Do you own a gun?

[GepperRankins]

I do think that the US couldn't decide to adopt our laws. They have too many weapons to dispose of so the logistics and cost would be absolutely horrendous. They also have such long borders that trying to keep them out would be futile - we're a small island and quite lucky in that respect. The best that could happen is that their existing gun laws get tightened up so that idiots can't get them.

Busty posted just that a moment ago so yeah, I agree.


We're better tho :snooty:
australia managed and they're all crooks. :regrettingthispostalready:

[manker]

australia managed and they're all crooks. :regrettingthispostalready:There's only about 20 million or so Aussies.

Plus Australia didn't really manage it 'cos they never had the right to bear arms like the US has and even with the buy-back scheme, it only encompassed automatic and semi-automatic/pump action weapons - and there were exemptions to that.

Source (http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp) :blink:

[GepperRankins]

yeah i know, but it worked

[MCHeshPants420]

australia managed and they're all crooks. :regrettingthispostalready:

That's 'cos they are descended from uber-cockneys.

[Peerzy]

I never heard of a kid buying a gun at a WalMart. Ammo maybe but not a gun.


In your next post you say that you watched Bowling for Collumbin, thats what the kid did. I also saw it a few weeks ago on tv about how because of the film alot of schools have extra secruity but it happened again, kid walked in with a shotgun i believe this time and killed a teacher and a few kids.

Nothing like that has ever happened in England, as far as i know. In the sense of kids killing. The last big thing that happened was not last christmas but the chistmas bfore there was a drive by shooting where 1 girl (17 years old) was injured and 1 was killed (16 years old), the men were found and jailed i believe. 2 and a bit years on that has been our worse child related killing.


Canada still has 6 million guns in households or something but they hardly have a shootout or anything. You americans cannot blame the rest of the world for once, its you who gets buttfucked.

[DanB]

:lol: what a thread

[ziggyjuarez]

DanB with pop a cap in yo ass

[DanB]

DanB with pop a cap in yo ass

Yeah mofo :angry:

[Busyman]

In your next post you say that you watched Bowling for Collumbin, thats what the kid did. I also saw it a few weeks ago on tv about how because of the film alot of schools have extra secruity but it happened again, kid walked in with a shotgun i believe this time and killed a teacher and a few kids.

Nothing like that has ever happened in England, as far as i know. In the sense of kids killing. The last big thing that happened was not last christmas but the chistmas bfore there was a drive by shooting where 1 girl (17 years old) was injured and 1 was killed (16 years old), the men were found and jailed i believe. 2 and a bit years on that has been our worse child related killing.


Canada still has 6 million guns in households or something but they hardly have a shootout or anything. You americans cannot blame the rest of the world for once, its you who gets buttfucked.
You know what man? You typify pussy ass anti-Americanism at it's finest. Who the fuck said we were blaming anyone especially people like your bitch ass?

The part I saw of BFC I thought it said he bought the ammo from Kmart and they went to Kmart headquarters to bitch about it and Kmart changed their AMMO policy in 90 days (not selling it). Mind you I missed some of it so maybe this was another part of BFC.

Your whole bullshit post was a segway for you to say "buttfucked" in which case it was so out of place in regards to America that it could only be code for your gay ass boyfriend to gee-you-some. :pinch:

[Peerzy]

You know what man? You typify pussy ass anti-Americanism at it's finest. Who the fuck said we were blaming anyone especially people like your bitch ass?

The part I saw of BFC I thought it said he bought the ammo from Kmart and they went to Kmart headquarters to bitch about it and Kmart changed their AMMO policy in 90 days (not selling it). Mind you I missed some of it so maybe this was another part of BFC.

Your whole bullshit post was a segway for you to say "buttfucked" in which case it was so out of place in regards to America that it could only be code for your gay ass boyfriend to gee-you-some. :pinch:

So who's fault is it that you have the highest shooting rate in the world?

Look you have your view and ihave mine, your not gonna change yours and im not gonna change mine, we agree to disagree before this becomes a flamewar.

[Busyman]

So who's fault is it that you have the highest shooting rate in the world?

Look you have your view and ihave mine, your not gonna change yours and im not gonna change mine, we agree to disagree before this becomes a flamewar.
It already is bitch...with your dumbass buttfuck comment.

It's our own fault since it's our gun laws dipshit and I said nothing to the contrary.

Your views are shit since they aren't congruent with anything intelligent.

[RPerry]

So who's fault is it that you have the highest shooting rate in the world?

I haven't seen anyone except those against guns try and blame anyone :unsure: Maybe we should look into immigration, since we do have the highest rate of immigrants as well? If people want to blame othes, I'm sure they could find a way, they always do. I for one don't believe in this so called perfect world. Some of you need to realize sometimes bad comes with the good....

[Peerzy]

It already is bitch...with your dumbass buttfuck comment.

It's our own fault since it's our gun laws dipshit and I said anything to the contrary.

Your views are shit since they aren't congruent with anything intelligent.


My views are 'shit' to you. Your views are shit to me.

So its americas fault that it has the highest shooting rate of any country. So what should america do about americas problem?

[Busyman]

My views are 'shit' to you. Your views are shit to me.

So its americas fault that it has the highest shooting rate of any country. So what should america do about americas problem?
Fuck are you asking my views then?

Read motherfucker and then you might see what's been suggested. :ermm:

[DanB]

So what should america do about americas problem?

Get a bigger gun than the next person :01:

[Peerzy]

Fuck are you asking my views then?

Read motherfucker and then you might see what's been suggested. :ermm:


Where did i ask for busymans views? Never, you decided to comment on my views.

[Busyman]

Where did i ask for busymans views? Never, you decided to comment on my views.

So what should america do about americas problem?
Sounds like a STFU is in order. :dry:

[GepperRankins]

that was an open question, not just to you.

[Busyman]

that was an open question, not just to you.
While anyone could answer being it is a forum, I was being addressed.

That much is obvious. :dry:

[GepperRankins]

tell me when you're at school or at a business meeting, what ever you say you do. when the boss asks a question, do you put your hand up to announce you have nothing relevelent to say?

[Busyman]

tell me when you're at school or at a business meeting, what ever you say you do. when the boss asks a question, do you put your hand up to announce you have nothing relevelent to say?
Teh fuck? :blink:

[GepperRankins]

Teh fuck? :blink:
why do it on a forum then?

[Busyman]

why do it on a forum then?
WTH are you talking about? :huh:

[Biggles]

I am rather taken with relevelent :)

Presumably everyone is agreed that in an ideal world no one would want to spend money on something as useless as a hand gun. I, certainly, would think ill of things if law and order broke down to the extent that I had to spend my hard earned cash on buying weapons to defend myself.

What slightly baffles me is that this ideal has somehow been given a bad name in the US. (although I may be misreading things somewhat as I appreciate the NRA does not speak for everyone) Would a demise in the need to own a gun really be seen as a bad thing?

[Busyman]

I am rather taken with relevelent :)

Presumably everyone is agreed that in an ideal world no one would want to spend money on something as useless as a hand gun. I, certainly, would think ill of things if law and order broke down to the extent that I had to spend my hard earned cash on buying weapons to defend myself.

What slightly baffles me is that this ideal has somehow been given a bad name in the US. (although I may be misreading things somewhat as I appreciate the NRA does not speak for everyone) Would a demise in the need to own a gun really be seen as a bad thing?
No.
Even in our constitution this need is born out of something as old as the Revolutionary War.
Now the average joe would get their ass kicked if the "people" decided the government was unjust.

[manker]

Isn't that view a bit ... antiquated, Busy.

I mean, rather than shooting Bush out of the Whitehouse, you could always vote him out :ermm:

[Busyman]

Isn't that view a bit ... antiquated, Busy.

I mean, rather than shooting Bush out of the Whitehouse, you could always vote him out :ermm:
...and that's why I said no.

old = antiquated.....somewhat. :unsure:

[manker]

...and that's why I said no.

old = antiquated.....somewhat. :unsure:

I just edited out around 200 words because I misunderstood your original answer to Biggles.

I thought you said it would be a bad thing :frusty:

It's late.

[Busyman]

I just edited out around 200 words because I misunderstood your original answer to Biggles.

I thought you said it would be a bad thing :frusty:

It's late.
I was just about to reply and then your post changed. I was like WTF!! :huh:

Either way your reading comprehension is better than most (Peezy) so I'm SingTFU. :(

[Peerzy]

I was just about to reply and then your post changed. I was like WTF!! :huh:

Either way your reading comprehension is better than most (Peezy) so I'm SingTFU. :(


Just because im more against your views and choose not to write out a 500 word essay on why makes me less dumber does it :huh: On the record im alot better at spelling, typing and readying than 90% of the american population under the age of 20. They all speak/type like this:


OMG WTF LOL, TAHT WAZ WWEL FUN HA HA LOL OMG U KIKD HIM IN DA HED WEL 'ARD LMFAO

:D


Also i think you have reading issues because after over a year on this forum you have not noticed my name is Peerzy not Peezy :)

[Busyman]

Just because im more against your views and choose not to write out a 500 word essay on why makes me less dumber does it :huh: On the record im alot better at spelling, typing and readying than 90% of the american population under the age of 20. They all speak/type like this:



:D


Also i think you have reading issues because after over a year on this forum you have not noticed my name is Peerzy not Peezy :)
Oh I noticed......

[GepperRankins]

Also i think you have reading issues because after over a year on this forum you have not noticed my name is Peerzy not Peezy

Oh I noticed......

it's a hilarious play on words you see, peerzy. unfortunately billy dean is the only one who thinks it's funny :(

[sparsely]

No.
Even in our constitution this need is born out of something as old as the Revolutionary War.
Now the average joe would get their ass kicked if the "people" decided the government was unjust.

if you honestly think that if there were some sort of revolution, that those revolutionaries would attempt to fight the US military with conventional tactics, you must be as out of your mind as they would have to be. ;)

[Busyman]

if you honestly think that if there were some sort of revolution, that those revolutionaries would attempt to fight the US military with conventional tactics, you must be as out of your mind as they would have to be. ;)
Wtf?

You feel differently about owning a gun so you make posts about something we agree on...sound different?

Read the last line of what you quoted ya crackhead....and STFU.

It's amazing that wanker is the only one not looking for combat at every turn.

[MCHeshPants420]

It's amazing that wanker is the only one not looking for combat at every turn.

You're the one who calls people names like "peezy" and "wanker". It's cool when Sawyer gives people nicknames on Lost but here it makes you sound like Billy Dean.




What did people think of Biggles comment:


Presumably everyone is agreed that in an ideal world no one would want to spend money on something as useless as a hand gun.

To me that makes the most sense out of what anyone has written. Things aren't that way sadly in some places but it seems that some people don't even want to try and move in that direction.

[Busyman]

You're the one who calls people names like "peezy" and "wanker". It's cool when Sawyer gives people nicknames on Lost but here it makes you sound like Billy Dean.




What did people think of Biggles comment:


To me that makes the most sense out of what anyone has written. Things aren't that way sadly in some places but it seems that some people don't even want to try and move in that direction.
Yet I get.....

you must be as out of your mind as they would have to be.
.....from Arsely. :dry:

I don't give 2 shits if HillBillieJean thinks it's funny. No one is begging for your laughter. (I don't get bent out of shape with the Busty shit)
Further from that, you are like the ref that sees the retaliation but not the initial hit...or maybe you see it and ignore it. Either way I can't be Arselied.

As far as that particular Biggles comment you quoted...it kinda goes without saying and was not very profound. It's been heard before.

"I wish I lived in a world where guns weren't needed"

Uh yeah. :ermm: Automatic profundity is not attached to veterans, drop-in posters, or old people..at least not in my book.

I use guns for sport to an extent but I'd gladly give that up. I shot someone before and wish I didn't have to do it. If I hadn't I might not be here now.

[GepperRankins]

Busyman, you're a dick and nobody likes you

[Busyman]

Busyman, you're a dick and nobody likes you
Damn...I'll be really thinking about that when I'm going through my normal day. :dry:

[RPerry]

ok, ok. Agree to disagree, but the name calling needs to stop. I know you all are intelligent enough to know that isn't going to make the other person ever agree with your view, it just pushes them further away.

[MCHeshPants420]

ok, ok. Agree to disagree, but the name calling needs to stop. I know you all are intelligent enough to know that isn't going to make the other person ever agree with your view, it just pushes them further away.

Your Gep name would be RGeppy if you were that way inclined. :P

[RPerry]

Your Gep name would be RGeppy if you were that way inclined. :P

no thanks..... Tghe only name I need is the one my parents gave me :P

[Busyman]

ok, ok. Agree to disagree, but the name calling needs to stop. I know you all are intelligent enough to know that isn't going to make the other person ever agree with your view, it just pushes them further away.
Fine by me. ;)
When others keep on an even keel and intelligently I'll respond in kind.

In other words

"They started it" :P

[RPerry]

Just when you think things are changing.... they really do


Florida NRA Bill Would Allow People To Kill Others In Public
People Who Feel Threatened Could Use Deadly Force

POSTED: 8:20 am EDT April 7, 2005

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he intends to sign a bill that would allow people who feel threatened -- even on the street or at a baseball game -- to "meet force with force" and defend themselves without fear of prosecution.

The measure, the top priority of the National Rifle Association in Florida this year, passed the House 94-20 on Tuesday. It had already passed the Senate.

Bush, who has championed tougher penalties for people convicted of using guns in crimes, said the bill is about self-defense and called it "a good, common sense, anti-crime issue."

The measure essentially extends a right Floridians already have in their home or car. Under present law, however, people attacked anywhere else are supposed to do what they can to avoid escalating the situation and can use deadly force only after they've tried to retreat.

"I'm sorry, people, but if I'm attacked I shouldn't have a duty to retreat," said the bill's sponsor, state Rep. Dennis Baxley. "That's a good way to get shot in the back."

Baxley said that if people have the clear right to defend themselves without having to worry about legal consequences, criminals will think twice.

Opponents feared the bill would make Florida resemble the wild West, but defenders say it is no different from what most other states allow in laws governing self-defense.

The bill said a person has "the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another."

http://www.wftv.com/news/4355286/detail.html

[Peerzy]

Just when you think things are changing.... they really do



http://www.wftv.com/news/4355286/detail.html


Only in America would you be allowed to take like another persons life if they threatened you with nasty words and a big foam finger.

[MCHeshPants420]

Just when you think things are changing.... they really do



http://www.wftv.com/news/4355286/detail.html

http://www.phenomenologycenter.org/images/shootout.jpg

[RPerry]

Only in America would you be allowed to take like another persons life if they threatened you with nasty words and a big foam finger. I'm sorry, I didn't have the Dr. Suess version for you, to help you understand Peerzy. It says "the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another." Meeting force with force doesn't include your stuffed animals :rolleyes:

[Peerzy]

I'm sorry, I didn't have the Dr. Suess version for you, to help you understand Peerzy. It says "the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so, to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another." Meeting force with force doesn't include your stuffed animals :rolleyes:



So teaching children that if someone hits you, that you smack them back in the face is right? Teaching children to retaliate whenever possible, teaching children that violence is the answer.

God Bless America :rolleyes:

[manker]

Jeb Bush rawks :dry:

Two blokes meet in a dark alley, one guy shoots the other without provacation but in court says that the dead bloke was trying to steal his wallet.

I'm with Peerzy. That proposed ammendment is absolutely ridiculous.

A thousand floridian defence lawyers are smiling inside but looking in the mirror with deadpan faces and practicing the line "My client thought his life was in danger, he had every right to shoot to kill" -- how can they fail to win the case. The only person who knows for certain to the contrary has a tag on his toe.

