Game violence again

[Jon L. Obscene]

I seem to remember posting this kinda thread when GTA Vice City came out, well now GTA:SA is out the parents and BBFC and various organizations are all crying out about violent games leading kids to follow in the footsteps of games such as GTA and Manhunt etc.
The thing I don't get is in the UK (not sure about other countries) these game carry an 18+ cert, not a guidline cert, a real BBFC 18+ not to be sold or aquired to anyone below that age.
So parents go out and buy them for their kids then moan cos of the content? :huh:
I guess the same parents go out and buy their 10y/o the Exocist on dvd do they?
Either that or the shop is illegally selling these games to minors.
Talking to a couple of mates the other day at work about GTA:SA, this 9y/o lad butted in and said "I finished all the mission yesterday" , I asked him how he got the game, he said he bought it, I asked if he meant his mum bought it, No he walked into Wollworths and bought it without anyone being with him.
I'm guessing this happens a lot, quite suprised at Wolly's being a big chain store but can quite well believe it of lesser stores.

So the blame if any lays firmly with either the parents for not checking the game or the store for selling it to minors.
We don't sell alcohol to a 10y/o, same thing, same age limit (in the uk).

Is it because it's a game that some people don't respect the content because it's "Cartoon"?

Whatever way you look at it there is no blame on the Games companies here, they are providing what people want.
It's upto the parents and stores to make sure the 18+ cert is enforced.

This is an age old argument with games and was resolved when games started gaining certs, they can do no more except stop production which I would think would piss a lot of people off.

Jonno :cool:

[TheDave]

it's scientifically proven that violent games relieve stress. old ladies should quit bitching about kids getting hold of them, if they dont want their kids playing them don't let them. just STFU and dont ruin everyone else's fun. i wish i was underage again so i could really be pissed off :angry:

[Jon L. Obscene]

i wish i was underage again so i could really be pissed off :angry:

:lol: :lol: Good line.

Dude that's exactly what I'm saying, last xmas my mates nephew (11y/o) had GTA 3 and Vice city, his nan thought it was a bit violent and bad language etc, but he was ok with it, switched it off and did'nt emulate anything from it cept the occasional "Shit" when something went wrong, she thought she'd get him onto a different game, so she goes and buys him The Gettaway :frusty:
Jesus the first like of that is something like "Jesus what a fucking bitch" (best I can do from memory) , I had told her not to buy that for him, then he puts it on , she hears it and she goes nuts :frusty:
WTF!!!! :angry:
I was like "You bought it for him after I told you not to", she then took it off him, I mean how cruel is that to buy a kid something then take it off him :dry:

Jonno :cool:

[TheDave]

maybe the answer is for shops to advise parents on content. or a thing on the back like DVDs that says
violence:extreme
sex/nudity:references
language:often, mild

[Jon L. Obscene]

Yeah thats what is being talked about aparently, but personally if a game or film carries an 18+ red cert then it does'nt take a lot of working out does it?
Are people really that thick? :frusty:

Alcohol does'nt contain a warning of any sort, simply tells you the strength, but be it 2% or 50%, it's still ilegal to sell to under 18's, and places who do sell it are checked frequently, I had a 15y/o lad try to buy some a couple of months ago, I refused then 3 days later the shop got a letter congratulating the shop for refusing the lad (who was a plant)
The lotto are even doing it now.

Why can't they do it with shops who sell movies/games?

In actual fact in April it's gonna be law for any shop selling alcohol to liscence each employee for the sale of alcohol, not just the premisses.

Again, why can't they do it for games?

Jonno :cool:

Jonno :cool:

[Cheese]

maybe the answer is for shops to advise parents on content. or a thing on the back like DVDs that says
violence:extreme
sex/nudity:references
language:often, mild I believe this is what the games companies are going to try and do, educate the parents. I think too many just think that as they are "just games" they are not as bad as an 18 certificate video.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4087079.stm

GTA is an adults game, people have been complaining about it since the first one came out in 1997. But even back then the game had an official 18 certificate.

I've worked in a few of the big chain computer shops and we all received training in not selling adult games to minors. If we are caught doing so the responsibilty lies with ourselves and we are the ones open to prosecution. I'm not really surprised at somewhere like Woolworths selling it though as they aren't a specialist computer shop...:dry:

[100%]

-
Ironically they can also save your life :01:


http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/ktrk_121004_videogame.JPG


Robbers scared off by Playstation game get jail time

The burglars apparently heard audio from the video game Grand Theft Auto and thought police had them surrounded.

