who is responsible?

[vidcc]

I saw a story on Scarborough country the other day about pre paid "porn cards" which were on sale in New York at news stands. The idea being that one can purchase a pre paid card in the same way as a phone card and buy time to view pay to view porn sites on the Internet instead of using your credit card directly.

The problem was that the operators at these news stands sold some cards to teenagers under 18 years despite it clearly stating on the cards that they were for sale to adults only.
You can see the story here (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/)

one anti porn group is saying that the operators of the porn sites and the card distributors should be charged with providing porn to children. The porn site operators are saying that if any charges arise it should be against the vendor that sold the cards to minors and that they have done no wrong because the sites are intended for consenting adults only and they make this quite clear.
I would add that the anti porn group taking the case wants to ban pornography completely, even for consenting adults.

So who should be held accountable?

My view is that the vendor should be charged for selling to minors...he should have checked for ID before selling such items. Tobacco and alcohol industries don't get charged if a store sells their product to minors so I see no difference here.

Parents should act responsibly if they allow their children Internet access

[DanB]

The vendor has to be responsible, the porn provider has done their bit by labelling the cards and the site as 18's and above only.

Although this is America where fat people sue McDonalds for making them fat so who knows :lol: :lol:

[Busyman]

I saw a story on Scarborough country the other day about pre paid "porn cards" which were on sale in New York at news stands. The idea being that one can purchase a pre paid card in the same way as a phone card and buy time to view pay to view porn sites on the Internet instead of using your credit card directly.

The problem was that the operators at these news stands sold some cards to teenagers under 18 years despite it clearly stating on the cards that they were for sale to adults only.
You can see the story here (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/)

one anti porn group is saying that the operators of the porn sites and the card distributors should be charged with providing porn to children. The porn site operators are saying that if any charges arise it should be against the vendor that sold the cards to minors and that they have done no wrong because the sites are intended for consenting adults only and they make this quite clear.
I would add that the anti porn group taking the case wants to ban pornography completely, even for consenting adults.

So who should be held accountable?

My view is that the vendor should be charged for selling to minors...he should have checked for ID before selling such items. Tobacco and alcohol industries don't get charged if a store sells their product to minors so I see no difference here.

Parents should act responsibly if they allow their children Internet access
Not too much more to add there. What you said is the only logical course of action.
DanB makes the good point though that our country is litigation central.

We've got illogical laws and solutions.

[j2k4]

Yes to all.

The laws (the proper ones, anyway) are in place already.

The downfall is the enforcement part of the equation, and that begins with lawyers who obfuscate on behalf of the guilty, and endeavor to marginalize the blame by sharing it around if it cannot be escaped altogether.

This is one of those headlines that makes a reader pine for resolution, when the likelihood is that the story will not be followed with anything approaching the attention it deserves.

I would regard any subsequent or extended coverage of this story to be exceptional.

[bigboab]

I dont know if this has been discussed. But I see a more serious side to this. The sale of these cards could mean that paedophiles could not be traced when they visit kiddie porn sites. I think this is a loophole and should be closed immediately. :angry:

[DanB]

I dont know if this has been discussed.

Do you not read before you post? :unsure:


I am sure before these cards were allowed to go on sale it was ensured that only legitimate porn companies that were legal could provide such a service

[vidcc]

I dont know if this has been discussed. But I see a more serious side to this. The sale of these cards could mean that paedophiles could not be traced when they visit kiddie porn sites. I think this is a loophole and should be closed immediately. :angry:
Added to what Danb pointed out if the cards where sold on behalf of a child porn site then there would be a case in law to go after the producers of the cards as well as the site owners as child porn is not legal...therefore prepaid cards for such sites are not legal.

edit: upon a second glance that is just what Danb said and not an addition. :wacko:

[Arm]

I dont know if this has been discussed. But I see a more serious side to this. The sale of these cards could mean that paedophiles could not be traced when they visit kiddie porn sites. I think this is a loophole and should be closed immediately. :angry:
I doubt kiddie porn could be commerically sold so openly as legal porn. I would explain why but I hope everyone could figure out. ;)

This reminds me of the idiot who called me a pedophile on here. Boab, that wouldnt of been you by any chance, would it? :dry:

Oh yeah, another thing. How exactly is a minor viewing porno hurting them? That never made sense to me. Really how is anything thats age-restricted to minors hurt them? Well I mean hurt in such a way that it must be restricted by age anyway?

[bigboab]

If the cards are available these people will find a loophole to use them to access kiddie porn with anonimity. Why were they introduced in the first place. to provide anonimity to husbands and wives to prevent their partners finding out? Or is there another reason that I have not thought about.


@ Dan!. I just flicked through the thread and added that proviso in case I had maybe missed something( football called). :rolleyes: Obviously the subject had not been raised until then. So I must be flicking good. :lol:

[Arm]

Yes you could misuse anything to help distribute child porn. These porn cards are no different.

[vidcc]

If the cards are available these people will find a loophole to use them to access kiddie porn with anonimity. Why were they introduced in the first place. to provide anonimity to husbands and wives to prevent their partners finding out? Or is there another reason that I have not thought about.


so do you suggest we stop all things that have a legitimate use because they may be used illegitimatly?.... the Internet springs to mind...if we ban that then it couldn't be used by those scum...right?

[hobbes]

I initially thought that the point of the cards was to ease the fear of those who don't want to give their credit card information over the internet.

Boab is right in that it would allow pedophiles to surf and spank in anonimity.

I just hadn't been thinking about that.

I think I would rather give my credit card number than have to go to a store and ask for a "porn card".

But I might do so if I wanted to access illegal stuff.

[Everose]

My view is that the vendor should be charged for selling to minors...he should have checked for ID before selling such items. Tobacco and alcohol industries don't get charged if a store sells their product to minors so I see no difference here.




We just had a little 'sting' operation in an area city. Minors buying tobacco. The clerks themselves got ticketed and charged, and their names in the paper..........paid fines to the tune of $260.00's each. Seems kind of harsh, but then it probably only takes one time of this happening before they check everyone's ID.

[bigboab]

I doubt kiddie porn could be commerically sold so openly as legal porn. I would explain why but I hope everyone could figure out. ;)

This reminds me of the idiot who called me a pedophile on here. Boab, that wouldnt of been you by any chance, would it? :dry:

Oh yeah, another thing. How exactly is a minor viewing porno hurting them? That never made sense to me. Really how is anything thats age-restricted to minors hurt them? Well I mean hurt in such a way that it must be restricted by age anyway?

I have never called anybody that. I suggest that you check back on threads before you make such inferences in future. :angry:

[UcanRock2]

Added to what Danb pointed out if the cards where sold on behalf of a child porn site then there would be a case in law to go after the producers of the cards as well as the site owners as child porn is not legal...therefore prepaid cards for such sites are not legal.

But it could be like Internet Explorer, and be redirected from a legitimate site to another showing kiddie porn.

[Arm]

I have never called anybody that. I suggest that you check back on threads before you make such inferences in future. :angry:
Excellent you did not. :cool: Just making sure. :w00t:

And I have made over a thousand posts here. I aint digging through that big of an archive to find it. ;)

[Cheese]

Excellent you did not. :cool: Just making sure. :w00t:

And I have made over a thousand posts here. I aint digging through that big of an archive to find it. ;)

I think I remember that happening actually, was very stupid. I don't think the guy who accused you posts here anymore...

Edit: Here: http://www.filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=703118&postcount=27

[manker]

Wth :blink:

Cards such as these could never, ever, be used to provide people with anonymous access to child porn any more than the sale of porn magazines could.

The notion is ludicrous.

[hobbes]

Wth :blink:

Cards such as these could never, ever, be used to provide people with anonymous access to child porn any more than the sale of porn magazines could.

The notion is ludicrous.

Why is it ludicrous?

If you access a child porn site and use your credit card then those people have information tracable directly to you. When the FBI busts the porn site, I believe they have the right to access that information and will be arriving at your door.

If you pay cash for a porn card and use it to access the site, they actually have no information about you except your ip address, but most clever people know how to use a proxy. If the FBI busts that site, they cannot get any information which will lead them to your door.(speculation on my part, this would be the key to the issue).

Now, I am a computer noob, so I really don't know how difficult it would be for the FBI to actually trace you down from the porn site, but I think they would rather have your credit card number.

That is the scenario I imagined.

[manker]

Why is it ludicrous?

If you access a child porn site and use your credit card then those people have information tracable directly to you. When the FBI busts the porn site, I believe they have the right to access that information and will be arriving at your door.

If you pay cash for a porn card and use it to access the site, they actually have no information about you except your ip address, but most clever people know how to use a proxy. If the FBI busts that site, they cannot get any information which will lead them to your door.(speculation on my part, this would be the key to the issue).

Now, I am a computer noob, so I really don't know how difficult it would be for the FBI to actually trace you down from the porn site, but I think they would rather have your credit card number.

That is the scenario I imagined.
It's ludicrous because by buying these cards you're allowed to access certain porn sites. Not all of them and certainly not child porn sites.

Most porn sites operate membership schemes exactly as this forum does - by username and password, this will clearly not work on every site - to think that buying a month's subscription via a porn card to 'Hawt Latinas' might somehow enable you to access child porn anonymously is completely ridiculous. I don't even understand the train of thought.

Of course, paying cash for these cards, which I imagine to be a scratchcard revealing a username and pass, then accessing the site in question using a proxy would enable relative anonymity but where does accessing child porn come into the equation.

What would have to happen is that somehow in amongst the cards for 'Hawt Latinas' and 'Lactating babes' there would be a card that enables you to access a child porn site. The chances of this are equal to child porn magazine nestling besides Hustler on a magazine rack - ie. none.

People wouldn't say that just because a chemist sells (legal) paracetamol that it might sell (illegal) cocaine, so why the sensationalism in this case.

[DanB]

:lol: Well said manker


I really really doubt any country anywhere would allow cards that give access to kiddie porn to be sold in their shops or on their street.

I am guessing that you buy these cards for a specific site, not which ever site you decide once you are online

[hobbes]

If you want "kiddie porn", how do you get it? It is not next to Penthouse because it is illegal. So it would seem that one would have to go to an adult bookstore and hang around and make connections with actual criminals in order to secure your purchase. This is both risky in that it could be a sting operation or in that criminals are dangerous people. They may be just be suckering you in to take your money and beat the crap out of you.


Now, you have a new alternative, porn cards. Now the cards are completely site annonymous, as I understand it. You wouldn't buy a "Hawt Latinas" card, you would buy a $25 card which could be used at ANY site. Once you activate the card, then whichever site you access receives the money. That is how I envision it working.

I can't imagine people wanting to go to the local store and asking for a $10 anal midgets card and a $20 shemale extravaganza card. You wouldn't want the missus finding that in your wallet. Plus there are so many porn sites you would need thousands and thousands of cards. That is why I see it as a blank card which can be used at any site that participates in the "card system". Having the cards be site specific would completely undermine the privacy you are seeking.

As you probably would expect, illegal porn sites don't register in the card system as "illegal porn site", but rather "vidco entertainment" or something vague like that.

So now instead of venturing forth into the criminal element to get your porn, you can go to a legitimate retailer, buy an annoymous card, access the site annoymously and view illegal porn without fear of prosecution, theft, or personal injury.

That is why I do not think it is ludicrous.

[vidcc]

post later

[Cheese]

Only one company in America has the rights to sell these cards so I assume they also control what sites will actually honour these cards.

[bigboab]

I find it to hard understand how anyone can NOT see the possibility of a 'Loophole' in this system to allow people to access ANY porn site. I actually dont see the point of the system. Why dont these people just send the sites something equivalent to a Postal or Money Order. That would give them anonimity on both sides of the transaction.

Lets not forget that we are not dealing with a dirty old man in a Mac. We are dealing with people, if you excuse me calling them that, who are intelligent, a lot of them are high up in society. A lot of them are members of groups dedicated to this abnormal behaviour. They are obsessed and will strive to find a loophole. They will even get laws passed in their favour without you having any say.

Let me just, for a moment, describe what has happened in the last 40 years in the UK.

Early 1960's homosexuality illegal and frowned upon.

Middle 1960's homosexuality legal for over 21's.

1980's homosexuality legal for over 18's.

Fairly recently homosexuality legal for over 16's.

I am not homophobic but I cant remember any politician standing for election on any of the above laws. I personally find it obscene that this has allowed older men access to have legal 'access' to naive young boys. Please dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about. In the late 50's and early 60's I was stationed about 200 yards from the houses of parliament. You could not go to a pub in the centre of London without being accosted. Generally by a famous MP.

Sorry for havering a bit. :whistling

[hobbes]

Even if the cards were "site specific", it would be very easy to find via internet chatrooms which ones are fronts. You find out that "Hawt Latinas" is a real site with really hawt latinas, but if you go to page3, click on the third girl, then click on her heel, you will get a prompt "Do you want to see more of this hawt momma, then enter your vip code". You enter the code and are linked to the kiddie porn. They bill the card system as hawt latinas, but you ain't visiting their site for the ladies.

[manker]

If you want "kiddie porn", how do you get it? It is not next to Penthouse because it is illegal. So it would seem that one would have to go to an adult bookstore and hang around and make connections with actual criminals in order to secure your purchase. This is both risky in that it could be a sting operation or in that criminals are dangerous people. They may be just be suckering you in to take your money and beat the crap out of you.


Now, you have a new alternative, porn cards. Now the cards are completely site annonymous, as I understand it. You wouldn't buy a "Hawt Latinas" card, you would buy a $25 card which could be used at ANY site. Once you activate the card, then whichever site you access receives the money. That is how I envision it working.

I can't imagine people wanting to go to the local store and asking for a $10 anal midgets card and a $20 shemale extravaganza card. You wouldn't want the missus finding that in your wallet. Plus there are so many porn sites you would need thousands and thousands of cards. That is why I see it as a blank card which can be used at any site that participates in the "card system". Having the cards be site specific would completely undermine the privacy you are seeking.

As you probably would expect, illegal porn sites don't register in the card system as "illegal porn site", but rather "vidco entertainment" or something vague like that.

So now instead of venturing forth into the criminal element to get your porn, you can go to a legitimate retailer, buy an annoymous card, access the site annoymously and view illegal porn without fear of prosecution, theft, or personal injury.

That is why I do not think it is ludicrous.
Yeah, right.

There will be a nationwide scheme that any website can sign up to so that someone can access their site anonymously. That site will receive money from this scheme no matter what the content of their site is.

Do you not think that there will be a register of all the sites on the scheme and that someone may just check now and again.

Because I don't.

I think that in such a dubious world, like the interweb, there will be someone checking the content of EVERY site on that register every five minutes, uploads to the site server would have to be approved by a regulatory body.

To insinuate such a thing wouldn't happen is ... ludicrous.

[Snee]

But what if you've come there to check out the actual hawt latinas ( :lol: ) only to somehow find yourself at the kiddie pron site?

I bet it would be a relief then, if you didn't have to worry about the fbi busting down your door as you can't be traced.

[manker]

But what if you've come there to check out the actual hawt latinas ( :lol: ) only to somehow find yourself at the kiddie pron site?That could happen anyway :blink:

[Snee]

Yep, but the risk of getting registered and traced is bigger if you've paid for site access with your credit card.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't just the pedophiles that can avoid getting caught by the feds, but also those who gotten access, to whatever it is, unintentionally.

It's sort of gives you a safety margin when surfing questionable (whether you know they are or not) sites. And I guess it might actually save someone from being falsely prosecuted as something they are not, and I'm not sure that isn't a good thing.

[manker]

I find it to hard understand how anyone can NOT see the possibility of a 'Loophole' in this system to allow people to access ANY porn site. I actually dont see the point of the system. Why dont these people just send the sites something equivalent to a Postal or Money Order. That would give them anonimity on both sides of the transaction.

Lets not forget that we are not dealing with a dirty old man in a Mac. We are dealing with people, if you excuse me calling them that, who are intelligent, a lot of them are high up in society. A lot of them are members of groups dedicated to this abnormal behaviour. They are obsessed and will strive to find a loophole. They will even get laws passed in their favour without you having any say.

Let me just, for a moment, describe what has happened in the last 40 years in the UK.

Early 1960's homosexuality illegal and frowned upon.

Middle 1960's homosexuality legal for over 21's.

1980's homosexuality legal for over 18's.

Fairly recently homosexuality legal for over 16's.

I am not homophobic but I cant remember any politician standing for election on any of the above laws. I personally find it obscene that this has allowed older men access to have legal 'access' to naive young boys. Please dont tell me I dont know what I am talking about. In the late 50's and early 60's I was stationed about 200 yards from the houses of parliament. You could not go to a pub in the centre of London without being accosted. Generally by a famous MP.

Sorry for havering a bit. :whistling
I'm completely ignoring the rubbish about homosexuality.

Porn sites already let you subscribe by using money orders. Conceivably child porn sites could too, I guess.

Why not ban money orders. Why target a scheme that will be monitored offline and online as being exploitable by pedophiles instead of venting your ire on the fact that they can already access sites anonymously.



Btw, I would venture to say that child pron isn't propagated by websites that you have to pay to enter - Operation Ore probbly put the frighteners on people. I imagine that due to the tracability aspect it is circulated by webrings and - gasp - filesharing.

[vidcc]

So the argument is that these cards should not be sold as they could be used to access "kiddie porn" sites because it is assumed that the company that runs the card system would not police it.

This basically is an argument that we can't have legitimate stuff that could be used for other things...... Hmm...

this is the best argument I have seen for gun control.

The internet should be banned as it can be used to access said sites.

lets ban cameras, as they can be used to produce the material.

Should we ban credit cards because with identity theft access can be made anonomously to those sites ?


Now I agree that we shouldn't make things easier for those evil soon to be having their genitals burnt off with a blowlamp perverts, but I can't accept that we should ban legitimate things because someone may use them for an unintended purpose

[hobbes]

Yeah, right.

There will be a nationwide scheme that any website can sign up to so that someone can access their site anonymously. That site will receive money from this scheme no matter what the content of their site is.

Do you not think that there will be a register of all the sites on the scheme and that someone may just check now and again.

Because I don't.

I think that in such a dubious world, like the interweb, there will be someone checking the content of EVERY site on that register every five minutes, uploads to the site server would have to be approved by a regulatory body.

To insinuate such a thing wouldn't happen is ... ludicrous.


Who can moniter 100,000 sites every 5 minutes looking for a hidden link that is password protected? The sites will all bill under legimate names, only those who have made "contacts" know of any hidden links.

But as I have said, from a computer standpoint I don't know what exactly is possible, but when there is money involved, people tend to become very creative to become user friendly to their special clients.

[manker]

Yep, but the risk of getting registered and traced is bigger if you've paid for site access with your credit card.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't just the pedophiles that can avoid getting caught by the feds, but also those who gotten access, to whatever it is, unintentionally.

It's sort of gives you a safety margin when surfing questionable (whether you know they are or not) sites. And I guess it might actually save someone from being falsely prosecuted as something they are not, and I'm not sure that isn't a good thing.Right, but that's not the point.

Why would the Hawt Latina guy sell these cards and advertise them as Hawt Latinas and then put Kiddie porn on his site. The people who expected Hawt Latinas would report the site to the police.

[Snee]

Don't compare this to guns. (@vidcc)

Guns are made purely to cause harm to someone or something, and unless that something is an animal you are by law allowed to hunt, there's not a good reason for you to have a gun.

Or there wouldn't be anyway, if everyone hadn't been allowed to buy guns in the first place, criminals and all.


@manker: I should probably posted that the original comment wasn't aimed@ your reasoning, which I find sound enough.

[manker]

Who can moniter 100,000 sites every 5 minutes looking for a hidden link that is password protected? The sites will all bill under legimate names, only those who have made "contacts" know of any hidden links.I've already said that server uploads would be pre-approved. There would be no uploading of anything to the site without the say so of the server admin - who would be an employee of the regulatory body. This completely nullifies your point.


But as I have said, from a computer standpoint I don't know what exactly is possible, but when there is money involved, people tend to become very creative to become user friendly to their special clients.The fact remains that these cards, due to their publically available nature, would be the LEAST likely way to be able to use the interweb to access child porn.

[Cheese]

Who can moniter 100,000 sites every 5 minutes looking for a hidden link that is password protected? The sites will all bill under legimate names, only those who have made "contacts" know of any hidden links.


Web crawlers could (and probably already do for any big porn hosting company) monitor the sites that use these pre-approved cards. They would red-flag any suspious sites for investigation by the server admin.

[vidcc]

Don't compare this to guns. (@vidcc)

Guns are made purely to cause harm to someone or something, and unless that something is an animal you are by law allowed to hunt, there's not a good reason for you to have a gun.

Or there wouldn't be anyway, if everyone hadn't been allowed to buy guns in the first place, criminals and all.


why? it is an item that is used for legitimate reasons. Hunters for example. Home defense is often quoted.

I agree that they have no reason other than to kill..... but many that object to porn say that porn is harmful.

[bigboab]

The fact remains that these cards, due to their publically available nature, would be the LEAST likely way to be able to use the interweb to access child porn.

The least likely way is to use your traceable credit card. Not a card that can not be traced.

[hobbes]

Right, but that's not the point.

Why would the Hawt Latina guy sell these cards and advertise them as Hawt Latinas and then put Kiddie porn on his site. The people who expected Hawt Latinas would report the site to the police.

No, your not getting my point. There will be nothing on the hawt latina site but hawt latinas. If you know how to find the hidden link and have a "special access" code, then and only then can you see any kiddie porn.

If you sign up for hawt latinas that is all you will see and all the regulatory agency will see.

I'm not a computer guy so I can't think of how one could actually do this.

Look at it this way.

Let's say I know where kiddie porn is through my connections on the web. I don't want to send my credit card info to the site. The site says fine, just pay for "hawt latinas VIP edition" every month with a card, then use that membership id to log in here at the kiddie porn site.

That way hawt latinas is just that for standard users, (it doesn't even have to contain a hidden link), and a nice clean way to launder the money for the pedophiles.

[Snee]

@vidcc: That pornography would cause harm to an adult viewing it hasn't actually been proven, except in dubious or biased research.

The kind of damage a bullet will do as it enters your brain on the other hand, is indisputable.

[Arm]

This basically is an argument that we can't have legitimate stuff that could be used for other things...... Hmm...

this is the best argument I have seen for gun control.
What keep people who have violent criminal historys and the mentally unstable from owning guns because they might hurt someone with them? That makes sense to me. Would you really want someone who was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon owning an UZI, a Desert Eagle and an Ak-47?

And then when someone gets busted for having an illegal, unregistered firearm then you can charge them for posessing an unlicensed firearm. Makes sense to me. :cool:

Of course guns are different from lets say, restricting porno to minors because guns are made to kill people whereas porn just helps kill sperm. :whistling

But seriously people, if a pay child porn site existed then it would get shut down in a week it not less. If it wasent open to the public then it would be just as clandestine as sharing the crap on Freenet.

[manker]

No, your not getting my point. There will be nothing on the hawt latina site but hawt latinas. If you know how to find the hidden link and have a "special access" code, then and only then can you see any kiddie porn.

If you sign up for hawt latinas that is all you will see and all the regulatory agency will see.

I'm not a computer guy so I can't think of how on could actually do this.

Look at it this way.

Let's say I know where kiddie porn is through my connections on the web. I don't want to send my credit card info to the site. The site says fine, just pay for "hawt latinas VIP edition" every month with a card, then use that membership id to log in here at the kiddie porn site.

That way hawt latinas is just that for standard users, (it doesn't even have to contain a hidden link), and a nice clean way to launder the money for the pedophiles.Teh fook!

They could do that anyway with a money order, mailed cash or a postal order to pay for Hawt Latinas - why go to all the unecessary trouble and risk of issuing a card that has to be bought via a third party in the high street when it can all be done quietly via anonymous email (for the dodgy links) and normal mail (for the payment).

I submit that contrary to the sensationalism earlier in the thread, this is no 'new' loophole.

Edit: This is also quite different from your original one card enables you to access thousands of sites - one of them could contain child porn point.

[vidcc]

Snny & Arm

Aparently you are unaware of my views on gun ownership.... i believe that guns should only be for military and law enforcement agencies.... and for hunters after rigorous checks and strict enforcement.

I raised it as many that object to pornography altogether... hold to their rights to have guns because they are not "criminals" and shouldn't have their right to have guns removed because "guns don't kill people...people do" and they shouldn't have their rights taken away because of the actions of others...

understand where i am coming from ?

[hobbes]

I said the cards could be a way for pedophiles to go undetected in their surfing of illegal porn.

It avoids the risks of using a credit card, of sending money or money order, it grants the convenience of just buying a legitimate card and it provides a legitimate front through which the providers of kiddie porn can expand their business and submit a legitimate tax return at the end of the year.

I never said the cards should not be allowed, just recognized how one could use them to enhance annoymity and reduce risk of swindled money.

The hysteria in the initial article was directed at children buying the cards, NOT the cards themselves. Since we were all in agreement that the shopowners were to blame for letting the kids get them, the focus of the thread drifted away.

Boab made the point of kiddie porn and in thinking it through I thought that it could certainly be used as a slick way to launder money.

[hobbes]

Edit: This is also quite different from your original one card enables you to access thousands of sites - one of them could contain child porn point.

How? You may have 10,000 totally legitimate sites. Only a couple are fronts for the pedophile porn providers to launder their money.

Frank may like to look at hot latinas and likes the fact that he is not giving out his credit card information. He is totally oblvious to any sort of illegal porn.

Where do you think I have changed anything? Perhaps as the thread has progressed I have sort of honed my vision on how this would actually run, but the concept of laundering money is unchanged.

[manker]

Hobbes.

That (http://www.filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1005304&postcount=22) is a world away from the money laundering scheme.

You've decided against your original, incorrect, assertions and decided on a much less sensational standpoint. I'm okay with that, even if the money laundering idea doesn't make sense as it involves another step rather than just mailing the payment direct.

However, these cards don't make it easier to propagate or access child pornography - the converse to this, which was stated earlier, is the point I took issue with.


With that, I'm off to the pub :D

[bigboab]

The eCards on this page were designed by ********* a lady who knows the pain of living with a pornography addicted spouse, and the hope that comes from seeing a spouse set free from the addiction. The cards were created using *****'s own original photography and verses. They are available exclusively on this site. All cards on this page are copyright © 2001, 2002, 2003 by ***********. While these cards are free to anyone who wishes to use them to minister to a family member or friend, they are not to be posted to another website under any condition without the express written permission of the copyright holders. If any of these cards are seen on any other web site, with or without charge, please notify us immediately.

Wow! Neighbourhood watch. That will ease parents minds everywhere.. :(


P.S. could Roy Carroll not have saved that ball and also saved us a lot of hassle. :lol:

[hobbes]

Hobbes.

That (http://www.filesharingtalk.com/vb3/showpost.php?p=1005304&postcount=22) is a world away from the money laundering scheme.

You've decided against your original, incorrect, assertions and decided on a much less sensational standpoint. I'm okay with that, even if the money laundering idea doesn't make sense as it involves another step rather than just mailing the payment direct.

However, these cards don't make it easier to propagate or access child pornography - the converse to this, which was stated earlier, is the point I took issue with.

With that, I'm off to the pub :D

If everyone wanted to send money through the mail then the cards would never have come to exist, right. Money orders are a pain. The porn card is overall less risky and more convenient than either cash or money order.

How does allowing a card which allows sellers a legimate front and users annonymity decrease child porn distribution.

I have not wavered one bit from my initial post and I have clearly illustrated my point and I cannot recall anything "sensationalistic" about any comments I have made.

I'm off to the track, but the pub sounds more appealing :lol:

[Snee]

Snny & Arm

Aparently you are unaware of my views on gun ownership.... i believe that guns should only be for military and law enforcement agencies.... and for hunters after rigorous checks and strict enforcement.

I raised it as many that object to pornography altogether... hold to their rights to have guns because they are not "criminals" and shouldn't have their right to have guns removed because "guns don't kill people...people do" and they shouldn't have their rights taken away because of the actions of others...

understand where i am coming from ?
I reckon so, but then you could have just said so in the first place.

They are a bunch of hypocrites if they hold those views, you are right about that.

[vidcc]

I reckon so, but then you could have just said so in the first place.

the whole post was about banning things because of irresponsible actions of others, i didn't think it needed to be made even more long winded

[Snee]

For once I think you could have done just that, 'cos the way I read the gun-control post was: "Banning useful stuff 'cos ppl might use it to do evil is bad, m'kay?"

But then I didn't remember reading any of your other posts on that subject and thus didn't have the right context to work from, possibly I blocked them out 'cos of the long-windedness :unsure:

[vidcc]

, possibly I blocked them out 'cos of the long-windedness :unsure:
It's been a long time since we debated gun control......

this needs some wind

http://hometown.aol.com/phidragons/images/vault%20-%20danny%20chung%20fart%20b%2011-03%20website.jpg

[Busyman]

the whole post was about banning things because of irresponsible actions of others, i didn't think it needed to be made even more long winded
The reason I never chimed in after my initial post was because your post pretty much wrapped it up.

I can't believe this thread went 6 pages. :blink:

Unless the cards are debit cards, which no one brought up, then the cards will only access specific sites that are in league with the cards.

Think about the dynamic of a card that's used on the internet. It won't have a magnetic strip because there's nothing to swipe.

It's probably just a username and password linked to a certain amount of time from activation.

I can't remember but whoever said that the cards would access ALL porn is nutso (unless it's the debit card). If that's the case, I could buy a game at Gamespot with it too. :dry:

[bigboab]

The reason I never chimed in after my initial post was because your post pretty much wrapped it up.

I can't believe this thread went 6 pages. :blink:

Unless the cards are debit cards, which no one brought up, then the cards will only access specific sites that are in league with the cards.

Think about the dynamic of a card that's used on the internet. It won't have a magnetic strip because there's nothing to swipe.

It's probably just a username and password linked to a certain amount of time from activation.

I can't remember but whoever said that the cards would access ALL porn is nutso (unless it's the debit card). If that's the case, I could buy a game at Gamespot with it too. :dry:

I was the original member who said that a loophole could be created. Read my last post. The makers of one of these cards seems to think that they could be used for other purposes.

As for being Nutso. I studied criminal law for two years. How much have you studied? If you dont think like them you wont beat them.

I also find it very disquieting the amount of members that seem to jump to the defence of something that creates anominity for something you should be open about.

[j2k4]

What's that?

An echo?

:)

[bigboab]

What's that?

An echo?

:)

What's Margarine got to do with it? Come to think of it I wont go in to that.
:lol:

[Snee]

I also find it very disquieting the amount of members that seem to jump to the defence of something that creates anominity for something you should be open about.
Hmm, those of us who've been known at look at pornography should start signing at those sites with their names then? And hope they won't sell information about it to a third party or something.

What some of us were defending was the right to look at pornography without having it registered, not the right to look at child pornography.


Meh, privacy is overrated anyway

[Busyman]

I was the original member who said that a loophole could be created. Read my last post. The makers of one of these cards seems to think that they could be used for other purposes.

As for being Nutso. I studied criminal law for two years. How much have you studied? If you dont think like them you wont beat them.

I also find it very disquieting the amount of members that seem to jump to the defence of something that creates anominity for something you should be open about.
Huh, what loophole?

The cards look like smart marketing to me.
If I go to a porn site what gives you the right to know who I am?
Your criminal law background has shit to do with this thread. The vendors are basically selling passwords.

You could have brought up the fact that porn sites use a verification system (credit card) to weed out underage folk. Your child porn doohicky holds no water.

What other purposes could they be used for?
Explain for the uneducated. :dry:

[bigboab]

Hmm, those of us who've been known at look at pornography should start signing at those sites with their names then? And hope they won't sell information about it to a third party or something.

What some of us were defending was the right to look at pornography without having it registered, not the right to look at child pornography.


Meh, privacy is overrated anyway

Sorry Snny I meant anominity at home etc. Postal Orders Etc can create the other anominity. Is there not another word we can use. I find it difficult spelling anonimity. :cool:

[Cheese]

So has anyone figured out if these cards (which are only sold by one company) actually link to just one site or loads of sites?