As to the bill making criminals think twice, all it will do is give them the notion that they'd better get that first shot in.

For a state with such a high income, and dependency in some parts, regarding foreign tourism - Florida has just made itself as appealing to Europeans and Japanese as Tikrit.

[RPerry]

Jeb Bush rawks :dry:

Two blokes meet in a dark alley, one guy shoots the other without provacation but in court says that the dead bloke was trying to steal his wallet.

I'm with Peerzy. That proposed ammendment is absolutely ridiculous.

A thousand floridian defence lawyers are smiling inside but looking in the mirror with deadpan faces and practicing the line "My client thought his life was in danger, he had every right to shoot to kill" -- how can they fail to win the case. The only person who knows for certain to the contrary has a tag on his toe.

As to the bill making criminals think twice, all it will do is give them the notion that they'd better get that first shot in.

For a state with such a high income, and dependency in some parts, regarding foreign tourism - Florida has just made itself as appealing to Europeans and Japanese as Tikrit.

I never said I agreed with the law change, you would just assume that knowing we have a gun in our house. I do think the law change is just asking for more firearm deaths than we already have.
However... Not only is Florida a Tourism state, its a retirement state, and I'm happy for the older people who don't have to put up with the bullshit criminals do to them.
I would not choose this law for myself, I'm still young enough to fend for me. its easy for a senior citizen to get a permit to carry though, so I feel happy for them.

[MCHeshPants420]

I never said I agreed with the law change, you would just assume that knowing we have a gun in our house. I do think the law change is just asking for more firearm deaths than we already have.
However... Not only is Florida a Tourism state, its a retirement state, and I'm happy for the older people who don't have to put up with the bullshit criminals do to them.
I would not choose this law for myself, I'm still young enough to fend for me. its easy for a senior citizen to get a permit to carry though, so I feel happy for them.

Old people with guns? :ph34r: They kill enough people on the roads...

[RPerry]

Old people with guns? :ph34r: They kill enough people on the roads...

Maybe where you live thats the case, but we seem to have a problem with the 18-22 hispanic people in my area. Ask anyone who's been to Puerto Rico :P

[manker]

I never said I agreed with the law change, you would just assume that knowing we have a gun in our house. I do think the law change is just asking for more firearm deaths than we already have.
However... Not only is Florida a Tourism state, its a retirement state, and I'm happy for the older people who don't have to put up with the bullshit criminals do to them.
I would not choose this law for myself, I'm still young enough to fend for me. its easy for a senior citizen to get a permit to carry though, so I feel happy for them.Eh?

Why did you presume that diatribe was aimed at you, as you rightly say, you never said that you agreed with it.

I didn't quote you and was merely stating my opinion on the matter, is that okay.


But since you've replied ... .

I'm in favour of re-testing drivers at 60 because they're a nuisance on the road and cost lives, it's a fact that your reflexes dull as you get to a certain age. This new law is going to make the criminals adopt a new mentality, kill or be killed.

Even if the pensioner is packing, what chance does he or she have. By the time that they fumble around for the weapon, the criminal is going to be pointing his own at their face or discharging it.

[Peerzy]

http://www.coralcastle.com/img%5Camerica-flag.jpg

The hunt is on, kill or be killed....

[RPerry]

Eh?

Why did you presume that diatribe was aimed at you, as you rightly say, you never said that you agreed with it.

I didn't quote you and was merely stating my opinion on the matter, is that okay.


But since you've replied ... .

I'm in favour of re-testing drivers at 60 because they're a nuisance on the road and cost lives, it's a fact that your reflexes dull as you get to a certain age. This new law is going to make the criminals adopt a new mentality, kill or be killed.

It seems to me the criminals were killing anyway...... :huh:

[manker]

It seems to me the criminals were killing anyway...... :huh:Wow, that special Floridian law of the right to carry a weapon in public seems to be working a treat.


Even if they are killing at the moment, which they undoubtedly are, you can't be blind to the fact that it's probable that they would be more disposed to discharge their weapon because of this law. If a criminal feels threatened then he will take steps to defend himself and remember, he is not bound by the law of the land.

This law is encouraging members of the public to stand their ground against muggers. FFS, give him your damn wallet!

[Peerzy]

It seems to me the criminals were killing anyway...... :huh:


But now they can get away with it.

[RPerry]

Wow, that special Floridian law of the right to carry a weapon in public seems to be working a treat.


Even if they are killing at the moment, which they undoubtedly are, you can't be blind to the fact that it's probable that they would be more disposed to discharge their weapon because of this law. If a criminal feels threatened then he will take steps to defend himself and remember, he is not bound by the law of the land.

This law is encouraging members of the public to stand their ground against muggers. FFS, give him your damn wallet!

I don't think its so much muggings that encouraged this law. Can't back it up because I don't remember where I saw it, but it seems people who were polled as to how much cash they carry averaged around $20. The majority of people just carry their bank debit card. In all seriousness, I think the most trouble is going to occur where it has been anyway, in Downtown Orlando where the drug dealers hang out on the corners or Orange Blossom Trail.....
I'm sure those who are against this law will have numbers for others too see exactly how many more peolple were killed as a direct result of this law.

[manker]

What else is there apart from attacks for cash or a cash equivalent, i.e. muggings.

There is sexual assault but that's it. Under existing law, I imagine it would already be okay for a woman to shoot a guy that was trying to rape her.

Dennis Baxley said 'If I was attacked I shouldn't have to take a backward step' so presumably he is talking of being mugged or just getting beaten up for being an idiot.

[RPerry]

What else is there apart from attacks for cash or a cash equivalent, i.e. muggings.

There is sexual assault but that's it. Under existing law, I imagine it would already be okay for a woman to shoot a guy that was trying to rape her.

Dennis Baxley said 'If I was attacked I shouldn't have to take a backward step' so presumably he is talking of being mugged or just getting beaten up for being an idiot.
I honestly can't answer that, because as I said, I knew nothing of this law until last night reading the newspaper.... I would think the 2 biggest reasons would be home invasion, or car jackings, however both were already covered under the old law :blink:
We did have several tourists from the UK that were held up in front of their motel rooms some time back, but you guys can't have guns, don't believe in havings guns, can't carry them on the airplane even if you did, so I'm sure that isn't it either.
I sure The NRA made a contribution to Jeb Bush for his impending presidency or something.... that must be it :lol:

[manker]

I honestly can't answer that, because as I said, I knew nothing of this law until last night reading the newspaper.... I would think the 2 biggest reasons would be home invasion, or car jackings, however both were already covered under the old law :blink:
We did have several tourists from the UK that were held up in front of their motel rooms some time back, but you guys can't have guns, don't believe in havings guns, can't carry them on the airplane even if you did, so I'm sure that isn't it either.
I sure The NRA made a contribution to Jeb Bush for his impending presidency or something.... that must be it :lol::lol: :D

It's a weird one for sure.

[MCHeshPants420]

Though he was talking about Iraq I think Bill Hicks' may have been on to something:


We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane ... throwing the pistol at the sheep herder's feet: "Pick it up." "I don't wanna pick it up mister, you'll shoot me." "Pick up the gun." "Mister, I don't want no trouble, huh. I just came down town here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about 10 rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, mister." "Pick up the gun." Boom, boom. "You all saw him. He had a gun."

[Snee]

The "scholarly study" was conducted during my recently abandoned pursuit of a career in corrections management, SnnY.

Enabled by my past employment with the State of Michigan, I accessed several contacts with several different law-enforcement agencies across the state to explore the criminal exploits and habits of your garden-variety criminal, and gained the requisite knowledge to aver as I have in this thread.

My efforts in this direction were abandoned due to my cardiac event a few years back.

I have not forgotten that which I learned, however.
I'm not entirely convinced by this. I can buy that the average burglar would seek to avoid conflict but, but I have a hard time seeing how you can make conclusive statements regard their ability to aim a gun at relatively short range.

In my experience it's fairly easy to hit something a few metres away with any weapon, be it a tossed rock, a waterpistol, a bow or a bb gun, and I assume the principle is the same with a handgun too. I didn't need training to hit things smaller than a human body from five metres away, or maybe even ten (but then again, my instructor at the (bb) shooting-club told me I was a natural, so who knows :rolleyes: ).

No matter how little you've trained, it's mostly a case of point-and-shoot at close range, they might not even hit you center-mass, but not even a total muppet could avoid to wing you with a full mag. The only way you'd have a real advantage there would be if your training with a gun involved drawing like some bloody cowboy.

Sure, you might be more likely to hit them exactly where you aim, and maybe you'll have an easier time hitting them with all your shots, but I reckon it only takes one shot. This is of course in optimal conditions, if everyone is moving around it's a bastard no matter the amount of training involved, all in all, it might be more a matter of luck than any sort of skill.



The reckless idiots are, by-and-large, precisely the type to engage in burglaries and/or other strong-arm activites, and they are entitled to my contempt as prospective opponents, especially when they are on my turf.

My point is that truly "gifted" criminals do not engage in home invasions, SnnY.
I don't quite grasp this, as I suggested that they'd be shooting at stuff just for the hell of it, and thus be getting some training, specifically because they are idiots.

But putting that aside, it takes all kinds to do crime, including someone like me at a certain point in life. I never fancied myself overly reckless, and while I'd never under any circumstances have broken into anyone's home, since my conscience would not have let me, the concept of burglary might not be an entirely foreign concept for me.

What I can tell is that if I had encountered someone, child or adult, female or male, I'd have legged it, 'cos I sure as hell wouldn't have stood around waiting for anyone to memorize my face.

The only way you'd have gotten me to hurt someone would have been if they'd attacked or threatened me with a knife or something, 'cos then I reckon any survival instincts might have kicked in. Like I've said before, I think most people would avoid conflict as far as they could, and while I suppose that the gun, assuming nothing goes wrong, would be some form of deterrent to those abnormal enough to attack you without provocation, I also think that it might trigger an aggressive response in some that would otherwise have done the sane thing and just left.

And contest this as much as you like, but people tend to be part of the norm, no matter where in society they are currently at, your thugs might be idiots, but I still don't think it's possible that most of them would immediately charge you, rather than run.



If I grant your point about "you never know", I still like my odds, and if this offends you, I apologize.

I am at heart an extremely peaceful, go-along to get-along kind of guy.

Just don't fuck with my stuff.

I don't walk around acting tough, or giving off that particular vibe-I know how to if I want, but I've never particularly wanted to.
Like I've said I think that just the sight of you might be protection enough, that's why most of them would pick a time when they think that you aren't at home. if you aren't at home to wave it about, the gun is absolutely useless anyway.

Most of us feel just that way, "don't fuck with my stuff", it's a fairly normal mode of thought, but I don't think it'd be worth risking my life over. Also, quite frankly, I would be a bit worried about who I might shoot too. No matter if the law was on my side, I'd still have to live with the fact that I'd shot a fifteen-year-old kid out for thrills, if so was the case.

I'd rather lose my tv than have to live with that.

There are more than one type of gun-related accident, the notion of accidentally just pulling the trigger when you are pointing the gun at someone already, scares me, and it doesn't seem too improbable. You wouldn't know who he or she might have been in the future. I would not want that responsibility.


Apart from that I think that, ultimately, odds or not, this belief that owning a gun is worthwhile because it might save you is just that, a belief, looking at statistics or using common sense it's pretty evident that people get injured or killed by guns a lot more often, and that the number of deaths per capita is higher, than in a civilized society that doesn't have them. Thus I think it is safe to say that the right to own guns never saved anyone, and that the belief in them as a saviour is misplaced.

A lot of people get killed, and while they do have guns to protect them, this hardly seems to bring down the number of deaths.


The odds (as I have stated) are against someone so forewarned breaking in.

As Busyman has pointed out, criminals are not, at heart, heroic, and do not
"lose face" if they move on to a situation which is likely to be more productive.

I hope you can forgive my callousness in deciding not to absorb an assault in order to save someone less well-prepared than I.

After all, it is probably about 3 AM, and I need my beauty sleep.
Again, the sign is not the gun, if you do have one, and it wards them off, then it would have done exactly the same thing without you owning the gun.

At the same time, if the sign is there to announce that you have a gun, then any burglars that do enter your home, will be burglars prepared to shoot you to defend themselves.

If the sign says something else, announcing the existence of an alarm or so, then the sign and the gun have no bearing on each other. And the effectiveness of the one doesn't in any way reflect upon the other.





Well you are grasping at straws. Saying that I can a fever and then relate it to handling a gun on the very oft chance they would happen at the same time and then to further that say that it will affect judgement is....fishing.

No it isn't, I'm saying that there're all kinds of reasons that you might not be performing at your best, illness and alcohol are just two examples. The world doesn't wait for you to react when it's convenient. you want to think that any one of these things is unlikely on its own, that's fine, but that's not the same thing as saying that one of a thousand silly things that might go wrong happening is equally unlikely. It's impossible to do things exactly the way you want, pretty much no matter what you are trying to do.


I tell you I handle my gun rarely yet because you just don't like guns, find any remote reason to say it's a bad thing to have one. This could done with ANYTHING.
I've never said I didn't like guns, not liking guns is not the same thing as saying they aren't necessary for the purpose you have them for.

If you owned yours to hunt, or because you were in the police, then it would be something else entirely.

I couldn't argue about just anything, you know this just as well as I, and if this was an argument to which I had no arguments, you'd hardly be pulling out these kinds of non-sequiteurs in lieu of actual arguments to support your stance.


Further prove as to the "you don't know what you are talking about" department is that not everyone is packing. You even conveniently added the carjackers kill people because everyone has a gun.
I know that people get shot simply because some robbers think it's easier to have no one screaming and moving around and just take what they want.
And this means what?

I conveniently forget..? What I'm saying is that they might be thinking just the same thing as you ie "my antagonist in this matter may be dangerous to me, so as a precaution I'll use my gun to ensure that he or she doesn't hurt me". Everybody knows it's perfectly possible to live without a gun, but a lot of people are afraid that the other party might have one, you yourself is a perfectly valid example of this.

As for the rest, it really doesn't matter why they got shot, the point is that they did get shot, gun or not.


Btw using the word might on my part directly correlates to my reason for owning a gun. Yours is a fishing expedition.

Logic dictates that my owning a gun could save my life. Having it my house is not a risk since it is locked. It is loaded at the gun range and unloaded before I leave there.

Logic dictates nothing in this case, statistics indicate that there's no conclusive evidence to support your stance. Your gun might as well be what gets you in trouble, either because one of a thousand things goes wrong with your handling of it, or because the sight of it is what provokes someone else into shooting you.

I would not call my "logic" fishing, when yours is as unsteady as it is.


Your views of America are born out of ignorance. I couldn't claim to know of your area having not been there. This is not Beirut.

Watch F9/11 again or something. Gun activists focus on those that improperly hande guns to prove a point and ignore those with proper handling. You got me mixed up son.

I have never seen F9/11, and my views of your country comes from watching people, coupled with what I know about your system. I know how people act, and I know how accidents happen.

This has absolutely nothing to with ignorance. I'm not a gun-activist, and I have no party-affiliation whatsoever, I say what I say because it's what makes sense.



But really, this is going nowhere, you've both got your faith in guns, and I've got my conviction.

[Busyman]

I think the new law was unnecessary.

The law takes pressure off the victim to deflate a situation. I like it better when, even if allowed to carry a concealed weapon, that there would more of a threat that the victim would put the ringer in court for his/her actions.

The laws intentions are good. I know folks that, weren't for a gun, they'd be dead right now. It's the only reason I'm here now. The problem.....

Ii I had shot this person with my own gun I'd be in jail. It so happens that I shot him with one of his and still I was given shit about it.

[Busyman]

I'm not entirely convinced by this. I can buy that the average burglar would seek to avoid conflict but, but I have a hard time seeing how you can make conclusive statements regard their ability to aim a gun at relatively short range.

In my experience it's fairly easy to hit something a few metres away with any weapon, be it a tossed rock, a waterpistol, a bow or a bb gun, and I assume the principle is the same with a handgun too. I didn't need training to hit things smaller than a human body from five metres away, or maybe even ten (but then again, my instructor at the (bb) shooting-club told me I was a natural, so who knows :rolleyes: ).

No matter how little you've trained, it's mostly a case of point-and-shoot at close range, they might not even hit you center-mass, but not even a total muppet could avoid to wing you with a full mag. The only way you'd have a real advantage there would be if your training with a gun involved drawing like some bloody cowboy.

Sure, you might be more likely to hit them exactly where you aim, and maybe you'll have an easier time hitting them with all your shots, but I reckon it only takes one shot. This is of course in optimal conditions, if everyone is moving around it's a bastard no matter the amount of training involved, all in all, it might be more a matter of luck than any sort of skill.



I don't quite grasp this, as I suggested that they'd be shooting at stuff just for the hell of it, and thus be getting some training, specifically because they are idiots.

But putting that aside, it takes all kinds to do crime, including someone like me at a certain point in life. I never fancied myself overly reckless, and while I'd never under any circumstances have broken into anyone's home, since my conscience would not have let me, the concept of burglary might not be an entirely foreign concept for me.

What I can tell is that if I had encountered someone, child or adult, female or male, I'd have legged it, 'cos I sure as hell wouldn't have stood around waiting for anyone to memorize my face.

The only way you'd have gotten me to hurt someone would have been if they'd attacked or threatened me with a knife or something, 'cos then I reckon any survival instincts might have kicked in. Like I've said before, I think most people would avoid conflict as far as they could, and while I suppose that the gun, assuming nothing goes wrong, would be some form of deterrent to those abnormal enough to attack you without provocation, I also think that it might trigger an aggressive response in some that would otherwise have done the sane thing and just left.

And contest this as much as you like, but people tend to be part of the norm, no matter where in society they are currently at, your thugs might be idiots, but I still don't think it's possible that most of them would immediately charge you, rather than run.



Like I've said I think that just the sight of you might be protection enough, that's why most of them would pick a time when they think that you aren't at home. if you aren't at home to wave it about, the gun is absolutely useless anyway.

Most of us feel just that way, "don't fuck with my stuff", it's a fairly normal mode of thought, but I don't think it'd be worth risking my life over. Also, quite frankly, I would be a bit worried about who I might shoot too. No matter if the law was on my side, I'd still have to live with the fact that I'd shot a fifteen-year-old kid out for thrills, if so was the case.

I'd rather lose my tv than have to live with that.

There are more than one type of gun-related accident, the notion of accidentally just pulling the trigger when you are pointing the gun at someone already, scares me, and it doesn't seem too improbable. You wouldn't know who he or she might have been in the future. I would not want that responsibility.


Apart from that I think that, ultimately, odds or not, this belief that owning a gun is worthwhile because it might save you is just that, a belief, looking at statistics or using common sense it's pretty evident that people get injured or killed by guns a lot more often, and that the number of deaths per capita is higher, than in a civilized society that doesn't have them. Thus I think it is safe to say that the right to own guns never saved anyone, and that the belief in them as a saviour is misplaced.

A lot of people get killed, and while they do have guns to protect them, this hardly seems to bring down the number of deaths.


Again, the sign is not the gun, if you do have one, and it wards them off, then it would have done exactly the same thing without you owning the gun.

At the same time, if the sign is there to announce that you have a gun, then any burglars that do enter your home, will be burglars prepared to shoot you to defend themselves.

If the sign says something else, announcing the existence of an alarm or so, then the sign and the gun have no bearing on each other. And the effectiveness of the one doesn't in any way reflect upon the other.






No it isn't, I'm saying that there're all kinds of reasons that you might not be performing at your best, illness and alcohol are just two examples. The world doesn't wait for you to react when it's convenient. you want to think that any one of these things is unlikely on it's own, that's fine, but that's not the same thing as saying that one of a thousand silly things that might go wrong happening is equally unlikely. It's impossible to do things exactly the way you want, pretty much no matter what you are trying to do.


I've never said I didn't like guns, not liking guns is not the same thing as saying they aren't necessary for the purpose you have them for.

If you owned yours to hunt, or because you were in the police, then it would be something else entirely.

I couldn't argue about anything, you know this just as well as I, and if this was an argument to which I had no arguments, you'd hardly be pulling out these kinds of non-sequiters in lieu of actual arguments to support your stance.


And this means what?

I conveniently forget..? What I'm saying is that they might be thinking just the same thing as you ie "my antagonist in this matter may be dangerous to me, so as a precaution I'll use my gun to ensure that he or she doesn't hurt me". Everybody knows it's perfectly possible to live without a gun, but a lot of people are afraid that the other party might have one, you yourself is a perfectly valid example of this.

As for the rest, it really doesn't matter why they got shot, the point is that they did get shot, gun or not.


Logic dictates nothing in this case, statistics indicate that there's no conclusive evidence to support your stance. Your gun might as well be what gets you in trouble, either because one of a thousand things goes wrong with your handling of it, or because the sight of it is what provokes someone else into shooting you.

I would not call my "logic" fishing, when yours is as unsteady as it is.



I have never seen F9/11, and my views of your country comes from watching people, coupled with what I know about your system. I know how people act, and I know how accidents happen.

This has absolutely nothing to with ignorance. I'm not a gun-activist, and I have no party-affiliation whatsoever, I say what I say because it's what makes sense.
The point that anything can "makes sense". It can make sense that I shouldn't drive to work but take the subway. Here's my "might" case then...

My house is broken into...someone is obviously headed to my bedroom.

I have no weapon and my lights are on. What do I do?

Yours views of my country come from you not actually living here. Your view of statistics means I should already be dead cos I've been around guns forever almost. I know the people here better than you do.

You call my logic unsteady yet haven't come up anything valid for me simply not to own a gun. Your stats don't apply to me.
You could argue why I shouldn't drink faucet water.

[Snee]

Sure I have come up with something valid. If you've missed that then I'd be amazed.

But to recap I can mention the most important points: Accidents do happen.

And...

People do shoot other people because these other people do hold guns.


Just anything doesn't make sense, but some things do.


My view of your country comes from facts that are widely available, be it statistics or information about laws. Although my views on people, which is the important thing in this matter, comes from being around people all my life. Unless, of course Americans aren't human beings like the rest of us.

Most of us are a hell of a lot less unique than we'd like to think, that's why it's possible for governments like your own to base their decisions on statistics.


As for your scenario, assuming we can forget that it isn't that likely to happen, you can barricade the door, you might do well to make noise, 'cos like J2 and you have said a couple of times, "thugs aren't very brave" and this might be enough to make them get out of the house and pick one where no one is at home. You can call the cops, if they've cut the phoneline the cops are already alerted tho', thanks to your fancy alarm, in which case they are already on their way.

And hell, get out the window.


And if the lights are on then they weren't really out to catch you in your sleep anyway, so they are probably not planning on having to deal with you.

[Busyman]

Sure I have come up with something valid. If you've missed that then I'd be amazed.

But to recap I can mention the most important points: Accidents do happen.

And...

People do shoot other people because these other people do hold guns.


Just anything doesn't make sense, but some things do.


My view of your country comes from facts that are widely available, be it statistics or information about laws. Although my views on people, which is the important thing in this matter, comes from being around people all my life. Unless, of course Americans aren't human beings like the rest of us.

Most of us are a hell of a lot less unique than we'd like to think, that's why it's possible for governments like your own to base their decisions on statistics.


As for your scenario, assuming we can forget that it isn't that likely to happen, you can barricade the door, you might do well to make noise, 'cos like J2 and you have said a couple of times, "thugs aren't very brave" and this might be enough to make them get out of the house and pick one where no one is at home. You can call the cops, if they've cut the phoneline the cops are already alerted tho', thanks to your fancy alarm, in which case they are already on their way.

And hell, get out the window.


And if the lights are on then they weren't really out to catch you in your sleep anyway, so they are probably not planning on having to deal with you.
So why shouldn't I own a gun again? From what you've said I wouldn't have to use it unless I really had to (you know with the alarm and all). I people bet with panic rooms don't use 'em much either.....but that one time........

I'll let your shitty American comment slide cos for awhile you've been nothing but on even keel. There are differences in people in different regions. I might be able to fit right in where you are more so than you here. Who knows? I react to trouble nicely while you may not. (doesn't mean I'm looking for it).

I believe the world is getting worse not better.

[Snee]

So why shouldn't I own a gun again? From what you've said I wouldn't have to use it unless I really had to (you know with the alarm and all). I people bet with panic rooms don't use 'em much either.....but that one time........
'cos the benefits of owning one aren't proven.

If you do use it that one time you think you need it, and it gets you shot then you are screwed just the same even tho' you've been oh so careful.

But I guess that given the faith you have in it, you are behaving about as reasonably as is possible, so that's good.




I'll let your shitty American comment slide cos for awhile you've been nothing but on even keel. There are differences in people in different regions. I might be able to fit right in where you are more so than you here. Who knows? I react to trouble nicely while you may not. (doesn't mean I'm looking for it).

I believe the world is getting worse not better.
Eh, slide?

I think Americans are people, and I think that there are certain universal things all normal people have in common.

It certainly wasn't a shitty comment by intention in any way. I am prone to sarcasm some times, but basically it was an attempt to say that I think human beings are the same anywhere to a certain extent.

Sure there are differences between people, but I don't think Americans would act differently on average when it comes to self-preservation or violence. And I don't think that you are more likely than any other people to be idiots, or to want to hurt each other.

I don't think I would be more prone to reacting badly to trouble than you, but that's not to say that neither of us could make mistakes.

[Peerzy]

I believe the world is getting worse not better.


Your right, American's are breeding faster.

[Busyman]

The benefits have been proven to me.

This is where stat sheet does not necessarily meet up with common sense.

You say you know people but so do I. I don't overreact much but there may be an instance that you may yourself in a situation that is totally irrational.

I've seen folks that would stab you because they feel like it. In my day I knocked someone out because they bumped into me without saying "excuse me".

Irrational.

You say you know people but people have saved their own lives by having a gun (myself included). Argue that shouldn't have had one because they might have shot their big toe off or that they might get a fever and there would be nothing but laughter.

Getting rid of guns for people qualified to have them is not the answer, especially here.

Raise the qualifications to weed out idiots. We have the same "weeding out" for one to get into the phone company and then for certain jobs within it.
Why is there a test for a telecommunications job and no test for a firearm? :blink:
The bad part is the main problem ain't registered users. It's criminals.

I have a stat.

No gun = this post doesn't exist.

[Peerzy]

Getting rid of guns for people qualified to have them is not the answer, especially here.


Exacly, America is slowly buttfucking itself, and this new law takes rear-end penetration to a whole new level.


qualified people

Walking into Walmart with $50 suddenly makes you qualified to take the life of innocent people.

[Busyman]

Your right, American's are breeding faster.
...and coming to your doorstep motherfucker. We have no more space here.

When are you finally going to breed anyway? You with your boyfriend doesn't count.

I'll say it for you (since your mouth is always full)
ehhhhhhhhhbuttfucked!!!!

I'm sure he'll be there pretty soon.

[Busyman]

Exacly, America is slowly buttfucking itself, and this new law takes rear-end penetration to a whole new level.



Walking into Walmart with $50 suddenly makes you qualified to take the life of innocent people.
RIF


:ph34r:

edit: I didn't know you posted a second time (during my first response).

Looks like you worked your buttfuck code word in their anyway!!!! :lol: :lol:

[Peerzy]

...and coming to your doorstep motherfucker. We have no more space here.

When are you finally going to breed anyway? You with your boyfriend doesn't count.

I'll say it for you (since your mouth is always full)
ehhhhhhhhhbuttfucked!!!!

I'm sure he'll be there pretty soon.

Typical American, im gonna come to you and kick your ass you little british tosser.

Click me for a nice timeline of about 50 different high school shootings in the last 9 years. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html)

[Busyman]

Typical American, im gonna come to you and kick your ass you little british tosser.

Click me for a nice timeline of about 50 different high school shootings in the last 9 years. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html)
Ok do it. :dry:

[Peerzy]

Ok do it. :dry:


Do what :blink:

[Busyman]

Do what :blink:
Read your post tough guy.

[DanB]

:crisps&popcorn:

[Peerzy]

Read your post tough guy.



Typical American, im gonna come to you and kick your ass you little british tosser.

That was in reply to:


...and coming to your doorstep motherfucker. We have no more space here.

When are you finally going to breed anyway? You with your boyfriend doesn't count.

I'll say it for you (since your mouth is always full)
ehhhhhhhhhbuttfucked!!!!

I'm sure he'll be there pretty soon.

Saying that it was a typical American reply, and that you think your gonna come to my door and kick my ass. I wasn't saying im going to do it, i was mocking your "cowboy im king of the world and because i own and gunna nd im american i can do what i want" attitude.

[Snee]

The benefits have been proven to me.

This is where stat sheet does not necessarily meet up with common sense.

You say you know people but so do I. I don't overreact much but I instance that you may yourself in a situation that is totally irrational.

I folks that would stab you because they feel like. In my day I knocked someone out because they bump into me without saying "excuse me".

Irrational.

You say you know people but people have saved their own lives by having a gun (myself included). Argue that shouldn't have had one because they might have shot their big toe off or that they might get a fever and there would be nothing but laughter. How do you know any of these people saved their own lives by owning a gun? Obviously police officers and such have needed guns but that's another thing entirely. But private citizens who claim that the gun saved them might have been just fine anyway, how do you know you had been shot without it? The situation had been entirely different without it, after all. You might have been able to talk your way out of it, or the threat wasn't as big as you percieved it.

I'm sure that guns do on occasion, in situations where using them was the only way out, save lives, but those times were it's decidedly so are few and far between.



If you've bashed someone because they bumped into you, then you weren't exactly an average person at the time. Most people won't do anything like it, and while they do exist, the odds for you bumping into someone so aggressive in your own home aren't that big. For every one person that encounters someone like the person you were at the time and gets bashed, hundreds maybe thousands never have to deal with someone like that.

And btw, I'm saying this while sitting in a country that according to rob's linkage earlier has the same percentage of assault victims as yours.

And it's a big step between hitting someone and attempting to kill them. As for the blade-wielding indviduals, I have to say that you've moved in some fairly dodgy areas.

I've met people like that, but I don't think I've ever been in any danger of actually getting hurt on account of leaving them a wide berth. If I'd had to encounter them often I'd have moved, best form of protection there is IMO, don't be there for them to hurt you.

Granted, the odds of you shooting yourself or the wrong person aren't that big either. But risking one thing to possibly avoid another when both are potentially dangerous and fairly improbable doesn't exactly make sense to me. Better then to re-locate somewhere safer, if you have to act.

I suppose I understand to some extent why you feel as strongly as you do about it, if you come from that kind of background, but thankfully, this isn't something a majority of the human race ever has to worry about seriously, probably not even where you live.


Getting rid of guns for people qualified to have them is not the answer, especially here.

Raise the qualifications to weed out idiots. We have the same "weeding out" for one to get into the phone company and then for certain jobs within it.
Why is there a test for a telecommunications job and no test for a firearm? :blink:
The bad part is the main problem ain't registered users. It's criminals.

