listened to your views.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 05:59 PM
So let me get this straight, every one of you would think it would have been better if Iraq had never been touched?

Jonno :cool:

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 06:00 PM
When it boils down to it, we all think differently and all have different opinions, no one is right or wrong, what one man thinks is right, another thinks is wrong.
Who is right?

Isn't that the point of all of it? The only difference is that some people use forceful means to try and make people see their opinions, others are content to talk about it.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:01 PM
Were Iraq and Alkieda willing to talk?

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 06:03 PM
Were Iraq and Alkieda willing to talk?

By all accounts Iraq was doing exactly what it had been asked to do...

manker
11-12-2004, 06:03 PM
So let me get this straight, every one of you would think it would have been better if Iraq had never been touched?
I don't speak for everyone, only myself.

I wish with my whole heart that we didn't invade Iraq last year.

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:03 PM
So let me get this straight, every one of you would think it would have been better if Iraq had never been touched?

Jonno :cool:

Yup I think so. Definitely would have been best if they had done something about the people who openly have them and flaunt them (North Korea for example)

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:10 PM
Ok thankyou :)

I'm outta here :)

Jonno :cool:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:20 PM
Life is simply not like that. Tho' plenty of people seem to think so.

Yes it is, I'm wrong aparently, my views are wrong.

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:22 PM
Yes it is, I'm wrong aparently, my views are wrong.


Don't spit your dummy out Jonno.

You asked for others people's views on that matter and got them, jsut cos they don't agree with yours you don't need to get upset

manker
11-12-2004, 06:25 PM
Careful dude, you seem two tense.Yes, it didn't quite come out how I'd imagined. A delightful deviation from the norm tho'

@ Jonno - that's the spirit :D

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:27 PM
I'm not spitting anything Dan

Posted by Manker:
I'm afraid that makes you wrong.

What would you say Dan?

manker
11-12-2004, 06:28 PM
I'm not spitting anything Dan

Posted by Manker:
I'm afraid that makes you wrong.

What would you say Dan?
That I believe you're wrong.

What. I'm not allowed an opinion.

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:30 PM
I'm not spitting anything Dan

Posted by Manker:
I'm afraid that makes you wrong.

What would you say Dan?


It shouldn't matter to you what other people think though, your views and opinions are exactly that, yours

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:30 PM
Don't twist it Manker, sorry mate you think you're right and you tell me I'm wrong, where's my right to an opinion?, and we all know your opinion of me.

@ Dan .... You did'nt answer the question?

manker
11-12-2004, 06:33 PM
Don't twist it Manker, sorry mate you think you're right and you tell me I'm wrong, where's my right to an opinion?, and we all know your opinion of me?
I'm not denying your right to an opinion.

I'm just informing you that you're wrong.

The above is my opinion.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:35 PM
Thats a play on words, I'm sorry I can't argue, I know what I mean but can't put it into words you would understand.

I guess in effect you by saying I'm wrong am taking away my right to an opinion.

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:35 PM
Don't twist it Manker, sorry mate you think you're right and you tell me I'm wrong, where's my right to an opinion?, and we all know your opinion of me.

@ Dan .... You did'nt answer the question?


I would have told him to stfu it was my opinon. He may well want to tell me I am wrong, but that is the whole reason behind debating, listening to views and other arguements for and against the subject matter :huh:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:36 PM
I've tried that before and you guys generally say I've spat my dummy.

bigboab
11-12-2004, 06:37 PM
Careful dude, you seem two tense.
He is a bit worried JP. According to the news tonight the fighting in Iraq was in tense. But we all knew that about Arabs.:wacko:

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:38 PM
I've tried that before and you guys generally say I've spat my dummy.


Its because at the end of (nearly) every debate thread you start you end up getting the hump cos not everyone agrees with you

Just chill its not personal :)

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:39 PM
Why does everyone keep on about America when there are other countries too?
they do things wrong, why does no one complain about them?

