View Full Version : forgetting your roots
vidcc
03-16-2005, 07:58 PM
MILLERSVILLE, Md. -- A ninth-grader is protesting his school's decision to broadcast the Pledge of Allegiance in foreign languages as part of National Foreign Language Week.
Patrick Linton said he and other students at Old Mill High School sat down rather than stand Wednesday when the Pledge was read over the school's public address system in Russian. Linton's teacher told him if he had a problem he should leave the room.
He did, and did not plan to return this week.
"This is America, and we got soldiers at war," the 15-year-old said. "When you're saying the Pledge in a different language which nobody understands, that's not OK."
Charles Linton, Patrick's father, said the use of other languages is disrespectful to the country. "It's like wearing a cross upside down in a church," he said.
The pledge was to be read in Spanish, French, Latin, Russian and German. School officials said the activity will continue, with the English version of the Pledge being read first for the rest of the week.
"This is just a way to connect what's going on in the classroom and this daily activity where we say the Pledge of Allegiance," said Jonathan Brice, a spokesman for Anne Arundel County Public Schools.
This story caught my eye for a couple of reasons. I think this boy and his father are being foolish in the reasons they gave.
The USA was founded on immigration, people came from all parts of the world, voluntarily or by force. Our army comprises of soldiers of many races including many that speak the languages listed.
This boy and his father are being disrespectful to the origins of their countries forefathers.
source (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-pledge-foreign-language,0,6071129.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines)
uNz[i]
03-16-2005, 08:16 PM
Hmmm... that Patrick's a real chip off the old block(head).
What a nob.....
He forgets his own country's history in favour of knee jerk bigotry......
Biggles
03-16-2005, 08:38 PM
There are those who gain some form of identity through outrage. They need this sense of outrage to define their own beliefs and views.
The idea that a pledge of allegiance becomes Satanic if spoken in Spanish must go down a bundle in the Hispanic neigbourhood. :dry:
I thought the Aryan Brotherhood had set up their own schools in some bunker in Montana anyhoo.
bigboab
03-16-2005, 09:11 PM
They got the publicity they wanted. Dont publicize it and it will disappear.
@Biggles. :ph34r: See me before tomorrow nights meeting. :lol: :lol:
3RA1N1AC
03-16-2005, 09:16 PM
There are those who gain some form of identity through outrage. They need this sense of outrage to define their own beliefs and views.
i wonder how these fellas react when a colored uses their drinking fountain.
okay. that was cheap. just because the kid announces his disdain for foreign languages to his teacher and classmates, skips school for an entire week in protest, and has his dad blab to the newspapers with an equation of foreign languages to satan... that doesn't necessarily mean it's racism. perhaps their love of sacred cows just gives them an unintentionally foul case of xenophobia-flavored tourette's syndrome. :P
vidcc
03-17-2005, 07:32 PM
repost...sort of.
Today is Saint Patrick's day...a day when we see so many Americans calling themselves "Irish".... this happens all the time. Go to New York and people will say "I'm Italian", even though the last member of their family to set foot in these lands was probably their great great grandfather.
These people are showing pride in their roots...and that is not un-American
bigboab
03-17-2005, 11:39 PM
repost...sort of.
Today is Saint Patrick's day...a day when we see so many Americans calling themselves "Irish".... this happens all the time. Go to New York and people will say "I'm Italian", even though the last member of their family to set foot in these lands was probably their great great grandfather.
These people are showing pride in their roots...and that is not un-American
If it is not un-American, British etc why were these people interred during the second world war?
vidcc
03-18-2005, 02:12 AM
If it is not un-American, British etc why were these people interred during the second world war?
I guess they had to be dead first :blink:
However i know what you are asking. :D
The best i can come up with is that this boys grandfather worked in government at the time :unsure:
I can't give any kind of justification for them being interned. If an idividual is an immigrant, especially non citizen or immediate offspring then there may be a case to justify "investigations or observations" however the wholescale actions that took place certainly in hindsight were wrong. I have never excused the actions of any nation.
It is not un-American to show pride in your roots but it is un-American and indeed un-any nation to fight for the other side if you have chosen to become a citizen...... that would be treason surely.
There is a distance still to travel but hopefully one day we will see the light.
bigboab
03-18-2005, 06:32 AM
Sorry Vid :( Late night spelling mistake. :(
Same thing happened here during the war. Respected citizens locked up because of their or their Fathers/Mothers nationality. I was put behind bars too at that time. Cot bars. :lol: Only for the first year of the war I may add. :P
vidcc
03-18-2005, 02:40 PM
I was put behind bars too at that time.
rumour has it you have been propping them up since...especially during happy hour :shifty:
Busyman
03-18-2005, 02:41 PM
rumour has it you have been propping them up since...especially during happy hour :shifty:
Bad quoting, bad quoting.. :1eye:
I thought this was going to be something about blondes and bleaching. :huh:
Mind you, people who forget that are probably the ones spending too much time chatting in the happy hour bar. :rolleyes:
vidcc
03-18-2005, 05:15 PM
Bad quoting, bad quoting.. :1eye:
I was fixing it as you posted.
What do you think on the subject though? (It would be nice to get more American views)
Does this boy and his father have a point (with the reasons he gave) or do you think I have one?
Even if you believe this boy has a point should he get away with boycotting school?
BigBank_Hank
03-18-2005, 05:21 PM
(It would be nice to get more American views)
I posted my view yesterday but it vanished after the board update.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. If the family would look into their family origin they would probably be surprised.
My family originated from Nova Scotia way back when. They along with all the other Cajun’s were kicked out of the country and settled in Louisiana.
vidcc
03-18-2005, 05:30 PM
I posted my view yesterday but it vanished after the board update.
Ignorance is bliss I guess. If the family would look into their family origin they would probably be surprised. Yes i read it. You added more this time.
My family originated from Nova Scotia way back when. They along with all the other Cajun’s were kicked out of the country and settled in Louisiana.
Seems you have something in common with the Aussies :ohmy:
Busyman
03-18-2005, 05:31 PM
I was fixing it as you posted.
What do you think on the subject though? (It would be nice to get more American views)
Does this boy and his father have a point (with the reasons he gave) or do you think I have one?
Even if you believe this boy has a point should he get away with boycotting school?
I was just joshing around. I usually stay away from threads that don't interest me.
It is rather simple to me. It's just like the neighbor that moves next door and plays music you dislike. The boy and father are used to America being synonymous with the English language. Another language smacks of "theyare taking over" mentality.
Tbh it is a little weird. I don't like when I go to McDonald's (among other places) that the workers there barely understand English. I've always thought we should have had English as an official language regardless of immigration. I understand folks being pissed off. Some folks are here just to use America to send "money home." It discourages interaction and intergration into the greater populous. I have observed this mainly in the Hispanic community.
Nevertheless, I think the boy should be punished for truancy and any work he missed be counted against him (no make-up).
Boycotting is one thing...missing school for that is entirely another. :dry:
vidcc
03-18-2005, 05:44 PM
@ busy
I agree...English is the official language and a reasonable standard of vocabulary should be part of becoming a citizen.....There would be no excuse for anything other than English saying the pledge when becoming a citizen.
Having worked in a few places worldwide I appreciate the difficulties of accents
However accents are a different matter altogether.... I'm sure if you travelled to many states you would have a great deal of difficulty understanding people that have US ancestry as far back as the pilgrims.
Busyman
03-18-2005, 05:55 PM
@ busy
I agree...English is the official language and a reasonable standard of vocabulary should be part of becoming a citizen.....There would be no excuse for anything other than English saying the pledge when becoming a citizen.
Having worked in a few places worldwide I appreciate the difficulties of accents
However accents are a different matter altogether.... I'm sure if you travelled to many states you would have a great deal of difficulty understanding people that have US ancestry as far back as the pilgrims.
Shit I have a problem understanding some Scottish accents....
Congress votes everything else on majority (like their raises). Why don't they go ahead a knock this official English thang out?
BigBank_Hank
03-18-2005, 06:08 PM
In our house English isn’t the primary language that’s spoken. My parent’s speak French most of the time and when relatives come over that’s all they speak in. My grandparents couldn’t speak much English and could only say the words that they needed to know. All of my relatives and my parents speak well in English but they all prefer to talk to each other in French.
Busyman
03-18-2005, 06:17 PM
In our house English isn’t the primary language that’s spoken. My parent’s speak French most of the time and when relatives come over that’s all they speak in. My grandparents couldn’t speak much English and could only say the words that they needed to know. All of my relatives and my parents speak well in English but they all prefer to talk to each other in French.
That's understandable (pun intended). :ph34r:
vidcc
03-18-2005, 06:22 PM
In our house English isn’t the primary language that’s spoken. My parent’s speak French most of the time and when relatives come over that’s all they speak in. My grandparents couldn’t speak much English and could only say the words that they needed to know. All of my relatives and my parents speak well in English but they all prefer to talk to each other in French.
Have you ever seen the British TV show "Allo Allo"?... the British secret agent pretending to ba a french policeman is hilarious.
BigBank_Hank
03-18-2005, 06:55 PM
Can’t say that I have.
The French that we all speak is different from the one in France. It’s kind of a mixed blend.
hobbes
03-18-2005, 07:02 PM
Shit I have a problem understanding some Scottish accents....
Congress votes everything else on majority (like their raises). Why don't they go ahead a knock this official English thang out?
English is the official language of the United States except for New Mexico which is English and Spanish.
By official though, that simply means that all state documents, road signs, etc are published or produced in English.
Busyman
03-18-2005, 07:08 PM
English is the official language of the United States except for New Mexico which is English and Spanish.
By official though, that simply means that all state documents, road signs, etc are published or produced in English.
:ohmy:
bigboab
03-18-2005, 07:12 PM
Shit I have a problem understanding some Scottish accents....
Congress votes everything else on majority (like their raises). Why don't they go ahead a knock this official English thang out?
Could some wan tell me whit he said.:whistling
vidcc
03-18-2005, 07:20 PM
.
The French that we all speak is different from the one in France. It’s kind of a mixed blend.
I appreciate that.... in your posting absence i tried to point out that Americans speak "American" and not "English"... very very close but different none the less.
check this link hank....see if you can understand them :D
Allo Allo... officer crabtree (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/a/video_clips/alloallo_7770250_2.shtml)
vidcc
03-18-2005, 07:46 PM
Could some wan tell me whit he said.:whistling
http://www.hebborn.btinternet.co.uk/rab_c_nesbitt.jpg
Ar wel tel ye das....AR WEL TEL YE DAS !!!
awar wi ya :unsure:
Busyman
03-18-2005, 07:55 PM
I appreciate that.... in your posting absence i tried to point out that Americans speak "American" and not "English"... very very close but different none the less.
check this link hank....see if you can understand them :D
Allo Allo... officer crabtree (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/a/video_clips/alloallo_7770250_2.shtml)
We speak English. Accents are just that.
Akcayents are jest thayat.
manker
03-18-2005, 08:23 PM
We speak English. Accents are just that.Not so.
An accent does not encompass different spelling. Vid is right, American English is not English.
American English is not English.Oxymoron. :blink:
manker
03-18-2005, 08:38 PM
Oxymoron. :blink:Good point :lol:
Busyman's distinct lack of logic must be affecting me ;)
Busyman
03-18-2005, 08:42 PM
Not so.
An accent does not encompass different spelling. Vid is right, American English is not English.
Theater or theatre...big deal.
No one was talking about spelling except you.
We speak English.
wanker logic....an oxymoron. :dry:
manker
03-18-2005, 08:56 PM
You just said talking when you meant writing. Ironic that, as it partially disproves your point.
The two are inextricably linked. If you spoke English then everytime you wrote something you'd spell it in English.
Spelling is not the only difference between American English and English, there are also totally different words for things. Like lemonade. (also; trunk/boot, hood/bonnet)
Prepositions are different, I'm on a team/I'm in a team.
Loads of other stuff too, I shouldn't wonder.
You don't speak English, muthafucka.
bigboab
03-18-2005, 09:02 PM
This brings back memories of UKMan. He once typed a message with an English accent. He typed lock instead of loch. :lol: :lol:
Wonder how he is getting on? :(
Busyman
03-18-2005, 09:10 PM
You just said talking when you meant writing. Ironic that, as it partially disproves your point.
The two are inextricably linked. If you spoke English then everytime you wrote something you'd spell it in English.
Spelling is not the only difference between American English and English, there are also totally different words for things. Like lemonade. (also; trunk/boot, hood/bonnet)
Prepositions are different, I'm on a team/I'm in a team.
Loads of other stuff too, I shouldn't wonder.
You don't speak English, muthafucka.
My use of the word talking was on purpose hence the italics whether it was written or not.
You wanted to point out vid was right about something that he didn't bring up.
The spoken word versus the written.
I could ask a Georgian in America to write something down and I get it but if he tells me out loud then I might not understand it.
Accents. What you point out exists in your own country and all over Europe ffs.
We all speak English....bitch ass nitpicker.
Did you understand that or should I send voicemail? :huh:
manker
03-18-2005, 09:19 PM
My use of the word talking was on purpose hence the italics whether it was written or not.
You wanted to point out vid was right about something that he didn't bring up.
The spoken word versus the written.
I could ask a Georgian in America to write something down and I get it but if he tells me out loud then I might not understand it.
Accents. What you point out exists in your own country and all over Europe ffs.
We all speak English....bitch ass nitpicker.
Did you understand that or should I send voicemail? :huh:Who knows where you're going with the rest of the irrelevance but what I point out only exists in colloquialisms in the UK, not in the dictionary.
I call a sink a bosh, but that isn't in the dictionary. You call a boot a trunk and it's in the American-English dictionary.
That's the point. You officially don't speak English.
Sorry to break it to you so bluntly, old chap.
vidcc
03-18-2005, 09:22 PM
No busy you speak a variation of English. You also write a variatation of English. As I said the difference is very small, often unoticable.....but there is a difference.
There is an old saying about two countries separated by a common language.... It wasn't said without justification
Everose
03-18-2005, 10:02 PM
I was fixing it as you posted.
What do you think on the subject though? (It would be nice to get more American views)
For myself, Vidcc, I am fascinated with other languages. The only other language I know other than my American/English is sign language. I find myself having to force my hands to my sides when around those speaking other languages, because it is the sign language that I try first to communicate with them with. I have read with interest the American/English discussion in the rest of this thread and wanted to share with you that it is no different in sign language. In learning sign language, my step son's education seem to vary year by year. One year they would try to teach him Standard English Sign Language. The next year American Sign Language. Back and forth we went. The amazing thing that transpired with my strong willed step son was that even though he learned and knows both now, if you really want to communicate with him, you have to learn Joshua's Sign Language...........kind of his own language, which turned out to be his favorites of both languages. :)
Does this boy and his father have a point (with the reasons he gave) or do you think I have one?
I pity this boy and his father, and it is their loss, by the way. Why do people limit their world so? This was Foreign National Language Week, a time to learn and grow. They chose to stagnate.
Even if you believe this boy has a point should he get away with boycotting school?
If the boy chooses to not attend school, school policy should be enforced, regardless of his reasons. He made the choice knowing school policy.
bigboab
03-18-2005, 10:04 PM
I call a sink a bosh, but that isn't in the dictionary.
Yes it is. In your statement it would come under the Trough definition of Bosh.
Websters Third International Dictionary.Volume 1.
InDaPocket
03-18-2005, 10:29 PM
You don't speak English, muthafucka.
Hroðgar maþelode, helm Scyldinga:
"Ic hine cuðe cnihtwesende.
Wæs his ealdfæder Ecgþeo haten,
ðæm to ham forgeaf Hreþel Geata
angan dohtor; is his eafora nu
heard her cumen, sohte holdne wine.
ðonne sægdon þæt sæliþende,
þa ðe gifsceattas Geata fyredon
þyder to þance, þæt he XXXtiges
manna mægencræft on his mundgripe
heaþorof hæbbe. Hine halig god
for arstafum us onsende,
to Westdenum, þæs ic wen hæbbe,
wið Grendles gryre. Ic þæm godan sceal
for his modþræce madmas beodan.
Beo ðu on ofeste, hat in gan
seon sibbegedriht samod ætgædere;
gesaga him eac wordum þæt hie sint wilcuman
Deniga leodum."
word inne abead:
"Eow het secgan sigedrihten min,
aldor Eastdena, þæt he eower æþelu can,
ond ge him syndon ofer sæwylmas
heardhicgende hider wilcuman.
Nu ge moton gangan in eowrum guðgewædum
under heregriman Hroðgar geseon;
lætað hildebord her onbidan,
wudu, wælsceaftas, worda geþinges."
Aras þa se rica, ymb hine rinc manig,
þryðlic þegna heap; sume þær bidon,
heaðoreaf heoldon, swa him se hearda bebead.
Edit: just wondering, since you are telling others what they do and do not speak properly, what Africaneers speak proper Swahili? I mean there are over 50 different dialects of this language. Surely if trunk/boot seems to chaff you, have 50 different words talking about the same thing in 50 different places must drive you ape mad?
he was only pointing out that it wasn't officially english, he attached no value to his or or anyone's use of colloquialisms beyond that, he was just stating facts.
And what does your quoting of old english have to do with anything?
manker
03-19-2005, 12:25 AM
Edit: just wondering, since you are telling others what they do and do not speak properly, what Africaneers speak proper Swahili? I mean there are over 50 different dialects of this language. Surely if trunk/boot seems to chaff you, have 50 different words talking about the same thing in 50 different places must drive you ape mad?I'm not telling anyone what they're speaking properly, only which language they're speaking. Is that okay.
Why would people speaking Swahili chaff - or maybe you meant chafe - me. I would say that there are far more than 50 regional variations of English and that doesn't bother me one bit. There are 57 varieties of Heinz and I'm okay with that too.
Do you have a point or did you just take issue with me teasing Busyman in that excerpt of mine you posted.
manker
03-19-2005, 12:30 AM
Yes it is. In your statement it would come under the Trough definition of Bosh.
Websters Third International Dictionary.Volume 1.:dry: :lol:
I call a cuddle a cwtch, and that aint in the dictionary.
Btw, bosh isn't under that definition on dictionary.com.
InDaPocket
03-19-2005, 01:02 AM
I'm not telling anyone what they're speaking properly, only which language they're speaking. Is that okay.
Why would people speaking Swahili chaff - or maybe you meant chafe - me. I would say that there are far more than 50 regional variations of English and that doesn't bother me one bit. There are 57 varieties of Heinz and I'm okay with that too.
Do you have a point or did you just take issue with me teasing Busyman in that excerpt of mine you posted.
Actually, chaff is correct.
manker
03-19-2005, 01:14 AM
Actually, chaff is correct.Really.
Chaff. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chaff)
Chafe. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chafe)
You meant that a linguistic nuance makes fun of me in a good natured way :unsure:
hobbes
03-19-2005, 01:20 AM
Really.
Chaff. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chaff)
Chafe. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chafe)
You meant that a linguistic nuance makes fun of me in a good natured way :unsure:
Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).
Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.
manker
03-19-2005, 01:35 AM
Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).
Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.I can't speak Welsh but what you say is right, some Welsh people, not I, particularly, do take issue at that.
In West Wales, where the prime real-estate is, it is not uncommon for shop workers to start talking Welsh on hearing an English twang. That may be as much to do with general tribalism and an aversion to English folk as real-estate issues but there are extreme groups that burn down English owned holiday homes. It seems to have abated but a few years ago it was a recurring theme on the news.
vidcc
03-19-2005, 01:59 AM
Do you speak Welsh when British people are around. I read a novel based in Wales and although it was a horror novel, the obviously Welsh author had definite issues with the British and their penchant for buying up prime real-estate for retirement homes (Homes to retire to, not that place for old people).
Sort of a snub was to exclude British patrons at a bar by speaking only in Welsh.
Welsh people are british....you are talking about English people buying up land in wales thus pricing the locals out of the market.
Edit: manker already sort of said that
manker
03-19-2005, 02:02 AM
Welsh people are british....you are talking about English people buying up land in wales thus pricing the locals out of the marketWell, I did start us down Pedant Street, I suppose.
vidcc
03-19-2005, 02:03 AM
could you please give me time to edit :angry: :D
manker
03-19-2005, 02:06 AM
could you please give me time to edit :angry: :D:lol:
You edited yet you still didn't capitalise Wales or Britain, but you did with England. You heartless brute.
Busyman
03-19-2005, 04:23 AM
Who knows where you're going with the rest of the irrelevance but what I point out only exists in colloquialisms in the UK, not in the dictionary.
I call a sink a bosh, but that isn't in the dictionary. You call a boot a trunk and it's in the American-English dictionary.
That's the point. You officially don't speak English.
Sorry to break it to you so bluntly, old chap.
Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.
You try and define it as an entirely different language. It is not.
In essence, a mere variation of a language is not a different language otherwise NO ONE speaks English. :dry:
manker
03-20-2005, 03:38 PM
Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.
You try and define it as an entirely different language. It is not.
In essence, a mere variation of a language is not a different language otherwise NO ONE speaks English. :dry:I speak English, you speak American English.
They are different languages with different words and different grammatical rules. It is official.
What the hell are you arguing about :huh:
Irrelevance? If I speak American-English it is still English...called it a colloquialism of English or whatever the fuck.
The effectiveness of your harangue is mitigated somewhat by the gratuitous insertion of the emboldened German derivation, B.
Please chasten yourself severely; for me to do it would be a grievous overstep.
Thank you.
vidcc
03-20-2005, 04:00 PM
@J2
As an American it would be nice to get your take on the thread subject...... What is your opinion on the boycott?
Let me review it for sec...
I may also need to have a nosh; I'll get to it, though.
At first blush, it would seem that, in the obviously politically-correct context of "International Languages Week", such a presentation would be appropriate; looked upon strictly as an exercise in the literal translation of words from one language to another, it might serve if the ultimate aim was to foment interest in the general subject of languages, individually or collectively.
I am also struck by the rather obvious incongruence of reciting the American "Pledge of Allegiance" in ANY foreign language, for any reason other than the ones I have mentioned.
It would be just as fitting (if only slightly more incongruent) to be reciting the equivalent words of other countries in English.
I hereby pronounce the entire project idiotic and ill-advised, though it isn't clever enough to considered subversive.
In my humble American opinion.
vidcc
03-20-2005, 04:31 PM
I am also struck by the rather obvious incongruence of reciting the American "Pledge of Allegiance" in ANY foreign language, for any reason other than the ones I have mentioned.
What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?
HeavyMetalParkingLot
03-20-2005, 04:58 PM
And what about us Spanglish speakers?
fkdup74
03-20-2005, 05:31 PM
English is the official language of the United States except for New Mexico which is English and Spanish.
ahhhh....
you never been to southern California have you? :P
there's also Texas, Arizona, with established Hispanic communities,
as well as Florida, I am sure, with the Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican immigrants
funny, because they seem to have the same beef about the Spanish language
that some seem to have about the English language
at least between people from Old Mexico vs those that have emmigrated
whats it all boil down to?
people are just itching for an argument, no matter the topic, IMO :P
we are ALL immigrants in America, save for the Native Americans
my ancestors, so you can all stfu & gtfo :P
(you know, the ones the Spaniards called "Indians" when they hit the wrong continent)
"America is the melting pot of the world."
heard that said somewhere, and how true it is
as for the kid that got in a huff about the Pledge....
he needs to have his ass kicked :lol:
I dont buy into that "let's bitch & protest" mentality
leave that for the liberals and left-wing psychos
that kid is NOT American, he's some new breed of Nazi or somethin
he's probably the same type of person (as well as his dad)....
that would use words like "n*gger", "sp*c", "w*tback", etc. :dry:
What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?
Why?
As part of "International Language Week"?
As a normal course of events?
I thought I made it clear such strenuous exertion merely to provide a context in which to say the Pledge in a foreign language is a defective notion.
"International Language Week" could have consisted of a variety of exercises such as "construct an autobiographical statement in one of these foreign languages".
The fact those in charge thought it necessary to begin the day with a foreign-language recitation of the Pledge is indicative of a tremendous mis-understanding of the mechanics of learning; was it intended that listening to or saying the pledge that way would somehow imbue the participant with a much-needed empathy for practitioners of that particular language?
As to the mis-guided urge to ease the way for our southern neighbors by assimilating Americans to them, instead of the other way around, that is precisely the reason for our immigration problem.
After all, we don't have any similar difficulties with the hoards of Canadians pouring over our northern borders, do we? :D
And what about us Spanglish speakers?
Type something in Spanglish; I will attempt to translate. :)
hobbes
03-20-2005, 05:46 PM
What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?
As to the kid and his boycott, throw him to the lions.
But if we are to live in New Mexico and the children are allowed to recite it in Spanish, let's look at the words they are saying:
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic
for which it stands.
One nation,
under God,
indivisible
with liberty and justice
for all.
Pero,
no quiero aprender el idioma
So it makes no sense to say it in Spanish if you want to think of us as one nation, indivisible. The very recital of the pledge would divide classrooms with some saying it in English and some in Spanish.
A language barrier, if you will.
Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.
SideSwiped
03-20-2005, 05:50 PM
Well, the school playing the pledge in different languages was a pretty cool idea. If I weren't a native English speaker I would feel more a part of America that someone took the time to say the Pledge in my own tongue. However, the compromise which was reached AFTER the kid whined should really have been thought of beforehand. In today's age of everyone whining and sueing everyone else because they were called a bad name or they're ideologies were contradicted in some form, one would think the compromise the only sensible thing to do.
Thinking of these ppl as neo nazis is ridiculous. Good for them for loving the country they live in, even if it is a bit overzealous.
It sort of reminds me of a quote by Clint Eastwood.
"If you move far enough to the right, you'll run into the same kind of idiot coming from the left."
As to the kid and his boycott, throw him to the lions.
But if we are to live in New Mexico and the children are allowed to recite it in Spanish, let's look at the words they are saying:
I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic
for which it stands.
One nation,
under God,
indivisible
with liberty and justice
for all.
Pero,
no quiero aprender el idioma
So it makes no sense to say it in Spanish if you want to think of us as one nation, indivisible. The very recital of the pledge would divide classrooms with some saying it in English and some in Spanish.
A language barrier, if you will.
Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.
Simply and elegantly put, sir.
hobbes
03-20-2005, 05:57 PM
[QUOTE=FKDUP74]ahhhh....
QUOTE]
I live in San Antonio and my parents live in San Diego, I know exactly what people are speaking.
"Official language" means that state documents/services must be in English. Doesn't mean people have to speak it.
fkdup74
03-20-2005, 05:57 PM
Thinking of these ppl as neo nazis is ridiculous. Good for them for loving the country they live in, even if it is a bit overzealous.
hmmm.....so it's a "good thing"....
that the Klan loves their country....
even if thier method is a bit over zealous?
:whistling
If I weren't a non-native English speaker I would feel more a part of America that someone took the time to say the Pledge in my own tongue.
...It sort of reminds me of a quote by Clint Eastwood.
"If you move far enough to the right, you'll run into the same kind of idiot coming from the left."
How did you feel when you were finally able to say the Pledge in English, SS? :huh:
BTW-
I had forgotten the Eastwood quote; thanks for recalling it.
fkdup74
03-20-2005, 06:02 PM
I live in San Antonio and my parents live in San Diego, I know exactly what people are speaking.
"Official language" means that state documents/services must be in English. Doesn't mean people have to speak it.
oops :blushing:
i was was going more along the lines of...
the "Un-official-official" language
InDaPocket
03-20-2005, 06:07 PM
we are ALL immigrants in America, save for the Native Americans
Native Americans are of Asian descent :P
SideSwiped
03-20-2005, 06:10 PM
No, you missed it.
This boy and his father need not be 'Klan' members nor Neo Nazis.
How about I pose it to you this way?
Do you remember, or did you hear about a school in CA, in which, the board had decided to disallow the display of the American flag during graduation ceremonies? If not, you ought to check it out. Anyway, would I be right in saying that the faculty or school board is full of ppl that hate America and should all be prosecuted for high treason?
By calling or accusing someone or a group of ppl of something which you cannot possibly know to be true or not, are you not as bad seeming as they? Is not your view as narrow as theirs by jumping to conclusions? Maybe there is an underlying cause for such hostility.
Maybe their point of view was misconstrued, or they lacked the capacity to state it clearly. This is something we will never know.
I don't agree with them, I don't agree with a lot of people over many issues, but because I disagree, does not make them an idiot.
Besides, who was hurt in this incident? They didn't burn down the school, they didn't harass their neighbors, they didn't go out and threaten all immigrants they came accross. Just another case of misplaced anger and someones sensibilities being offended.
SideSwiped
03-20-2005, 06:19 PM
How did you feel when you were finally able to say the Pledge in English, SS? :huh:
I felt proud, and I believe in the pledge.
On the side...........
I forgot something very important to this topic. What they did was wrong, but, they don't realize that all naturalized American citizens must recite the Pledge before receiving their citizenship papers, so, it really doesn't matter if for the sake of honoring a week of appreciation to this great melting pot that it was said in languages other than English.
Maybe their point of view was misconstrued, or they lacked the capacity to state it clearly. This is something we will never know.
I don't agree with them, I don't agree with a lot of people over many issues, but because I disagree, does not make them an idiot.
They likened it to hanging a cross upside down in a church ffs.
Do you know how wrong some people think that would be?
In essence they look down on all other languages used in the USA and that includes the official non-english ones.
The impression one might get from that is that they view people who don't have english as their first language as being of lesser worth. And that they don't feel other people have the right to their own language and an American citizenship at the same time.
Pride is all right, but this is stupid. And intolerant.
I do agree, in part at least, with the notion that there should be one official language everyone had to learn in school (English in your case), but that doesn't mean that speaking an oath in another language is somehow equal to heresy. Nor do I believe that one language and that language alone should be the only language allowed in public, bilinguality is after all a good thing, and something we all benefit from later in life.
And there really isn't that great a tradition to uphold that makes the official recitation of the same oath in the another language unthinkable, yours is a nation just a couple of centuries old, if there was any linguistic tradition that should be observed it would be the reading of the oath in a native american language, because the country was theirs so very long before it became yours.
I felt proud, and I believe in the pledge.
On the side...........
I forgot something very important to this topic. What they did was wrong, but, they don't realize that all naturalized American citizens must recite the Pledge before receiving their citizenship papers, so, it really doesn't matter if for the sake of honoring a week of appreciation to this great melting pot that it was said in languages other than English.
I appreciate your pride in the pledge.
I understand how you might have felt assuaged and comforted by a recitation of same in your native language (which would be what, BTW?), but I hope at this remove you can likewise appreciate what may have presented to you as a "club" to which you weren't entitled full "membership" until you had passed muster by demonstrating a genuine interest in belonging, which you have done by learning the language and (I assume) becoming naturalized.
Corny as it may seem, I am proud that my country attracts immigrants who actually desire to integrate themselves, and also proud of people like yourself who actually do see the positive need to assimilate.
Well done.
BTW-I thought the aegis for the foreign-language recitation was "International Language Week", not an appreciation of the "melting pot"?
I don't recall mention of this; I will re-read the starter.
....because the country was theirs so very long before it became yours...
...and someone else's long before that.
...and someone else's long before that.
Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current (in majority) Caucasian population has been a majority there.
Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?
Just thinking out loud now, mind.
InDaPocket
03-20-2005, 06:59 PM
Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current (in majority) Caucasian population has been a majority there.
Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?
Just thinking out loud now, mind.
One of the big differences between then and now is the fact that Native Americans had no concept of ownership of land. Why fight for what can not be owned? Kids these days fight for ownership of shoes....
Still, it was inhabited by what is today known as Native Americans (or more crudely "Indians") for much longer than the current Caucasian population has been a majority there.
Looking by the ease and lack of afterthought with which they were replaced, would it be that unfair if the next wave of immigrants in turn replaced your language with their own, ie spanish, if the hispanic community becomes a majority?
Just thinking out loud now, mind.
Most conquering peoples find themselves fraught with the need for much "afterthinking", SnnY, and fairness is, in the moment, a minor consideration.
Another difference is the methodology of the current "attack".
Out loud, then:
If assimilation/integration/time have their usual effect, to the extent the now-native and dominant Latino population finds itself communicating in English, what cockeyed brand of reasoning might possess them to harken back to their original language?
One of the big differences between then and now is the fact that Native Americans had no concept of ownership of land. Why fight for what can not be owned? Kids these days fight for ownership of shoes....
He looks askance at the steering wheel of the thread, mulling a new heading...
vidcc
03-20-2005, 07:11 PM
@ hobbes
I would take more heed of the indivisible part of the arguement if we weren't so divided. We have different laws and even different punishments in the different states. We have divided attitudes based on location.
when we do come together it is something special..... i do sometimes wish that the something special could be the norm.
@ all
I do believe that to become a citizen one should have a reasonable vocabulary in the official tounge and the pledge should be said in that language.
This thread is about the foriegn language week...not every week and that's why i made it about forgetting our roots and that the boy was being disrespectful to his history.
That said there is no law that requires the pledge to be said...just that one has to be respectful. If someone stands and says the pledge in a different language alongside those using English i wouldn't see that as being disrespectful because it is the pledge that matters and not the language it is said in. We had the debate a while back about saying it without using the words "under God"....I doubt many would suggest that the whole pledge should be boycotted just because one doesn't believe in God and wishes to omitt those two words
SideSwiped
03-20-2005, 07:18 PM
They likened it to hanging a cross upside down in a church ffs.
Do you know how wrong some people think that would be?
In essence they look down on all other languages used in the USA and that includes the official non-english ones.
The impression one might get from that is that they view people who don't have english as their first language as being of lesser worth.
I suppose on the cross issue, yes, that would give an impression of complete intolerance. I, personally, didn't give it a thought. I tend to ignore religious comparisons because religion is a very personal and private matter for me.
That too could very well be true.
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
I was not so moderate once. I saw in them what I used to feel when I was a teenager, only, my reaction was not about the Pledge or being an American, my intolerance and misplaced hatred was for homosexuals. Maybe in time and with luck the boy will change his feelings.
SideSwiped
03-20-2005, 07:27 PM
I understand how you might have felt assuaged and comforted by a recitation of same in your native language (which would be what, BTW?), but I hope at this remove you can likewise appreciate what may have presented to you as a "club" to which you weren't entitled full "membership" until you had passed muster by demonstrating a genuine interest in belonging, which you have done by learning the language and (I assume) becoming naturalized.
I need to apologize to you j2k4. I read your post and was confused, until I reread mine and saw the weird double negative. I am American. My grandparents and great grandparents emmigrated here in the early 20th century. In a way, I am the melting pot. Italian, Greek, German, Sweedish, Polish and Jewish, what a mess eh?
And you are correct, it is about international language week, I used 'melting pot' to stress that it shouldn't have mattered.
Whether born here or naturalized, American is American. My only gripe about that is ppl calling themselves 'African American','Hispanic American', 'Asian American'. Either you're here or your not. That in itself can lead to resentment.
If assimilation/integration/time have their usual effect, to the extent the now-native and dominant Latino population finds itself communicating in English, what cockeyed brand of reasoning might possess them to harken back to their original language?
Pride in their history?
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
I'm not upset :unsure:
But I do think that there more to it than a misplaced sense of pride, or a lack of eloquence. And that it's quite understandable why someone would take offence to their behavior, I don't know whether they are members of any nazi-affiliated organisation :lol: , but the way they behaved/spoke in this matter seems like idiocy and intolerance to me.
And a refusal to acknowledge that the rest of the world is full of people just like them, even tho' they can't understand these people.
Pride in their history?
Pride would supplant a logistical expedient?
I wouldn't think so, but I could be wro..nah-don't think so.
Remember, we'd be talking a dominance of numbers, not a dominance of culture, unless you propose a concurrent extermination?
J2: I don't know, it was mere speculation.
One could argue that the current situation is one were the hispanic group are spanish speakers first, and english speakers second. This would, possibly, create a situation where, if they became a majority, they would see it as their right to make spanish the primary language used in official situations, such as when reciting the pledge of allegience. :unsure: It would, after all, have been the language they identified themselves with all along.
This wouldn't be entirely wrong, would it? :unsure:
I need to apologize to you j2k4. I read your post and was confused, until I reread mine and saw the weird double negative. I am American. My grandparents and great grandparents emmigrated here in the early 20th century. In a way, I am the melting pot. Italian, Greek, German, Sweedish, Polish and Jewish, what a mess eh?
Egad.
Even I only claim German, Dutch, Swedish, Scots-Irish (whatever the hell that is), French, and American Indian.
Wait, that leaves us in a tie. :huh:
No need for an apology; always willing to cooperate to achieve maximum mis-understanding. :lol:
J2: I don't know, it was mere speculation.
One could argue that the current situation is one were the hispanic group are spanish speakers first, and english speakers second. This would, possibly, create a situation where, if they became a majority, they would see it as their right to make spanish the primary language used in official situations, such as when reciting the pledge of allegience. :unsure: It would, after all, have been the language they identified themselves with all along.
This wouldn't be entirely wrong, would it? :unsure:
Possibly not.
What I do know is that we've postulated ourselves to the very brink of absurdity, as well as going well past the cats' feeding time. ;)
hobbes
03-20-2005, 07:53 PM
@ hobbes
I would take more heed of the indivisible part of the arguement if we weren't so divided. We have different laws and even different punishments in the different states. We have divided attitudes based on location.
when we do come together it is something special..... i do sometimes wish that the something special could be the norm.
@ all
This thread is about the foriegn language week...not every week and that's why i made it about forgetting our roots and that the boy was being disrespectful to his history.
Vidcc, no barriers can be removed without communication.
The regional variances are more like condiments at McDonalds, then the main course. We all top our quarter-pounders a little bit differently, but we are all still eating hamburgers.
I had a friend from the Ukraine, who spoke perfect English at school. I remember being at his house for his birthday party and his Grandmother had arrived for the event. He would effortlessly alternate from speaking to us in English to her strictly in Ukrainian. We were all pretty impressed, not offended. Also my Jewish friends liked to write things in Hebrew which we thought was cool as well. We wanted them to write our names in Hebrew.
The bottom line is that they were Americans first and they believed in what the pledge states. Regional and personal differences don't really divide us as long as well all believe what our country is supposed to stand for.
As for laws, does anyone really go into a new State and get concerned that they will be arrested because they don't know the law? "I'm not going to Mississippi, I have no idea what the law is?" Crime is crime. If you like to kill people, you might want to consider what State you are in, but that is a bit of an extreme example, to demonstrate differences.
As to the second point, I must apologise. I thought we were pretty much in accord that the kid was being an idiot as it was "language week".
When you posted this to J2:
What would your thoughts be then if it was said in both English and spanish in New mexico?
I thought you were trying to alter the course of the thread a little. You know test the limits of what we would find acceptable.
Guess I misunderstood your intent.
hobbes
03-20-2005, 07:57 PM
Like I said, I don't agree, I don't have to agree. I am not defending nor condoning their actions. I am a moderate and strive to understand all sides of an issue. I would like to ask them why. What is it truly that upset them about this? And, what is it that truly upsets you?
.
I think this is the crux. This is why people are calling them idiots.
One gets the impression when reading the article that these people have no real idea why they are offended.
When your answer is "It just is.", it means you either haven't bothered to give the situation the intellectual evaluation it merits or you are just knee jerking some pre-programmed brainwashing.
I would like to think that I have a reason I can articulate for holding the opinions that I do.
I would like to think that I have a reason I can articulate for holding the opinions that I do.
Just so-
This segues rather neatly into a phrase I hold dear:
The Politics of Reason trumps the Politics of "Feeling".
vidcc
03-20-2005, 10:57 PM
@ hobbes
not going to quote...too many post gone by.... I wasn't trying to steer the thread beyond the original point however I asked the New Mexico question (my state) because it is noticably a bi-lingual state.... which I think is better than just one language ( English being my primary tongue and I hate it when anyone has the attitude "I speak English and that's good enough")
Yes not having the ability to understand to an acceptable level is a drawback, but it is not an excuse. I am weak in Spanish, but I am making the effort to learn so I am at least as good as my bi-lingual neighbours are in English.
You said language is a barrier to communications...I refer to the person that said about English being the second language...one can be just as good a patriot having English as a second language.
My personal view is that it is the belief in what the pledge says that is important...not the language it is said in.
Perhaps I did use an extreme example when I said about different laws...well look at the uproar over roe V wade and individuals states not wanting to be told what to do....look at the problem with gay unions being honoured in different states.... the list goes on and on.
on the "it just is" thing...... The boy and his father gave a reason why they thought it was wrong, so I don't think they gave it no basis (I know you didn't say they didn't), I just disagree with the way they see it.
As I said the USA is made up from immigration from many nations.... I wonder at what point the USA was considered "set in stone"? I believe that in a thousand years the language will be unrecognisable from today's, not because of immigration alone but through urban culture words and evolution. We already see new words with each edition of the dictionary.
One izzle snizzle crib in the low to the deity
fkdup74
03-20-2005, 11:51 PM
@sideswiped - i dont feel my likening this father/son to Nazis is really all that unfair
you can call my POV narrow if you wish, that is fair,
this is an open discussion after all, and i take no offense
but the fact is, these two were showing blatant intolerance
towards others' culture/language/etc
(and correct me if i am wrong, but didnt the kid SIT through the Pledge?
kind of hypocritical, wouldnt you think? after all the blabbing about respect?)
it was the same type of intolerance that led to the Holocaust
the same type of intolerance that led to the forming of the Klan
no, these guys didnt hang a black man from a tree,
nor did they march 6 million Jews to the gas chamber,
but put em in that situation, what do you think they would do?
considering the attitude they displayed?
given the right circumstances, i.e. knowing the right/wrong people...
i wouldnt put it past em to be sporting a shwastica(sp?) or a hangman's noose
Busyman
03-21-2005, 12:30 AM
The effectiveness of your harangue is mitigated somewhat by the gratuitous insertion of the emboldened German derivation, B.
Please chasten yourself severely; for me to do it would be a grievous overstep.
Thank you.
Don't get me wrong. I understand there are other influences on our region's language other than Britain and someone gave those nuances an official stamp.
My point is...he understands me and I understand him without me taking English class. The nuances are in a book.
French, German, and English may have similarities in verb conjugation, etc. but they are vastly different (hence their entirely different names :dry: ).
Officialness begone...if anything American English is a dialect of (the Queen's) English given a stamp due to water separation. It ain't tha same as what we did with da metric system or anything. :shifty:
hobbes
03-21-2005, 12:53 AM
@ hobbes
I asked the New Mexico question (my state) because it is noticably a bi-lingual state.... which I think is better than just one language
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
People can speak all the languages they wish, but I want to be able to travel to every corner of my country and be able to communicate and have some sort of common ground. This is no different than wanting my dollar here in Texas to still be a dollar in Wyoming.
Having 2 official languages has no merit and only promotes separation, not "indivisibility". I can't think of a single reason why 2 official languages has any value.
As far as patriotism is concerned, I cannot fathom a human being who is willing to die for a country for which he hasn't even bothered to learn the language.
Don't get me wrong. I understand there are other influences on our region's language other than Britain and someone gave those nuances and official stamp.
My point is...he understands me and I understand him without me taking English class. The nuances are in a book.
French, German, and English may have similarities in verb conjugation, etc. but they are vastly different (hence their entirely different names :dry: ).
Officialness begone...if anything American English is a dialect of (the Queen's) English given a stamp due to water separation. It ain't tha same as what we did with da metric system or anything. :shifty:
Yup.
It's all true. :)
Good job; please forgive my portentous and overbearing attempt at humor. :lol:
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
People can speak all the languages they wish, but I want to be able to travel to every corner of my country and be able to communicate and have some sort of common ground. This is no different than wanting my dollar here in Texas to still be a dollar in Wyoming.
Having 2 official languages has no merit and only promotes separation, not "indivisibility". I can't think of a single reason why 2 official languages has any value.
As far as patriotism is concerned, I cannot fathom a human being who is willing to die for a country for which he hasn't even bothered to learn the language.
Hobbes I have rarely observed a point being made with such clarity.
Did you by any chance attend the University of Mizzou? :P
Vid-
I empathize entirely with your urge to assimilate, but you must realize that you apply yourself to that particular task out of nothing more than the goodness of your own heart and a personal rationalization (which is commendable) that you might be a better neighbor and/or community member.
For the state to require it of you or it's agencies by way of accomodation accomplishes nothing, and is, as Hobbes says, a barrier to integration and race relations.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 02:16 AM
Why? I am at a complete loss as to how this is a good thing. This is not a tolerance issue, but a communication issue. Would you favor a nation that has 57 different languages?
You appear to think that New Mexico is promoting speaking one OR the other. What it is doing is promoting the ability to speak both. It just happens that it has a large Latin population so for this state it makes sense in not just unity of citizens but educationaly.....unless you think it is better to know just one language.
Yes there are some that are not up to speed with their English, and having two languages isn't just about the reasons I stated...there is the other great American "ethic"....that is supply and demand.
Unless we speak all languages then your excessive 57 would be unworkable, however more and more the Latino population is growing and instead of saying that they should speak American I see it as an opportunity for Americans to "improve themselves" by learning a second language. It is a two way street that I believe can benefit us all.
I hope this make what I am saying clearer than before
hobbes
03-21-2005, 02:22 AM
You appear to think that New Mexico is promoting speaking one OR the other. What it is doing is promoting the ability to speak both. It just happens that it has a large Latin population so for this state it makes sense in not just unity of citizens but educationaly.....unless you think it is better to know just one language.
Yes there are some that are not up to speed with their English, and having two languages isn't just about the reasons I stated...there is the other great American "ethic"....that is supply and demand.
Unless we speak all languages then your excessive 57 would be unworkable, however more and more the Latino population is growing and instead of saying that they should speak American I see it as an opportunity for Americans to "improve themselves" by learning a second language. It is a two way street that I believe can benefit us all.
I hope this make what I am saying clearer than before
By having a dual official language, New Mexico is unequivically promoting speaking one or the other. No doubt. Why learn both when everything is provided in the language you already know.
I don't care how many Hispanic, or Chinese, or whatever move here. The official language is English and if they they want to live here then they should learn our language.
Coming to America is completely elective and we bear no responsibility to change our ways to accomadate them. If we test the limits we could have 1 billion Chinese immigrants, so should we speak Chinese? No, this our country and they need to change their ways, not we ours.
How could learning Spanish benefit me in any way? None, none at all.
America has no responsibility to accomadate based on numbers. The country was founded and chartered in English. Anyone that comes here must not only agree to our philosophy, but speak our official language.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 02:25 AM
Vid-
I empathize entirely with your urge to assimilate, but you must realize that you apply yourself to that particular task out of nothing more than the goodness of your own heart and a personal rationalization (which is commendable) that you might be a better neighbor and/or community member.
My reply to hobbes clears up (I hope) why I have this view
For the state to require it of you or it's agencies by way of accomodation accomplishes nothing, and is, as Hobbes says, a barrier to integration and race relations.
I would suggest that I creates a barrier for you because you choose it to be.
I don't know how to say this without it seeming personal..but it isn't my intention for it to be...... the "If they come here they should intergrate to us" thing shouldn't be taken as being give up anything else.
I know you agree that other nations have things to offer but I do sometimes feel that people have the attitude that instead of "adding" to our (this doesn't just apply to the USA) culture, they are in fact trying to take over and destroy the culture. This just isn't true.
America has a culture based on many, when did culture suddenly become set in stone.
hobbes
03-21-2005, 02:29 AM
My reply to hobbes clears up (I hope) why I have this view
America has a culture based on many, when did culture suddenly become set in stone.
The official language in America is English.
Notice that all signs are in this language. Do we need 57 different sets of road signs to accomadate everyone?
If I moved to France, I would learn French, not expect their government to provide everything to me in English.
I am not a carebear that thinks that I should learn Chinese, Japanese, French, Polish, German, Russian, and Spanish as an opportunity to better understand those flocking to my country. It is the opposite.
My ancestors spoke something other than English, but understood that speaking English was how to best assimilate in a new land.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 02:46 AM
America has no responsibility to accomadate base on numbers.
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
The country was founded and chartered in English. Anyone that comes here must not only agree to our philosophy, but speak our official language.
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
bigboab
03-21-2005, 12:10 PM
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
I tend to disagree with this view. The age of the Internet IMO requires a single language, which appears to, at the moment,be favouring English. There was a big hullabaloo at the loss of Latin a few years back. If a language is not getting used, let it die.
If you visit Wales, North Scotland or the Republic of Ireland you will find signposts in two languages. I bet that the people who were shouting for this were not the majority who payed for them. There are more signposts in Gaelic than Gaelic speakers. :lol:
manker
03-21-2005, 12:59 PM
I tend to disagree with this view. The age of the Internet IMO requires a single language, which appears to, at the moment,be favouring English. There was a big hullabaloo at the loss of Latin a few years back. If a language is not getting used, let it die.
If you visit Wales, North Scotland or the Republic of Ireland you will find signposts in two languages. I bet that the people who were shouting for this were not the majority who payed for them. There are more signposts in Gaelic than Gaelic speakers. :lol:I can see some cold reasoning there that makes sense, unfortunately people just aren't like that.
If you let a language die then part of that community's culture will die too. As I said, I cannot speak Welsh - and to be perfectly honest the dual-language sign-posts are superfluous from an outsider's point of view but the fact that I see Croeso i Cymru on my way back over the Severn Bridge gives me, and most Welshmen, a tingle of pride that Welcome to Wales never could.
If not many people visited Edinburgh Castle, you wouldn't want to knock it down.
bigboab
03-21-2005, 01:48 PM
If not many people visited Edinburgh Castle, you wouldn't want to knock it down.
I dont know that many people that speak 'Edinburgh Castle'. Spider Dude maybe. :rolleyes:
Sorry Liam. I could be wrong. You are possibly more Haymarket. :unsure:
manker
03-21-2005, 01:55 PM
I dont know that many people that speak 'Edinburgh Castle'. Spider Dude maybe. :rolleyes: :lol:
I'll be the grammar police, you can be the analogy cop.
Busyman
03-21-2005, 02:24 PM
The official language in America is English.
Notice that all signs are in this language. Do we need 57 different sets of road signs to accomadate everyone?
If I moved to France, I would learn French, not expect their government to provide everything to me in English.
I am not a carebear that thinks that I should learn Chinese, Japanese, French, Polish, German, Russian, and Spanish as an opportunity to better understand those flocking to my country. It is the opposite.
My ancestors spoke something other than English, but understood that speaking English was how to best assimilate in a new land.
Damn hobbes you make so many good points that it's hard to even add to it. :lol: :lol:
We need our immigration laws tightened. The Hispanic population has grown due to "jumping the fence" and then being granted citizenship. In contrast, blacks, the "other" minority here, were brought over here and we fucked our brains out. Not alot of immigration but fornication. :w00t: :shifty:
Again, there is a large number that refuse to learn English.
By having a dual official language, New Mexico is unequivically promoting speaking one or the other.
Very good point. By having another official language (Spanish) you essentially say to the folks that only speak Spanish that there is no need to learn English.
The only folks that care about the Spanish language presence in our country are politicians and marketing gurus.
Comcast has a Spanish package on digital cable and politicians love to bring voters in "over the fence".
hobbes
03-21-2005, 02:37 PM
Since when did the lack of responsibility mean that something shouldn't be done?
I have already said that part of becoming a citizen should be a minimum vocabulary. My point is that a second language is a good thing. If you wish to be left behind and live in a small world that's your choice, nobody is forcing you to learn anything and for your particular field of employment perhaps you may not need a second language, but today's world is not just America. More and more we are dealing on the international market...so tell me what is so beneficial in a nation that is mono-lingual? On the world market the old speaking slowly and loudly doesn't make them understand.
A nation of children growing up with the ability to communicate on the world market IS a good thing. It broadens opportunity.
I think that there is a distinct line between, "I think it is a good idea to have exposure and knowledge of other languages, especially in today's global market" and "Having more than 1 official language is a good thing."
For instance, I think it is a good thing to have a "foreign language" requirements in high school and college. I took Spanish and Latin and I personally enjoyed those classes. I do not think it is good to have 2 official languages because it has no role other than 2 divide people within the same country. I don't want to be asking for directions in some small town in New Mexico and have no one around able to understand me. Or send my child to school taught in Spanish because that is what the majority that live their speak. This is America, not "little Mexico", we already have a language. If we add Spanish, then where do we stop adding new "official" languages.
We did this little experiment before in the Old West. Each bank would print it's own currency. Problem was it was not readily transferrable due to lack of security behind all those different currencies. It was chaos, you never knew if the next town would accept the money you were carrying or not. The solution was to create a single currency that was insured in gold by the treasury. One country, one official currency, one official language- it just makes sense.
Language in the future will become more homogenized with this interweb thingey though, I've personally added quite a few Scottish favorite to my vocabulary and they are permeating the minds of those who are forced to work with me. Troubling aspect is that is all profanity.
It's quite possible to have two or more official languages without giving them the same status.
We have one official language used by the majority here, that's the one that goes on road-signs and similar. Then there are a bunch of minority-languages, and some information is available in these languages, but one language is still the norm. It works quite well.
Children whose first language/whose parents' first language isn't the norm learn the norm, and their own, and they have a right to learning their own language as a subject in school ("hemspråk/native language").
Being bilingual is never a bad thing, it has been proven that people learning two or more languages stand to gain a lot, both by having a greater ability to communicate, and by being better at learning yet more languages.
Your first language is, psychologically, an important part of your identity, and something you should be allowed to keep.
I've noticed that some of you use the expression "assimilation" rather than "integration", assimilation is usually regarded as being more negative since it's a loss of part of your ethnicity and identity, as opposed to integration where your ethnicity remains intact while you become a part of society. Many countries today strive towards integration as it's been proven to be better for the individual. And an important part of this is that you get to keep your own language.
Busyman
03-21-2005, 03:17 PM
It's quite possible to have two or more official languages without giving them the same status.
We have one official language used by the majority here, that's the one that goes on road-signs and similar. Then there are a bunch of minority-languages, and some information is available in these languages, but one language is still the norm. It works quite well.
Children whose first language/whose parents' first language isn't the norm learn the norm, and their own, and they have a right to learning their own language as a subject in school ("hemspråk/native language").
Being bilingual is never a bad thing, it has been proven that people learning two or more languages stand to gain a lot, both by having a greater ability to communicate, and by being better at learning yet more languages.
Your first language is, psychologically, an important part of your identity, and something you should be allowed to keep.
I've noticed that some of you use the expression "assimilation" rather than "integration", assimilation is usually regarded as being more negative since it's a loss of part of your ethnicity and identity, as opposed to integration where your ethnicity remains intact while you become a part of society. Many countries today strive towards integration as it's been proven to be better for the individual. And an important part of this is that you get to keep your own language.
I'm not saying Hispanics shouldn't keep their language. I'm saying they should learn ours. I know how others feel when they walk into a store and just about all the employees don't speak English (especially McDonald's :lol: :lol: )
Politicians have their head so far up the voting booth's ass that they don't take a firm stand on the issue.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 03:29 PM
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
@ boab
your view shows laziness.... "why should I learn another language when everyone else made the effort to learn English?"..... I know you are no spring chicken but come on...let the empire attitude go....India has it's own flag.
HeavyMetalParkingLot
03-21-2005, 03:49 PM
I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English
As someone how grew up in the hispanic community, I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 03:50 PM
As someone how grew up in the hispanic community, I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
and those people will only be able to cut hobbes grass for a living.
MCHeshPants420
03-21-2005, 03:59 PM
My tutor marked my last piece of coursework in American-English. :glare:
So I threw her in the harbor.
Busyman
03-21-2005, 04:04 PM
I have to say, there were far more people who spoke only spanish and didn't give a whip about english.
Same here. If they don't have to learn it well......
HeavyMetalParkingLot
03-21-2005, 04:04 PM
I agree with you that being bi-lingual is becoming more and more an important job qualification. But what determines which languages people should have to know? Around here English and Spanish are the prodominant languages, but there are also Vietnamese speakers, Chinese speakers, Japanese speakers, Korean speakers, Samoan speakers, and so on and so on. I myself am already bi-lingual, but say if I move to Minnesota, I may as well only speak English. Should I then have to learn yet another language just to live somewhere? I mean I already speak English and 98% of the time, everything around me will be in English. Should I have to learn a couple Native American languages so I can order a hamburger at whatever fast food joint I step into?
Busyman
03-21-2005, 04:16 PM
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
@ boab
your view shows laziness.... "why should I learn another language when everyone else made the effort to learn English?"..... I know you are no spring chicken but come on...let the empire attitude go....India has it's own flag.
What are you on about? I said they should learn our language not become us.
So what now...they come over here and I'm supposed to learn their language?
Fuck that shit!! :dry:
That's the whole reason there Comcast has a Spanish Pack. There are tons of Spanish-only speaking paying customers.
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 04:44 PM
What are you on about? I said they should learn our language not become us.
So what now...they come over here and I'm supposed to learn their language?
Fuck that shit!! :dry:
That's the whole reason there Comcast has a Spanish Pack. There are tons of Spanish-only speaking paying customers.
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?. I have even said that there are some that don't have a suitable English vocabulary, and that is their loss.
you also still look at it in one sentence as having to learn to placate them... but that is not the way i am putting the case
your other sentence is
You also touched on a very good point about an "oppurtunity to gain" which is why things are going this way.
Busyman
03-21-2005, 04:58 PM
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?. I have even said that there are some that don't have a suitable English vocabulary, and that is their loss.
you also still look at it in one sentence as having to learn to placate them... but that is not the way i am putting the case
Well now since they don't have to learn English then this whole argument is a wash and part of the problem...them not learning English.
I don't have a problem with Comcast's Spanish Pack, just merely pointing out that many hispanics not having to learn English is the object of marketing gurus attention.
America is placating them.
I am forced to learn their language if I want to communicate in a place of business. Hamburger and fries please. H-A-M-B-U-R-G-E-R A-N-D F-R-I-E-S. :angry:
vidcc
03-21-2005, 05:26 PM
Well now since they don't have to learn English then this whole argument is a wash and part of the problem...them not learning English.
perhaps you should take an English remedial class because you seem to be having a problem yourself
And I've said they should learn English to become a citizen
I don't have a problem with Comcast's Spanish Pack, just merely pointing out that many hispanics not having to learn English is the object of marketing gurus attention.
America is placating them. no, that is a business seizing and exploiting an opportunity....how is that "America"
I am forced to learn their language if I want to communicate in a place of business. Hamburger and fries please. H-A-M-B-U-R-G-E-R A-N-D F-R-I-E-S. :angry:
Well just don't go to that outlet...you are not forced to.... if a company loses customers because they can't understand then the company will fail because of bad business choices....It's not rocket science
Busyman
03-21-2005, 07:10 PM
perhaps you should take an English remedial class because you seem to be having a problem yourself
no, that is a business seizing and exploiting an opportunity....how is that "America"
Well just don't go to that outlet...you are not forced to.... if a company loses customers because they can't understand then the company will fail because of bad business choices....It's not rocket science
Nice shot at me Mr I'm DYsfFuckiNgleXIc. :dry: I didn't dispute your "learning English" statement. YOU read....see my statement in bold.. :dry:
Going to another outlet inconveniences me. What happens when the "other" outlet is the same? (which has happened in Hyattsville, MD)
America is run on capitalism and the oppurtunity furthers those few in that business. Politicians also make up part of America and placate to the same demographic.
Them not having to learn English is placating to them. Since they can get jobs here and have industry change to their liking their is not much incentive to learn English. They may be content to mow hobbes' lawn or do many other jobs at less than minimum wage which, in numerous cases, gives better quality of life than they previously had.
I say change the law and THEN let the chips fall.
bigboab
03-21-2005, 07:20 PM
India has it's own flag.
You mean its still called India! :ohmy: English is the only thing that is holding them together. :rolleyes:
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?.
Then what is the move to make Spanish an "official" language in aid of?
If doing so means (as it most certainly does) that all public notifications and signage will present in both languages, the unavoidable effect will be that many choose one OR the other out of habit/laziness, which are both major components of the human condition.
No race of people on this earth go about habitually doing things that are not required in order to survive.
The goal is a bilingual society/culture, and the effort to bring this about is handicapped, NOT AIDED, by this measure.
This is inarguable.
vidcc
03-21-2005, 11:21 PM
Then what is the move to make Spanish an "official" language in aid of?
If doing so means (as it most certainly does) that all public notifications and signage will present in both languages, the unavoidable effect will be that many choose one OR the other out of habit/laziness, which are both major components of the human condition.
No race of people on this earth go about habitually doing things that are not required in order to survive.
The goal is a bilingual society/culture, and the effort to bring this about is handicapped, NOT AIDED, by this measure.
This is inarguable.
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
Secondly I am not arguing that we should have a second official language at this time in history. As it stands the there wouldn't be anywhere near enough people that speak a different language other than English...but who knows about 50-100 years from now... English may still be the official language but it might be the lesser used.....
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
But let's say suddenly we did get a second official language, do you think that you as an adult would be compelled by law to learn it? do you think that in AMERICA a law would be passed to make you put things in both languages? After all we don't even have laws where the total price of goods is shown inclusive of tax. Do you think it would make any difference at all to your life? Those that want to learn it will those that don't will not...that would be their loss.
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
hobbes
03-22-2005, 01:08 AM
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
Vidcc,
I read this post and I feel you haven't listen to a word I said.
When I talked about my Ukrainian friend, where did I ask him to become us? I said this ability gave him a sense of uniqueness. So I say you have stopped listening and starting arguing.
I have never stated that I felt that 2 languages was an "attack". I said it helps no one, particularly those who don't speak English. I'm going to be fine, but if you live in a town where everything is in Spanish, you are pretty much locked in there.
Why do we add Spanish as official and not Chinese or any other? If we add Spanish, we should add them all. If we don't add them all, why should we add Spanish?
One country, one official language so that everyone can communicate wherever we roam in our own land. They have done it in India, they have done it in China, by creating a single language for all to speak, whilst the locals maintain their regional languages. My Indian co-worker can't understand his wife's regional dialect at all, they met simply because they spoke the common language.
This language thing to me is no threat whatsoever. It actually isolates those who which to live their lives in their native tongue. It promotes isolated communities, like little Havana or the multitude of Chinatowns. To have the government cater to these special interest helps to preserve isolation, not encourage intergration.
You might need to come to San Antonio sometime and meet the thousands of people who don't speak a word of English. They are not striving to learn, not in the least, and I don't think that it a good idea to encourage this behavior. Thankfully their children learn English in schools, but if we allowed schools to teach in Spanish, where would they learn? My view is not myopic, I observe this everyday. People tend to do exactly what they need to do to get by.
I find this whole myopic view thing as petty and argumentative. We have a country, with one currency and we can all communicate with one common language.
I have yet to see how a second official language helps anyone.
hobbes
03-22-2005, 01:15 AM
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
But let's say suddenly we did get a second official language, do you think that you as an adult would be compelled by law to learn it? do you think that in AMERICA a law would be passed to make you put things in both languages? After all we don't even have laws where the total price of goods is shown inclusive of tax. Do you think it would make any difference at all to your life? Those that want to learn it will those that don't will not...that would be their loss.
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
Why should people learn 2 languages when 1 works perfectly well. That is adding pointless complexity.
India has hundreds of dialects, but are able to unite though a single "official" one. This does not mean that people speak the official ones in casual conversation or in their homes, but it does mean that you can travel anywhere you please and still be understood.
This is simply about fostering communication, not about fearing some overthrow of your sacred tongue.
vidcc
03-22-2005, 01:46 AM
Why do we add Spanish as official and not Chinese or any other? If we add Spanish, we should add them all. If we don't add them all, why should we add Spanish?
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
One country, one official language so that everyone can communicate wherever we roam in our own land. They have done it in India, they have done it in China, by creating a single language for all to speak, whilst the locals maintain their regional languages. My Indian co-worker can't understand his wife's regional dialect at all, they met simply because they spoke the common language.
This language thing to me is no threat whatsoever. It actually isolates those who which to live their lives in their native tongue. It promotes isolated communities, like little Havana or the multitude of Chinatowns. To have the government cater to these special interest helps to preserve isolation, not encourage intergration.
You might need to come to San Antonio sometime and meet the thousands of people who don't speak a word of English. They are not striving to learn, not in the least, and I don't think that it a good idea to encourage this behavior. Thankfully their children learn English in schools, but if we allowed schools to teach in Spanish, where would they learn? My view is not myopic, I observe this everyday. People tend to do exactly what they need to do to get by.
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
I find this whole myopic view thing as petty and argumentative. We have a country, with one currency and we can all communicate with one common language.
I have yet to see how a second official language helps anyone.
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language. Look at the world of commerce today..where do you see the growth heading and what do you think the USAs standing will be on the international market in say 50 years. At the moment we are at the top but we are losing our grip as the wolves at the bottom of the hill get stronger.
Your arguements just look at today...I am looking at the future and the younger generation.
hobbes
03-22-2005, 01:56 AM
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language. Look at the world of commerce today..where do you see the growth heading and what do you think the USAs standing will be on the international market in say 50 years. At the moment we are at the top but we are losing our grip as the wolves at the bottom of the hill get stronger.
Your arguements just look at today...I am looking at the future and the younger generation.
There is no point to additional official languages. It encourages the development of and isolation provided within pockets of society that wish only to create a little version of home and are assisted by our own government.
It adds nothing to our country as a whole and encourages separation.
You have failed to show that having one language requires a second. Why should our children learn two languages when 1 is fine? And if they do learn more than 1, which one?
And just because they learn more than 1 language in school, why should that be recognized as official.
It is pointless duplicity.
If I spoke fluent Spanish as well as English, it would not hurt me, but I have better use for my time then learning another language when 1 is sufficient. Maybe I would rather learn a second career than spend my time learning a language for no apparent benefit or reason.
By the way Vidcc, your recommendation that Busyman receive remedial English tells me you are simply arguing not discussing as you were the one asking tolerance for those with dyslexia.
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language.
And here lies the crux of our different perception, vid.
There is no argument, "valid" or otherwise, against learning a second language; there is not, however, any compelling reason for doing so, and neither is there proper entree for the state or federal government to elevate any other language to official or "co-equal" status.
It should be apparent that anyone, if asked, would aver the ability to speak a second language would be of benefit somehow, but to give it state sanction absent a concommitant requirement (which would be oppressive) to learn it is illogical at best.
RPerry
03-22-2005, 02:58 AM
sorry double posed unintentionally
Jeez, I talk her into coming back, and she puts me to work :huh:
vidcc
03-22-2005, 03:06 AM
By the way Vidcc, your recommendation that Busyman receive remedial English tells me you are simply arguing not discussing as you were the one asking tolerance for those with dyslexia.
1. I never asked for tolerance, I just explained something when you picked on my posts for spelling mistakes one day.
2. Lately you may (or may not) have noticed that I respond to busy in the same way he posts....
3.Wtf has that got to do with you?
vidcc
03-22-2005, 03:08 AM
And here lies the crux of our different perception, vid.
There is no argument, "valid" or otherwise, against learning a second language; there is not, however, any compelling reason for doing so, and neither is there proper entree for the state or federal government to elevate any other language to official or "co-equal" status.
It should be apparent that anyone, if asked, would aver the ability to speak a second language would be of benefit somehow, but to give it state sanction absent a concommitant requirement (which would be oppressive) to learn it is illogical at best.
well i think that we have exhausted both sides of that .....it is getting repeatative.... so time to move on
hobbes
03-22-2005, 03:11 AM
1. I never asked for tolerance, i just explained something when you critisied my posts for spelling mistakes one day.
2. Lately you may (or may not) have noticed that i respond to busy in the same way he posts....
3.Wtf has that got to do with you?
My point was that the ideal is to discuss.
When we make comments, as you did, it means that this desire is gone and that we want to argue.
To argue means that we will defend our point beyond logical opposition as it is about being right, not what is right.
Such a position really hurts a discussion forum.
We must all be secure in ourselves to admit when we are wrong, or even to admit that someone else might have a valid point.
We must all be secure in ourselves to admit when we are wrong.
Yes, and one way to minimize that particular need is to practice what I like to refer to as "wrong" avoidance.
It's just easier to be right. :D
Busyman
03-22-2005, 03:48 AM
2. Lately you may (or may not) have noticed that I respond to busy in the same way he posts....
Well you are doing a shit job. I considered myself rather mild (at least to some member's liking) in this thread. You act as if someone is attacking your posts when they aren't. You are disputing points that people agree on. If they say it again it doesn't mean you haven't said it.
Remedial class is on you little buddy.
Keeping trying to respond the way you think I post. You are vidcc and I am Busyman and the posts will reflect such.
Now to the topic...... :dry:
vidcc
03-22-2005, 02:35 PM
Well you are doing a shit job. I considered myself rather mild (at least to some member's liking) in this thread. You act as if someone is attacking your posts when they aren't. You are disputing points that people agree on. If they say it again it doesn't mean you haven't said it.
Remedial class is on you little buddy.
Keeping trying to respond the way you think I post. You are vidcc and I am Busyman and the posts will reflect such.
Now to the topic...... :dry:
Why should i base on one thread...i've been doing it on the others.....
you have a higher view of your posting method than others have ...now stfu. gtfo. buy a vowel.... and remember there are other words that don't start with "F"
clocker
03-22-2005, 03:02 PM
Look at the world of commerce today..where do you see the growth heading and what do you think the USAs standing will be on the international market in say 50 years. At the moment we are at the top but we are losing our grip as the wolves at the bottom of the hill get stronger.
OK, I'll bite.
Where do YOU see the world of commerce heading?
Which wolf is going to become dominant?
My guess would be China.
My brother does a considerable amount of business in China ( makes several trips a year) and ALL his business dealings are in English.
This is not some sort of xenophobic phenomonon, simply a matter of convenience...written Chinese is a nightmare, not really workable for dealing with the rest of the world, so they are adopting English as the language of choice to deal with us round eyes.
Seems to me that most of the pressure around here (Denver) is to accomodate Spanish speaking folk, but, using your logic, that makes no sense as it is highly unlikely that Mexico is going to become an economic superpower anytime soon.
Busyman
03-22-2005, 04:18 PM
Why should i base on one thread...i've been doing it on the others.....
you have a higher view of your posting method than others have ...now stfu. gtfo. buy a vowel.... and remember there are other words that don't start with "F"
Who said anything about higher posting method? You must view it that way seeing that you are on every inch of my nut sac like you are on every inch of my posts.
Who knows your shit rationale behind how you post by trying to copy me (word for word it seems)? You do a shit copy and paste job seeing that you are Drawing Room veteran. Maybe you should stick to doing drawrings little fella.
Go Fuck yourself
Shut the Fuck Up and Get The Fuck Out
FfFfFfFfFfFfFuck you
Aww Fuck
I Fucked up..........fucking damn fucking you, you fucking win I fucking guess your were fucking right.
edit: I'm sorry let me write it so you'll understand it.....
Og Fukc yoursfle
Moving on....again. :dry:
Busyman
03-22-2005, 04:25 PM
OK, I'll bite.
Where do YOU see the world of commerce heading?
Which wolf is going to become dominant?
My guess would be China.
My brother does a considerable amount of business in China ( makes several trips a year) and ALL his business dealings are in English.
This is not some sort of xenophobic phenomonon, simply a matter of convenience...written Chinese is a nightmare, not really workable for dealing with the rest of the world, so they are adopting English as the language of choice to deal with us round eyes.
Seems to me that most of the pressure around here (Denver) is to accomodate Spanish speaking folk, but, using your logic, that makes no sense as it is highly unlikely that Mexico is going to become an economic superpower anytime soon.
Actually I don't know of any big Spanish superpowers in commerce. I'm sure they are there but they don't make news.
As you said... Mexico. No
All of South America. Nope
Spain..No
Central America. No
Some of those areas are stuck in the er..stucko as it is. Some of those folks come here as a refuge..economic and socio-political.
vidcc
03-22-2005, 08:10 PM
OK, I'll bite.
Where do YOU see the world of commerce heading?
Which wolf is going to become dominant?
My guess would be China.
China and indeed Asia in general do seem to be the front runners at present but if you look at outsourcing it's a case of "go where it's cheapest". and Latin American could easily compete given the will power to do it.
Not in our lifetime but there possibly will come a time when we see Asia and Latin American outsourcing jobs to the USA.
You mentioned all trade being done in English...That's probably because AT PRESENT English is the standard. This may have a lot to do with who is the strongest economic influence at the moment and with the changing tides we may see a more dominant nation demanding we deal with them rather than the other way round (if that makes sense).
My point being that as time goes by more nations are developing and the US has greater competition
Spanish was just an example of a possible second language in the US purely based on numbers. Who knows, in 100 years it may be the dominant language.
@ busy
you seem to be frothing at the mouth.
http://images.animationfactory.com/animations/people_m_z/miscellaneous/angry_greg_head_explode/angry_greg_head_explode_lg_wm.gif
Busyman
03-23-2005, 01:43 AM
China and indeed Asia in general do seem to be the front runners at present but if you look at outsourcing it's a case of "go where it's cheapest". and Latin American could easily compete given the will power to do it.
Not in our lifetime but there possibly will come a time when we see Asia and Latin American outsourcing jobs to the USA.
You mentioned all trade being done in English...That's probably because AT PRESENT English is the standard. This may have a lot to do with who is the strongest economic influence at the moment and with the changing tides we may see a more dominant nation demanding we deal with them rather than the other way round (if that makes sense).
My point being that as time goes by more nations are developing and the US has greater competition
Spanish was just an example of a possible second language in the US purely based on numbers. Who knows, in 100 years it may be the dominant language.
@ busy
you seem to be frothing at the mouth.
http://images.animationfactory.com/animations/people_m_z/miscellaneous/angry_greg_head_explode/angry_greg_head_explode_lg_wm.gif
I leave the frothing to you. The way you've been on my nut sac I doubt that's froth around your mouth.
Ya just can't leave it alone can ya? Keep licking and get this expression of your face (among other things). :ohmy:
Regarding the rest of your post, it kinda goes without saying....
We have competition (and have had it for years)
Other nations could rise up and become economic superpowers.
Who knows, Spanish may be dominant but maybe not.
Uhh yeah. :dry:
If one of the biggest industrialized nations (us) placates to Hispanics then it just might become a dominant language.
Why do it in the first place? :huh:
vidcc
03-23-2005, 02:31 AM
I leave the frothing to you. The way you've been on my nut sac I doubt that's froth around your mouth.
Ya just can't leave it alone can ya? Keep licking and get this expression of your face (among other things). :ohmy:
:rolleyes:
Busyman
03-23-2005, 04:29 AM
:rolleyes:
edit:nvm not neccesary anymore
:lol: :lol:
clocker
03-23-2005, 02:45 PM
China and indeed Asia in general do seem to be the front runners at present but if you look at outsourcing it's a case of "go where it's cheapest". and Latin American could easily compete given the will power to do it.
Naturally, "given the willpower" any nation could rise to competitive levels, but cheap labor and willpower alone won't do it.
Creating the necessary infrastructure to support a thriving economy takes decades, especially now that education supercedes raw material/manpower as the critical factor.
India, Japan and (more recently) China have all directed concentrated efforts into their educational systems and the resulting outflow of qualified engineers and scientists almost guarantees their eventual dominance. This, coupled with very large populations (well, not Japan so much) AND access to vast quantities of raw material (especially in the case of China), makes them almost a sure thing.
Given that the power elite of these countries are all learning English as their second language it seems likely that it will remain the dominant language of business at least, for the forseeable future.
But who knows?
Our great grandchildren may all converse in Urdu given the right circumstances.
But prolly not Spanish.
vidcc
03-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Naturally, "given the willpower" any nation could rise to competitive levels, but cheap labor and willpower alone won't do it.
Creating the necessary infrastructure to support a thriving economy takes decades, especially now that education supercedes raw material/manpower as the critical factor.
i think that goes without saying
India, Japan and (more recently) China have all directed concentrated efforts into their educational systems and the resulting outflow of qualified engineers and scientists almost guarantees their eventual dominance. This, coupled with very large populations (well, not Japan so much) AND access to vast quantities of raw material (especially in the case of China), makes them almost a sure thing.
Given that the power elite of these countries are all learning English as their second language it seems likely that it will remain the dominant language of business at least, for the forseeable future.
But who knows?
Our great grandchildren may all converse in Urdu given the right circumstances.
But prolly not Spanish.
again spanish was just an example
vidcc
03-23-2005, 06:14 PM
edit
i can't be bothered
Busyman
03-23-2005, 11:59 PM
Naturally, "given the willpower" any nation could rise to competitive levels, but cheap labor and willpower alone won't do it.
Creating the necessary infrastructure to support a thriving economy takes decades, especially now that education supercedes raw material/manpower as the critical factor.
India, Japan and (more recently) China have all directed concentrated efforts into their educational systems and the resulting outflow of qualified engineers and scientists almost guarantees their eventual dominance. This, coupled with very large populations (well, not Japan so much) AND access to vast quantities of raw material (especially in the case of China), makes them almost a sure thing.
Given that the power elite of these countries are all learning English as their second language it seems likely that it will remain the dominant language of business at least, for the forseeable future.
But who knows?
Our great grandchildren may all converse in Urdu given the right circumstances.
But prolly not Spanish.
Good points.
China didn't have in influx of English speakers in their country. They injected English into their education due to English dominance in the global marketplace.
Our country, in contrast, seems to be watering itself down by creating a complexity that previously did not exist. The fact that the up and coming superpowers are learning our language is a good indication that we should not sit another language side-by-side with ours in any way....especially Spanish.
Even though China is learning English, you would think that we should learn Chinese but again, they are placating to us so there's no need for vice-versa.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 12:42 AM
Even though China is learning English, you would think that we should learn Chinese but again, they are placating to us so there's no need for vice-versa.
Don't you think that they are rising because in part (notice IN PART) because they have the sense to have a second language?
They see a need and answer that need...whereas here the opinion seems to be "why bother?"...... an attitude that could bite us on the ass in the future.
Don't you think that they are rising because in part (notice IN PART) because they have the sense to have a second language?
They see a need and answer that need...whereas here the opinion seems to be "why bother?"...... an attitude that could bite us on the ass in the future.
As to your first:
Parse the reasoning for their move, vid; also, I am not aware they have given English any official standing, I think they are merely cognizant of the habit of the world marketplace, which follows the U.S.'s lead.
Not France's, not Germany's, not Japan's....ours.
Get over your guilt at being numero uno.:lol:
As to your last:
It would seem clear that the trend toward "official" culture-tweaking is currently biting us on the ass; never mind "someday".
vidcc
03-24-2005, 01:03 AM
It would seem clear that the trend toward "official" culture-tweaking is currently biting us on the ass; never mind "someday".
Clear..how so?.
what do you see biting us on the ass?
forget immigration...
I see our constitution being abused and ignored and although it may be something you like i am not too keen on our government heading towards an almost theocracy.
clocker
03-24-2005, 01:13 AM
Don't you think that they are rising because in part (notice IN PART) because they have the sense to have a second language?
They see a need and answer that need...whereas here the opinion seems to be "why bother?"...... an attitude that could bite us on the ass in the future.
No, I don't.
Actually, I think it's totally due to the fact that English is the dominant language of both commerce and science and Chinese is too awkward and unwieldy to supplant it.
I would be supportive of pushing a second language if I thought most Americans had a marginal grasp of English first.
Sadly, this is not the case.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 01:32 AM
Don't you think that they are rising because in part (notice IN PART) because they have the sense to have a second language?
They see a need and answer that need...whereas here the opinion seems to be "why bother?"...... an attitude that could bite us on the ass in the future.
Clocker already addressed your first point rather easily.
To your second..
I do say why bother.
We already have educational institutions to teach foreign language.
English seems to be at the top of the heap so to speak.
If we are to look to the future, what language is the future?
Clear..how so?.
what do you see biting us on the ass?
forget immigration...
I see our constitution being abused and ignored and although it may be something you like i am not too keen on our government heading towards an almost theocracy.
Immigration cannot be ignored, vid; it is part and parcel of my point.
If the misguided idea of accomodating the Spanish language had never taken root to begin with, nor fertilized so richly by our government, we would not be suffering the torrent of illegals across the border.
It is really just that simple.
We have historically opened our borders to immigrants who desired to come here to live in the country we have built over these 200-plus years.
The impetus for the emigre was what he could do for himself, freely and without sacrificing personal dignity.
For centuries, this has been enough, and it should still be so; we have never needed to entice immigrants by offering an ever-widening palette of appetizers, you see?
The entree is meant to be self-service.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 01:45 AM
If the misguided idea of accomodating the Spanish language had never taken root to begin with, nor fertilized so richly by our government, we would not be suffering the torrent of illegals across the border.
It is really just that simple.
Let me see if i've got this right.
you are saying that we have a flood of illegal immigrants becuase of the language? :blink:
I would say it has more to do with the fact that they can earn more money here even when being paid under minimum wage....... and much of that money leaves our economy as it is "sent beck home". If illegal immigrants couldn't earn more here than at home i doubt we would have many crossing even if our native language was the same.
Let me see if i've got this right.
you are saying that we have a flood of illegal immigrants becuase of the language? :blink:
I would say it has more to do with the fact that they can earn more money here even when being paid under minimum wage....... and much of that money leaves our economy as it is "sent beck home". If illegal immigrants couldn't earn more here than at home i doubt we would have many crossing even if our native language was the same.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
If you owned a movie theatre and left the emergency exits open, your theatre would constantly be full, but there would be very little traffic past the ticket-taker, and you would go broke.
Is that better?
vidcc
03-24-2005, 02:20 AM
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
If you owned a movie theatre and left the emergency exits open, your theatre would constantly be full, but there would be very little traffic past the ticket-taker, and you would go broke.
Is that better?
No that's worse..to me that says the problem is insecure borders... which is just something that makes it easier for illegal "economic immigrants" to enter...it still says nothing about how the language encourages it.
you can have open boarders, you will only get immigration if the immigrants can benefit.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 02:23 AM
I'll put plainly...(I've said it before)
The rise in the Hispanic population is due illegal immigrants.(I know that many become "legal")
The only advantage in us learning Spanish (besides self-enrichment) is to communicate with Mexican immigrants that America seems to be allowing far too many of.
What sense does that make?
Once they get here there isn't an ounce of pressure for them to learn our language. Instead we make concessions for them.
Stupidity.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 02:27 AM
No that's worse..to me that says the problem is insecure borders... which is just something that makes it easier for illegal "economic immigrants" to enter...it still says nothing about how the language encourages it.
you can have open boarders, you will only get immigration if the immigrants can benefit.
They not only benefit economically but they benefit culturally. I agree with your first point.
Them not having to learn English is placating to them. Since they can get jobs here and have industry change to their liking their is not much incentive to learn English. They may be content to mow hobbes' lawn or do many other jobs at less than minimum wage which, in numerous cases, gives better quality of life than they previously had.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 02:28 AM
Busy get off the spanish language. IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
on the second post about them not having to learn English i will say again that schools will teach both so in a generation nearly the whole country would speak BOTH...not one or the other. there would not be spanish only school or english only schools
Busyman
03-24-2005, 02:38 AM
Busy get off the spanish language. IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
on the second post about them not having to learn English i will say again that schools will teach both so in a generation nearly the whole country would speak BOTH...not one or the other. there would not be spanish only school or english only schools
Why should I get off the Spanish language if it is just an example.
Seems like a damn good one since IT ACTUALLY APPLIES HERE.
Schools teach what the student elects to learn. For example I took 3 years of French in high school because that's what I picked. Some learned Spanish, some German.
You haven't given a reason why we should go dual language. Saying that we may get left behind is a crap reason. There are countries that have dual official languages and neither are widely used in the global marketplace.
clocker
03-24-2005, 02:42 AM
Busy get off the spanish language. IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE
on the second post about them not having to learn English i will say again that schools will teach both so in a generation nearly the whole country would speak BOTH...not one or the other. there would not be spanish only school or english only schools
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 02:47 AM
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
Good point.
I liked French aiiight and everything but I loved Calculus in comparison. Going far French might have got me a good job as a translator.
However if was good at both, I could have been a French mathmetician...uh sort of.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 03:52 AM
And this a benefit how?
Being multilingual is a luxury we can indulge when our students can compete in science, math and other technical areas.
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 03:58 AM
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
Seems like we have multilinguals without having a second official language though don't we? :huh:
I too was in gifted programs since elementary school yet played sports, made music blahblahblah. Even when I was in a Science and Technology high school we had to take more years of foreign language than "the rest".
You still have not put forth a rationale behind a second official language here.
I get the point that being multilingual begets a more well rounded individual.
I have layed out a focus of study that involves science, mathematics, language and music because that's what made me more well rounded.
However, a second official language doesn't really accomplish this. First there is the question..What language?
It's almost like me having to learn to play official musical instrument. I learned 4 because of what I was interested in. What if I was forced to learn the sitar?
I would be popular in...India. :blink:
vidcc
03-24-2005, 04:11 AM
You still have not put forth a rationale behind a second official language here.
Because you don't agree with it...that doesn't mean I haven't.
You still haven't put forward a reason why it would be a hindrance. All you've said is people won't learn something unless they have to.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 04:13 AM
Because you don't agree with it...that doesn't mean I haven't.
You still haven't put forward a reason why it would be a hindrance. All you've said is people won't learn something unless they have to.
Show me where I've said that. :huh:
And no you haven't.
What language and why? (since Spanish was just an example)
clocker
03-24-2005, 05:23 AM
How is it a hindrance?
As to education standards should we reduce ourselves to the lowest denominator? Our education system could be improved that goes without saying. My 17 year old is in the gifted program and he still finds he has time to fill during the day. Surely the idea would be to make school more challenging to pupils not easier.
As far as the industrial nations go Vid, the US already is the lowest common demoninator.
Having failed to adequately keep pace in the Three R's, you propose that we can afford to become more well rounded by adding language requirements?
Don't get me wrong, I took six years of Latin (Gaulia est divisa in tres partes...or something like that) and it was a tremendous benefit to my appreciation of and (somewhat debatable) grasp of English, but I was a product of an earlier system which also demanded mastery of more pedestrian (read:useful) skills.
That system is long gone, replaced ( for various reasons- I know J2 has some definite thoughts about that) by a carebear, feel-good, pamper 'em and pass 'em joke.
After that is fixed, by all means bring on the language requirements.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 05:29 AM
As far as the industrial nations go Vid, the US already is the lowest common demoninator.
I disagree.
We fail up through high-school but easily surpass in college (even the Japanese).
That's why everyone (including Middle Easterns) wants to send their kids to college here.
clocker
03-24-2005, 11:51 AM
How is that possible?
The elite Indian students consider US colleges as fallback options and I suspect that Middle East parents like their kids to come here to sow their wild oats without fear of retribution from Islamic law.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 01:39 PM
How is that possible?
The elite Indian students consider US colleges as fallback options and I suspect that Middle East parents like their kids to come here to sow their wild oats without fear of retribution from Islamic law.
This is something I've looked upon for years.
I'm not sure about Indian students but Middle Eastern parents that hate us even want to send their kids here.
I remember when asked on 60 minutes why they would send their kids here when there is such disdain for America, the answer was, "Why should I not give my children the best education possible.
In the Japanese situation, what happens is those children that go to school ALL THE TIME are turned loose. They get drunk and have stress blow-outs.
Their studies hit the stinker in comparison to us.
Mind you I did not know of the soiling of oats thingie with Middle Eastern kids.
Up to college is where we suck the fat one.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 03:57 PM
Kids from the world over do indeed come to the States for their education, however they also go to the European universities. There are finite places and if one wished certain specific courses the places are even more limited. I realise it's all part of the "I live in the USA the greatest nation on earth" doctrine but I don't think that one could say the US has the best as that would be subjective, they are good certainly.
@ clocker
We all know that Education needs a good overhaul, however as one that has children using the system I would like to suggest that failings are not all the schools fault and it isn't always because the children are "dumb". IMO a good deal of progress could be made without changing a thing in the curriculum if only parents instilled disipline in their children.
Perhaps part of the reason I take a low view of the "why bother I won't need it" attitude is because I see kids failing school because of it. This is not helped if the parents have the same attitude.
My 17 year old is doing well at school, I wish the school would push him harder, but that's another side to what I am saying..... He is however a teenager and has that teenage mentality where he looks for the easiest route and if we didn't keep on his case I have no doubt he would fall behind at school
So we have undisciplined and lazy children as a big part of the problem and for that we have only ourselves to blame.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 04:11 PM
Kids from the world over do indeed come to the States for their education, however they also go to the European universities. There are finite places and if one wished certain specific courses the places are even more limited. I realise it's all part of the "I live in the USA the greatest nation on earth" doctrine but I don't think that one could say the US has the best as that would be subjective, they are good certainly.
@ clocker
We all know that Education needs a good overhaul, however as one that has children using the system I would like to suggest that failings are not all the schools fault and it isn't always because the children are "dumb". IMO a good deal of progress could be made without changing a thing in the curriculum if only parents instilled disipline in their children.
Perhaps part of the reason I take a low view of the "why bother I won't need it" attitude is because I see kids failing school because of it. This is not helped if the parents have the same attitude.
My 17 year old is doing well at school, I wish the school would push him harder, but that's another side to what I am saying..... He is however a teenager and has that teenage mentality where he looks for the easiest route and if we didn't keep on his case I have no doubt he would fall behind at school
So we have undisciplined and lazy children as a big part of the problem and for that we have only ourselves to blame.
Good post, however, you think that a second official language is one of the answers.
Again what language and why?
We have many other avenues such as installing more years of language study for graduation yet honing in one other language seems to be your answer. :huh:
vidcc
03-24-2005, 05:10 PM
Good post, however, you think that a second official language is one of the answers.
Again what language and why?
We have many other avenues such as installing more years of language study for graduation yet honing in one other language seems to be your answer. :huh:
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
Secondly I am not arguing that we should have a second official language at this time in history. As it stands the there wouldn't be anywhere near enough people that speak a different language other than English...but who knows about 50-100 years from now... English may still be the official language but it might be the lesser used.....
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
To me the idea of a nation being bilingual is that it's people speak both....
bilingual
1.
1. Using or able to use two languages, especially with equal or nearly equal fluency.
2. Using two languages in some proportion in order to facilitate learning by students who have a native proficiency in one language and are acquiring proficiency in the other: bilingual training; bilingual education.
2. Of, relating to, or expressed in two languages: a bilingual dictionary.
This being the lazy And arrogant USA I would say that IF it ever happened it would be more likely to be Spanish because of the population proportions. This may not be ideal as a competitive edge on the world market in the future but then that would be because of our own self indulgent attitude.
Again what language and why?
one would need to guess where the most beneficial nation to the US workforce would be and to do that we need to look at the future not the present. If i had the indisputable answer i could give it.
Again i repeat i am not saying we should have a second official language i am saying it could be used to our advantage and it would not be a hinderance.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 05:32 PM
Again i repeat i am not saying we should have a second official language i am saying it could be used to our advantage and it would not be a hinderance.
Mmmk. :huh:
What could be used to our advantage?
Having an official second language or simply studying another language?
Simply having more knowledge is good goes without saying.
I can change the brakes on my car. That's good.
Me knowing French is pretty good too....I guess, although I almost never use it. :huh: Is it advantagous? No.
A hindrance?
In the scheme of things, maybe so since I could have learned Spanish instead to communicate better with economic refugees. :dry:
vidcc
03-24-2005, 06:03 PM
Mmmk. :huh:
What could be used to our advantage?
Having an official second language or simply studying another language?
Both.
you mentioned learning French..... do you remember much? I bet if you could continue to use it regularly it would be as easy as English to you. I did Latin French and German at school, I made use of the last two to a degree but lack of use is very similar to the effect sitting on ones butt all day has on ones muscles. Having an official second language would enhance the study through use. You yourself said we only use what we have to.
Me knowing French is pretty good too....I guess, although I almost never use it. :huh: Is it advantagous? No.
So you chose a course in life that doesn't use it, but lets say your company has a position in France, a position that you would like and would mean a great step up....you must agree that your particular company could possibly have something like that.... Do you think that given equal technical skills your work colleague that doesn't have a word of French would be more or less likely to get the job?
A hindrance?
In the scheme of things, maybe so since I could have learned Spanish instead to communicate better with economic refugees. :dry:
This makes your objections look like pure resentment which is an excuse along the lines of cutting your nose to spite your face....
Busyman
03-24-2005, 06:24 PM
You yourself said we only use what we have to.
Again...show where I've said that. :huh:
Regarding the job market, you are stating something so painfully obvious that it goes without saying (even though I have already said it).
I don't have an issue with Hispanics. I have an issue with my country kissing illegal's ass while room for elbows is fast disappearing here.
Language doesn't need to be propped up as in Spanish's case. English sure wasn't. It just so happens that the people that made inroads in science, mathematics, and ultimately the marketplace spoke English.
The other chips fell in line.
Your blanket statement that a second official language is a benefit is too broad to even have a point.
When asked what language and why? There is no answer.
It looks good on paper but application is a motherfuker.
vidcc
03-24-2005, 07:12 PM
Again...show where I've said that. :huh:
Very good point. By having another official language (Spanish) you essentially say to the folks that only speak Spanish that there is no need to learn English.
Same here. If they don't have to learn it well......
You've also been asking why you need to learn another language when all the other nations are learning english.
Your blanket statement that a second official language is a benefit is too broad to even have a point.
When asked what language and why? There is no answer.
The why has been answered, you just don't want to accept it...the which language depends on a whole range of things and would be different for each nation. One has to maximise one abilities not reduce them.
English is used by many nations to deal with english speaking nations, but it's not the only language used. The more langauges one has the wider the field of communication.
Busyman
03-24-2005, 07:49 PM
You've also been asking why you need to learn another language when all the other nations are learning english.
The why has been answered, you just don't want to accept it...the which language depends on a whole range of things and would be different for each nation. One has to maximise one abilities not reduce them.
English is used by many nations to deal with english speaking nations, but it's not the only language used. The more langauges one has the wider the field of communication.
Damn dude. Your quotes of me are clearly regarding SPANISH SPEAKING IMMIGRANTS FFS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: (notice the use of "they" and "to the folks that only speak Spanish" not the word "we")
As to the why....
What you've put forth is a rationale behind simply learning other languages. That's a no-brainer.
Focusing on a specific language has not been adressed.
I like the approach of focusing on whatever language the individual sees fit like when I was in school.
hobbes
03-24-2005, 08:06 PM
So we should make Chinese a second official language because it might help those in the business world get an advantage because they will be using Chinese on a daily basis?
That really seems like a flimsy logic for creating a second language. What if China fizzles and we should have been learning German.
Money will provide the incentive to speak whatever language the market demands. We don't have to sit around and anticipate who will be the "hot commodity" in the future.
Necessity is the mother of invention. Maybe we should make sign language our official second language just in case we all go deaf, just in case.
There is a great difference to me between, "it is a good thing to know more than one language" and the official selection of a language by the government so that people might have an edge in the international market.
Why doesn't the government train us all to make radios out of coconuts just in case we are shipwrecked. How could this possibly hurt us?
It probably wouldn't, unless you consider time and money, but it is also pointless and not the role of the government.
As I pointed out before, heterogeneous populations like India and China have followed our one language lead by creating a common language for the country so that the people can travel from place to place and communicate. Maybe in your mind you think that everyone should learn ALL the local dialects instead of the local dialects learning a common tongue? What would it hurt. It is not that something would hurt, but it would be highly inefficient and largely pointless.
It is akin to the world adopting Esperanto or some "official global language". I would have no problem adding that to our schools because it would be a powerful tool used the world over. Like a skeleton key to the globe.
That would make sense and everyone who has ever traveled would have a large incentive to at least be functional in it. There are so many languages out there, it is mere speculation which ones we might need or use. No need to pointless train us all in some selected language when it will probably be a complete waste of time and effort. Let individuals develop their individual language skills as far as their intellectual and monetary interests take them.
One country, one language-valuable
One world, one language- priceless
China has a bunch of Languages, like Cantonese, and Mandarin, it's just the writing that's universal there. :huh:
But I think Cantonese (or is it Mandarin) is still the biggest language in the world.
I'm not sure India has just the one language either, I know there are smaller groups with their own language, and the social gaps are huge, so certain groups who officially speak the same language can probably hardly communicate.
But one world-one language sure sounds good to me.
bigboab
03-24-2005, 10:03 PM
But one world-one language sure sounds good to me.
I just hope they dont make it English. I am too old to learn another language. :blink:
vidcc
03-24-2005, 10:54 PM
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
bigboab
03-24-2005, 11:03 PM
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
Whae disnae talk the same English? Whit ur ye talkin' aboot? :blink:
RPerry
03-24-2005, 11:11 PM
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
Guess we could all use sign language instead :rolleyes:
Adster
03-25-2005, 12:09 AM
heya bussyman how you going?
hobbes
03-25-2005, 12:09 AM
I have stated my case and haven't read anything new. Apart from it being nice if we all spoke just one language, but then we don't even speak the same English.
So for those of us who missed it, why exactly should the government be involved in promoting an official second language? Why is one language not sufficient from a societal communication stand point?
Which language and for what reason?
I would promote learning sign language over any spoken tongue as it would allow ALL Americans to move freely in our land and to be able to fully communicate.
Your mantra of "what would it hurt?" is not the point at all. Learning to build a radio out of a coconut wouldn't hurt anyone either.
Vidcc, I must say know you are wrong and are just arguing a rather shaky logic.
When Clocker and Hobbes agree, that's no big deal. But when Clocker, Hobbes, J2, Busyman and the rest of the board are in lock step, then this is the sign of the apocolypse.
I haven't seen a single poster support your views.
Although you want to call us arrogant, myopic people afraid of an attack on our language, that is complete hogwash.
vidcc
03-25-2005, 12:10 AM
Guess we could all use sign language instead :rolleyes:
Eddie Izzard had a great sign for humans in the sketch about the signing experiments with monkeys in the 70s.
I'm sure Everose (forgive me if i am wrong) said that there is more than one sign language.
vidcc
03-25-2005, 12:19 AM
So for those of us who missed it, why exactly should the government be involved in promoting an official second language? Why is one language not sufficient from a societal communication stand point?
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
Busyman
03-25-2005, 12:25 AM
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
It's cool man.
It could be beneficial if we had 2 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 3 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 4 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 5 languages.
Totally agree.
It could be beneficial if we drove on left side of the road.
It could be beneficial if we drill more in Alaska
It could be bene..........
hobbes
03-25-2005, 12:29 AM
I repeat.
I have not been saying we SHOULD have two langauges...I have been saying that it could be beneficial. I have been saying that it wouldn't hinder us.
Don't give me any crap about the weight of opinion when it is just opinion. It doesn't give any weight to your view at all because we are talking opinion not facts. At one point in time everyone was of the opinion that Saddam had WMD were they right? before that there was the opinion that the world was flat.
Yeah and so could be learning to build a radio from a coconut, but that is not the role of our government.
vidcc
03-25-2005, 12:35 AM
It's cool man.
It could be beneficial if we had 2 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 3 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 4 languages.
It could be beneficial if we had 5 languages.
Totally agree.
It could be beneficial if we drove on left side of the road.
It could be beneficial if we drill more in Alaska
It could be bene..........
So what's your point?
i started my point because of this
Actually the state of New Mexico is doing it's citizen no favors with the dual official languages. It should be pushing them to learn English because here in San Antonio, not speaking English locks you into being that guy that cuts my grass and takes out my trash. It locks you in to the lowest socio-economic class.
The state is encouraging biligualism, it is encouraging spanish speaking immigrants to learn English and it is teaching the children of spanish speaking immigrants to speak english. It is also teaching where possible english students to learn spanish. It is encouraging BOTH.
Only official forms are in both languages. Everything else is in English.
Busyman
03-25-2005, 12:49 AM
So what's your point?
i started my point because of this
The state is encouraging biligualism, it is encouraging spanish speaking immigrants to learn English and it is teaching the children of spanish speaking immigrants to speak english. It is also teaching where possible english students to learn spanish. It is encouraging BOTH.
Only official forms are in both languages. Everything else is in English.
My point is that it could be beneficial. That's all.
It seems when I said that learning Spanish is beneficial because it helps me communicate with economic refugees you said it was resentful.
I wonder why San Antonio is encouraging bilingualism?
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