Raising the qualifications should, ideally, only be a step in the process to remove guns out of the hands of everyone but law-enforcement (and I suppose a select few other groups, like hunters, tho' pistols and semiautomatic/automatic weapons shouldn't be necessary for hunting).

As many have said this would be very difficult in your country, but one has to hope that it could one day be real.

Criminals are the problem, yes, but it would be impossible to remove their supply of weapons without making guns harder or impossible to get for everyone but the authorities.

[Busyman]

That was in reply to:



Saying that it was a typical American reply, and that you think your gonna come to my door and kick my ass. I wasn't saying im going to do it, i was mocking your "cowboy im king of the world and because i own and gunna nd im american i can do what i want" attitude.
...and played up to it to the fullest.

Your right, American's are breeding faster.
typical ANTI-American bullshit.... :ermm:

[Biggles]

As far as that particular Biggles comment you quoted...it kinda goes without saying and was not very profound. It's been heard before.

"I wish I lived in a world where guns weren't needed"

Uh yeah. :ermm: Automatic profundity is not attached to veterans, drop-in posters, or old people..at least not in my book.



:dry:

Impudent whippersnapper!

:sleep1:

Now where was I?

Oh yes,

I am not sure profundity is really my bag. I noted the commonality of the generalisation with a "Presumably" in order to avoid preaching.

So, given that a world with fewer guns would appear to be accepted as desireable by all, the point I was making was that this then should be the direction for legislation to move - however slowly and painfully that may be.

Nothing more.

Hi! J2. :)

[Busyman]

:dry:

Impudent whippersnapper!

:sleep1:

Now where was I?

Oh yes,

I am not sure profundity is really my bag. I noted the commonality of the generalisation with a "Presumably" in order to avoid preaching.

So, given that a world with fewer guns would appear to be accepted as desireable by all, the point I was making was that this then should be the direction for legislation to move - however slowly and painfully that may be.

Nothing more.

Hi! J2. :)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know your age, ya old fart. I thought you to be the drop in poster. :lol: :lol:

We all say things that aren't profound. It was just what WithCheese found to be profound, I didn't and sometimes the occasional poster is assigned this mantle due to past errr...profundity.

[Peerzy]

typical ANTI-American bullshit.... :ermm:

Its my opinion.



...and coming to your doorstep motherfucker. We have no more space here.

When are you finally going to breed anyway? You with your boyfriend doesn't count.

I'll say it for you (since your mouth is always full)
ehhhhhhhhhbuttfucked!!!!

I'm sure he'll be there pretty soon.

Typicall American immature male with the attitude that he can do whatever he wants in the world, much like his government.

[sparsely]

Wtf?

You feel differently about owning a gun so you make posts about something we agree on...sound different?

Read the last line of what you quoted ya crackhead....and STFU.

It's amazing that wanker is the only one not looking for combat at every turn.

generally speaking, you make no sense at all :lol:

[Busyman]

Its my opinion.




Typicall American immature male with the attitude that he can do whatever he wants in the world, much like his government.
So your opinion as it relates to "Do you own a gun" has to do with Americans breeding faster?

Do you shovel shit for a living or is it just a hobby? :dry:

(before you cry to a mod again check yourself)

[Busyman]

generally speaking, you make no sense at all :lol:
Why make a reply to gibberish that you can't understand? :blink:

[Biggles]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know your age, ya old fart. I thought you to be the drop in poster. :lol: :lol:

We all say things that aren't profound. It was just what WithCheese found to be profound, I didn't and sometimes the occasional poster is assigned this mantle due to past errr...profundity.

Well the nurses at the old folks home don't let me on as much as they used to - something about blood pressure I think.

People find profoundity in a flower growing in bomb crater so not why one of my posts :whistling

Off out for a beer so I will refrain from joining the bun fight here. One thing that strikes me though is that old 1940s and 50s US movies showed a far less prominent gun culture than today. Was it simply more hidden then or has the US changed?

[Peerzy]

So your opinion as it relates to "Do you own a gun" has to do with Americans breeding faster?

Do you shovel shit for a living or is it just a hobby? :dry:

(before you cry to a mod again check yourself)


What does me buttfucking my 'boyfriend' have to do with America's stupidity and growing gun crime. Do you argue with everything for a reason or just to annoy other people. Im glad VB has an ignore feature.

Also crying to a mod :blink:

[Busyman]

Well the nurses at the old folks home don't let me on as much as they used to - something about blood pressure I think.

People find profoundity in a flower growing in bomb crater so not why one of my posts :whistling

Off out for a beer so I will refrain from joining the bun fight here. One thing that strikes me though is that old 1940s and 50s US movies showed a far less prominent gun culture than today. Was it simply more hidden then or has the US changed?
It's driven by the market and sell-outs.

The entertainment industry plays to the "I want to be wowed" crowd and those that allow it like the FCC and such are sell-outs.

You can also say more curse words and show nudity than back then.

All of this is supposedly market driven. I say it's one of the many reasons the world will go to shit. :dry:

[{I}{K}{E}]

What does me buttfucking my 'boyfriend' have to do with America's stupidity and growing gun crime. Do you argue with everything for a reason or just to annoy other people. Im glad VB has an ignore feature.

Also crying to a mod :blink:

/me loves the Peerzy :naughty:


/off-topic:

Peerzy is right Busyman. noone's opinion is right in your eyes everything is incorrect. you can't have a discussion if you think like that. :blink:

[Busyman]

What does me buttfucking my 'boyfriend' have to do with America's stupidity and growing gun crime. Do you argue with everything for a reason or just to annoy other people. Im glad VB has an ignore feature.

Also crying to a mod :blink:
Hey you used "buttfucked" first and I'm sure you had a good personal reason for that. :pinch:

[Peerzy]

Hey you used "buttfucked" first and I'm sure you had a good personal reason for that. :pinch:

Yes, i used it in the sense that america was buttfucking (harming itself, destroying itself) with these new laws and the current laws on guns. A valid point in the thread. Yours was a personal attack on me.

[Busyman]

Yes, i used it in the sense that america was buttfucking (harming itself, destroying itself) with these new laws and the current laws on guns. A valid point in the thread. Yours was a personal attack on me.
...and you chose obviously chose buttfucked instead of harming itself. :dry:

I'm not surprised you were attacked.

[Busyman]

/me loves the Peerzy :naughty:


/off-topic:

Peerzy is right Busyman. noone's opinion is right in your eyes everything is incorrect. you can't have a discussion if you think like that. :blink:
...and notice my posts regarding SnnY are not the same. :dry:

Obvious favoritism...

/me loves the Peerzy :naughty:
I know you are looking for a reason.............

[Peerzy]

...and you chose obviously chose buttfucked instead of harming itself. :dry:

I'm not surprised you were attacked.


I choose buttfuck for a number of reasons, not that i should be explaining myself to you but here we go:

1)Was a word that was in my mind at the time
2)Very dramatical
3)Draws attention to my point
4)Very powerfull word, shows my feeling on the point.
5)My use of the word was in relation to the thread, its topic started and the threads theme.

You used the word to insult.

[Busyman]

I choose buttfuck for a number of reasons, not that i should be explaining myself to you but here we go:

1)Was a word that was in my mind at the time
2)Very dramatical
3)Draws attention to my point
4)Very powerfull word, shows my feeling on the point.
5)My use of the word was in relation to the thread, its topic started and the threads theme.

You used the word to insult.
I thought America being buttfucked as insulting.

[Snee]

Doing it to itself no less. :blink:

[Busyman]

Doing it to itself no less. :blink:
Simply saying it is, no less.

I want to see someone come on this forum bad mouthing Europe.

[Snee]

What, you mean like posting one of them e-mails that call the french wimps or something? :P

[RPerry]

jeez... I go out to my dentist appointment, come back and people are talking about anal sex and we got moved to off topic. I actually considred moving this to the drawing room :lol:
I can see people having disagreements, but the prejudice of each others countries is just as childish as the name calling. Its easy to find faults when your not wearing the others shoes. I was actaully happy with Florida's gun laws until today. Though I can find some good in them, I'm afraid it will result in more bad.
When pointing fingers, remember alot of the issues are no different than what we deal with on our community here everyday. Mods get complaints all the time because of deleted posts or topics, cause "we have freedom of speech". doesn't matter if it was against the rules or not :rolleyes: Though only a small example, apply this to your daily lives. Here, in America, we have several hundred laws based on "rights". some good, some bad. I will tell you things were alot better when a parent could whip their child's ass for disobeying. now we have "childrens rights". Want to worry about how children are raised here ? figure out what to do when they are taught in school to call the Department of Children and Familys when they get their ass spanked. ( I'm talking serious disipline here, not child abuse) So rather than being able to discipline your child, you get a loud "fuck you, and you can't do anything about it." Remember this is the same child you conceived, and raised.
I'm feel sorry for those of you who think gun laws are the biggest problem here. Our biggest problem begins in the home and in our schools. Fix that problem, and maybe some of the others will fall into place ;)

[Snee]

When pointing fingers, remember alot of the issues are no different than what we deal with on our community here everyday. Mods get complaints all the time because of deleted posts or topics, cause "we have freedom of speech". doesn't matter if it was against the rules or not :rolleyes:

Yeah, about that, why can't I have the ability to delete other accounts?

I'd only use it in self-defense :whistling

[Peerzy]

jeez... I go out to my dentist appointment, come back and people are talking about anal sex and we got moved to off topic. I actually considred moving this to the drawing room :lol:
I can see people having disagreements, but the prejudice of each others countries is just as childish as the name calling. Its easy to find faults when your not wearing the others shoes. I was actaully happy with Florida's gun laws until today. Though I can find some good in them, I'm afraid it will result in more bad.
When pointing fingers, remember alot of the issues are no different than what we deal with on our community here everyday. Mods get complaints all the time because of deleted posts or topics, cause "we have freedom of speech". doesn't matter if it was against the rules or not :rolleyes: Though only a small example, apply this to your daily lives. Here, in America, we have several hundred laws based on "rights". some good, some bad. I will tell you things were alot better when a parent could whip their child's ass for disobeying. now we have "childrens rights". Want to worry about how children are raised here ? figure out what to do when they are taught in school to call the Department of Children and Familys when they get their ass spanked. ( I'm talking serious disipline here, not child abuse) So rather than being able to discipline your child, you get a loud "fuck you, and you can't do anything about it." Remember this is the same child you conceived, and raised.
I'm feel sorry for those of you who think gun laws are the biggest problem here. Our biggest problem begins in the home and in our schools. Fix that problem, and maybe some of the others will fall into place ;)


Nice reply, agree'd, America imo is a total fuck up, they have so many problems.


I thought America being buttfucked as insulting.

Did you not read my reply a page or so back, i did not mean buttfucking as anal sex, i ment it as America is destroying itself, slowly declining.

I used the word buttfuck to draw visual imagary or the country going to hell.

[RPerry]

Yeah, about that, why can't I have the ability to delete other accounts?

I'd only use it in self-defense :whistling


I guess because If you were really defending yourself, you wouldn't hide behind a second account? :unsure:

[Snee]

:ohmy:

Oh noez, he's on to us :blink:

[RPerry]

Nice reply, agree'd, America imo is a total fuck up, they have so many problems.



Did you not read my reply a page or so back, i did not mean buttfucking as anal sex, i ment it as America is destroying itself, slowly declining.

I used the word buttfuck to draw visual imagary or the country going to hell.


I'm sorry... and you have lived here for how long ? Perhaps you should run for president in 2008 since you seem to have all the answers :devil:

btw Peerzy, only you probably didn't see the humor in my remark, but oh well, you prove my point :rolleyes:

[Peerzy]

I'm sorry... and you have lived here for how long ? Perhaps you should run for president in 2008 since you seem to have all the answers :devil:

btw Peerzy, only you probably didn't see the humor in my remark, but oh well, you prove my point :rolleyes:


I dont have all the answers. I have my own opinions.

I wouldnt dare run for president, i don't think anyone in the world could revive America.

Also i only skim read your reply as it was really long :P

[RPerry]

I dont have all the answers. I have my own opinions.

I wouldnt dare run for president, i don't think anyone in the world could revive America.

Also i only skim read your reply as it was really long :P

well, for gods sake, please become famous and rich so you can see things first hand, for yourself. This way you can quit believing what you read in the tabloids. Your prejudice is blinding you so bad, you took a joke as a direct insult :lookaroun

[Peerzy]

well, for gods sake, please become famous and rich so you can see things first hand, for yourself. This way you can quit believing what you read in the tabloids. Your prejudice is blinding you so bad, you took a joke as a direct insult :lookaroun

What joke :blink:

[sparsely]

Simply saying it is, no less.

I want to see someone come on this forum bad mouthing Europe.

Europe is full of smelly goat-like people who seem to think that they have a superior sense of geography simply because their continent consists of about 1000 tiny countries all mashed together and divided only over which type of tea they prefer.
They also often insist that their particular dialect of the English language is the only "correct" one, and will take the opportunity express some sort of intellectual superiority because they enjoy embracing colloquialisms rather than having a dynamic language.

Hell, at least Americans are ashamed of our inbreds, hiding them all in the deep South, you guys give em thrones and send thier monkey-children to costume parties in outrageous attire.

Not to mention that celebrity worship is about 10x what it is in America, at least our journalists don't run our dignitaries into ditches on the highway just to try to get a glimpse of her new eyeshadow, or of her text-messaging some football bloke.


There, happy now? :D

sparsely runs off in fear

[MCHeshPants420]

Europe is full of smelly goat-like people who seem to think that they have a superior sense of geography simply because their continent consists of about 1000 tiny countries all mashed together and divided only over which type of tea they prefer.
They also often insist that their particular dialect of the English language is the only "correct" one, and will take the opportunity express some sort of intellectual superiority because they enjoy embracing colloquialisms rather than having a dynamic language.

Hell, at least Americans are ashamed of our inbreds, hiding them all in the deep South, you guys give em thrones and send thier monkey-children to costume parties in outrageous attire.

Not to mention that celebrity worship is about 10x what it is in America, at least our journalists don't run our dignitaries into ditches on the highway just to try to get a glimpse of her new eyeshadow, or of her text-messaging some football bloke.


There, happy now? :D

sparsely runs off in fear


:lol:

Sweet - and it's all true. Throw in a remark about the poor dental hygeine of the Brits and you're all set. :shutup:

[JPaul]

I got to page 4 and got seriously depressed by this thread. I assume it has become spammage since then.

It was when j2 (a top man may I add and a chap I consider a friend) commented on people holding guns sideways and mocked it that I couldn't take any more of people not knowing what they were talking about. Sorry mate, I could ignore other people posting crap.

There is a very good reason for holding a gun like that. It's to do with getting away with murder. It is actually quite logical, especially at short range.

If you are willing to take a life in a premeditated way then cool, own a gun. If you are not then don't own one. Guns are for killing people, that's what they are designed to do.

[hobbes]

I got to page 4 and got seriously depressed by this thread. I assume it has become spammage since then.

It was when j2 (a top man may I add and a chap I consider a friend) commented on people holding guns sideways and mocked it that I couldn't take any more of people not knowing what they were talking about. Sorry mate, I could ignore other people posting crap.

There is a very good reason for holding a gun like that. It's to do with getting away with murder. It is actually quite logical, especially at short range.

If you are willing to take a life in a premeditated way then cool, own a gun. If you are not then don't own one. Guns are for killing people, that's what they are designed to do.


I don't own a gun and have refused receiving a gun even as an heirloom.

I have seen gang members holding their guns to the side as you describe.

How does that translate to "getting away with murder"?

Not my area of expertise so I was just curious about this statement.

I am split on the gun thing.

I live in a nice community and owning a gun would be detriment only. But my childhood maid lived in the inner city of Saint Louis. One night a man tried to force her window open, and she shot his finger off and he ran away.

I can't imagine her terror had she not had such a resource to fall back on. Nothing, not even 911 (our emergency telephone number) is going to be able to save her life.

[JPaul]

hobbes,

If you hold a gun in the "normal" manner the casing is shot out sideways and is difficult to find. They (the casings) can travel a fair distance as any gun fiend will confirm. One doesn't want to spend valuable time searching for the evidence.

If however you hold the gun on it's side, then it (the casing) goes straight up in the air then back down, or indeed straight down if you be sinister. This makes the casing much easier to find and retreive, thus avoiding the forensic evidence (re the gun) available to the investigators.

Hence the "getting away with murder" comment. It's a common technique amongst the cognoscenti. If you are willing to fire the weapon then it is important that you retreive the evidence.

Perhaps they don't teach that in shooting people 101.

[hobbes]

hobbes,

If you hold a gun in the "normal" manner the casing is shot out sideways and is difficult to find. They (the casings) can travel a fair distance as any gun fiend will confirm. One doesn't want to spend valuable time searching for the evidence.

If however you hold the gun on it's side, then it (the casing) goes straight up in the air then back down, or indeed straight down if you be sinister. This makes the casing much easier to find and retreive, thus avoiding the forensic evidence (re the gun) available to the investigators.

Hence the "getting away with murder" comment. It's a common technique amongst the cognoscenti. If you are willing to fire the weapon then it is important that you retreive the evidence.

Perhaps they don't teach that in shooting people 101.


Excellent post.

I have never fired a gun or even held one*, nor will I, but now your point is very clear. Thank you for the education.

I must admit to taking a little pride in that I do not want to take "shooting people 101".

*I shot a shotgun once at ducks at the age of 7, but was not paying attention to the details. Knocked me on my ass, it did.

[Busyman]

hobbes,

If you hold a gun in the "normal" manner the casing is shot out sideways and is difficult to find. They (the casings) can travel a fair distance as any gun fiend will confirm. One doesn't want to spend valuable time searching for the evidence.

If however you hold the gun on it's side, then it (the casing) goes straight up in the air then back down, or indeed straight down if you be sinister. This makes the casing much easier to find and retreive, thus avoiding the forensic evidence (re the gun) available to the investigators.

Hence the "getting away with murder" comment. It's a common technique amongst the cognoscenti. If you are willing to fire the weapon then it is important that you retreive the evidence.

Perhaps they don't teach that in shooting people 101.
The fact is detectives do look for these casings and the best thing is to pick them up after teh firing's done.

If one fires without turning sideways they will pretty much land in the vicinity of said firings. :devil:

[cpt_azad]

Neither am I.

It is well to be wary of it, though.

If I lived in an urban area I'd be packing full-time.

and that's exactly why our household has such a wide variety of handguns :lol: seriously tho, lots of breakin and enterings but using "teh" gun here to even scare "them" off is considered breaking the law (atleast i think not sure, but wouldn't wanna try it). my dad does a lot of hunting so he's an avid gun collector of sorts.

[JPaul]

The fact is if you own a gun you are making a declaration, to yourself and your God that you are willing to kill someone.

If you choose to live in that frame of mind, fairy nuff. I don't.

If someone threatens my family (not my goods and chattels) then I will do everything in my power at the time to defend them. I will not however keep an instrument of death to prevent me making an insurance claim in order to replace my radiogram.

[Busyman]

If someone threatens my family (not my goods and chattels) then I will do everything in my power at the time to defend them.
All I've been sayin' folks. ;)

[GepperRankins]

not really. you took that out of context

[Snee]

Europe is full of smelly goat-like people who seem to think that they have a superior sense of geography simply because their continent consists of about 1000 tiny countries all mashed together and divided only over which type of tea they prefer.
They also often insist that their particular dialect of the English language is the only "correct" one, and will take the opportunity express some sort of intellectual superiority because they enjoy embracing colloquialisms rather than having a dynamic language.

Hell, at least Americans are ashamed of our inbreds, hiding them all in the deep South, you guys give em thrones and send thier monkey-children to costume parties in outrageous attire.

Not to mention that celebrity worship is about 10x what it is in America, at least our journalists don't run our dignitaries into ditches on the highway just to try to get a glimpse of her new eyeshadow, or of her text-messaging some football bloke.


There, happy now? :D

sparsely runs off in fear
So Europe=Great Britain, then? :unsure:

[GepperRankins]

i take the inaccuracys to mean europe cannot be put down and is perfect

[Agrajag]

All I've been sayin' folks. ;)
Then when you kill the person it will be murder, not self defence.

For the simple reason that you bought a killing weapon and then used it on another person, you prepared yourself. That is different from reacting to a situation.

However I fully appreciate that your country's view on these things is entirely different to my country's.

[MCHeshPants420]

So Europe=Great Britain, then? :unsure:

Back off Brussels.

http://www.gosh.org/news/celebrity/comedians/images/al_murray_lrg.jpg

[Agrajag]

LOL

Did you watch the audience with, brilliant it was.

[MCHeshPants420]

LOL

Did you watch the audience with, brilliant it was.

Yeah, that was ace. Since then UKNova have been seeding all of his Sky One show Time Gentlemen Please.

http://www.uknova.com/browse.php?search=time+gentlemen+please&cat=0&incldead=1

Good stuff though it has warped my fragile little mind.

[Agrajag]

I actually felt sorry for wee Dean Gaffney, but not very much.

If you can get My Gaff, My Rules (him on stage) it's brilliant. I had a copy but the DVD I had it on got corrupted somehow.

[Agrajag]

Please note the "Sky One Show" comment was pointedly ignored.

D'oh

[Busyman]

Then when you kill the person it will be murder, not self defence.

For the simple reason that you bought a killing weapon and then used it on another person, you prepared yourself. That is different from reacting to a situation.
That makes no sense whatsoever JPaul.

That would mean if I wounded someone with a gun (in self-defence) that it was premeditated.

Preparing to defend yourself does not constitute premeditated murder.

How is even killing someone in self-defense NOT reacting to the situation?

I know jujitsu. Am I a murderer if I use it to kill....in self-defense?

[manker]

I know jujitsuIs there anything, at all, you can't do :rolleyes:

[Snee]

That makes no sense whatsoever JPaul.

That would mean if I wounded someone with a gun (in self-defence) that it was premeditated.

Preparing to defend yourself does not constitute premeditated murder.

How is even killing someone in self-defense NOT reacting to the situation?

I know jujitsu. Am I a murderer if I use it to kill....in self-defense?
If you have to kill someone with it, you need to go back to the dojo. The whole point, at least when I did it, was to incapacitate them, or hold them down. Killing them was never the goal.

[Busyman]

If you have to kill someone with it, you need to go back to the dojo. The whole point, at least when I did it, was to incapacitate them, or hold them down. Killing them was never the goal.
The point is that you may kill them.

Someone threatening your life or the life of your child may not make allowances for you to be picky. :ermm:

By JPaul's same notion, if a woman sprays an attacker with mace then she is guilty of assault.

No sense. :dry:

[Agrajag]

That makes no sense whatsoever JPaul.

That would mean if I wounded someone with a gun (in self-defence) that it was premeditated.

Preparing to defend yourself does not constitute premeditated murder.

How is even killing someone in self-defense NOT reacting to the situation?

I know jujitsu. Am I a murderer if I use it to kill....in self-defense?
Like I said it's an attitude / country thing.

Shooting someone dead would not be considered reasonable force, in most circumstances. It would therefore not be surprising if you were charged with murder.

Using Jiu Jitsu to defend yourself is not even remotely analagous.

Ask any bank clerk, they can confirm this.

[Busyman]

Is there anything, at all, you can't do :rolleyes:
Of course.

I can't dunk a basketball anymore.

[Agrajag]

The point is that you may kill them.

Someone threatening your life or the life of your child may not make allowances for you to be picky. :ermm:

By JPaul's same notion, if a woman sprays an attacker with mace then she is guilty of assault.

No sense. :dry:
Not the same at all, as stated previously the mace would likely constitute reasonable force.

[Snee]

@busy: I never got taught any death-blows tho'.

Using it to kill someone would be an accident, not something deliberate, for me.

I might have been able to dislocate a shoulder, or break a wrist.
But if I'd killed someone it would have been through a throw gone wrong, or something, not a choice I'd made. It was, as far as I understood it, meant to be a non-lethal sport. :unsure:

[Busyman]

Like I said it's an attitude / country thing.

Shooting someone dead would not be considered reasonable force, in most circumstances. It would therefore not be surprising if you were charged with murder.

Using Jiu Jitsu to defend yourself is not even remotely analagous.

Ask any bank clerk, they can confirm this.
But a moment ago you said it is murder.

It has nothing to do with attitude/country. It has to do with survival.

An intruder is aiming at you and you shoot first...in your house. By your account, if he dies, then it still wasn't self-defense. :blink:

You should took time to aim for his wrist or better yet just lay down and die (along with your kids that you did such a good job in protecting). :dry:

[Agrajag]

But a moment ago you said it is murder.

It has nothing to do with attitude/country. It has to do with survival.

An intruder is aiming at you and you shoot first...in your house. By your account, if he dies, then it still wasn't self-defense. :blink:

You should took time to aim for his wrist or better yet just lay down and die (along with your kids that you did such a good job in protecting). :dry:
You now paint a specific scenario, rather than a nebulous protecting one's family and one's goods.

Now the intruder has a gun (you think) and is pointing it at you. So you shoots and the intruder dies.

That still may be considered murder depending what they were holding in their hand and on whether you can prove that they were pointing it at you, prior to your shot. In my view if you shot someone dead then the police would arrest you on suspicion of murder. Once the circumstances were established you may or may not be tried for that or another offence.

This is my view, for my country. Your's has MUCH more liberal gun laws. A liberality j2 obviously appreciates, even if the only one.

[Busyman]

You now paint a specific scenario, rather than a nebulous protecting one's family and one's goods.

Now the intruder has a gun (you think) and is pointing it at you. So you shoots and the intruder dies.

That still may be considered murder depending what they were holding in their hand and on whether you can prove that they were pointing it at you, prior to your shot. In my view if you shot someone dead then the police would arrest you on suspicion of murder. Once the circumstances were established you may or may not be tried for that or another offence.

This is my view, for my country. Your's has MUCH more liberal gun laws. A liberality j2 obviously appreciates, even if the only one.
I did say protecting my family.

Now I did paint a specific scenario however YOUR view is no matter what the situation was, he died because I shot him while protecting myself and I'm GUILTY of murder.....premeditated at that.

I don't see the logic in that.

If this is to be the case then we can apply it to a multitude of "guilty self-defenses".

We still have investigations here. I couldn't shoot someone in the back in my house and necessarily get away with it.

[Agrajag]

I didn't say premeditated, that would imply (in my view) premeditating, to kill a specific person.

I meant (perhaps badly expressed) more like "going prepared" a term used here, normally for things like burglary when the person is caught carrying the tools of the trade.

If you are in possession of a device whose primary reason is to kill people then you are much more likely to commit murder than if you are not. Murder is simply the unlawful taking of another person's life. Premeditated murder (as you have chosen to read it) is planning it in advance.

[Busyman]

I didn't say premeditated, that would imply (in my view) premeditating, to kill a specific person.

I meant (perhaps badly expressed) more like "going prepared" a term used here, normally for things like burglary when the person is caught carrying the tools of the trade.

If you are in possession of a device whose primary reason is to kill people then you are much more likely to commit murder than if you are not. Murder is simply the unlawful taking of another person's life. Premeditated murder (as you have chosen to read it) is planning it in advance.
I am not willing to sacrifice me or my families life for a "more likely to commit murder" ideal which, personally, I have no desire for.

If an intruder comes then I want the best possible chance of survival besides "begging" for me or my families' life.

The what can happen if I simply own a gun outweighs the what can happen if I don't.

The way I view intruders is that one can't be sure as to what his intentions are. It seems that the more liberal attitude is to not be concerned about this and take a more passive approach if problems arise. You cannot attach normalcy to abnormal circumstances.

[Agrajag]

I am not willing to sacrifice me or my families life for a "more likely to commit murder" ideal which, personally, I have no desire for.

If an intruder comes then I want the best possible chance of survival besides "begging" for me or my families' life.

The what can happen if I simply own a gun outweighs the what can happen if I don't.

The way I view intruders is that one can't be sure as to what his intentions are. It seems that the more liberal attitude is to not be concerned about this and take a more passive approach if problems arise. You cannot attach normalcy to abnormal circumstances.
As I said earlier it's an attitude thing. Not just between you and I, but between our countries.

The normal reason for an attack on your home is to steal things. If the choice is between me having to make an insurance claim and taking a human life, any human life, then I'll make the claim. If necessary, yes I will beg rather than kill someone.

To be honest I think that home gun ownership leads to more violence. The thief who would otherwise carry a club or knife needs the gun, because you have one. he cannot afford to face you with your gun unless he has one himself.

So you can afford and have guns, causing casual burglars to do the same. Making things more dangerous for everyone, including those who do not wish to have them.

[jetje]

Yes. Several to be in fact. We got a lot of hunting rifles, oh those stupid deer.

I can't wait for the day the deer get guns too :ph34r:

I would suggest that everyone with a gun would use it once.. to shoot them selves . It would be the end of plenty tragedies :naughty:

People that think they need to have a gun to be save are just plain stupid
As long as there are people like yourself to use arms to defend whatever they think is defending/taking worth you never be safe....
Your just crawling around in vicious circles there boys... time for a shrink. maybe that makes your views more clear.

people with guns are just insecure... they're pretty much the same probably that needs penis enlargement pills, to think they're man enough

do i need to go on...

;)

[Snee]

Ah yes, the diplomatic approach.

Never fails.

[Busyman]

yes I will beg rather than kill someone.
That passive attitude pretty much sums it up there.

Btw burglars here know folks aren't armed and still kill them.

I recall two horrible cases, one in DC and one in Maryland.

DC - 4 people killed at a Starbuck coffee shop. They were robbed and shot execution style.

MD - 3 people killed at a Dunkin Donuts. Same deal.

....and those were places of business.....

I'm not here to rationalize a criminals mindset. Many times, for criminals, it's about power.

Your quote is all I needed and can't add anymore to it. :(

[Busyman]

Ah yes, the diplomatic approach.

Never fails.
...and sometimes the SWAT Team must go in......

[Agrajag]

Your quote is all I needed and can't add anymore to it. :(

As does your's, you would rather take another person's life than beg for mercy.

Says all I need to know and confirms our entirely different attitudes toward things.

I prefer my way, but I am a Christian and don't really have an option in this matter.

[Money Fist]

i clicked other because
i made a gun out of a thick metal tube
i used gun powder from fireworks
and the fuse

loaded it with a 6inch nail that is wrapped with celetape to fit the barrel tightly
it was very powerful (when used too much gun powder)
nail went thru the skate board (i was testing it on) & straight thru my dads shed

i will always look back now and say "i was insane back in the days"

[Busyman]

As does your's, you would rather take another person's life than beg for mercy.

Says all I need to know and confirms our entirely different attitudes toward things.

I prefer my way, but I am a Christian and don't really have an option in this matter.
A lay down and die attitude...... :unsure:

I can't really afford that passiveness with kids.

This attitude goes past the gun scope (pun?).

[bigboab]

I am a pensioner. I dont own a gun. I am not frightened. It is against the law to carry a gun in this country. Therefore if anyone is found to be carrying a gun it inevitably ends up with a jail sentence for the offender. This is reassuring.

The only gun crimes in this area recently have been drug related. One drug dealer shooting another drug dealer. As long as this continues and no one innocent gets hurt, I am quite happy. :)

I do know people who have a baseball a bat sitting near the front door. This intrigues me because I never see anyone playing baseball in this area. :blink:

[Agrajag]

A lay down and die attitude...... :unsure:

I can't really afford that passiveness with kids.

This attitude goes past the gun scope (pun?).
You can't afford the attitude you do have, as you are their role model.

You appear to think that your personal dignity is more important than another person's life. That's just twisted.

I have said that I would do anything to defend my family and that is the case. Shooting another person is simply not my first option. If there were any way to deal with a situation which did not involve violence then I would take it. If however there were no other way then I would resort to it, but only as much as was needed.

I have made that pretty clear to anyone who took the time to read my posts and not just select one sentence from each to quote back.

I remain of the opinion that you and others having guns has made matters worse. I remain of the opinion that if you try to use the gun or aim it at someone then you will just make the situation worse.

[bigboab]

Does anyone have statistics as to how many kids have been accidentally shot in their own homes by their parents guns? If so how do these statistics compare to the amount of burglars shot in a private house while carrying out a burglary?

It should make interesting reading.

[Agrajag]

Does anyone have statistics as to how many kids have been accidentally shot in their own homes by their parents guns? If so how do these statistics compare to the amount of burglars shot in a private house while carrying out a burglary?

It should make interesting reading.
Based on nothing but my own prejudice I am willing to bet that the figure is higher in the ewe essay than in the UK

[RPerry]

Does anyone have statistics as to how many kids have been accidentally shot in their own homes by their parents guns? If so how do these statistics compare to the amount of burglars shot in a private house while carrying out a burglary?

It should make interesting reading.


According to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 2001 about 39% of the deaths that resulted from firearms injuries were homicides, 57% were suicides, 3% were unintentional, and 1% were of undetermined intent. (See table on firearm deaths by intent by age group).

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm

[RPerry]

Sorry, I had to add this too :lol:

http://www.rense.com/general62/gns.htm

[Busyman]

You can't afford the attitude you do have, as you are their role model.

You appear to think that your personal dignity is more important than another person's life. That's just twisted.

I have said that I would do anything to defend my family and that is the case. Shooting another person is simply not my first option. If there were any way to deal with a situation which did not involve violence then I would take it. If however there were no other way then I would resort to it, but only as much as was needed.

I have made that pretty clear to anyone who took the time to read my posts and not just select one sentence from each to quote back.

I remain of the opinion that you and others having guns has made matters worse. I remain of the opinion that if you try to use the gun or aim it at someone then you will just make the situation worse.
They won't have a role model if they are dead.

Quotes say alot. I mean you can't have it both ways.

Either something is murder or it isn't. You allude to protecting one's family when I allude to something darker in using a gun. What if it's a knife? :blink:

I can respect someone saying, "Get the fuck out of my house!!!" in lieu of firing first. I don't have six guns located in different corners and areas of the house for "protecting my shit".

I have it for being cornered.

I will go further and say that if someone attacks me in my house and they don't have a gun, they are getting shot as well.

I am under no obligation to fist fight, knife fight, etc an intruder due to a no gun ideal. He could slit my throat but yet......I held on to my "no gun policy". :dry:

[Busyman]

I have said that I would do anything to defend my family and that is the case.
Good then we agree on something.

[Snee]

Sorry, I had to add this too :lol:

http://www.rense.com/general62/gns.htm
I think we've discussed that before.

I reckon the definition of accidental death is a tad loose there.

[Agrajag]

They won't have a role model if they are dead.

Quotes say alot. I mean you can't have it both ways.

Either something is murder or it isn't. You allude to protecting one's family when I allude to something darker in using a gun. What if it's a knife? :blink:

I can respect someone saying, "Get the fuck out of my house!!!" in lieu of firing first. I don't have six guns located in different corners and areas of the house for "protecting my shit".

I have it for being cornered.

I will go further and say that if someone attacks me in my house and they don't have a gun, they are getting shot as well.

I am under no obligation to fist fight, knife fight, etc an intruder due to a no gun ideal. He could slit my throat but yet......I held on to my "no gun policy". :dry:


It's murder if you unlawfully take someone's life, nothing difficult about that. If you use unreasonable force that is unlawful, as such it's murder.

You do have different degrees of murder, premeditated being only one of them. So actually no, you are wrong when you say either it's murder or it isn't. I believe you call it first, second and third degree murder.

It is different if it's a knife, depending on the type of knife. A knife is something you can reach for in the heat of the moment and react instinctively with. Obviously that would be something like a kitchen knife.

You however have 6 guns scattered about the house. They are designed to kill people and you bought them in advance. Hardly heat of the moment self defence.

It really is just a huge cultural / ethical difference between us. Never the twain and so forth.

[Busyman]

It's murder if you unlawfully take someone's life, nothing difficult about that. If you use unreasonable force that is unlawful, as such it's murder.

You do have different degrees of murder, premeditated being only one of them. So actually no, you are wrong when you say either it's murder or it isn't. I believe you call it first, second and third degree murder.

It is different if it's a knife, depending on the type of knife. A knife is something you can reach for in the heat of the moment and react instinctively with. Obviously that would be something like a kitchen knife.

You however have 6 guns scattered about the house. They are designed to kill people and you bought them in advance. Hardly heat of the moment self defence.

It really is just a huge cultural / ethical difference between us. Never the twain and so forth.
Ok if I lawfully take someone's life, it's not murder.

1st, 2nd, are 3rd degree murder is still...wait for it....MURDER. :ohmy: So no, you're wrong. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree burns are still BURNS hence the included name. :dry:

I can instinctively reach for my gun in the heat of the moment. If there's a break-in at any place in the house, I am almost guaranteed a powerful weapon.

If you place any weapon around "for a just in case" situation, it is no different than a gun except I have a better chance of making it through my ordeal when it come down to it.

One thing I keep forgetting is that many of you haven't handled a gun to any degree whether you agreed with the ideal or not. I hate handling "instant death" as some see it, as well. However I know how to handle it (unlike many) and realize it will far fetched for me to ever have to use for confrontation.

[Agrajag]

1st, 2nd, are 3rd degree murder is still...wait for it....MURDER. :ohmy: So no, you're wrong.

I take it you were joking when you posted that, after having posted it's either murder or it isn't.

The bottom line is that you are an American, you think it's OK to have 6 guns in your home. It's a way of life thing, bowling for Columbine and all that sort of chap.

I would be more worried about the guns themselves than I am about someone entering my home with any intent other than burglary. Unless I am a victim of hamesucken, which would now be terribly ironic given my position.

Similar to yourself I have had some weapons training, but very little. More to do with recognising a variety of weapons and making them safe. I have only ever fired shotguns or air rifles, but I have handled most types of weapons from handguns to assault rifles. I don't like guns, well more I don't like what they are designed to do.

If you feel you need 6 guns in your home to be safe that's no problem with me, you live on another continent. However I wouldn't like my neighbour to do it.

It really seems to be a cultural deal.

[Busyman]

I take it you were joking when you posted that, after having posted it's either murder or it isn't.
Somewhat. You made reference to the law and but also made reference to religion (regarding murder). They are slightly different.

If an intruder threatens my life and he is killed in self defense it is not murder in the religious sense.

If an intruder comes to steal some shit and I shoot him rummaging through my shit, then it is murder, in the religious sense.

The law is a different animal altogether.

You also make reference to popular stuff like Bowling For Colombine and what not like it's a cultural phenomenon. It doesn't have squat to do with me since those parents allowed their children to run around willy-nilly. If the parents are dicks and I don't blame the mere existence of guns.

Me having six guns was a logical choice for me. Some may have their guns in a showcase. Mine are totally hidden. Some may have one gun but then I said self....what if I'm downstairs and can't get to my gun? What if my family is trapped?

Having them around has been no detriment.

However, I understand your uneasiness due to your apparent more passive attitude toward security. I even heard reference (not necessarily from you) to me having a privacy fence and an alarm system as though that helped make a point when it actually detracted from it. :dry:

Merely owning a gun don't make ya part of a gun culture. The NRA can suck a dick. ;)

[Agrajag]

Somewhat. You made reference to the law and but also made reference to religion (regarding murder). They are slightly different.

If an intruder threatens my life and he is killed in self defense it is not murder in the religious sense.

If an intruder comes to steal some shit and I shoot him rummaging through my shit, then it is murder, in the religious sense.

The law is a different animal altogether.

You also make reference to popular stuff like Bowling For Colombine and what not like it's a cultural phenomenon. It doesn't have squat to do with me since those folks parents allowed their children to run around willy-nilly. I the parents are dicks and don't I blame the mere existence of guns.

Me having six guns was a logical choice for me. Some may have their guns in a showcase. Mine are totally hidden. Some may have one gun but then I said self....what if I'm downstairs and can't get to my gun? What if my family is trapped?

Having them around has been no detriment.

However, I understand your uneasiness due to your apparent more passive attitude toward security. I even heard reference (not necessarily from you) to me having a privacy fence and an alarm system as though that helped make a point when it actually detracted from it. :dry:

Merely owning a gun don't make ya part of a gun culture. The NRA can suck a dick. ;)

"Merely owning a gun don't make ya part of a gun culture."

Yes it does.

But then you don't own a gun, you own at least six guns.

Part of a gun culture with your round half dozen methinks.

[fkdup74]

It's a way of life thing, bowling for Columbine and all that sort of chap.

you just invalidated any argument you may have tried to make up til now,
by referencing propoganda bullshit such as that ;)
I didn't see anything wrong with what j2k4 and (most of what)Busyman posted
this is coming from someone who is always disagreeing with Busyman it seems
ask him, he'll tell ya :P
in fact, I have to agree with too much of what he posted here to try and quote it
wtf is so wrong with guns? when treated with responsibility?
answer: absolutely nothing
same as a vehicle, if used responsibly, no harm done
(I don't see protecting my family by shooting an intruder as harm) ;)
as to how adequate most criminals are with firearms.....not very, trust me
I have grown up in some pretty mean streets, I know a little about them
(I, myself, can pick off a 12 oz. Budwieser bottle @ 100 yards w/o a scope, not too shabby if I dont say so myself) :D
and to the question of wether or not some jackass will open fire because you are armed....
he may, but he might also shit his pants and turn tail, without you having to fire one shot
these are things you never know, so how can it hurt to be prepared?
by prepared, I don't simply mean armed....


oh yeah, btw, I am a gun owner :P
nothin fancy, just a .270 Winchester
and no, not the ideal weapon for home defense,
but I am more than good enough with it for it to do
plus I can always bludgeon a son of a bitch if he gets too close for rifle maneuverability :lol:

[Agrajag]

you just invalidated any argument you may have tried to make up til now,
by referencing propoganda bullshit such as that ;)
I didn't see anything wrong with what j2k4 and (most of what)Busyman posted
this is coming from someone who is always disagreeing with Busyman it seems
ask him, he'll tell ya :P
in fact, I have to agree with too much of what he posted here to try and quote it
wtf is so wrong with guns? when treated with responsibility?
answer: absolutely nothing
same as a vehicle, if used responsibly, no harm done
(I don't see protecting my family by shooting an intruder as harm) ;)
as to how adequate most criminals are with firearms.....not very, trust me
I have grown up in some pretty mean streets, I know a little about them
(I, myself, can pick off a 12 oz. Budwieser bottle @ 100 yards w/o a scope, not too shabby if I dont say so myself) :D
and to the question of wether or not some jackass will open fire because you are armed....
he may, but he might also shit his pants and turn tail, without you having to fire one shot
these are things you never know, so how can it hurt to be prepared?
by prepared, I don't simply mean armed....

Thank you, another citizen of the USA pitching in. Thus confirming what I thought. Or am I wrong in thinking that it's only you chaps who feel this way.

Everyone else seems to think that machines designed specifically to kill other people are a bad thing. Particularly when they are freely available to anyone who wants one. Which is the feckin point of the Columbine thing, a right to have guns no matter how much of a fecktard you are.

Cars are designed to move people about, they are not designed to kill, like guns. So your argument is specious, but thanks for it anyway.

[vidcc]

Thank you, another citizen of the USA pitching in. Thus confirming what I thought. Or am I wrong in thinking that it's only you chaps who feel this way.

Everyone else seems to think that machines designed specifically to kill other people are a bad thing. Particularly when they are freely available to anyone who wants one. Which is the feckin point of the Columbine thing, a right to have guns no matter how much of a fecktard you are.


I can assure you that a great deal of the people in lands where gun ownership is all but illegal would probably have one if allowed. One only has to look at the "support" for that farmer in the UK that was imprisoned for shooting the intruders. Of course this would not be a good thing. The ideal would be zero guns but as I live in forced reality the best I can push for is better control. :(
There are nations with a far deeper level of gun culture than the USA but with different reasoning.... we just don't have many members from those nations.

[fkdup74]

Everyone else seems to think...
to hell with what every one else thinks
they dont live here, they shouldnt worry about it ;)


Particularly when they are freely available to anyone who wants one.
exactly, the criminals will still get them on the black market
so why shouldnt honest citizens have the right to defend themselves?


Which is the feckin point of the Columbine thing
again with the propaganda references.....
and the whole lot of you that bought into that bullshit fancy yourselves intellectuals? :blink:


Cars are designed to move people about, they are not designed to kill
yeah.....put a drunk behind the wheel of a car....


So your argument is specious
no, it just happens to differ from you POV, grow up :)

[MCHeshPants420]

yeah.....put a drunk behind the wheel of a car....

That doesn't negate his point though. Put a drunk behind the wheel of a car and it becomes more dangerous of course. Though the same thing would be true of a drunk in possession of a firearm. The car analogy is a very weak one and really detracts from the second point you make which has some validity.


again with the propaganda references.....
and the whole lot of you that bought into that bullshit fancy yourselves intellectuals?


no, it just happens to differ from you POV, grow up
There's a clash in the two points you make in the above quote box. Obviously you don't agree with Michael Moore but surely that just differs from your own POV. (For the record I dislike MM but I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in your post...)


to hell with what every one else thinks
they dont live here, they shouldnt worry about it
I doubt anyone is really worried about it though it does make for a fascinating topic of discussion, as evidenced by the sheer volume of posts in this thread. If they want to make their own views felt then why shouldn't they? Again I'll refer you to my previous point.

[sparsely]

to hell with what every one else thinks
they dont live here, they shouldnt worry about it ;)

everyone that lives in the US doesn't agree with you either. :rolleyes:

[hobbes]

Gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994 (I'm sure there are probably more up to date figures, but I think this illustrates the point):

United States 14.24
Brazil 12.95
Mexico 12.69
Estonia 12.26
Argentina 8.93
Northern Ireland 6.63
Finland 6.46
Switzerland 5.31
France 5.15
Canada 4.31
Norway 3.82
Austria 3.70
Portugal 3.20
Israel 2.91
Belgium 2.90
Australia 2.65
Slovenia 2.60
Italy 2.44
New Zealand 2.38
Denmark 2.09
Sweden 1.92
Kuwait 1.84
Greece 1.29
Germany 1.24
Hungary 1.11
Republic of Ireland 0.97
Spain 0.78
Netherlands 0.70
Scotland 0.54
England and Wales 0.41
Taiwan 0.37
Singapore 0.21
Mauritius 0.19
Hong Kong 0.14
South Korea 0.12
Japan 0.05

The general trend is more or less in line with rates of gun ownership.
I think I'll stick to a simple "No thanks".

