Naive thoughts about US treatment of Prisoners

[zedaxax]

*no copy & paste*

http://www.amnesty.org/images/ap_graphics_bank/ap_iraq_woman_detainee.jpg

Yes *time* has passed and it is all, not so interesting any more
as goes with the Tsunami
how easy we customize and forget

Exactly..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/zedaxax/pppppp.jpg

A few days ago i saw *"One"* USA military person being put into jail for many years in relation to his treatment to Iraqi pow.

Good, i thought...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/images/abu-ghurayb-prison-abuse02.jpg


but..mm...what...only one? (greedy or simply...)
what about all those sstanding around, "chanting" or probably "ignoring" the fact that a human who never in his life went to your country,got attacked and is now on Reality "public TV" (+ W.e.B)

Why only one guy??????

Is he "our" Martyr?????

I haven't gotten all the news updates but, shouldn't every single mofo even closely related to any of those scenes be "judged"?


sacrify one - and the world is satisfied?

yes- we forget easy

No - I'm not after more pain......
and can understand why we go to these extremes,
in order to get info or .....
but humans at one time decided that "no"(geneva) we can't go that far...yet what about pure instinct?

without the digital evolution this "free" knowledge, which we get thru the web we would not have known about it.
be prepared for more.

none the less

Why was Only one Person was Condemned for the "torture" in Abu Ghraib????
http://www.rp-online.de/layout/fotos/303x239/184456_US_IRAQ_PRISONER_ABUSE_FREDERICK_DCWAP107412acfec0003.jpg

[Everose]

It is my understanding there will be more trials for sick actions such as this in America. It is also my understanding there have been trials in both England and elsewhere for sick actions such as these for soldiers other than American Soldiers as I read about them in UK papers.

When I read of the English Soldier's trial, I thought about mentioning it in here. But I thought again because two wrongs don't make a right. :no:

One of my sources of info...... (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4038498)

[ruthie]

it seems that many of the people involved got the proverbial slap on the wrist, when they should have had heavy sentences. What I resent the most though, is, no higher ups are taking responsibility and serving time. This goes straight up the ladder, and yet....these higher ups have been busy going to balls and parties.

[Everose]

I guess I thought the officer there and in charge was the first one to trial in the United States, Ruthie. And I thought he got 8 years?

I will never condone what these soldiers have done. I am watching with interest the trials in the Netherlands, England and America.

I do wonder...... how do the Iraqi insurgents treat captured Iraqi's, and alliance soldiers?

[Samurai]

I do wonder...... how do the Iraqi insurgents treat captured Iraqi's, and alliance soldiers?

we already know and that seems to get forgotten too.

[ruthie]

I guess I thought the officer there and in charge was the first one to trial in the United States, Ruthie. And I thought he got 13 years?

I will never condone what these soldiers have done. I am watching with interest the trials in the Netherlands, England and America.

I do wonder...... how do the Iraqi insurgents treat captured Iraqi's, and alliance soldiers?
Treatment hasn't been great all around. I have to say though, that I look at the Iraqi's as freedom fighters..most of them. I do not include those that execute, behead, etc. Lots of the troops involved seem to be getting off pretty lightly. This problem (at least I see it as such) is the lack of accountability by Bush, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Condi, Cambone, etc. They actually looked for ways to legalize torture..which cannot really be done.
I believe either 10 or 13 Chinese prisoners were just released.
a great book to read is "Naked In Iraq", by Anne Garrels. she is an NPR reporter, and she was in Iraq before the invasion, up until March or April 2003. I read it a few weeks ago, and it is very informative.
Anyway, I resent the no-accountability clause built into this invasion. This administration should be able to be indicted for War Crimes..at least that's how I see it. I still believe Iran will be next.

[ruthie]

I forgot to add..Good Morning, Everose. Hope you got more sleep then me...I haven't had any yet. LOL

[ruthie]

Here is an example of what I'm saying:




U.S. Soldier Sentenced in Iraqi's Killing
Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. military court found a 1st Cavalry Division soldier guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the fatal shooting of an Iraqi translator and sentenced him to three years in prison, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge.

Spc. Charley L. Hoosier also was convicted of making a false statement to investigators following the Nov. 24 shooting of the female translator, which occurred at an Army forward base in Baghdad, the U.S. command said.

Another soldier, Spc. Rami Dajani, was convicted of making a false statement in the case but involuntary manslaughter charges against him were dropped. Dajani was sentenced to 18 months confinement, reduction in rank and a bad conduct discharge, the military said.

According to the U.S. statement, Dajani supplied the handgun that Hoosier used in the shooting, then denied involvement in the death.
source (http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/breaking_news/10710138.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp)

[Arm]

What do you expect when a large country attacks a small soverign nation like Iraq?

I just hope every idiot who supported the War in Iraq immediatly be drafted and sent to be a foot soldier. And preferably, wrongfully be arrested and be send to Abu Ghraib to be tortured. :shifty:

[Everose]

I forgot to add..Good Morning, Everose. Hope you got more sleep then me...I haven't had any yet. LOL


Morning, Ruthie..... :D Sleep is important. :01:

I think I slept enough to last me through the morning! ;)

[Samurai]

Torture doesn't just happen from our side. Both parties do it. Remember that.

[manker]

Torture doesn't just happen from our side. Both parties do it. Remember that.Well that doesn't mean we shouldn't punish those that did it on our side.

We can only set examples that we wish for others to follow. Whether the Iraqi soldiers get their just deserts for torturing our soldiers is neither here nor there when we're dealing with our own crimes.

[ruthie]

@manker..agreed. Here is something else to check out:
American Justice?

Disturbing pictures appear to show an Iraqi man arrested and then executed by U.S. troops

If you have information relating to these images, please forward it to [email protected] (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7802.htm)

[Samurai]

Well that doesn't mean we shouldn't punish those that did it on our side.

We can only set examples that we wish for others to follow. Whether the Iraqi soldiers get their just deserts for torturing our soldiers is neither here nor there when we're dealing with our own crimes.

Oh I didn't say they should get away with it... far from it.

It's just that these pictures are quick to surface after it's happened, whereas I'm more concerned with those times when no pictures were taken if you know what I mean.

As I said before, it's not only America, UK etc that have done these things. Every country in the world has used torture at some point in history. And that includes Iraq ;)

[manker]

Oh I didn't say they should get away with it... far from it.

It's just that these pictures are quick to surface after it's happened, whereas I'm more concerned with those times when no pictures were taken if you know what I mean.

As I said before, it's not only America, UK etc that have done these things. Every country in the world has used torture at some point in history. And that includes Iraq ;)Hmm. It's now that I'm concerned about though. Again it is wholly irrelevant what's gone on in the past.

I do appreciate that you're trying to present the big picture, particularly to those who attempt to paint our soldiers blacker than they really are. That's fair enough. I mean it's not as if you're justifying or attempting to make the crimes appear any less heinous, right?


@ Ruthie, I can't really see why that appears as if those soldiers have executed the man on the ground. They could be different Iraqis in the pics for one thing and the time lapse between the photos is not given, anything could have happened.

The soldiers are people too, I'd prefer to give the ones in the pictures the benefit of the doubt - I'm not pretending unwarrated executions didn't happen, but that pic proves nothing.

[ruthie]

this is true..posted it for interest sake. As you saw, he asked if anyone had info about it.

[Sid Hartha]

Remember: they could have avoided all this if they just would have turned over their weapons of mass-destruction.

Serves them right.

[manker]

Remember: they could have avoided all this if they just would have turned over their weapons of mass-destruction.

Serves them right.What are you talking about.

Even if your point had some merit, which it doesn't, then it was Saddam who refused to comply with UN mandates, not his soldiers. To say it serves them right to get tortured and smeared with their own excrement because of what their leader did is absolutely abhorrent.

As an aside, I don't know if you heard but there weren't any WMD in Iraq. We looked, couldn't find any.

[Samurai]

Hmm. It's now that I'm concerned about though. Again it is wholly irrelevant what's gone on in the past.

I do appreciate that you're trying to present the big picture, particularly to those who attempt to paint our soldiers blacker than they really are. That's fair enough. I mean it's not as if you're justifying or attempting to make the crimes appear any less heinous, right?

That's right. I've said it was absolutely disgusting what happened (at the time) and I still believ that :)

[vidcc]

Remember: they could have avoided all this if they just would have turned over their weapons of mass-destruction.

Serves them right.


words fail me :blink:


on the subject.

When we treat anyone like this we cease to be soldiers, we cease to be liberators, we cease to be civilised humans.
this goes for WHOEVER does it, be they Iraqi, American, British or any other nation.... This point has no racial side.
To say that someone else does it is simply removing any defense for ones actions.

All concerned should be punished.

[Sid Hartha]

What are you talking about.

Even if your point had some merit, which it doesn't, then it was Saddam who refused to comply with UN mandates, not his soldiers. To say it serves them right to get tortured and smeared with their own excrement because of what their leader did is absolutely abhorrent.

As an aside, I don't know if you heard but there weren't any WMD in Iraq. We looked, couldn't find any.

You have a keen eye for the obvious - good for you.


i·ro·ny

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect, sometimes used to illustrate an absurdity.
See Synonyms at wit1.
Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
Dramatic irony.
Socratic irony.

[Arm]

Remember: they could have avoided all this if they just would have turned over their weapons of mass-destruction.

Serves them right.
Youre either a complete, fucking idiot or have an offensive sense of humor so grand it hasent been seen since Bansai Kittens.
:huh:

[Biggles]

Youre either a complete, fucking idiot or have an offensive sense of humor so grand it hasent been seen since Bansai Kittens.
:huh:

Arm

This called irony - it was actually quite clever and funny and was a lot more sophisticated than the Banzai Kittens.

[manker]

You have a keen eye for the obvious - good for you.Your post wasn't ironic in the slightest, that only works if we knew anything about your character; as it was I assumed you were 13 and really believed it. Given the context of this thread I also think your comment was in particular bad taste.

I see a lot of opinions I disagree with, we all do. If we put them down to the poster being ironic then this message board would be rather quiet.

So post what you really think.

[Biggles]

Your post wasn't ironic in the slightest, that only works if we knew anything about your character; as it was I assumed you were 13 and really believed it. Given the context of this thread I also think your comment was in particular bad taste.

I see a lot of opinions I disagree with, we all do. If we put them down to the poster being ironic then this message board would be rather quiet.

So post what you really think.

I find myself in the rare position of disagreeing on the use of language.

That there were no WMDs is irrefutable, that the demand was to give them up is also irrefutable. The illogical logic that the Iraqis could have been spared war and torture if they had only given them up is what I think Sid Hartha is saying.

On the other hand I have had a crap day and my head hurts.
:ermm:

[Sid Hartha]

Your post wasn't ironic in the slightest...

incorrect.

[manker]

I find myself in the rare position of disagreeing on the use of language.

That there were no WMDs is irrefutable, that the demand was to give them up is also irrefutable. The illogical logic that the Iraqis could have been spared war and torture if they had only given them up is what I think Sid Hartha is saying.

On the other hand I have had a crap day and my head hurts.
:ermm:After having it being pointed out that Sid isn't 13 and isn't some racist idiot, then yes. I can see that irony would be present.

The fact that we're all faceless and no-one knows him from a bar of soap negates that. Did you know the post was ironic before the resultant clarification.

Maybe you're more intuitive but I just thought he was a trolling dickhead.

[Biggles]

After having it being pointed out that Sid isn't 13 and isn't some racist idiot, then yes. I can see that irony would be present.

The fact that we're all faceless and no-one knows him from a bar of soap negates that. Did you know the post was ironic before the resultant clarification.

Maybe you're more intuitive but I just thought he was a trolling dickhead.

I think perhaps it is context. I have seen other things posted by Sid Hartha that I considered sensitive and intelligent therefore I suspect my brain read intent above the words.

You are correct, we are faceless and it is only through time that our natures reveal. If you posted something with poor grammar I would look for the joke - a newcomer would not understand.

[manker]

incorrect.After thinking it through, I have to concede that. However, in it's original context you can see my above post.

Irony is all very well but in this instance and in an environment where people exist that are capable of posting what you did and meaning every word, I feel it's an inappropriate tool - particularly when the thread invokes strong emotions. There have been worse things posted, in the lounge anyway, and the poster wasn't being ironic.

I daresay if you posted more and I was aware of your stance/character your ironic comment would have been accepted as intended.

====

Biggles; you're quite right of course, I think maybe I was a bit tetchy because of the subject matter.

[Sid Hartha]

My sig - on the other hand - isn't the least bit ironic, and a very telling indicator of where I'm coming from.

As is the case with most of the other members here.


A little back story: My original post was actually cribbed from an actual comment I overheard one morning on my way to work. Your initial reaction was very close to the way I felt when I heard it. After a bit of argument - this was a complete stranger, mind you - I was dismissed as a naive liberal. "Of course they have WMDs, everybody knows that. You liberals just don't want to face up to the facts." How ironic it is that after all we went through (risking our own soldiers, baiting even more terrorism, torturing Iraqi prisoners to get "information" etc.), it turns out there wasn't any "information" to get in the first place.

[vidcc]

I have to say that i didn't get it...but now that it has been cleared up no harm done :)

Not knowing Sids style it is hard to tell, plus we have a few people on here that do still believe the WMDs exist and that Saddam was behind 911.. perhaps j2s favourite ;) will help us in future :)

[manker]

Shit! I hadn't noticed your sig :lol:

Yeah, that may have saved some bother.

[dwightfry]

Seriously?!? You guys didn't get his post? I read it, smiled and thought "good point". Decided I was going to tell some friends about it. And then proceeded to roll my eyes when Mankor replied, the next thing I new Vid was, and then Arm. I've never seen a post so go far over your heads before. I'm downright stunned.

[ruthie]

You have a keen eye for the obvious - good for you.
Ah, I love that strip.."Get your War On" That is Sid Hartha's sig..
see this (http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war43.html)

[j2k4]

...we have a few people on here that do still believe the WMDs exist and that Saddam was behind 911.. perhaps j2s favourite ;) will help us in future :)

I believe WMDs either existed in Iraq, or were moved/hidden outside Iraq.

That they did exist (exclusive of nukes) is beyond question.

Why Saddam was so obstinate as to the U.N. resolutions is somewhat a mystery, apart from the fact he felt safe flouting them (see: Oil-For-Food), once it became clear the U.S. was going to invade.

As to your silliness vis a vis Saddam and 9/11, I have never harbored that particular belief, and have not the slightest idea where you derived that I did.

[vidcc]

I believe WMDs either existed in Iraq, or were moved/hidden outside Iraq.

That they did exist (exclusive of nukes) is beyond question.

Why Saddam was so obstinate as to the U.N. resolutions is somewhat a mystery, apart from the fact he felt safe flouting them (see: Oil-For-Food), once it became clear the U.S. was going to invade.

As to your silliness vis a vis Saddam and 9/11, I have never harbored that particular belief, and have not the slightest idea where you derived that I did.
the post only mentioned you because of your use of winkey :rolleyes:

[vidcc]

Seriously?!? You guys didn't get his post? I read it, smiled and thought "good point". Decided I was going to tell some friends about it. And then proceeded to roll my eyes when Mankor replied, the next thing I new Vid was, and then Arm. I've never seen a post so go far over your heads before. I'm downright stunned.
i believe you


really

[j2k4]

i believe you


really

Really?



:P

[manker]

Sure, dwightfry has always seemed smart to me. I'm not only stunned but downright stunned that it was questioned.


Really.

[dwightfry]

Sure, dwightfry has always seemed smart to me. I'm not only stunned but downright stunned that it was questioned.


Really.


really?



:P

[UKResident]

On my computer Sid Hartha doesn't have a sig, others do, he doesn't. l still think his post was wrong, hardly ironic when it was in isolation. l was about to post in defence of Manker, but thankfully l don't have to, that was too close for comfort.

[ruthie]

You might want to check out the Human Rights Watch Report "The New Iraq?
Torture and ill-treatment of detainees in Iraqi custody" (http://hrw.org/reports/2005/iraq0105/) on abuse..just released.
Here is another tidbit..about the lack of accountability for war crimes.




Military files describe alleged detainee abuse across Iraq

By Gail Gibson
Tribune Newspapers: Baltimore Sun
Published January 25, 2005


The Army launched dozens of investigations into detainee abuses across Iraq in the past two years, but case after case was closed with U.S. troops facing no charges or only minimal punishment, military records released Monday show.

The documents, internal reports from more than 50 criminal investigations, challenge the government's claims last year that photographed abuses at Abu Ghraib were the isolated pranks of a few low-ranking soldiers. The records describe alleged misdeeds at U.S. facilities across Iraq that are, in some instances, strikingly similar to the publicized abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

The records include new allegations of forced sodomy, the use of dogs to frighten detainees and severe beatings of hooded and handcuffed prisoners. In one case, investigators determined that a commander and three members of an Army Special Forces unit--none of whom were publicly identified--had committed murder by luring an Afghan civilian to a roadblock before shooting him.

No court-martial was convened in the case, according to the records released Monday. Only one of the soldiers was punished, receiving a written reprimand.

In another case, a soldier told investigators: "I saw what I think were war crimes on the people of Iraq." But in closing the case, agents with the Army Criminal Investigation Command said there was "insufficient evidence to prove or disprove" the soldier's claims from the Camp Red detention facility in Baghdad--a finding repeated often in the investigative files.

ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero said the investigative records released by the government so far--obtained through the organization's ongoing lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act--show a pattern of "woefully inadequate" investigations.

An Army spokesman said Monday that the files, many of them heavily redacted, do not give the full picture of how seriously the military has responded to allegations of detainee abuse.

"The Army has aggressively investigated all credible allegations of detainee abuse and held soldiers accountable for their actions," Army spokesman Dov Schwartz said.

Schwartz said there have been more than 300 criminal investigations launched, and more than 100 military members have faced penalties through courts martial, non-judicial punishment or administrative action.

But Amrit Singh, an ACLU staff attorney, said that in some cases, "investigations were abandoned before relevant witnesses were questioned." In other cases, she said, investigations were dropped because the abuses were considered "standard operating procedure."

The soldier at Camp Red in Baghdad, for instance, told investigators that "a lot of pictures were taken," some showing the "mistreatment or crimes against the people that were caught."

"Sometimes there would be prisoner's [sic] with sand bags on their heads, standing on a brick with their hands behind their head, and concertina wire all around them," the soldier said in a sworn statement about detainee treatment at the facility in November 2003, roughly the same time the worst abuses took place at Abu Ghraib. "If they got off the brick they were manhandled."

The files included probes into at least seven deaths. In one case, investigators reported that poor record keeping meant they could determine only that a detainee who died at Camp Bucca in Iraq, "possibly died between Apr.-Sep. 03."

Other abuse allegations included:

A 73-year-old Iraqi woman told Army investigators she was subjected to sexual abuses and that a dog was let loose in a room where she and three other women were being held. Records indicate the investigation was closed.

An October 2003 investigation found the soldiers who routinely stole money from detainees at a downtown Baghdad facility--what they called a "Robin Hood Tax"--also were accused of beating hooded and handcuffed prisoners. Two soldiers were found guilty at courts-martial, according to the investigation file. One received a reprimand and fine, the other was reduced in rank and confined for 60 days.
source (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0501250258jan25,1,2511006.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)