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:41 PM
Thats a play on words, I'm sorry I can't argue, I know what I mean but can't put it into words you would understand.

I guess in effect you by saying I'm wrong am taking away my right to an opinion.


He's not denying your right to an opinion he is just expressing his.

Thats like Manker saying to me Man Utd are the nuts and me saying bollocks they are a load of crap. Doesn't mean I am not letting him have his opinion on Man U just that I have a differing view

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 06:42 PM
I've tried that before and you guys generally say I've spat my dummy.

That's because you generally do.

You start out making your points, and arguing your points. When people don't agree with you, you become sarcastic and play the martyr. "You don't agree with me, I'm gonna sulk and try and make you feel sorry for me."

I'm sorry if that's harsh, but if you can't debate without taking things personally, perhaps you should not debate.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree with your opinion. If you can't see that, then you shouldn't give your opinion.

manker
11-12-2004, 06:45 PM
How in a holy hail of shrapnel was that a play on words.

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:45 PM
That's because you generally do.

You start out making your points, and arguing your points. When people don't agree with you, you become sarcastic and play the martyr. "You don't agree with me, I'm gonna sulk and try and make you feel sorry for me."

I'm sorry if that's harsh, but if you can't debate without taking things personally, perhaps you should not debate.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree with your opinion. If you can't see that, then you shouldn't give your opinion.

Thank you, you just completely humiliated me.

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:48 PM
http://www.sighost.us/members/danb/pwned.gif


Jonno, unfortuantely when other people tell you that like Cheese or Manker you get offended, perhaps now someone else has you will take notice of it :unsure:

spinningfreemanny
11-12-2004, 06:52 PM
Wow, quite a read...

@Jonno There are way more influential people that do not visit these forums that agree with your views then it is cared to think...The ratio is just lopsided here... :)

PS> isn't now the time for some such people to develop imaginations of their own and create their own sigs instead of stealing others?*cough*scroff*cough*dan*

DanB
11-12-2004, 06:53 PM
Wow, quite a read...

@Jonno There are way more influential people that do not visit these forums that agree with your views then it is cared to think...The ratio is just lopsided here... :)

PS> isn't now the time for some such people to develop imaginations of their own and create their own sigs instead of stealing others?*cough*scroff*cough*dan*

Sorry Manny, mine was just a little play on your abortion one. I guess now you have changed it I will change mine ;)

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 06:54 PM
Thank you, you just completely humiliated me.

No, Jon, you did that yourself when you decided to take people opinions personally, just because they didn't agree with yours. I simply pointed that out.

Cheese
11-12-2004, 06:56 PM
Sorry Manny, mine was just a little play on your abortion one. I guess now you have changed it I will change mine ;)
Manny's wasn't going to win any awards for originality either.

Whereas mine you are all free to copy.;)

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 06:59 PM
No, Jon, you did that yourself when you decided to take people opinions personally, just because they didn't agree with yours. I simply pointed that out.

I was told I was wrong, how's that not personal?

DanB
11-12-2004, 07:01 PM
I was told I was wrong, how's that not personal?

:frusty:

Thats what happens when you debate, people with other opinions will tell you are wrong.

Just like my little example of me and manker discussing Man U

manker
11-12-2004, 07:01 PM
:glag:

Now that was a picture in word, with a wee hair of alliteration. Did you make that up yourself. May I use it. :blushing:

I did make it up but after yestersday I don't know if you're serious - no probs with you using it, of course :unsure:

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 07:03 PM
I was told I was wrong, how's that not personal?

In my opinion, you are incorrect in your views.

However, this may be because you have a few misconseptions, and should possibly look again at the whole subject. If i believed some of the stuff you appear to (ie backround stuff) my opinions may have been the same as yours in the actual Iraq/Al Queda thing as an example...

However you are using arguments that are now accepted as incorrect even by the Governments that took us to war in the 1st place...

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 07:04 PM
:frusty:

Thats what happens when you debate, people with other opinions will tell you are wrong.