Nobody actually knows for sure how these cards work, so we can't really know how open to abuse they are.

For instance, if the same company owns all the sites that the cards are used for then what's the problem?:unsure:

[Busyman]

Sorry Snny I meant anominity at home etc. Postal Orders Etc can create the other anominity. Is there not another word we can use. I find it difficult spelling anonimity. :cool:
I think SnnY got what you said. He wasn't talking about porn in a museum. :dry:

[Busyman]

So has anyone figured out if these cards (which are only sold by one company) actually link to just one site or loads of sites?

Nobody actually knows for sure how these cards work, so we can't really know how open to abuse they are.

For instance, if the same company owns all the sites that the cards are used for then what's the problem?:unsure:
They would logically have to, barring it being a Visa debit card or something.

Again, we don't swipe cards at our computers to access sites.

Username *******
Password *******

[bigboab]

I think SnnY got what you said. He wasn't talking about porn in a museum. :dry:

Snny is one of the most literate, if not the most, fellows on this forum, please let him answer for himself. :)

@Cheese! I think they are sold by more than one company. The company I quoted above is company to help people addicted to pornography. That I can understand. But as you can see they are worried about misuse.

[Snee]

Sorry Snny I meant anominity at home etc. Postal Orders Etc can create the other anominity. Is there not another word we can use. I find it difficult spelling anonimity. :cool:
With postal orders the company taking the order will have a record of exactly what you ordered.

Assuming this card isn't limited to one thing and one thing only, you'd have to possibility to legally watch whatever is on offer without having it registered exactly what you are looking at.

That way people who are for some reason ashamed of their preferences are free to look at what they desire without it being registered anywhere exactly what they are looking at.

And I'm not talking about pedophiles, but rather repressed people who find their sexuality shameful for some reason.

[bigboab]

With postal orders the company taking the order will have a record of exactly what you ordered.


Yes, but in the UK they would not know who you were, only where you bought the Postal Order.

[Snee]

Oh, I stand corrected then. :unsure:


And the people where you bought it wouldn't know what the postal order was for?

[bigboab]

Oh, I stand corrected then. :unsure:


And the people where you bought it wouldn't know what the postal order was for?

No. It is only stamped with the date and the Post Office where issued. :)

Actually(I know, its not :cool: ) if it is a small amount, in some cases, you can send postage stamps to cover the cost(UK).

[Snee]

Uhm, maybe it's 'cos it's late, but I have trouble following this.

So you pay for something at the post office, and it gets sent to you from whatever company you've ordered it from, and all the while no one but you knows what you ordered?

How do they know what to send you, or what you should pay?

[bigboab]

Uhm, maybe it's 'cos it's late, but I have trouble following this.

So you pay for something at the post office, and it gets sent to you from whatever company you've ordered it from, and all the while no one but you knows what you ordered?

How do they know what to send you, or what you should pay?

No in that case you would send your name and address. :lol: But in the case of paying for internet 'services' I think they will have a system of acknowledgement. Like charging your phone bill. BT pays the company, your name and address does not come into it. The resposibility for recovery of the money lies with BT. Not the Internet company. This is getting more and more complicated. I suppose the Postal Order would work the same way as the cards but with 'complete' anominity once a system of passwords was set up.

That was worth more than one post. :rolleyes:

[Cheese]

With that, I'm off to the pub :D

Me too, bubi. :D

[hobbes]

:w00t: porn cards :w00t:

[Snee]

This is terribly exciting. ^

[hobbes]

Fresh for snny

Who would buy a card?

Anyone who either doesn't trust giving out his credit card number or doesn't want his wife to ask him about a mysterious entry on the credit card bill.

So privacy is a key issue for our target audience.

So I would envision it as a company that manages the running of the business end, financed by the adult websites that want to participate in the "card system".

The homepage would contain all sites subscribing.

You could go to the store, place your money in a machine (that is in an 18 and up area, like a liquor store) and it would electronically credit you 20 dollars to the homepage. You would be given a machine generated id and passcode which would be printed on a simple card.

Once back at home you access the homepage, entering your unique login, and you now can click on any link on the site. This could be in the 10's of thousands, potentially. The different websites get a prorated fee based on the time spent at each site.

This way you can fulfill all your porn fantasies and you have complete anonymity.

Where is Robert5000, he may want in on this.

[bigboab]

Further to my earlier post, Snny. When you send a Postal Order you keep a stub with all the details etc. So if you arrange via a password system to send a Postal Order you still have proof that you sent this company money. So if they tried to 'diddle' you the number of the Postal Order can be traced to who cashed it. That would cancel the anonimity of course. But it would also 'damage' the credibility of the internet company. :cool:

I think its time I had a drink too. :lol: :lol:

[Snee]

@bob: It's probably for the best. :unsure:


@hobbes, I reckon that might be a few years from now, from what I understand it's only a relatively small scale operation right now, and thus it won't be that much room to hide something illegal from whoever monitors the operation. :unsure:

But when it comes to internet and pornography the development may well be very fast, what with the demand.

At least I assume there is a considerable demand for internet pornography as there's so much of it, and one wonders how the multitude of sites could all survive of no one was willing to pay.

[bigboab]

Trouble is. Drink and watching pornography dont go together. It all gets spilled. :(

[Snee]

Yes.

[Busyman]

Fresh for snny

Who would buy a card?

Anyone who either doesn't trust giving out his credit card number or doesn't want his wife to ask him about a mysterious entry on the credit card bill.

So privacy is a key issue for our target audience.

So I would envision it as a company that manages the running of the business end, financed by the adult websites that want to participate in the "card system".

The homepage would contain all sites subscribing.

You could go to the store, place your money in a machine (that is in an 18 and up area, like a liquor store) and it would electronically credit you 20 dollars to the homepage. You would be given a machine generated id and passcode which would be printed on a simple card.

Once back at home you access the homepage, entering your unique login, and you now can click on any link on the site. This could be in the 10's of thousands, potentially. The different websites get a prorated fee based on the time spent at each site.

This way you can fulfill all your porn fantasies and you have complete anonymity.

Where is Robert5000, he may want in on this.
This makes simple sense.

Now hobbes, can you explain what boab is talking about?

Since I don't have the years he has in the criminal field, I am befuddled. :huh:

@SnnY - Pornography is the biggest money maker on the internet.

[hobbes]

This makes simple sense.

Now hobbes, can you explain what boab is talking about?

Since I don't have the years he has in the criminal field, I am befuddled. :huh:

Well, I don't think, as Boab suggests, that we can make the cards illegal just because someone might use them to support his "illegal website".

Boab, like myself, have looked at this from the perspective of how someone could use these cards to finance their child pornography. For instance, if I went to a kiddie porn site and signed up with my credit card, any FBI raid on the place would lead them to my doorstep. If I can access the site annonymously, using the appropriate proxys, I can remain hidden from the FBI as they have no way to track me (no credit card #).

The key is how to pay the porn site owner. Well you do so by paying for it at their legimate site using a porn card. Once you have credited their legit site, they allow to access a private site that is completely separate from the card system.

How will they learn about these hidden sites? I don't know, probably however they do it now. Little private chatroom on the internet or something.

One could just send the money, but gosh, it got lost again. And they know, even if they do this, you'll still be coming back.

The porn card is a great way to launder money, view kiddie porn under an extra layer of security and convenience and make the website owners W-2* look legit at the years end.

To answer your question, I think Boabs experience in criminology made him attempt to figure out how "bad guys" could use this to their advantage. BY knowing how to think like they do, he can anticipate problems which may arise and develop a plan to tackle them.




*A W-2 is a yearly earnings statement for income tax purposes- for those not in the USA.

[hobbes]

@SnnY - Pornography is the biggest money maker on the internet.

There is so much free porn out there, I can't imagine why people need to subscribe to porn sites.

I guess I'm just not kinky enough?

Porn not only is the biggest money maker on the internet, it probably actually created it.

Totally off topic: As an aside, in 1996, there was a big push to make sites ID everyone. A service called Adultcheck allowed a yearly subscription via credit card and they would vouch for your age. That seems to have gone away, I wonder why?

[Arm]

I raised it as many that object to pornography altogether... hold to their rights to have guns because they are not "criminals" and shouldn't have their right to have guns removed because "guns don't kill people...people do" and they shouldn't have their rights taken away because of the actions of others...
I never said take away the right to guns altogether. Just to the people who have a high chance of using them to hurt or kill others. ;)

[j2k4]

I never said take away the right to guns altogether. Just to the people who have a high chance of using them to hurt or kill others. ;)

You have missed the legal conflict, Arm:

In many/most cases, privacy issues forestall efforts to determine just who might "have a high chance" of using firearms for wrong purposes.

The administration of such information is a bit spotty (though it is getting better), but even at it's optimum, it wouldn't reveal all those with violent potential.

[Busyman]

Well, I don't think, as Boab suggests, that we can make the cards illegal just because someone might use them to support his "illegal website".

Boab, like myself, have looked at this from the perspective of how someone could use these cards to finance their child pornography. For instance, if I went to a kiddie porn site and signed up with my credit card, any FBI raid on the place would lead them to my doorstep. If I can access the site annonymously, using the appropriate proxys, I can remain hidden from the FBI as they have no way to track me (no credit card #).

The key is how to pay the porn site owner. Well you do so by paying for it at their legimate site using a porn card. Once you have credited their legit site, they allow to access a private site that is completely separate from the card system.

How will they learn about these hidden sites? I don't know, probably however they do it now. Little private chatroom on the internet or something.

One could just send the money, but gosh, it got lost again. And they know, even if they do this, you'll still be coming back.

The porn card is a great way to launder money, view kiddie porn under an extra layer of security and convenience and make the website owners W-2* look legit at the years end.

To answer your question, I think Boabs experience in criminology made him attempt to figure out how "bad guys" could use this to their advantage. BY knowing how to think like they do, he can anticipate problems which may arise and develop a plan to tackle them.




*A W-2 is a yearly earnings statement for income tax purposes- for those not in the USA.
There's a problem with everything you just said....

boab suggests making all the cards illegal which is ludicrous and it's decisions like that that are all over our country's judicial system.

Add to that you said that stuff before and there's no telling if boab was thinking just that. (what you were thinking)

In DC, after 6:30 pm, you can't make a left onto Connecticut Av NW from K St Nw if you are going west.
Now this may make sense in a rush hour time period but after 6:30 pm is near the end of rush hour.

This 'no left turn' was put in place because of prostitution.

So now you have to go 1 block past there and make 3 lefts to get to same spot. I got a "fucking" ticket there about 11 years ago when I was trying to go a club on that block.

You left out one thing in you example. The cards that are being sold have to be maybe just passwords. If a site owner "somehow" links to kiddie porn, how will the passwords discern legit kiddie porn lickers from law enforcement? :blink:

You and boab goin' fishin'?

[hobbes]

You and boab goin' fishin'?

No, boab always pukes in the boat.