Hiroshima

[ahctlucabbuS]

Seeing as the "Everyone keeps on about America" thread seems to be closed for some reason.... I'll continue the thread here. Now if you can't stand history you (and the board) can fuck off!

Here it is:

http://aerostories.free.fr/hiroshima/FMnuage.jpg

http://www.ecolo.org/photos/visite/hiroshima_02/Hiroshi.1BadBurnNotSurvived.jpg

This is part of history and should not be shruged off!

Your take on the Hiroshima bomb?

[ziggyjuarez]

Rightly Done

[100%]

peace:flowers:

[ahctlucabbuS]

yea, peace is good and all :01:

But is there any point at all asking if the Hiroshima bombing was "ok" or not? Me, I think it was prematurely done just like the war in Iraq now. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was all a test of the atomic power if you ask me, and should not have been necessary.

For christ sake, Hitler was beaten... Japan had the world against them, so why detonate the bomb?

[100%]

If you get a new toy
don't you want to try it out?

[tesco]

try it in an open, unpopulated area.
they had no idea what the effects would be...that's just wrong.

think about it...you get a new power washer. when you first try it out you dont try it by squirting people*...you first test it out somewhere else.


and seeing that pic of that guy now im scared of a nuclear war. :crying:


* - Don't sqirt people with a power washer...it hurts.

[DanB]

and seeing that pic of that guy now im scared of a nuclear war. :crying:


I think most normal people are too

[ZaZu]

yea, peace is good and all :01:

But is there any point at all asking if the Hiroshima bombing was "ok" or not? Me, I think it was prematurely done just like the war in Iraq now. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was all a test of the atomic power if you ask me, and should not have been necessary.

For christ sake, Hitler was beaten... Japan had the world against them, so why detonate the bomb?

You need to realise that at the time Americans hated 'the Japs' with a passion..

[Yogi]

You need to realise that at the time Americans hated 'the Japs' with a passion..
:blink:

With that in mind you give half the world reason to nuke the other half.

I prefer a meteor.


Yogi

[lynx]

It has been generally accepted that by stopping the war in August 1945 many more lives were saved than were killed by the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Without it the Japanese infrastructure/mentality was such that continuation of the war for a protracted period was inevitable.

In fact many more Japanese civilian lives were probably saved, without even considering the fighting forces on both sides. If the war had continued for months or years, you can imagine the sort of systematic bombing which would have occurred. With the comparatively flimsy nature of Japanese housing, firestorms way in excess of what happened in Dresden and Hamburg would almost certainly have ensued. There is some documentation that this occured even with small-scale bombing raids.

BTW, the first picture is of the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, not Hiroshima.

[ahctlucabbuS]

Well I refuse to believe it was necessary. Today, knowing the devastating effects and power of the bomb the conflict would surely have played out differently. Not to mention simply using an atomic bomb in a conflict today would get us started on a path of world destruction.

Besides isn't there an old quote saying something along the lines that in war, the winner gets to write the history.

Regardless I guess we all agree to a point, and if you're looking for a reason to join some anti-nuke organisation watch Threads (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0224250/). A very disturbing film.

[Cheese]

They could have set a bomb off in an unpopulated area and said, "Look Japan we have this fecking big bomb, surrender or we start dropping them on your cities."

Might have worked, might not have. We'll never know.

[{I}{K}{E}]

why isnt this posted in the The Drawing Room?

[DanB]

it was mentioned in a thread in the drawing room but the thread got deleted

[Jon L. Obscene]

It has been generally accepted that by stopping the war in August 1945 many more lives were saved than were killed by the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Without it the Japanese infrastructure/mentality was such that continuation of the war for a protracted period was inevitable.

In fact many more Japanese civilian lives were probably saved, without even considering the fighting forces on both sides. If the war had continued for months or years, you can imagine the sort of systematic bombing which would have occurred. With the comparatively flimsy nature of Japanese housing, firestorms way in excess of what happened in Dresden and Hamburg would almost certainly have ensued. There is some documentation that this occured even with small-scale bombing raids.

BTW, the first picture is of the bomb dropped on Nagasaki, not Hiroshima.

That actually kinda makes sense, I had never thought of it like that before.
Having said that the people of these places which were "Tested" on have been dying from the blast for over 50 years. I wonder if the deaths since the bomb have evend up the argument?

Enola Gay, you should have stayed at home yesterday
Aha words can't describe the feeling and the way you lied

These games you play, they're gonna end in more than tears someday
Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way

It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been
We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home

Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today
Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away

Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way
Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't fade in our dreams away

It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been
We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home

Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today
Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away

So it should'nt have happend, but no one can blame the US as it stands now, otherwise we may as well start bitching about King Edward and his "Prima Nocta" , are the English of today to blame?

Jonno :cool:

[Samurai]

It's easy for people to start questioning the 'Why's?' & 'What If's?' now because you're alive and well to question such things.

It could have turned out a lot differently. For example... bomb wasn't dropped, instead Japan dropped one where your grandfather lived and killed him. Now you were never born and can't ask such stupid questions.

[DanB]

Funnily enough I have always believed that Japan were close to giving up anyway and the atomic bombs were dropped just to make sure

[Cheese]

why isnt this posted in the The Drawing Room?

Why are you making off-topic posts in a serious discussion?

@Samurai: Questioning the events of the past is one of the ways that we can avoid mistakes in the future.

[DanB]

It's easy for people to start questioning the 'Why's?' & 'What If's?' now because you're alive and well to question such things.

It could have turned out a lot differently. For example... bomb wasn't dropped, instead Japan dropped one where your grandfather lived and killed him. Now you were never born and can't ask such stupid questions.


So does that mean that History lessons at school should be scrapped? You learn about the past and discuss the why's what if's in that :unsure:

[Guillaume]

Indeed, are you Santayana at all.


I doubt Cheese had anything to do with the Alamo... :unsure:

[{I}{K}{E}]

Why are you making off-topic posts in a serious discussion?



Because it is posted in the lounge...

[DanB]

The Lounge isn't just a full on spamfest



well not all the time anyway :lol:

[RPerry]

enough of the time that it doesn't matter I guess.... :P

[Cheese]

Listen matey, some of us post some bloody good stuff here.

So a little respect would be in order.

Oh and as Santayana said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", to keep on topic and away from these spammers.

Unfortunately I think I got the idea for my post from British Buffy clone Hex (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-30450/) :1eye:

[DanB]

Unfortunately I think I got the idea for my post from British Buffy clone Hex. :1eye: Hex (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-30450/)


I watched the first ep of that and didn't really like it. Has it got any better then? :unsure:

[lynx]

Listen matey, some of us post some bloody good stuff here.

So a little respect would be in order.

Oh and as Santayana said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", to keep on topic and away from these spammers.
I thought he said "Oye como va". At least, that's how I heard it. :shifty:

[Everose]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101041122-782068,00.html





Is this our advanced warning?

[bigboab]

IMO the bombs were to dropped not to end the war with Japan but to stop Russia invading Japan. Russia was in a position to invade Japan at a moments notice. Had they done so they would have controlled the whole area, with no chance of the 'Western' alliance of regaining it.

America at that time wanted to invade Russia. After the fall of Berlin they wanted to carry on to Moscow. Without Japan as a base and considering the Himalayas they could ony have invaded from the European front. Their chances of winning that was zilch. Especially as the rest of the Western Alliance refused to carry on to Russia. Russia had more land forces than all the other countries put together.

[CloudSeeder]

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/frame5.htm

Germany 780,000 civilians killed
Japan 672,000 civilians killed

While I agree with the fact that a nuclear war would be horrendous, There were less Japanese civilians killed by the 2 atomic bombs dropped there than there were by the thousands dropped on Germany by the British, French, and the Americans. I personally do not believe there would have been any less civilian casualties in Japan had the Atomic bombs not been dropped than there were when we did drop the bombs. I sincerely believe there would have been considerably more casualties on both sides.

2 planes, 2 bombs, 672,000 civilians killed.
thousands of planes, thousands of bombs, 780,000 civilians killed.

I have to ask here, which was better?

[kAb]

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/frame5.htm

Germany 780,000 civilians killed
Japan 672,000 civilians killed

While I agree with the fact that a nuclear war would be horrendous, There were less Japanese civilians killed by the 2 atomic bombs dropped there than there were by the thousands dropped on Germany by the British, French, and the Americans. I personally do not believe there would have been any less civilian casualties in Japan had the Atomic bombs not been dropped than there were when we did drop the bombs. I sincerely believe there would have been considerably more casualties on both sides.

2 planes, 2 bombs, 672,000 civilians killed.
thousands of planes, thousands of bombs, 780,000 civilians killed.

I have to ask here, which was better?

Which was better?

Well with 2 bombs, and 672,000 civilians killed, common sense tells you that with one less bomb, half as many people would be killed.

Thousands of bombs, well, not nearly as many lives would be spared if one bomb was not dropped.

[lynx]

Cloudseeder, those figures for Japan include those killed by conventional bombing as well as the 2 atom bombs.

In fact more people died in the Tokyo firestorm than died as a result of the both atom bombs combined, and the firestorm was triggered by a fairly small raid when compared to those on Germany.

If Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been bombed in a similar way the death toll would probably been even higher. But the Tokyo firestorm did not convince the Japanese leadership to end the war, so there is no reason to suppose that similar events in these cities would have convinced them either.

Some will ask why it was necessary to drop a second bomb. After the Hiroshima bomb, if the Japanese had been convinced that they could not win the war they would have surrendered. They didn't. The second bomb left them in no doubt.

Edit: see, I told you they would. :rolleyes:

[Biggles]

As Stalin said, "a death is a tragedy, a million deaths is merely a statistic".






He was big on statistics too. :(

[CloudSeeder]

Cloudseeder, those figures for Japan include those killed by conventional bombing as well as the 2 atom bombs.

In fact more people died in the Tokyo firestorm than died as a result of the both atom bombs combined, and the firestorm was triggered by a fairly small raid when compared to those on Germany.

If Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been bombed in a similar way the death toll would probably been even higher. But the Tokyo firestorm did not convince the Japanese leadership to end the war, so there is no reason to suppose that similar events in these cities would have convinced them either.

Some will ask why it was necessary to drop a second bomb. After the Hiroshima bomb, if the Japanese had been convinced that they could not win the war they would have surrendered. They didn't. The second bomb left them in no doubt.

Edit: see, I told you they would. :rolleyes:This is my point. There were many less civilian casualties with the 2 atomic bombs than there would have been in using conventional warfare in invading Japan. While I am in no way advocating nuking anything that pisses the U.S. off, I feel it was the right thing to do under the circumstances at that time. In fact I feel that the U.S. bombing Japan is the only thing that actually kept Russia and the U.S. from blowing each other all to hell during the cold war. If both sides had not seen first hand the devistation caused by the nuclear bomb, one side would have pushed the button, and the other side would have retaliated, thus the end of civilization as we know it. I feel that there enough rogue nations out there that the threat of nuclear war is still very much a possibility, I just hope it can be stopped before somebody starts it.

[lynx]

Only the first line was aimed at you, I realised we were arguing the same point.

We should also remember that these were atomic bombs. These are relatively small compared to what is possible with the addition of a deuterium/tritium filled core - which is what current doomsday devices have in them, raising the "yield" by a factor of about 100.

Strange that they call it a yield, that's about the last thing it does in any definition of the word.

[Keikan]

You need to realise that at the time Americans hated 'the Japs' with a passion..

so did the chinese, well some chinese still do (like my family)

[bujub22]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/bujub22/416de8f577a4f.gif

[mogadishu]

more people died in the fire bombings of tokyo than in the atomic bombs... The atomic bomb saved a crapload of people, on both sides. Even if it didnt save japanese lives it was still worth it. In a war you value your own lives more than the enemies. In hindsight its great to think about japanese lives, but at the time, i doubt most americans would have done the same, and after all, those are the lives we are talking about.

[CloudSeeder]

I have read and heard from various sources that the U.S. powers that be were estimating up to 1 million American troops being killed in an invasion of Japan not to mention those wounded.