I don't tell people what to think, you know this was going fine until people start up about how I'm wrong and that I hav'nt been reading and how my views are rubbish.

Read back over the thread, who was getting personal? Was'nt me, I took offence to being told I'm not allowed a view.

NikkiD
11-12-2004, 07:05 PM
So then everyone who disagrees with you is personally attacking you?

I'm sorry, I should reword all my answers then, I thought I was debating by giving my views. I should throw in a few "you assholes" and "your opinion is for shit" comments just so that I'm aware that I'm personally attacking you.

manker said you were wrong, which in his opinion, you are. If he wanted to personally attack you, he would have said "you're wrong, you f*cking moron." Or something to that effect, I can't presume to know which words manker would have used if he were going to personally attack you.

EDIT: Who the hell told you anywhere in this thread that you weren't entitled to a view?

Cheese
11-12-2004, 07:05 PM
:frusty:

Thats what happens when you debate, people with other opinions will tell you are wrong.

Just like my little example of me and manker discussing Man U
Not me. I'm never wrong and I always disregard everyone else's opinions.

DanB
11-12-2004, 07:06 PM
I don't tell people what to think, you know this was going fine until people start up about how I'm wrong and that I hav'nt been reading and how my views are rubbish.

Read back over the thread, who was getting personal? Was'nt me, I took offence to being told I'm not allowed a view.


FFS you didn't get told you weren't allowed one, you just got told that they were wrong compared to other people's views.

No where in this thread did anyone say Jonno stfu, you are not allowed an opinon.

It might have helped as RF said if you were using facts that weren't now accepted as rubbish by the Govt's that used them

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 07:06 PM
And Man U aren't football players, they're actors...

Thats not an opinion, its fact.. :rolleyes:

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 07:08 PM
Enough

I think you've all had enough fun

DanB
11-12-2004, 07:12 PM
Enough

I think you've all had enough fun


:frusty:

We aren't having fun at your expense, well I am not anyway, just trying to help so that next time you won't be so sensitive and stuff

Jon L. Obscene
11-12-2004, 07:18 PM
Ok dan let me tell you something, this was never about America, this was a test, personal test to see if I could do this debate without it ending like this.
It would seem I have a problem, I thought I could beat it today.

I could'nt.

I apologise to you all

DanB
11-12-2004, 07:20 PM
Okay, I'm sorry to hear that but I'd like to think that out of the constructive crticism that has come your way maybe you could take it on board and then try again :01:

manker
11-12-2004, 07:26 PM
Ok dan let me tell you something, this was never about America, this was a test, personal test to see if I could do this debate without it ending like this.
It would seem I have a problem, I thought I could beat it today.

I could'nt.

I apologise to you all
No need to apologise.

If this was a test to see if you could sustain some rubbish argument against the whole board with only flimsy nonsensical cliche to back you up - then yes, you've failed.

So would every other memeber too.

Is this what the seagull ire and the fireworks paddy was all about?

spinningfreemanny
11-12-2004, 07:35 PM
Manny's wasn't going to win any awards for originality either.

Whereas mine you are all free to copy.;)

Oh, this one is not for originality, it's simply to piss people off.... :shifty:

In retrospect; I guess that that is the intent of most sigs... :unsure:

manker
11-12-2004, 07:43 PM
Oh and yesterday was all down to you mate ;) Nowt todo wif me.

:contradictory bilge:

:D

manker
11-12-2004, 07:54 PM
Very true, but we can all remember accountants, especially at Christmas.


God Bless Price Waterhouse and KPMG this Yuletide.

Rat Faced
11-12-2004, 08:05 PM
I agree...

Weren't Scrooge n Marlow Accountants and Money Lenders btw?

We remember them every year...

DanB
11-12-2004, 08:18 PM
Moving threads :blink:

manker
11-12-2004, 08:37 PM
Marlow sounds more like an estate agent.

Scum of the earth, those estate agents.

Jacob Marley, I thought the name was, but wasn't he a ghost? :fear: