Never mind the irony, just discuss...

[bigboab]

...the incredible leaps in mechanical, medical, logistical (and other) technologies that have come to pass because of certain imperatives born of war?

I found myself wondering precisely where we would be, developmentally-speaking, if we'd fought no wars?

A large subject, I think. :huh:

Being slaves to the Sudanese or some such early rulers.:cry:

[Snee]

There's no way to say.

On the one hand we might not have had the drive to be better than the other side, and that has meant a lot for science. Our aircrafts might not have been what they are today, and nor might our surgery, for instance.

But on the other hand there's no way to say how many geniouses and artists we've lost throughout the ages before they ever got the chance to build an aircraft, paint the next mona lisa or cure the common cold, or something else entirely. And it's also hard to say exactly how bad it has been for our environment.

[bigboab]

There's no way to say.

On the one hand we might not have had the drive to be better than the other side, and that has meant a lot for science. Our aircrafts might not have been what they are today, and nor might our surgery, for instance.

But on the other hand there's no way to say how many geniouses and artists we've lost throughout the ages before they ever got the chance to build an aircraft, paint the next mona lisa or cure the common cold, or something else entirely. And it's also hard to say exactly how bad it has been for our environment.

I agree. Take the First World War as an example. You make vast advances in technology and lose the prime manhood of the UK for example. The advances continue but what effect has the loss of so many young fit men had on the society today. A lot of young men who did not take part in the war had some sort of physical or mental deficiency. One would tend to think, rightly or wrongly, that this would have some long term effect on future generations.

[manker]

Well obviously, we'd be in the dark ages.

War is built of a desire to procure more and protect what you've already got. The same desire made man want to build cities and countries. In bygone times, fighting wars was the only way to protect what you had or get more -- If man had fought no wars throughout history then it would mean that he didn't have this desire. So yeah, the only possible answer to the question posed in this thread is that we'd be sitting in caves if man had fought no wars.

War is an ugly by-product of the very thing that sets us aside from animals. It used to be unavoidable in the days where man wasn't privee to the knowledge that we have today. We simply didn't know any better. Now we do.

It's easy to put a silver lining spin on war by harking to the technological advances that were made because of extreme pressure to be better than the opposition but by now we've reached a stage where the peace-time quest for knowledge is at an all time high. While progress and innovation may not be able to match the fervent pace of war-time advancement, it's a trade off that I'm more than willing to make.

[Snee]

True enough, as re: your mentions of artisans and others, however, you might further comment upon consideration of the fact much of the art and invention produced historically was funded/inspired/compelled/commissioned by whatever governing entities desired them.
That's interesting too, some of the inventions were commisioned for the sake of war, the aforementioned aircraft for example.

But many inventions, and artistic expressions, might have benefited if all the money hadn't had to be spent on warfare. In short, there's no way to say, again :pinch:


I wonder if anyone has ever tried making a mathematical analysis of whether we win or lose in the long run, by having wars.

It'd even be interesting to see such an analysis regarding just one war.

I have a feeling that we lost out on a lot that could have been, during the first and second world war (if there hadn't been a first there might not have been a second) and that what we (and by we I mean the entire human race) gained, when it comes to development, is nowhere near enough to balance it out, but I can't say for sure.


EDit: obviously manker has a very valid point, in that it might have been the only means of pushing us forward in ancient times, much more so than today, but then again it cost resources and lives (of who knows who) back then too :unsure:

EDitII: The misery and heavy costs of war makes people content just to survive, I think, in times of peace there is more room for people and civilizations to think, and consider what else they'd like, and what they'd want to become. Sorta' like Maslow's hierachy of needs, but on a societal rather than individual scale.

Well that's a notion I've always had anyway.

[vidcc]

I think war produces "need" which is more motivating than "desire".

The question in my mind is one of advancement for good or bad?....it's a balancing act.

Advances in medical procedures is a good thing. Take burn victims and the and the formation of plastic surgery made by the "guinea pig club", beneficial in civilian life.

Advances in Aviation...good.

But on the flip side there are advances in tools of destruction. The benefits of which are debatable depending on if you are in front or behind the device.

I don't want to go down a narrow lane but to me the defining advancement to come out of war is the atom bomb. No doubt it would have been invented even if WW2 hadn't taken place but is it good or bad.

Some will argue that it ended the war faster and saved more lives than it took and also that they have kept us safe as they are deterrents.... But have they? The saving grace so far is that we have been too scared to use them because we are not the only ones with them.... but with the prospect of a terrorist group getting hold of one in my opinion it was the worst thing man has invented.

So in answer to J2 my view is that war has sped up advancement for both good and bad..... Let's hope the good outweighs the bad

[bigboab]

Arguably the space programme has made as many advances as the needs in war.

[Rat Faced]

þæt Engliscgereorde (-geþiode ?) [would] beon befeallen

ge-sæliglic beon




It works both ways though..

Television won the Battle of Britain, in a strange twisted way.

If this had not already been invented, then the British wouldnt have had the Radar which made all the difference. ;)

[manker]

þæt Engliscgereorde (-geþiode ?) [would] beon befeallen

ge-sæliglic beonFeck. Now RealitY isn't the only mod speaking in tongues.

[Rat Faced]

Arguably the space programme has made as many advances as the needs in war.

Yep... if it wasnt for NASA, those fried eggs would still be sticking :P

[Rat Faced]

þæt Engliscgereorde (-geþiode ?) [would] beon befeallen

ge-sæliglic beonFeck. Now RealitY isn't the only mod speaking in tongues.

Tsk, yourself or JPaul should be able to work it out..

[bigboab]

Arguably the space programme has made as many advances as the needs in war.

Yep... if it wasnt for NASA, those fried eggs would still be sticking :P

At least they(USA\USSR) proved what goes up does not necessary come back down.:blink:

[Rat Faced]

Although quite a bit has, which shouldn't have too :rolleyes:

[manker]

Feck. Now RealitY isn't the only mod speaking in tongues.

Tsk, yourself or JPaul should be able to work it out..Anyone can google. What's the point, tho'.

[vidcc]

Arguably the space programme has made as many advances as the needs in war.

Arguably the space programme would not exist if it were not for war technology

[JPaul]

War = Jingoism

Jingoism = Self Sacrifice

Self Sacrifice = Diminish Welfare State

Diminish Welfare State = Disposable Resources

Disposable Resources = Technological Advancement

Technological Advancement = National Pride

In my opinion, only the poor really suffer during wartime. However they are encouraged to "make do" because of national pride and the desire to beat the enemy. Ironically the "enemy" probably have as much, if not more, in common with the hoi polloi, than the ruling class have. However accident of birth seems to be more important than economic or idealogical similarities.

Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Busyman]

War as well as disease are necessary to sustain the rest of the population unless you pull "a China".

Medical advances have made for a longer life.

Longer life = Sustained high population which really cannot be sustained.

Violent crime and death from old age are not enough.

This relates to one problem I have with my country. The importation of cheap labor and an obvious political party that embraces them which ends resulting in an importation of voters. :dog: Run-On :dog:

[Rat Faced]

Send us your poor....

[sArA]

Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Is it?

[JPaul]

Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Is it?
Sorry, I forgot j2 switched irony off in this thread.

Perhaps we should post the whole thing, it's not that long.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Snee]

Arguably the space programme has made as many advances as the needs in war.

Arguably the space programme would not exist if it were not for war technology
You are the one who who was talking about need versus desire.

If it hadn't been for wars keeping the population down, there had been more of us, and if there had been more of us, there had been a bigger need for more space, and since there's only so much space to go around here, the only way is off this planet.

Therefore one could argue that without wars to keep the population down, we'd had another kind of space-program: One with the purpose of colonization rather than exploration/being there before the enemy is so we can show how great we are.



That goes for a lot of what we've gained through "war", ie that we might well have something better if there hadn't been a war in the way, and we still need a lot of things we don't have. Including cures for cancer and all manner of diseases.

If it hadn't been for wars we might well have had the resources to fix our problems. As it is wars are allowed to take priority over letting people live longer and better lives. And people put up with a lot just because there's a war on.

Desire and need is much the same thing anyway, if the desire is allowed to grow strong enough.

[vidcc]

Arguably the space programme would not exist if it were not for war technology
You are the one who who was talking about need versus desire.

.

The need versus desire comment is about the speed of development, "motivation", war tends to speed things up through "need right now" rather than "this could make life better".

My point about the space programme is because it couldn't exist without the tech gained through the needs of war, in this case the "rocket science" of delivering missiles with the object of destruction. I raised by reality and not a "what if" scenario

[Snee]

A lot of people need a cure for cancer right now, and a lot of people really need somewhere to live :huh:

[vidcc]

A lot of people need a cure for cancer right now, and a lot of people really need somewhere to live :huh:

And your point is?

war will not speed up some developements and peace will not slow down others.

[Snee]

A lot of people need a cure for cancer right now, and a lot of people really need somewhere to live :huh:

And your point is?

When it comes to priorities and budget, the army gets much more than research towards the cure of any disease, for instance.

So if there had been no wars, then more money would have put into that research. Seeing as how we haven't been without wars, there's no way someone can say that things are better becuse of the war, or that a certain branch of science, or an invention wouldn't have existed, excluding weaponry of course.

For all I know, as the priorities had been different had there not been wars, all those good things that came out of a war might have been there anyway, as the percieved need for them hadn't been blocked out by the needs of the war.

This thing about "need right now" when it comes to wars is flawed, as there will always be needs, it's the priorities that change.

[Busyman]

And your point is?

When it comes to priorities and budget, the army gets much more than research towards the cure of any disease, for instance.

So if there had been no wars, then more money would have put into that research.
Oh man and if I had more toilet tissue that time, then wouldn't have had to use my shirt. :dry:

There will always be war. Without war there would just be invasions with no resistance (a la France).

[Snee]

When it comes to priorities and budget, the army gets much more than research towards the cure of any disease, for instance.

So if there had been no wars, then more money would have put into that research.
Oh man and if I had more toilet tissue that time, then wouldn't have had to use my shirt. :dry:

There will always be war. Without war there would just be invasions with no resistance (a la France).
:blink:

Are you trying to compare toilet-paper with the cure for a deadly disease?

And have you never opened a history book?

[Busyman]

Oh man and if I had more toilet tissue that time, then wouldn't have had to use my shirt. :dry:

There will always be war. Without war there would just be invasions with no resistance (a la France).
:blink:

Are you trying to compare toilet-paper with the cure for a deadly disease?

And have you never opened a history book?
Of course and I was being facetious.

War spurs an immediate threat to one's very life and the life of their family. This sense of urgency is what spurs the technological advances.

If their was an actual plague that affected almost everyone then this sense of urgency would evident as well.

Notice that rich folk tend to give money to a particular disease charity especially when they have a loved one dying or has died from said disease.

[vidcc]

Snny.

as I said I made the point on "what happened" and not a "what if" with space developments.
The "need right now" isn't flawed because it is based on what actually happened in history. Some developments took off at the speed of light because of the urgent need.....perhaps it was a case of "give a man a day to do a job and it will take all day, tell him he can go home when he is done and it will take half a day". It is perhaps fortunate that we can benefit from the initial research by adapting it for peace time uses.

Of course it is possible that more money may be put into medical research if war didn't exist but then it is possible that it wouldn't. A lot depends on political beliefs. Look at the USA compared to the UK with healthcare. The USA tends to think it's better to have private health insurance where we are all responsible for ourselves... affordability is a low priority.. and drug research should mainly be the responsibility of private companies driven by profit.
The UK believes that the "common good" is the best approach where everyone is covered by a social fund.

The point being that human nature may not divert the funds saved by no wars to the common good..


there are so many variables in a "what if" subject.... where would we be with medical research if we had no religion?

[Tikibonbon]

Look at the USA compared to the UK with healthcare. The USA tends to think it's better to have private health insurance where we are all responsible for ourselves...

Yup, I like being able to chose my own doctor. I also like being able to switch doctors if I feel my doctor isn't doing his darnedest to keep me at my best.

I also like not have to be put on a waiting list for the simplest things.

If I wanted the "common good" thing, I could just pretend I am in the UK and go to the free clinic like all the junkies, drunks, and women who can not keep their legs closed to prevent children from falling out.

[Busyman]

Look at the USA compared to the UK with healthcare. The USA tends to think it's better to have private health insurance where we are all responsible for ourselves...

Yup, I like being able to chose my own doctor. I also like being able to switch doctors if I feel my doctor isn't doing his darnedest to keep me at my best.

I also like not have to be put on a waiting list for the simplest things.

If I wanted the "common good" thing, I could just pretend I am in the UK and go to the free clinic like all the junkies, drunks, and women who can not keep their legs closed to prevent children from falling out.
D.D.D.Damn!!! :ohmy:

[Rat Faced]

Look at the USA compared to the UK with healthcare. The USA tends to think it's better to have private health insurance where we are all responsible for ourselves...

Yup, I like being able to chose my own doctor. I also like being able to switch doctors if I feel my doctor isn't doing his darnedest to keep me at my best.

I also like not have to be put on a waiting list for the simplest things.

If I wanted the "common good" thing, I could just pretend I am in the UK and go to the free clinic like all the junkies, drunks, and women who can not keep their legs closed to prevent children from falling out.


I can choose my own Dr.

I can switch Dr's whenever I want, knowing that my Dr is not making a profit from keeping me sick.

I can choose to wait, or pay for the complicated stuff whilst the simple is done immediately.

Damn, im glad i live in the UK

[bigboab]

Look at the USA compared to the UK with healthcare. The USA tends to think it's better to have private health insurance where we are all responsible for ourselves...

Yup, I like being able to chose my own doctor. I also like being able to switch doctors if I feel my doctor isn't doing his darnedest to keep me at my best.

I also like not have to be put on a waiting list for the simplest things.

If I wanted the "common good" thing, I could just pretend I am in the UK and go to the free clinic like all the junkies, drunks, and women who can not keep their legs closed to prevent children from falling out.

Try switching doctors when you are retired through ill health and you cant keep up the private health insurance payments. Or you have reached the 'limit' of your entitlement.:(
My brother-in-law who has worked most of his life had to stop work through illness. Not entitled to a pension till he was 60. could not keep up the health insurance payments. Now he is downsizing his house and lifestyle in order to make ends meet.:) Fantastic system.:(

Give me the UK anyday.:)

[Tikibonbon]

Try switching doctors when you are retired through ill health and you cant keep up the private health insurance payments. Or you have reached the 'limit' of your entitlement.:(
My brother-in-law who has worked most of his life had to stop work through illness. Not entitled to a pension till he was 60. could not keep up the health insurance payments. Now he is downsizing his house and lifestyle in order to make ends meet.:) Fantastic system.:(

Give me the UK anyday.:)

One can only blame him/herself if they are put in this situation.

Daycares are for children, not adults. :)

Perhaps he would have been better served cutting back on the high life at a younger age to insure a better future.

Let me just say this is for those who have led an able bodied life. Obviously there are those who cannot take care of themselves due to mental issues, diseases, and whatnot.

[bigboab]

Let me just say this is for those who have led an able bodied life. Obviously there are those who cannot take care of themselves due to mental issues, diseases, and whatnot.

How exactly are they dealt with under your great scheme?

[Tikibonbon]

Let me just say this is for those who have led an able bodied life. Obviously there are those who cannot take care of themselves due to mental issues, diseases, and whatnot.

How exactly are they dealt with under your great scheme?

And what "scheme" was I speaking of? Last I recall personal accountablity is not a "scheme".

There are currently plenty of institutions available to assist those who cannot help themselves.

It's not like we send them to the gas chambers and ovens for being disabled.

[bigboab]

How exactly are they dealt with under your great scheme?

And what "scheme" was I speaking of? Last I recall personal accountablity is not a "scheme".

There are currently plenty of institutions available to assist those who cannot help themselves.

It's not like we send them to the gas chambers and ovens for being disabled.
I meant scheme as in health plan. Scheme has many meanings.:cool:

[sArA]

I went to the doctors today, I made the appointment at 9.30 and was seen at 11.00. I was given a prescription that I filled at the attached (brand new) pharmacy far cheaper than the commercial price of the drugs.

I then took myself and daughter to the dentist, she had preventative treatment to assist long term dental health...free. I had a filling on a broken tooth and a polish... also much cheaper than paying privately.

I have paid into the system all my working life, and had periods of time when I have not had to pay. My children never have to pay for any treatment whatsoever until they are 18.


The quality of care that I have received has been of first class standard......


However,

I lived with my children in Boston MA for a year and was fortunate to have the full Blue Cross Medicare at a vastly subsidised cost, still costing $100 per month on a salary of $17k pa (try finding a 2 bed apartment in the Boston area for less than $2k per month!!!)

We still had to pay $10 per doctors visit, pay for all drugs, and wait on one occasion for 4 days before seeing a doctor with my sick child.

I know which I think is better at the sharp end :)

[bigboab]

I went to the doctors today, I made the appointment at 9.30 and was seen at 11.00. I was given a prescription that I filled at the attached (brand new) pharmacy far cheaper than the commercial price of the drugs.

I then took myself and daughter to the dentist, she had preventative treatment to assist long term dental health...free. I had a filling on a broken tooth and a polish... also much cheaper than paying privately.

I have paid into the system all my working life, and had periods of time when I have not had to pay. My children never have to pay for any treatment whatsoever until they are 18.


The quality of care that I have received has been of first class standard......


However,

I lived with my children in Boston MA for a year and was fortunate to have the full Blue Cross Medicare at a vastly subsidised cost, still costing $100 per month on a salary of $17k pa (try finding a 2 bed apartment in the Boston area for less than $2k per month!!!)

We still had to pay $10 per doctors visit, pay for all drugs, and wait on one occasion for 4 days before seeing a doctor with my sick child.

I know which I think is better at the sharp end :)

Yes I know what you mean.:)
If private health was a good method why doesn't the Government pay these firms for a policy for everybody. I'll tell you why, Because these firms only want healthy people.:lol:

[Tikibonbon]

I have paid into the system all my working life, and had periods of time when I have not had to pay. My children never have to pay for any treatment whatsoever until they are 18. :)

That's because your tax money pays for it. They will also pay for it anytime they buy something.

I love this "we have free health care" chants everyone talks about, but they never mention the huge amount of taxes they have to pay to get it.

Take gas for example, prices hit $2 per gallon, we bitch. But alot of these people bitching don't realize in some countries others routinely pay a LOT more. I believe in the UK it is around 5 to 6 pounds per gallon, may be wrong, just what I seem to remember. But what is funny this $2 is only like 1 pound, yet the UK pays the same amount per gallon as the US does from the source. Why the price difference? Oh, yeah, so you can have this so called prepaid "free" health service.

For what you pay in tax, I would expect the government to clean my drapes on a daily basis. :-P

BTW, wasn't meaning in any way that one system was better than any other, just personal views on personal responsiblities and not depending on outsiders (such as the government) to take care of me. I apologize if it seemed so.

[bigboab]

I have paid into the system all my working life, and had periods of time when I have not had to pay. My children never have to pay for any treatment whatsoever until they are 18. :)

That's because your tax money pays for it. They will also pay for it anytime they buy something.

I love this "we have free health care" chants everyone talks about, but they never mention the huge amount of taxes they have to pay to get it.

Take gas for example, prices hit $2 per gallon, we bitch. But alot of these people bitching don't realize in some countries others routinely pay a LOT more. I believe in the UK it is around 5 to 6 pounds per gallon, may be wrong, just what I seem to remember. But what is funny this $2 is only like 1 pound, yet the UK pays the same amount per gallon as the US does from the source. Why the price difference? Oh, yeah, so you can have this so called prepaid "free" health service.

For what you pay in tax, I would expect the government to clean my drapes on a daily basis. :-P

BTW, wasn't meaning in any way that one system was better than any other, just personal views on personal responsiblities and not depending on outsiders (such as the government) to take care of me. I apologize if it seemed so.

There are advantages and disadvantages in every system. I have paid these high taxes all my life. I am now reaping the benefits health care wise.
Not bloody pension wise though.:lol:

[JPaul]

I am a big fan of the welfare state, I think I may have said this before. I believe in the concept of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs"

If that means that some people pay more in taxes than others, so be it. That's Socialism for you and it's more caring than "tough shit, you can't afford the insurance premiums".

But that's just me.

re the advances due to war thing. It is true it happens.

Our knowledge of anatomy was vastly improved by the Nazi surgeons performing vivisections and needless experiments on the prisoners in concentration camps. The data they obtained was used to update the medical books. In a very real sense they are the fathers of modern surgery.

Oh and yes, we got rockets too, which was nice.

[Rat Faced]

I have paid into the system all my working life, and had periods of time when I have not had to pay. My children never have to pay for any treatment whatsoever until they are 18. :)

That's because your tax money pays for it. They will also pay for it anytime they buy something.

I love this "we have free health care" chants everyone talks about, but they never mention the huge amount of taxes they have to pay to get it.

Take gas for example, prices hit $2 per gallon, we bitch. But alot of these people bitching don't realize in some countries others routinely pay a LOT more. I believe in the UK it is around 5 to 6 pounds per gallon, may be wrong, just what I seem to remember. But what is funny this $2 is only like 1 pound, yet the UK pays the same amount per gallon as the US does from the source. Why the price difference? Oh, yeah, so you can have this so called prepaid "free" health service.

For what you pay in tax, I would expect the government to clean my drapes on a daily basis. :-P

BTW, wasn't meaning in any way that one system was better than any other, just personal views on personal responsiblities and not depending on outsiders (such as the government) to take care of me. I apologize if it seemed so.

The UK government pays less %GDP on Healthcare than the US Government does, and provides a universal healthcare system.

The USA pays more %GDP and most people have to take out private health insurance...

Your argument re: Taxes is therefore a non-starter, you pay more that way than we do towards health... for what exactly?

In addition.. dependant upon which State you live in, you may pay more Taxes than we do anyway.

Federal Taxes, State Taxes, City Taxes.. they all add up.

[Busyman]

I am a big fan of the welfare state, I think I may have said this before. I believe in the concept of "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs"

If that means that some people pay more in taxes than others, so be it. That's Socialism for you and it's more caring than "tough shit, you can't afford the insurance premiums".

But that's just me.
I like welfare to a degree. However, it needs a tweaking for those who are irresponsible.

For example, in this country, a mother already on welfare with kids, should not be having more children. Yet they abuse the system and gain more money by having more kids.

They should be on birth control or receive no money.

An able bodied person that doesn't want to work should rot. (however, I would still buy a bum a sandwich....weird)

Welfare should be there to get a person on their feet but not be their sole mean of income.

I side with Republicans (for the most part) on this issue.

[Tikibonbon]

Federal Taxes, State Taxes, City Taxes.. they all add up.

I get a federal tax refund every year, I don't have to pay state tax, city tax is at a rate of 8.25%. In the end, I pay very little really on tax.

I pay nothing for my private insurance. I pay a $15 dollar co-pay on visits to the doctor. I pay $10 for medication (name brand, not generic). I visit the doctor maybe twice a year, usually to the dentist, so no medication. So basically I pay $30-$50 a year on medical needs, so at most around 25 pounds.

And please read the last paragraph of that quote. I believe it said I wasn't comparing the two. I know you like to pretend to be some kind of alpha male and all, but not really interested in your ability to toss %gdp around. Doesn't make me horny for you.

[vidcc]

@ Tikibonbon.

Both systems have pros and cons. The US system is better if you can afford it...and even people on reasonable wages can find themselves dug into debt because of a serious illness. By better I mean you get a private room with MTV. and depending on your location you may get treated slightly faster for "non life threatening" illnesses. The treatment itself differs not one jot.
The UK system is better because EVERYONE is covered. I believe they have a small fixed co pay for things like dental and eye tests and there is a fixed prescription price...but this is only for people who are actually working and earning over a certain amount. Only people who are working and earn over a certain amount pay the National Insurance and there is an upper limit for what they pay... This is done for less than we pay in the US to just cover about 60 million on Medicaid/care and without paying private insurance, and they can choose whichever doctor they wish...in the US we pay twice...... in the UK nobody has to choose between healthcare or food

The high tax of which you speak for things like gas doesn't just cover healthcare. And the tax take in the UK is comparable to the UK. The idea that we pay less tax is something of a myth depending on personal circumstances..


but this is way off topic.

My apologise J2

[Tikibonbon]

@ vidcc,

As I stated, if you are in a position where you have to choose between seeing a doctor or food, you have noone to blame but yourself. You put yourself there, deal with it. Don't say, well the government should take care of it for me. No, you are an adult. The government is not your mother, and should not hold your hand through life.

There is a moral to the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

If it were up to me, I would do away with all federal medical plans except for the disabled and institutions that deal with them (something no country has perfected or come close). The money could be better spent elsewhere.

[Busyman]

@ vidcc,

As I stated, if you are in a position where you have to choose between seeing a doctor or food, you have noone to blame but yourself. You put yourself there, deal with it. Don't say, well the government should take care of it for me. No, you are an adult. The government is not your mother, and should not hold your hand through life.

There is a moral to the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

If it were up to me, I would do away with all federal medical plans except for the disabled and institutions that deal with them (something no country has perfected or come close). The money could be better spent elsewhere.
Hmmm by that you would think no one gets dicked in this country.

Some folk work their asses off, get laid off, get hurt and can't support their family and pay for medical insurance.

There is plenty of work out there. However, with our country letting new folks in by the ton and spending money for the welfare of other countries, we shit on our own.

I hear this same talk from folk that "are doing fine now" and most of them don't have a clue. There are even some that were fortunate enough to come from very little and still make it that talk down on others without knowing individual circumstances.

A person that just doesn't want to work can't say shit but they ain't the only ones that can't make ends meet.

[vidcc]

@ vidcc,

As I stated, if you are in a position where you have to choose between seeing a doctor or food, you have noone to blame but yourself. You put yourself there, deal with it. Don't say, well the government should take care of it for me. No, you are an adult. The government is not your mother, and should not hold your hand through life.

There is a moral to the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

If it were up to me, I would do away with all federal medical plans except for the disabled and institutions that deal with them (something no country has perfected or come close). The money could be better spent elsewhere.


So let's say that one of those workers that will be made redundant from GM falls ill... did he put himself in that situation? what of those that have their jobs outsourced and our market doesn't have replacement jobs with comparable pay..they take a job on minimum wage with no health coverage...are those people at fault.

What of those that worked hard all their lives to find their pensions have been lost? are they at fault?
What of the people who fall ill and lose their job and with it their health insurance?

what of those with families who have the main bread winner die?

I could go on and on.





I often disagree with people but seldom do I see an opinion so based on ignorance as yours. May hard times never fall on you.

BTW. just how do you get "free" private health insurance.?

[Tikibonbon]

@ vidcc,

As I stated, if you are in a position where you have to choose between seeing a doctor or food, you have noone to blame but yourself. You put yourself there, deal with it. Don't say, well the government should take care of it for me. No, you are an adult. The government is not your mother, and should not hold your hand through life.

There is a moral to the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

If it were up to me, I would do away with all federal medical plans except for the disabled and institutions that deal with them (something no country has perfected or come close). The money could be better spent elsewhere.
Hmmm by that you would think no one gets dicked in this country.

Some folk work their asses off, get laid off, get hurt and can't support their family and pay for medical insurance.

There is plenty of work out there. However, with our country letting new folks in by the ton and spending money for the welfare of other countries, we shit on our own.

I hear this same talk from folk that "are doing fine now" and most of them don't have a clue. There are even some that were fortunate enough to come from very little and still make it that talk down on others without knowing individual circumstances.

A person that just doesn't want to work can't say shit but they ain't the only ones that can't make ends meet.

Busy, I am one of those who came from nothing. Granted I am still only middle class, but I am more than comfortable.

Do you really want me say what I think of the illegal immigration issue?

I am sorry that there are several who are getting "dicked" around, but it ties back to my feelings, if you are an adult who lets yourself get "dicked" around, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Go work the street corner, pay is probably better anyway.

BTW J2 I apologize for being so off topic, I will start a new thread.

As much as I hate to say it, The Nazi scientists were the first to link lung cancer and smoking due to "war" time studies.

[Rat Faced]

Alpha Male? :blink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[GepperRankins]

well i'm thankful that the state can afford the tens of thousands of pounds it's costing to fix my mum's leg. the child support from when i was small and both parents were unemployed. the disability allowance for my mum while she has a frame on. free education. the jobseekers allowance and free healthcare for me :chav:.

when i'm rich :ermm: i won't forget that and as long as that's where the tax goes i'm happy paying it

[JPaul]

well i'm thankful that the state can afford the tens of thousands of pounds it's costing to fix my mum's leg. the child support from when i was small and both parents were unemployed. the disability allowance for my mum while she has a frame on. free education. the jobseekers allowance and free healthcare for me :chav:.

when i'm rich :ermm: i won't forget that and as long as that's where the tax goes i'm happy paying it
It was all a pleasure mate, NP.

You can buy me a pint when your boat comes in :beerchug:

[GepperRankins]

i feel like a bit of a leech after reading that back :mellow:

[JPaul]

i feel like a bit of a leech after reading that back :mellow:
:lol:

Better that than a tax dodger, or an Estate Agent.

[Busyman]

Hmmm by that you would think no one gets dicked in this country.

Some folk work their asses off, get laid off, get hurt and can't support their family and pay for medical insurance.

There is plenty of work out there. However, with our country letting new folks in by the ton and spending money for the welfare of other countries, we shit on our own.

I hear this same talk from folk that "are doing fine now" and most of them don't have a clue. There are even some that were fortunate enough to come from very little and still make it that talk down on others without knowing individual circumstances.

A person that just doesn't want to work can't say shit but they ain't the only ones that can't make ends meet.

Busy, I am one of those who came from nothing. Granted I am still only middle class, but I am more than comfortable.

Do you really want me say what I think of the illegal immigration issue?

I am sorry that there are several who are getting "dicked" around, but it ties back to my feelings, if you are an adult who lets yourself get "dicked" around, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Go work the street corner, pay is probably better anyway.
Sorry to say it but adults do get dicked around due to greed, mismanagement, etc.

You have a slim view of our great country.

I too came from the gutter...to an extent. I also had it better than some to start of with. I had a single mom making ends meet that never went on welfare and I lived in the hood...first in DC then in a worse spot in Maryland.

I am more than comfortable and have taken on a family. However, I am not blind to what fucks up the less than fortunate....just because I'm doing well.

It ain't always their fault.

[bigboab]

Busy, I am one of those who came from nothing. Granted I am still only middle class, but I am more than comfortable.

Do you really want me say what I think of the illegal immigration issue?

I am sorry that there are several who are getting "dicked" around, but it ties back to my feelings, if you are an adult who lets yourself get "dicked" around, I have no sympathy whatsoever. Go work the street corner, pay is probably better anyway.
Sorry to say it but adults do get dicked around due to greed, mismanagement, etc.

You have a slim view of our great country.

I too came from the gutter...to an extent. I also had it better than some to start of with. I had a single mom making ends meet that never went on welfare and I lived in the hood...first in DC then in a worse spot in Maryland.

I am more than comfortable and have taken on a family. However, I am not blind to what fucks up the less than fortunate....just because I'm doing well.

It ain't always their fault.

Well said.:)

[99%]

I have never experienced a war
yet I have experienced an arguement, a fight, a disargreement
i am a small person - if i was bigger maybe i would experience war...