(12/11/04 – SANTA FE, TX) — A video game notorious for violence and mature content may have actually saved a Santa Fe family. http://a.abclocal.go.com/graphics/global/icons_black/Video.gif Watch ABC13 report (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:playVideoClip%28%27plV308732%27%29;)



Back in March, Sandy Wilson was taking care of her three grandsons when a group of men attempted to burglarize her home, pointing a gun at the kids. The children happened to be playing a video game called Grand Theft Auto at the time. The game has dozens of random police scanner messages, which blare out calls such as "This is the police! You’re surrounded!" Believe it or not, Wilson says the burglars heard that message and thought police were outside the door waiting for them.

Galveston County Asst DA Michael Elliott explained, "The police in the game were staying, 'Stop, we have you surrounded. This is the police.’ The burglar, unknowingly, thought this was the actual police and panicked ... being apprehended by Playstation."

"Thinking that it was pretty funny," recalled young victim Chaze Fisher. "How they were, like, ran off, and they got all scared over a game."

Police arrested the four men. Samuel Woodrow received a five-year prison sentence this week. Ronnie Farris is serving four years. Lucas Griffin got probation. And Zachary Brandenburg’s trial is in January.
(Copyright © 2004, KTRK-TV)

Source: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/121104_local_videogame.html

[Cheese]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Withcheese/20041201l.jpg

[Peerzy]

I played 'violent' games as a child. But when i was a teenage the violent games were hings like Doom (Thats number 1 not 3 :P ) and to be honest if game can make you do something violent then your already messed in the head. All this shit about he kid who killed someone becuase he played Manhunt. What the papers failed to tell you was that the boy was not killed for no reason but was killed in a robbery. The killer stole nearly half an Oz of cannibis from the boy before killing him. Last time i sa Manhun didnt tell the boy how to skin a joint, or steal from people. If both kids were involved in drugs then that must have affected there mental wellbeing in some way or another. And im not saying cannibis is bad in anyway and turns you violent, but i think use at an early age of 13 can affect your lives alot. You start to care more about getting your next 1/8th than eating and relatives birthdays/christmas. With drug use its not just the use of drugs but its how you get them as well. I think the killer got so caught up in himself and so badly needed a smoke he went o extream lengths.

My younger brother recently was sold a copy of GTA SA from GAME. He's 14 and they asked for no ID or anything. However after himplaying GTA 3, VC and SA he's not violent (past just being a young boy).

People blame videogames but fail to even look at the other aspects of the persons lives. Sure some kid played a violet game and killed another kid, but he was also involved with drug use.

I feel sorry for the parents of the children who have been hurt and killed as they have lost a loved one but i think they are blaming to much of it on videogames and not looking at the other parts of their relatives lives.

[NikkiD]

There was a story on this on the news recently here, after Halo 2 came out, and just before the release of the new GTA.

I mostly agree with you Jon, that these games are NOT for children. My son got GTA: Vice City as a gift a year or so ago, played it for half an hour and after I saw what it contained I made him trade it in. There is no reason a 10 year old needed to be playing that game, in my opinion. He whined like mad about it because so many of his friends were allowed to play it and violent games like it.

What I don't agree about is that it's not the game companies fault. The games aren't made for kids, the games have warnings etc, but the one place the companies are irresponsible is in their advertising. I have seen the ads for Halo2, GTA: SA and others shown on television during shows that kids/teens are watching. The worst culprit are the music stations - my stepdaughter watches nothing but, and at 1:00pm in the afternoon they show ads for GTA: SA. They also show them on primetime television (before 10:00pm) when a lot of kids/teens are watching. If the game is truly 18+ and being marketed as such, the ads should not be shown at a time that kids are normally watching, but later in the evening. This may distract kids at least a little - if they don't see it, they might not be as likely to bug their parents for it.

I know some of stores here aren't too picky about selling games to minors either. Perhaps we should start reporting them to the authorities when we do see it happening.

That said, it's the parents responsibility to decide what their kids can play, if a parent decides it's reasonable for their child to play a game as violent as this, then they have to take the responsibility if that child does emulate the game. Most kids are smart enough to separate games and real life. But for that one that isn't, I don't blame the video game company, it's not their fault, they make what sells. It's the parents fault for allowing the kids to play it. Unfortunately, these always seem to be the same parents that turn around and blame everyone else when it does happen, sue the game companies, the store that sold them etc, because of their own stupidity and refusal to take responsibility for their own kids.

[sArA]

I played 'violent' games as a child. But when i was a teenage the violent games were hings like Doom (Thats number 1 not 3 :P ) and to be honest if game can make you do something violent then your already messed in the head. All this shit about he kid who killed someone becuase he played Manhunt. What the papers failed to tell you was that the boy was not killed for no reason but was killed in a robbery. The killer stole nearly half an Oz of cannibis from the boy before killing him. Last time i sa Manhun didnt tell the boy how to skin a joint, or steal from people. If both kids were involved in drugs then that must have affected there mental wellbeing in some way or another.

My younger brother recently was sold a copy of GTA SA from GAME. He's 14 and they asked for no ID or anything. However after himplaying GTA 3, VC and SA he's not violent (past just being a young boy).

People blame videogames but fail to even look at the other aspects of the persons lives. Sure some kid played a violet game and killed another kid, but he was also involved with drug use.

I feel sorry for the parents of the children who have been hurt and killed as they have lost a loved one but i think they are blaming to much of it on videogames and not looking at the other parts of their relatives lives.


I have to agree with you here peerzy.

My son is 9 and has played GTA for years, since no 1. He is the most non-agressive kid you could ever meet, never swears and has never even hit his sister! I honestly believe that there are many many factors that can make someone violent and that games are merely a minor element in a much bigger picture of nature, nurture etc.

One of the biggest problems imo is that people are too quick to place the blame for bad behaviour onto anything except the individual. The sooner each person takes responsibility for their own actions the better. Passing the buck is so easy, but as the buck is rarely the reason for the behaviour, anything that is done to prevent the buck from being available has absolutely no effect on bad behaviour in general.

What I am clumsily trying to say is that I think that society needs to stop trying to place the blame for its ills onto someone/something else, and to face up to the fact that most bad people are bad because they choose to be bad, they are to blame and should not be able to divorce personal responsibility to avoid feeling bad about themselves. They should feel bad, they have been bad, it is 'their' fault no one elses.

[TheDave]

whats wrong with your kids playing gta? i understand it can make you feel uncomfortable but you dont have to watch them on it. games aren't a bad influence

[Jon L. Obscene]

Oh the underage playing thing you talk about, I did altho did'nt have puter til 10y/o and that was a Spectrum +2 :01:
But I been watching movies for years, I got bought American Warewolf in London on my 9th birthday, but I also had guns and plastic knives, in most parents nowadays they don't allow that either, I personally think if you're gonna beat your best friend to death with a baseball bat after playing gta or something then there's something wrong with you in the first place.
Having said that kids will emulate what they see and play and sometimes it will go wrong, but does this mean banning things like WWE?
Tough call but if a parent is pissed about it then it's upto them to check the certs and content.

@Nikki... Re ads on tv, yeah they do, they are trying to sell a product and it would seem as tho it's aimed at kids, but Nate has a Scream mask does'nt he?
Thats an 18 cert film with lots of adult stuff in it, also the amount of kids who own freddy krugger gloves or Jason masks or Robocop , terminator toys, these are all violent adult films with 18+ or equivilant and if you play down the line, kids should not even know what these films are about, let alone copy them. Yet we don't care if they are advertised in the shops or on tv do we.
Having said that it may be different in Canada but here they will advertise horro films etc durin the day same as games.
I seriously lay 0 blame on the games companies and squarly at the feat of the stores and parents/guardians.
If we blame the games companies then we must start on the movie companies too, and any other company which advertises adult products/services durin the day.
However I do agree with you, I'm simply saying it can't just be games companies targetted.

Jonno :cool:

[NikkiD]

Oh the underage playing thing you talk about, I did altho did'nt have puter til 10y/o and that was a Spectrum +2 :01:
But I been watching movies for years, I got bought American Warewolf in London on my 9th birthday, but I also had guns and plastic knives, in most parents nowadays they don't allow that either, I personally think if you're gonna beat your best friend to death with a baseball bat after playing gta or something then there's something wrong with you in the first place.
Having said that kids will emulate what they see and play and sometimes it will go wrong, but does this mean banning things like WWE?
Tough call but if a parent is pissed about it then it's upto them to check the certs and content.

@Nikki... Re ads on tv, yeah they do, they are trying to sell a product and it would seem as tho it's aimed at kids, but Nate has a Scream mask does'nt he?
Thats an 18 cert film with lots of adult stuff in it, also the amount of kids who own freddy krugger gloves or Jason masks or Robocop , terminator toys, these are all violent adult films with 18+ or equivilant and if you play down the line, kids should not even know what these films are about, let alone copy them. Yet we don't care if they are advertised in the shops or on tv do we.
Having said that it may be different in Canada but here they will advertise horro films etc durin the day same as games.
I seriously lay 0 blame on the games companies and squarly at the feat of the stores and parents/guardians.
If we blame the games companies then we must start on the movie companies too, and any other company which advertises adult products/services durin the day.
However I do agree with you, I'm simply saying it can't just be games companies targetted.

Jonno :cool:

I didn't say that I thought it was acceptable for kids to be running around in Freddy or Jason masks.

Yes, he owns a scream mask, I didn't buy him the Halloween costume, my mother did. I had the argument with him last year that it was inappropriate. He hasn't seen the movie (as far as I know, alas, his father lets him watch pretty much anything). He may have watched the edited for television version which shows about as much gore as an episode of Law & Order.

And yes, I do lay blame on movie companies too. They make movies with content that is not suitable for children, but then make ads that target children. Half the teen flicks out these days are rated towards adults because of sexual content, language, violence, etc. Yet I don't know many adults who want to sit and watch the crap. I'm not paying to go to the theater to see a bunch of post adolescents pretending to be adolescents. I may watch them on television, but I'm not paying to see them. Who wants to see them? Mostly kids the age depicted - who can't because of the rating of the film.

I'm not saying it's totally the game companies fault. I'm saying that if they truly do not intend for kids to play their 18+ games, then they shouldn't show the commercial during a PG rated television program at 1pm in the afternoon. That's irresponsible marketing. That may be the television station's fault as much as the game company. Movie companies do the same thing. Besides that, the rating system for films has become increasingly lax over the past few years. What would have been rated R 10 years ago, now gets a PG13 or a 14A, and what would have gotten a 14A gets a PG nowdays.

I'll repeat, as far as I'm concerned, it's the responsiblility of the parents to judge what their kids can and can't watch/play. If they go out and buy a game for their kids that has an 18+ rating, they have absolutely no basis on which to blame the game companies when they discover it's violent. I don't let my kids watch/play anything until I've seen it first or had a review of it from someone I trust.

[Jon L. Obscene]

Ok so shall I now argue with you about dissagreeing but agreeing? :lol:

I'm just gonna say I agree, cos you addressed all point how I thought you would, I was just trying to make it clear, pisses me off that Games get so much shit for doing what we want, you love Doom 3 right? You said Nate did'nt like it, freaked him out?
But you don't want them to stop making games cos of kids etc (not saying you do, just mean that people blame the game co's as if they want them to stop)
The content of a game is on the back of the box, if it says.......Ok having just looked at the back of the Vice city box there's nothing to actually say it's as violent as it is, simply says They want Tommy dead and he will take over the city, so I'm actually turning my argument on this to completely side with you Nikki, my brain missinforming me again. Apologies.

I bow down :)

Jonno :cool:

[NikkiD]

Ok so shall I now argue with you about dissagreeing but agreeing? :lol:

I'm just gonna say I agree, cos you addressed all point how I thought you would, I was just trying to make it clear, pisses me off that Games get so much shit for doing what we want, you love Doom 3 right? You said Nate did'nt like it, freaked him out?
But you don't want them to stop making games cos of kids etc (not saying you do, just mean that people blame the game co's as if they want them to stop)
The content of a game is on the back of the box, if it says.......Ok having just looked at the back of the Vice city box there's nothing to actually say it's as violent as it is, simply says They want Tommy dead and he will take over the city, so I'm actually turning my argument on this to completely side with you Nikki, my brain missinforming me again. Apologies.

I bow down :)

Jonno :cool:

:lol:

I let Nate play Doom 3 for a total of 3 minutes, because he wouldn't drop it, and he wouldn't believe me when I said it was too scary for him to play. It did in fact, scare the living crap out of him. He hasn't mentioned it since.

I do agree with you that it is a parent's responsibility to judge what is suitable for their own child. For that matter, what is okay for one child, might disturb another. What I was disagreeing with you about was that we don't care what movies are advertised on television, and pointing out that I do lay blame on movie companies for being irresponsible in their marketing.

Now lick my boots. :01:

[TheDave]

he could have found out it was too scary for him his own way. you think if you hadn't told him no he would grow up to be an axe murderer?

[NikkiD]

No, I don't think he'll grow up to be an axe murderer. :lol:

What I do think is that there is a time for children to just be children. To play with their friends and build snow forts, to ride their bikes or skateboards, to watch cartooons, to play Super Mario and Spyro the Dragon, to just be kids. They are in enough of a hurry to grow up and they do grow up fast enough without me pushing them by allowing them to do things that are designed for adults. They are already faced with enough violence in the media just because of the world around us, I don't see a need to expose them to more of it than they have to see.

When I'm talking about this, I'm not talking about 16 or 17 year olds. When my kids are that age, they probably will be allowed to play some of the games mentioned (probably not all), at least in my own home.

[Jon L. Obscene]

Now lick my boots. :01:

Sounds good to me :w00t:

What was this thread about again? :unsure: :lol:

Ok

What I do think is that there is a time for children to just be children.

I totally agree with that statement 100% :)

Jonno :cool:

[TheDave]

"pushing them by allowing them" :huh:

telling em what they cant do is pushing them. if they play a game they like, they play it. if they try a game and dont like it, they dont play it.

i dont think a game can have any psychological effect apart from maybe a sleepless night and an image you wont forget. let em learn from their own mistakes

[NikkiD]

Telling kids what they can and can't do is part of being a parent and raising kids. I wouldn't be very responsible if I didn't set any limits at all and let my kids do anything they want. My 11 year old used to like playing with matches too. Should I go out and buy him a box of them because he likes it and thought it was fun? I choose not to nurture violence in my kids. A kid can have just as much fun playing a non-violent video game as they can playing a violent one. Mine love playing Spyro, Sim City, Jak and Daxter.

Part of the reason so many kids want the violent games is because of the taboo involved - they're not supposed to be playing it because it's supposed to be for 18 year olds!! Wow, I gotta play that!!! I doesn't even have to be fun to them, so long as it's something that most of their friends aren't allowed to do. At least that's what I've witnessed with my kids and their friends.

[Spam-King]

What parents have to realize is before video gaming people still use to kill, when sonic came out it didn’t make kids or adults collect rings, so IMO video gaming has no affect on a Childs/adult mind.

Putting an 18 stamp on it is not fair, it matters more about maturity. I know many kids who are more mature than grown ups.

[Jon L. Obscene]

i dont think a game can have any psychological effect apart from maybe a sleepless night and an image you wont forget. let em learn from their own mistakes

No that's actually not true, my Nephew played Resident Evil (his other uncle got it for him) he was 8y/o at the time, he still has nightmares about it, he's freaked my sis out in the middle of the night screaming in fear cos the zombies, admittedly not very often but has happen about 4 or 5 times this past year, and is terrified of Dobermans, no other dog, just those, he's now 11.

Jonno :cool:

[Jon L. Obscene]

My 11 year old used to like playing with matches too.

Really? Me too :01:

I had a bonfire in my bedroom :01:

My mum said I wa'nt allowed to do that anymore, so I bought a lighter :devil:
Turns out she did'nt mean I was'nt allowed matches, but I was'nt allowed to make fire either :(

*in Beavis voice*
Fire rawks, yeah heh heh fire!! FIRE!! FIREFIRFIRE!!!! :01:

Jonno :cool:

[TheDave]

i'm sure he's a special case, i've got cousins younger than ten that play 18+ games an theres nothing wrong with them.

this isn't comparable with playing with fire either. matches are dangerous, games aren't

[Jon L. Obscene]

lol no Games are dangerous in the respect that kids will emulate them , whether intentional or accidental, they give kids idea's, shit after playing Vice City I walked out in the street and had the urge to mug someone :shifty: with a chainsaw :devil:

And like Nikki said Dave, different things affect people different ways, you could probably find many kids who've been affected by movies or games, some wont let on and no one ever knows, but you can't say beause my Nephew is affected and yours is'nt that he's a special case :dry:
He's a bright lad, brighter now than I ever will be, it just freaked him out.

Jonno :cool:

[NikkiD]

Really? Me too :01:

I had a bonfire in my bedroom :01:

My mum said I wa'nt allowed to do that anymore, so I bought a lighter :devil:
Turns out she did'nt mean I was'nt allowed matches, but I was'nt allowed to make fire either :(

*in Beavis voice*
Fire rawks, yeah heh heh fire!! FIRE!! FIREFIRFIRE!!!! :01:

Jonno :cool:

I took Nate to the Fire Department and had the Fire Chief talk to him, and told him what fire can do. To my knowledge, he hasn't picked up a lighter or matches since.

As far as playing violent games, I never once blamed video games for violence in society - it's just the opposite. Violence in society is what sets the trend for games.

As far as kids playing violent games, I stated my reason for it. I don't feel that it's necessary to push them into growing up before they're ready to. They see enough violence in their everyday life, they don't need it in their playtime as well. The kids have lots of fun playing games that are geared toward their own age. I don't particularly care if the kids think I'm not cool because I won't let them do things that some other mom's let their kids do, I'm not running a popularity contest.

As far as games not affecting kids/adults minds, that is untrue. No I don't think someone will go out and blow someone's head off just because they played GTA and did it. However, after playing Ratchet and Clank for a few hours one night we had the kids in the car and were driving past a series of lampposts and one of the kids remarked that they wished they had a wrench so that they could bust them and get the bolts out of them. They were joking of course, but the fact that they made the connection between the two shows that it did have an effect.

I have a question, how many people that are defending children playing violent games are 1. over the age of 18, and 2. have kids of their own?

My thoughts on being a parent, and what I would or would not allow my kids to have significantly changed since I actually became a parent.

[Jon L. Obscene]

I don't have kids :(
Still am one tho :01:
I'm actually only 17 :shifty:

And you said "As far" a lot of times there :lol: Good points well made tho :)

Heh who was it wanted to smash the lamp posts? :lol:
Also I been playing CSI and have since been dusting stuff with Four in case there's finger prints :shifty:

Jonno :cool:

[NikkiD]

I don't have kids :(
Still am one tho :01:
I'm actually only 17 :shifty:

And you said "As far" a lot of times there :lol: Good points well made tho :)

Heh who was it wanted to smash the lamp posts? :lol:
Also I been playing CSI and have since been dusting stuff with Four in case there's finger prints :shifty:

Jonno :cool:

It sounded good in my head... :lol: I should probably proofread more often. :lol:

It was Greg and Casey. And me. :ph34r:

:lol: @ CSI - I was playing that the last time my stepkids were here, and Greg now walks around with q-tips taking DNA samples.

[Jon L. Obscene]

I had a feeling it was them 2 :lol:

Heh I never thought of that *goes off to finf q-tips using magnifine glass and tourch* :01: Might interrogate the cat too :shifty:

Jonno :cool:

[sArA]

Well, I guess I have to come in here again as I am both a parent and over 18 :)

I can only state from experience of my son, but as I already said he is totally non-violent in nature despite playing GTA games. However, he chooses not to play Doom3 or others of that nature. In fact he has no interest and has never even asked to play them.

He also plays Harvest Moon, Pokemon, Yu Ghi Oh and Monopoly (he has several versions :). He likes football (soccer for you lot across the pond :) ) and watching Nickelodeon. Today he was the narrator for the school carol concert and did a lovely job. :)

I feel he is pretty well balanced, although I am aware that not all kids are the same and my judgement is biased.

[3RA1N1AC]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Withcheese/20041201l.jpg
lolz. the guy in the final frame. whenever i'm reading amateur movie/music/game reviews, there's always somebody telling a ridiculous lie about how the product was so terrible that they only sampled it for 5 minutes before destroying it and throwing it in the garbage. AS IF. somebody oughta find the people who write those reviews, destroy them, and throw them in the garbage. also: if i read another one of those fugglin' terrible reviews online, i am going to destroy my PC and throw it in the garbage.