As an American, how can we not see that the reality of these numbers.

Collect all handguns and impose severe penalties upon those found with them.

It works, and we have the proof right here.

The reality is that most criminals don't want to hurt you or want you home when they attack, they just want your stuff.

Alarms are the answer.

One of the unique problems in America is this Red Dawn fantasy that we will be taken over and all those proud Americans with their handguns will unite in some secret army to take "her back". A true, but sad fantasy.

[Busyman]

As an American, how can we not see that the reality of these numbers.

Collect all handguns and impose severe penalties upon those found with them.

It works, and we have the proof right here.

The reality is that most criminals don't want to hurt you or want you home when they attack, they just want your stuff.

Alarms are the answer.

One of the unique problems in America is this Red Dawn fantasy that we will be taken over and all those proud Americans with their handguns will unite in some secret army to take "her back". A true, but sad fantasy.
Sorry hobbes that ain't the answer.

I love folks who point to stats as an answer.

Correlation is not cause and effect.

I want to see number of homicides in those same countries.
I also want to see how those countries are run. What other influences are there?

If kniving deaths were prevalent, I'd be hearing about getting rid of knives. :dry:

We need tighter gun laws here. Period.

I am being grouped with kids from fucking Columbine ffs.
How can I be penalized for the shortcomings of idiots.
Furthermore, foreigners and gun control activists are basically saying I'm one of the idiots due to simple ownership.

I don't give a fuck about what you say guns are designed to do. Hell they also wound and anythings a weapon if you make it so.

I also have 3 swords, a pair of nunchakus, a boat load of shurikens, mace, shuko, etc. Should they be confiscated?

[Busyman]

"Merely owning a gun don't make ya part of a gun culture."

Yes it does.

But then you don't own a gun, you own at least six guns.

Part of a gun culture with your round half dozen methinks.
Ownership does not constitute a subscription to culture.

[hobbes]

I'm a lover not a shooter.

[MCHeshPants420]

I also have 3 swords, a pair of nunchakus, a boat load of shurikens, mace, shuko, etc. Should they be confiscated?

Yes, you goddamn weirdo. Unless you are planning on arming some sort of ninja-pirate uprising...

[GepperRankins]

:rolf: Busyman either lies about everything or needs serious help :blink:

[Agrajag]

I also have 3 swords, a pair of nunchakus, a boat load of shurikens, mace, shuko, etc. Should they be confiscated?
Yes, they should. You are a mentalist, quite obviously.

6 handguns, 3 swords, a mace, a shuko (no knowledge what that even is), a load of shurikens and a rather worrying etc.

Methinks a weapon wielding mentality. Too many violent movies in the formative years.

I have a decent alarm system and a feeling of self-worth. I bet I sleep at least as well as you of a night.

[GepperRankins]

just thought of something. what shape is a house with 6 corners?

[JPaul]

just thought of something. what shape is a house with 6 corners?
I don't know, what shape is a house with 6 corners.

[GepperRankins]

i'm thinking a tent or a sort of L-shape

[Snee]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Crime

I wish I had an updated version of this, I must admit I am surprised at how many of the categories the US actually leads in, but also noticed that alot drop off per capita
There you go, busy.

Be sure to look at murders and that.


I want to see number of homicides in those same countries.

Oh yeah, and if you think not being in the first place proves anything, ponder the system of those places ahead of you. Poor nations, gun cultures, or places with civil unrest. Often they combine one or two of those factors.


...a rather worrying etc.
A cheese grater, perhaps?

[JPaul]

A cheese grater, perhaps?

Just as well cheese fled the board then.

[Snee]

You never know when a rogue cheese might drop by again, tho'.

[Money Fist]

View Poll Results: Do you own a gun?
Yes - 11 - 25.58%

hmmm 25% of forum members so far own a gun.... thats bollox

[fkdup74]

There's a clash in the two points you make in the above quote box. Obviously you don't agree with Michael Moore but surely that just differs from your own POV.
this is true, but can you really be considered hypocrtitcal when arguing against nonsense such as Moore's? :P
and btw Agrajag, my "grow up" comment was a light-hearted shot....
I myself have never claimed to've acheived any level of maturity :lol:


I also have 3 swords, a pair of nunchakus, a boat load of shurikens, mace, shuko, etc. Should they be confiscated?
well....aside from some of those items being illegal I believe....
it does hint at a certain extremist mentality :shuriken:

not that I have never been there....
there was a time when I had more than a simple hunting rifle
at one point i had the .270, a .308, (2) SKSs, a knock-off 1911 .45 Auto,
a 12 gauge, a really nice Pakistani blade, an improvised munitions handbook, etc. :wacko:
(there's some more bait for you activists) :P
let's just say I re-evaluated myself and disposed of all but the .270
which is a real beauty, kept more out of an idea that one day I'll get a hunting license and go get some venison :drool:

anyhoot....I was wondering....had I been a liberal activist....
could I say, perhaps, that the board's hosting of this: :shuriken:
could be deemed as encouraging the "coolness" of shurikens, assassinations, etc?
and that it should be removed?
think about it ;)

[GepperRankins]

i had a g10 and the anarchist cookbook. luckily i'm not crazy, the g10 couldn't kill anything and the anarchist cookbook is full of shit :ermm:

[manker]

I also have 3 swords, a pair of nunchakus, a boat load of shurikens, mace, shuko, etc. Should they be confiscated?Yes, you goddamn weirdo. Unless you are planning on arming some sort of ninja-pirate uprising...
:lol: :blink:

What the feck do you buy all of this stuff for?!

[Snee]

He's a JUST IN CASE KIND OF GUY.

'k?

[manker]

SnnY did point that out in one of his posts.

[Snee]

Or possibly three.

But who keeps count.

[vidcc]

I am being grouped with kids from fucking Columbine ffs.
How can I be penalized for the shortcomings of idiots.


Columbine is a good example of the problem we have and incidents like it are rare compared to the USA in countries that don't have "free gun ownership" but it is unfair to group you with them.

If I was to try to draw a similarity it would be something along the lines of the incident recently where the kid used his grandfathers gun...who was a law enforcement officer. I am not comparing you to the kid but to the grandfather.
This is not saying that you are irresponsible, from what you have written you have taken every step possible and are a responsible person and I am for your right to hold guns in the way you do. That said I still hold reservations about it as nothing in life is 100% and it takes less than 1% to have a tragedy :( and it is here where I side with the "others". Having no guns does remove that chance of an "accidental" occurance involving your guns.

I would like to point out that even the UK has shooting rampages every now and then.

[MCHeshPants420]

I would like to point out that even the UK has shooting rampages every now and then.

When was our last one?

[Snee]

Forgive me.

I had disengaged more completely than I intended.

Did you remember the cats, SnnY. :huh:

Actually, I think the possibility was mentioned; I reiterate it merely to counter posting to the effect that all such criminals aren't as intellectually challenged as I make them out to be-my answer is that if they choose to visit while I am home, they would default automatically to "Dumber-than-Thou" status.

I'm pretty sure that most burglaries aren't intended to take place while the home-owner is home and that almost all the others are intended to take place while he or she is unaware of being robbed, 'cos he or she is sleeping or similar, and that it comes as a surprise for both parties should there occur a confrontation.

I have a feeling that their average iq isn't as low as you might think.

[JPaul]

When was our last one?
Don't be sarcastic, we have one every 5-10 years, so his point is well made.

[Money Fist]

just let these people know u cant vote yes if u own a staple gun

[JPaul]

I'm pretty sure that most burglaries aren't intended to take place while the home-owner is home and that almost all the others are intended to take place while he or she is unaware of being robbed, 'cos he or she is sleeping or similar, and that it comes as a surprise for both parties should there occur a confrontation.

I have a feeling that their average iq isn't as low as you might think.
I agree.

They want to get in, preferably when you aren't there. Steal your stuff and get out.

Decent security is therefore the important thing to avoid this.

[JPaul]

just let these people know u cant vote yes if u own a staple gun
What if you own a staple gun as well as a Magnesium 45

[Snee]

Is that an isotope?

[Busyman]

Yes, they should. You are a mentalist, quite obviously.

6 handguns, 3 swords, a mace, a shuko (no knowledge what that even is), a load of shurikens and a rather worrying etc.

Methinks a weapon wielding mentality. Too many violent movies in the formative years.

I have a decent alarm system and a feeling of self-worth. I bet I sleep at least as well as you of a night.
Well you're a panzy-ass wimp that would beg like a bitch rather than protect your family.

I was waiting for your bullshit behind my post.

I collected those items over a number of years (17) since I've studied martial arts since childhood.

Almost all of them (besides the guns and mace) aren't even located at my house (they are in storage) yet I own them.

You take little tidbits and make horrid assumptions. It seems like I can do the same about you.

Some protector...no father figure growing up?

[manker]

Forgive me.

I had disengaged more completely than I intended.

Did you remember the cats, SnnY. :huh:

Actually, I think the possibility was mentioned; I reiterate it merely to counter posting to the effect that all such criminals aren't as intellectually challenged as I make them out to be-my answer is that if they choose to visit while I am home, they would default automatically to "Dumber-than-Thou" status.

My opinion only, of course.

It could very well be that, outside the U.S., such people are otherwise engaged as clergymen, judges, or other intellectual pursuits, I just can't say.Not automatically, it doesn't require a great deal of intellect to realise that robbing a house is easier if there is no-one in, I mean your average idiot knows that, but necessity may dictate.

If the burglar spots your Humvee in the drive and figures that you've got some stuff he wants, he mightn't have the time to arse around trying to work out your schedule - it wouldn't be cost effective for him because the time spent hanging around comes with substantial risk being discovered and he could be off robbing other folk.

An intelligent burglar may weigh up the risk and decide that when faced with a desperate man weilding a gun, rather than scurry to the gun cabinet, unlock the cabinet, unlock the gun, load the gun, aim and finally fire - you'd just say 'Take what you want'.

Okay, you might have concealed gun cabinets in the six corners of your house too and piles of throwing stars scattered around but he's already got his weapon prepared, it could be that he'll have you pegged as a fairly normal kind of a guy, rather than one who would go to life threatening risks to safeguard his material possessions.

My opinion only, of course.

[Busyman]

Don't be sarcastic, we have one every 5-10 years, so his point is well made.
Your population also pales in comparison to the US. :dry:

[Snee]

Their gun-toting-maniac per capita-ratio is still smaller than yours.

[Busyman]

An intelligent burglar may weigh up the risk and decide that when faced with a desperate man weilding a gun, rather than scurry to the gun cabinet, unlock the cabinet, unlock the gun, load the gun, aim and finally fire - you'd just say 'Take what you want'.

Okay, you might have concealed gun cabinets in the six corners of your house too and piles of throwing stars scattered around but he's already got his weapon prepared, it could be that he'll have you pegged as a fairly normal kind of a guy, rather than one who would go to life threatening risks to safeguard his material possessions.

My opinion only, of course.
Take what you want? Including maybe your life. :dry:

j2 wtf? You've got 6 corners of guns and stars scattered around? WTF is wrong with you....you could stub your toe. :ohmy:

[vidcc]

When was our last one?



Originally Posted by vidcc
I would like to point out that even the UK has shooting rampages every now and then.

Hungerford and that guy that went into the school with a handgun a few years back spring to mind. Jpaul pointed out that it is not a daily event but things do happen You do also have "gang related" shootings.
Lets not be ignorant of each others problems. The UK does have a limited gun problem, it is just fortunate to not be ANYWHERE near the problem we have in the USA and this IMO has a lot to do with the laws and availability regarding munitions.
The Uk does have a limited gun problem but it is limited because of the general attitude towards gun ownership.

[manker]

Take what you want? Including maybe your life. :dry:
Why would he shoot me and steal my stuff when he could just steal my stuff.

That doesn't make sense, but then I'm not a paranoid gun owner.

[Busyman]

Their gun-toting-maniac per capita-ratio is still smaller than yours.
Obviously so since you can't carry guns. DUH.

What is your maniac per capita ratio?

Nevertheless we will have more murders since there is way more population.

[Snee]

Obviously so since you can't carry guns. DUH.

What is your maniac per capita ratio?

Nevertheless we will have more murders since there is way more population.
Yes, but it would appear that compared to my country, or the UK, you have more murders percentage-wise, which is the important bit.

I'm sure every country in the world has their fair share of maniacs, but I'll take the ones without firearms if I have the choice.

[GepperRankins]

Your population also pales in comparison to the US. :dry:
60 million is not much compared to 200 million but compare the size of the UK to USA

and statitics i've seen are measured in percentage so the population size is irrelevent.

and to top it off i don't even know why you said that

[MCHeshPants420]

Hungerford and that guy that went into the school with a handgun a few years back spring to mind. Jpaul pointed out that it is not a daily event but things do happen You do also have "gang related" shootings.
Lets not be ignorant of each others problems. The UK does have a limited gun problem, it is just fortunate to not be ANYWHERE near the problem we have in the USA and this IMO has a lot to do with the laws and availability regarding munitions.
The Uk does have a limited gun problem but it is limited because of the general attitude towards gun ownership.

The gangland bit wasn't your original point, it is a problem but my point to you (and a genuine objection to the wording of your post) was that shooting rampages don't happen "every now and then" that indicates a greater frequency than the actual truth tells. Hungerford happened 18 years ago for instance and Dunblane was nearly 10 years ago...

[Busyman]

Why would he shoot me and steal my stuff when he could just steal my stuff.

That doesn't make sense, but then I'm not a paranoid gun owner.
Oh my goodness....

Because some people are irrational and stupid.

You would think that drug dealers would make their money and not shoot others on street corners, you know, to not draw more attention to their bread and butter....yet they do it.

You would think if someone would just take one's stuff and not kill them that it would mean less importance placed on the crime meaning more likelihood of getting away with it......yet they shoot.

I just realized that it may just really come down to me being more of realist when it comes to the world.

You are making logic out of the irrational and it doesn't work. I've thought about this years ago but came up with logical solutions to an irrational world.

...and it still might not work.

[GepperRankins]

Hungerford and that guy that went into the school with a handgun a few years back spring to mind. Jpaul pointed out that it is not a daily event but things do happen You do also have "gang related" shootings.
Lets not be ignorant of each others problems. The UK does have a limited gun problem, it is just fortunate to not be ANYWHERE near the problem we have in the USA and this IMO has a lot to do with the laws and availability regarding munitions.
The Uk does have a limited gun problem but it is limited because of the general attitude towards gun ownership.


thanks :blushing:

[Busyman]

Yes, but it would appear that compared to my country, or the UK, you have more murders percentage-wise, which is the important bit.

I'm sure every country in the world has their fair share of maniacs, but I'll take the ones without firearms if I have the choice.
Agreed.

[JPaul]

Well you're a panzy-ass wimp that would beg like a bitch rather than protect your family.

I was waiting for your bullshit behind my post.

I collected those items over a number of years (17) since I've studied martial arts since childhood.

Almost all of them (besides the guns and mace) aren't even located at my house (they are in storage) yet I own them.

You take little tidbits and make horrid assumptions. It seems like I can do the same about you.

Some protector...no father figure growing up?

:lol:

Oh the big bad man called me a pansy wimp who can't protect his family.

Now tell me about the drive past shooting you were involved in, that's a good one.

[GepperRankins]

putting the burglar in a kill or be killed situation is obviously safer for you and your family

[vidcc]

The gangland bit wasn't your original point, it is a problem but my point to you (and a genuine objection to the wording of your post) was that shooting rampages don't happen "every now and then" that indicates a greater frequency than the actual truth tells. Hungerford happened 18 years ago for instance and Dunblane was nearly 10 years ago...
I'm sure if I did some research I could find closer spaced instances but I don't feel it should be needed.

I don't agree that there is a timeset for "every now and then" either.

I am not objecting to posts making the USA out to be a "warzone" because I accept that we have a real problem even though it is nowhere near as bad as those outside are making out.
I also made the point that the Uk has a far lesser problem because it does have a "more ideal" attitude to guns.

I feel that your need to raise the point after I made further posting is showing the same indignancy that is being criticised when Americans defend their own views, which is a shame as I appreciate the view from your side more than the US view.
If we are going to have a balanced debate we need all the facts.
I wasn't pointing critical fingers in the post, just adding something which has been sadly ignored so far. That being that even with the right attitude tradegy happens :(

If it has been posted before I appologise, I have been otherwise occupied the last few days and haven't read the entire thread.


Edit: i see you posted before i got this reply out. It is a bit busy at vidcc's home at the mo and took me a long time to write the post in between all the interuptions some of it may seem un-needed now :)

[{I}{K}{E}]

Nevertheless we will have more murders since there is way more population.

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? if not watch it ;)


There are so many murders in the US because people are allowed to own a gun. It's not about how many people live in a country. Check China/Asia there are much more people there and the number of murders yearly is way lower compared with the US. and it's not only Asia, I bet the total number of murders in Europe yearly is sooooooo much lower then the total in the US and that's mainly because we are NOT allowed to own a gun.

[GepperRankins]

i thought the verdict from bowling for columbine was that it was the media running scare stories. he went to canada where they have similar laws there but the main story on their evening news was about speed bumps.

[JPaul]

putting the burglar in a kill or be killed situation is obviously safer for you and your family
Maybe that's it.

Our burglars tend not to have guns, because we don't have them. So less people killing each other.

[enoughfakefiles]

Maybe that's it.

Our burglars tend not to have guns, because we don't have them. So less people killing each other.

Good point.If burgulars rob you when you are out of the house why do they need a gun.????

[Busyman]

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? if not watch it ;)


There are so many murders in the US because people are allowed to own a gun. It's not about how many people live in a country. Check China/Asia there are much more people there and the number of murders yearly is way lower compared with the US. and it's not only Asia, I bet the total number of murders in Europe yearly is sooooooo much lower then the total in the US and that's mainly because we are NOT allowed to own a gun.
You haven't read the thread. (obvious because of your PM to me)

I haven't seen all of BFC.

There is also a difference in law in China where you may have to prove yourself innocent.

You are proving my point once again that the dynamic of different countries aren't just whether they have guns or not. :dry:

[Busyman]

:lol:

Oh the big bad man called me a pansy wimp who can't protect his family.

Now tell me about the drive past shooting you were involved in, that's a good one.
You called me a mentalist. At least I was correct.

Drive past shooting? :huh:

[GepperRankins]

You called me a mentalist. At least I was correct.

Drive past shooting? :huh:
he means drive by, you know that.

he's talking about a story you made up. i can barely remember the details either but you did say it

[JPaul]

You called me a mentalist. At least I was correct.

Drive past shooting? :huh:
Loads of people called you a mentalist.

I think most people can understand why a person would want a gun. They may not agree with it but they can understand why, in a country which has a gun culture they think they also need one.

However to have 6, secreted around your home, then telling us you had all of these other weapons just seems a bit, well mental.

Tell me, did you have all of these weapons before the family came along, or did you just go out and buy them when you had the family to protect.

[GepperRankins]

no-ones provoking me so i'm just gonna say this now.

this my theory anyway


unarmed homeowner vs unarmed intruder

homeowner simply shows themself. there will either be a fight till one party is subdued, or most likely the burglar will run away and try somewhere else. burglars just want an easy life, otherwise they wouldn't make a life stealing shit


armed homeowner vs unarmed intruder

same as above but burglar will be even more likely to run away.


unarmed homeowner vs armed intruder

homeowner cowers and does whatever the intruder wants. it's not very dignified but the homeowner will live to fight another day.


armed homeowner vs armed intruder

both will have the mentality of being in charge. after exchanging bluffs someone will call it. there is a good chance that either or both the intruder and homeowner will be killed or seriously injured.



i dont have any funny letters on the end of my name and ive never tried to get them but i reckon thats pretty much what happens

[Snee]

Now see, I know where you went wrong, that's just how you'd look at it if you had common sense.

A realist knows that they are all out to kill him.

[GepperRankins]

i think post 490 scared busy off.

sorry guys, i dont think this is gonna reach 1000 :(

[hobbes]

Sorry hobbes that ain't the answer.

I love folks who point to stats as an answer.

Correlation is not cause and effect.

I want to see number of homicides in those same countries.
I also want to see how those countries are run. What other influences are there?

We need tighter gun laws here. Period.

?


Comparative homicide rates in English-speaking developed countries

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/usa/firearms-homicides.gif

This is a rather sobering graph. Wouldn't it be nice to eliminate that purple part, then we would be more in line with other developed English speaking countries.

Notice for England and Wales it is represented by that little black line which is almost imperceptable.

People with ready access to guns are facilitated in their effort to kill people. The huge problem I see is that people carrying guns escalate any encounter. In the good old days you got punched, now you get shot.

Often times people get shot because the police think you are going for a gun and act proactively.

It's just logical. Obviously no 2 countries are the same, each has it's own cultural dynamic, but it may be time to get rid of handguns guns and make possession of such a very serious crime. It is definitely time to start considering it.

[Busyman]

Comparative homicide rates in English-speaking developed countries

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/usa/firearms-homicides.gif

This is a rather sobering graph. Wouldn't it be nice to eliminate that purple part, then we would be more in line with other developed English speaking countries.

Notice for England and Wales it is represented by that little black line which is almost imperceptable.

People with ready access to guns are facilitated in their effort to kill people. The huge problem I see is that people carrying guns escalate any encounter. In the good old days you got punched, now you get shot.

Often times people get shot because the police think you are going for a gun and act proactively.

It's just logical. It may be time to get rid of handguns guns and make possession of such a very serious crime. It is definitely time to start considering it.
Why doesn't this work in DC where handguns have been illegal for some time now?
Also our country has different laws regarding crime in general. The UK is an island where as we are not.
Why would getting rid of guns be the answer but tightening are seriously relaxed gun laws wouldn't be? :huh:
btw in the good old days....you did get shot. :dry:

[Busyman]

Now see, I know where you went wrong, that's just how you'd look at it if you had common sense.

A realist knows that they are all out to kill him.
A realist knows they can kill.

Fuck your common sense seeing that you don't live here. Mine goes past DisneyLand. :dry:

[Snee]

Some of them can probably sing showtunes as well :)

[Busyman]

he means drive by, you know that.

he's talking about a story you made up. i can barely remember the details either but you did say it
I've never done a drive-by so wtf are you talking about?

The only thing related to a car and a gun that's happened to me was a stray bullet on Easter Sunday when I had my Toyota.

This drive by stuff is bullshit. :dry:

[GepperRankins]

A realist knows they can kill.

Fuck your common sense seeing that you don't live here. Mine goes past DisneyLand. :dry:
did you read my post?

do you really think thats not how it works?

[vidcc]

Comparative homicide rates in English-speaking developed countries

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/usa/firearms-homicides.gif


I wonder why they just have England and Wales and don't include Scotland and N.Ireland ?
I realise that N.Ireland would be tilted because of the terrorism figures ( I'm not sure when this graph was made)

Still I don't think it would lessen the impact of the graph.

[fkdup74]

sorry guys, i dont think this is gonna reach 1000 :(
blah, not so fast :P this baby's movin, we can hit 2k! :w00t: :P

and this here is nice in theory.....

unarmed homeowner vs armed intruder

homeowner cowers and does whatever the intruder wants. it's not very dignified but the homeowner will live to fight another day.
......but this isnt a theoretical world
real violence happens daily, to truly innocent people
so I would rather be armed and prepared against a potential murderer, rapist, child molester, etc.....
than to think to myself, "oh this poor bastard just wants a few jewels or cash, then to run off safely into the night"
and in that thought, risking my daughter to greater evils than knowing her father killed a man in self defense
I would rather her live with that, than to be exposed to the mental scars of whatever else could happen should someone intrude on my residence
now if it was known 100% that the perpetrator just wanted property,
let him/her have it, fk cares about property, it can be replaced
but it can never be known, and the fact is, our prisons are filled with irrational, psychotic people,
that do unspeakable things to women & children
sorry, but not my daughter, not if I have a say in the matter
and as long as our Constitution grants us the right to bear arms,
I have a say in the matter :)

[GepperRankins]

I've never done a drive-by so wtf are you talking about?

The only thing related to a car and a gun that's happened to me was a stray bullet on Easter Sunday when I had my Toyota.

This drive by stuff is bullshit. :dry:
maybe that was it. i knew you'd said something along those lines. i still think you're full of shit though

[Snee]

our prisons are filled with irrational, psychotic people,
No they aren't.

There are some, but your prisons are hardly full of them, and they aren't all into burglaries either.

[GepperRankins]

blah, not so fast :P this baby's movin, we can hit 2k! :w00t: :P

and this here is nice in theory.....

......but this isnt a theoretical world
real violence happens daily, to truly innocent people
so I would rather be armed and prepared against a potential murderer, rapist, child molester, etc.....
than to think to myself, "oh this poor bastard just wants a few jewels or cash, then to run off safely into the night"
and in that thought, risking my daughter to greater evils than knowing her father killed a man in self defense
I would rather her live with that, than to be exposed to the mental scars of whatever else could happen should someone intrude on my residence
now if it was known 100% that the perpetrator just wanted property,
let him/her have it, fk cares about property, it can be replaced
but it can never be known, and the fact is, our prisons are filled with irrational, psychotic people,
that do unspeakable things to women & children
sorry, but not my daughter, not if I have a say in the matter
and as long as our Constitution grants us the right to bear arms,
I have a say in the matter :)
so you rather risk i'd guess a 40/40 chance of dying in a shoot-out with a burglar than the, i'd guess drastically lower chance that an armed child molestor coming to rape your daughter. a daughter which you don't have because theres no-one under 31 in your house remember

[GepperRankins]

No they aren't.

There are some, but your prisons are hardly full of them, and they aren't all into burglaries either.
and if the prisons are filled with them they aren't getting into your house :rolleyes:

[Busyman]

Loads of people called you a mentalist.

I think most people can understand why a person would want a gun. They may not agree with it but they can understand why, in a country which has a gun culture they think they also need one.

However to have 6, secreted around your home, then telling us you had all of these other weapons just seems a bit, well mental.

Tell me, did you have all of these weapons before the family came along, or did you just go out and buy them when you had the family to protect.
I bought some when I had a problem with a particular person ...a real nutjob looking for trouble, unlike myself. This person also harassed my mother and I end up staying with her for a time and taught her how to use a gun as well.

I'll just say that in one case I had the bomb squad in my driveway and the robot came and blew up the bomb (when it was xrayed, it was proven to be fake (batteries and nails), but the bomb looked like something from the movie speed, watch and all. Paint was splashed on both houses, tires flattened, death threats, etc.

It came to a head when I caught him at my mother's house splashing paint and when he didn't think I was around (he always did shit when he everyone was gone), so I followed him up the street. I asked him what's going on and he turned and smacked me with a small paint can then jumped back like he was going for a gun in his coat. I had no where to run so I jumped on him. A fight ensued and spilled into the middle of an intersection, he got away, tried to get in his van (conveniently parked away from my mother's house), I kicked the door as he tried to close it, tried to grab him by the legs to pull him out, he reached under the passenger seat, cracked me in the head with hammer, when he hit me, he went off balance, I punched him the nuts then in his eye and threw him outside the van.

Police cam because someone heard us fighting in the intersection and called.

I got treated for tetanus and ironically, all I needed was ice on my head.
Xrays showed no broken bones.

I went to work looking fuuuuuucked up.

He is now off done with jail and probation and still fucking around but now to a lesser degree. He served as his own lawyer at his trial.

Cops told me that I handled myself on the stand better than most cops do.
Frankly, he reminded me of that fucker nutjob that shot up people on a train and served as his own lawyer, a total idiot.

Calling me a mentalist is like being grouped with real mental cases.

I'm just trying to mind my business and be happy. Nothing more.

[fkdup74]

No they aren't.

There are some, but your prisons are hardly full of them, and they aren't all into burglaries either.

hush, you knew what I meant :P
so "filled" wasnt the right word
but the fact still remains that those evils do exist,
and I will not have my family exposed to them if I can help it

over-protectvie father? yeah, maybe
I plan on meeting her first boyfriend with the afore mentioned .270 Winchester,
and a fair warning of what could happen to his genitalia should anything bad happen to my daughter :devil:
but then I always was partial to the saying "better safe than sorry" :P

[fkdup74]

a daughter which you don't have because theres no-one under 31 in your house remember

:huh:

[hobbes]

I kicked the door as he tried to close it, tried to grab him by the legs to pull him out, he reached under the passenger seat, cracked me in the head with hammer, when he hit me, he went off balance, I punched him the nuts then in his eye and threw him outside the van.

Police cam because someone heard us fighting in the intersection and called.

I got treated for tetanus and ironically, all I needed was ice on my head.
Xrays showed no broken bones.



And had it been a gun instead of a hammer, you would have been in need of a coffin, not ice.

[GepperRankins]

:huh:
did you not say something along the lines of " theres four people in my house and not one is under 31 years old?"


edit: it was RPerry, silly me :rolleyes:

[fkdup74]

did you not say something along the lines of " theres four people in my house and not one is under 31 years old?"
not unless I was posting under the influence :blink: :lol:
which, btw, has been known to happen at times..... :P
but yes, she does live with her mother,
thought she will come to stay for sometimes as long as a week or so
I can know that she is safe while here at least
no, I cant do anything about whatever may happen at her mother's house
I wouldn't give my ex a gun, she'd blow her own nose off before stopping an intruder :wacko:

[JPaul]

Calling me a mentalist is like being grouped with real mental cases.

I'm just trying to mind my business and be happy. Nothing more.
Saying that I am not capable of protecting my family and that my late Father was not a proper role model wasn't particularly nice either.

I'm just looking after mine the best way I can, based on the environment I live in and know. Which appears to be entirely different from yours.

[fkdup74]

edit: it was RPerry, silly me :rolleyes:

whew, you had me worried for a second....
me and my dammned drunken blackouts :ph34r: :P

(that was a joke) :P
I usually only drink a few times a year, and only while I am handling the rifle :ohmy:
(another joke) :P

[GepperRankins]

stop being nice. you've taken the momentum from my pwnage spree.

i hope you try conversing with any intruder first :dry:

[JPaul]

whew, you had me worried for a second....
me and my dammned drunken blackouts :ph34r: :P

(that was a joke) :P
I usually only drink a few times a year, and only while I am handling the rifle :ohmy:
(another joke) :P


I can't really "handle the rifle" when I'm drunk, so I get someone else to do it for me. :naughty:

[fkdup74]

I can't really "handle the rifle" when I'm drunk, so I get someone else to do it for me. :naughty:
:lol:

[GepperRankins]

How low do you think is necessary?

He just has to be dumber than me, SnnY.

what?

[JPaul]

Hummers are pish.

Particularly the new one, what a heap of junk that is.

[Snee]

@J2:
Why?

Unless your armed burglar is severely retarded and thus unable to work his gun I don't think it's going to do you much good in a situation like that.

Unless you plan to settle it over a game of chess where the winner gets your belongings. :huh: