Who The Heck Cares About The Iraqi People?

[hobbes]

Any human is touched by the unmitigated joy of the Iraqi people, who smell the scent of freedom (some for the first time) and are intoxicated.

But don't be lead by your emotions, their happiness is a nice PR victory but does not justify the war. There are lots of dictators, many people are oppressed, censored, and tortured. So who is next? Take a number.

Dubya went into Iraq under the premise that Hussein had WMD and was a direct threat to US security. He also claimed that when the regime was eliminated that the Iraqi people could chose a democratic government of their choice to lead them into the future.

If you think that the liberation of the people of Iraq was a prime motivator please tune into PBS as Sesame Street may be on, right now!


I have yet to see WMD, the future of an Iraqi government is still in doubt, so the justification of the war is still in the balance.

You can see in my other post "the retrospective war" that I demanded concrete physical proof of WMD and I also required that the Iraqi people get to chose their own future, not be given a US puppet government.

So, at this point, the US is justifying its means to the end, which is the same logic given to many historic atrocities. Heck, we could just round up all near sighted people and kill them, and justify it by saying that all future generations will have children with perfect vision. Small price to pay for such a long term benefit.

My point is this: Don't be lead by emotion. The oppressed don't care who liberate them, they are just happy to be free.

Now is the time for the US to reveal the WMD and to exit Iraq in a timely fashion or else this war has just been some chirade to advance the US agenda. If you look around the Middle East, this is what they are concerned about.

Cmon, US, I want us to be the "good guys" in this whole affair!


Did you see those two Iraqi men with the sign that said, "Go home American wankers". The irony is so rich. Nothing happened to them, they were allowed to demonstrate against us. That is the right of the free.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by hobbes@10 April 2003 - 21:26
Any human is touched by the unmitigated joy of the Iraqi people, who smell the scent of freedom (some for the first time) and are intoxicated.

But don't be lead by your emotions, their happiness is a nice PR victory but does not justify the war. There are lots of dictators, many people are oppressed, censored, and tortured. So who is next? Take a number.

Dubya went into Iraq under the premise that Hussein had WMD and was a direct threat to US security. He also claimed that when the regime was eliminated that the Iraqi people could chose a democratic government of their choice to lead them into the future.

If you think that the liberation of the people of Iraq was a prime motivator please tune into PBS as Sesame Street may be on, right now!


I have yet to see WMD, the future of an Iraqi government is still in doubt, so the justification of the war is still in the balance.

You can see in my other post "the retrospective war" that I demanded concrete physical proof of WMD and I also required that the Iraqi people get to chose their own future, not be given a US puppet government.

So, at this point, the US is justifying its means to the end, which is the same logic given to many historic atrocities. Heck, we could just round up all near sighted people and kill them, and justify it by saying that all future generations will have children with perfect vision. Small price to pay for such a long term benefit.

My point is this: Don't be lead by emotion. The oppressed don't care who liberate them, they are just happy to be free.

Now is the time for the US to reveal the WMD and to exit Iraq in a timely fashion or else this war has just been some chirade to advance the US agenda. If you look around the Middle East, this is what they are concerned about.

Cmon, US, I want us to be the "good guys" in this whole affair!


Did you see those two Iraqi men with the sign that said, "Go home American wankers". The irony is so rich. Nothing happened to them, they were allowed to demonstrate against us. That is the right of the free.
No-one has replied to this post yet?

I guess they all took your advice and turned on PBS.

I always did like Sesame Street.

Peace dude

[kAb]

sorry, i didn't see this :rolleyes:

first of all, i hope the U.S. is courageous enough to take on the task of liberating all humans under dicator oppression.

Second, considering how we are still taking control of baghdad, do you think that there is ample time to search for the weapons?

Most of the weapons are probably in underground undisclosed bunkers. These could take months to find.

Actually bush should have used the motivator of liberating the iraqi people more. It wasn't used very much at all.

What is scary now, is that they discovered that the anthrax made was proabably made by easy to obtain materials, and not much experience was needed to create the anthrax. Saddam could easily make anthrax.

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 April 2003 - 03:26
There are lots of dictators, many people are oppressed, censored, and tortured. So who is next? Take a number.
Okay, I am only refering to one part of the whole quote.

Yeah, there are a lot of dictators, but not like Sadam.

I think it is safe to say that just letting the Iraqi situation alone would only make things worse for the Iraqi people. The Sadam regime wasn't going to fade away, or just "go away", if everyone ignored it. There were many people in the regime to fill Sadam's shoes, for the future. Trust me, if it took 3 weeks for the best and most powerful armed forces in the world to free Irag, then the powerless people of Iraq had no chance to overcome Sadam and his thugs.

As the Sadam story unfolds, the truth is revealed. There are hundreds of horror stories we hear, and wonder how true they are, but even if one of them is true, that makes Sadam an evil dictator. He is up there in the ranks of Stalin and Hitler. The "people' couldn't get rid of those leaders, it took wars to get rid of them.


I can go on with this topic till the end of time, so I'll end here for now. Let somebody with my same opinion add to it.

[MagicNakor]

I don't believe Stalin was "rid of" by means of war. Unless I'm recalling incorrectly, he died in office.

Thousands of people turned out to see his funeral procession. Not all may have liked him, but he was their leader, and many were genuinely distraught to see him dead. The cult of the personality at its finest.

:ninja:

Edit: clarification.

[kAb]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@13 April 2003 - 03:02
I don't believe Stalin was "rid of" by means of war. Unless I'm recalling incorrectly, he died in office.

Thousands of people turned out to see his funeral procession. Not all may have liked him, but he was their leader, and many were genuinely distraught to see him dead. The cult of the personality at its finest.

:ninja:

Edit: clarification.
he did die in his office. of a stroke. people were so scared to bother him that he layed there helpless for hours until he died.

[ne1GotZardoz]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@13 April 2003 - 06:02
Thousands of people turned out to see his funeral procession. Not all may have liked him, but he was their leader, and many were genuinely distraught to see him dead. The cult of the personality at its finest.
You know, those thousands may not have come to see him out of respect of his office, power and authority.

They may have come to see him to satisfy their minds that he was dead.

I expect that in Iraq also.

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by kAb@13 April 2003 - 20:08
he did die in his office. of a stroke. people were so scared to bother him that he layed there helpless for hours until he died.
Assuming you don't consider the many theories of his death, such as murder. ;)

Edit: spelling.

:ninja:

[DiogenesUK]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@13 April 2003 - 12:02
The cult of the personality at its finest.


Oh yeah,and now we have the cult of no personality,ie.Bush & his little band of festering middle-aged fascists.

As they say,every population gets the government it deserves,so presumably Americans found themselves ready to be governed by a nasty little arms dealer....dozens of individuals too sh*t scared to go and live in their own homeland,and an ex wrestler....hahahahaha.

Just as you sow,so shall you reap.

I read a very pertinent post on these forums yesterday referring to a huge barbed wire fence being erected all around the states to keep people out,well,if I were you I'd start putting it up now,'cos 9/11 was,I suspect,the first pinprick in what may become extremely unpleasant for the yanks over the next few years.

Hey,I've heard that Russia & China have weapons of mass destruction,who's for a go at them?...Please form an orderly queue to sign up,you may even get your 15 minutes of fame !!!

[MagicNakor]

Originally posted by ne1GotZardoz@13 April 2003 - 21:37
You know, those thousands may not have come to see him out of respect of his office, power and authority.

They may have come to see him to satisfy their minds that he was dead.

I expect that in Iraq also.
Some may have. Most didn't. You can't fake the grief you see on most of the faces at Stalin's funeral.

:ninja:

[longterm]

I'll try and keep it short and sweet.....I'll try.....
The American people, among which I number, are facing their greatest threat from within their own country at a time when all the smoke and mirrors have contrived to focus all the attention on the rest of the world.
Now that the war is "close to being over", our gaze cannot be allowed to rest upon Bush and his careless disregard for the majority in the USA, which affects the rest of the world.
So he'll need another distraction.
Something as big as 9/11?
I doubt it. But there WILL have to be something.
A safe America is not a blinded America. Bush needs us blinded. Very blinded.
I am certain of this, which makes me sad.
Department of Homeland Security MUST HAVE A REASON FOR BEING. There MUST be a reason for fear in America, and it can't be from white guys. (Anyone seen Congress and Senate lately?) And this is being written by...a white guy!
By the way, how do you spell the Carlisle Group? Is it Carlyle? Carlysle?
You know. The one George Bush's FATHER is connected to?
You know. The group that handles the "bin Laden" fortune?
Please. A coincidence! A coincidence! "Shhh!"
Please ignore the oil pipeline plans from 8 or 9 months ago in Afghanistan, and the Bush connection there.
Coincidence! Pure coincidence! "Shhh!"
Please ignore the trivial freedoms your naive forefathers died for, America. Terror is about to run amok!
You want us to "protect" you don't you? Well, if we can't WATCH you, how can we "protect" you? If we don't gather sensitive material in the form of a "New-Improved_Census" system, how will we know "exactly" where you are?
Ah, yes.
An era of peace. (Inhale.....)
An era of trust. (Exhale.....)
An era of truth. (Inhale.....)
An era of prosperity. (Exhale.....)
An era of freedom for all mankind. (Inhale.....try not to choke.)
Not with Corporate Citizenship a viable entity. :unsure:
Not with Totalitarian actions taken by an American President. :huh:
Not with lies..... :(
Not with death...... :angry:
Not with lies..... :(
Not with death...... :angry:
Not anytime soon, which is so, so , so sad, :unsure: :unsure: for all the children living in America and the world. Especially the ones who think they got educated.
EDUCATE. LOVE. LAUGH. LIFE.
You can't educate with lies...
You can't educate with death...
You can terrorize...
But that is not living.
Shame on you, Mr. President Bush.
Shame on you, for such callous disregard.
For such...blatant inhumanity...against your own people.
You know damned well what I refer to.
I wish I believed in Hell. Would it be worth it then, Mr. Bush? Just think for a minute or two.
Would it really be worth it...if there was a hell?
And if you've got a problem with my opinion, then talk with me.
Prove me wrong. Show me the proof. Prove me wrong.
I've been waiting......and waiting......and waiting......


"And I see the dust of humanity, rising up to choke the life
from those whose only crime, was believing and trusting their leaders."

[kAb]

Originally posted by longterm@14 April 2003 - 20:43
I'll try and keep it short and sweet.....I'll try.....
The American people, among which I number, are facing their greatest threat from within their own country at a time when all the smoke and mirrors have contrived to focus all the attention on the rest of the world.
Now that the war is "close to being over", our gaze cannot be allowed to rest upon Bush and his careless disregard for the majority in the USA, which affects the rest of the world.
So he'll need another distraction.
Something as big as 9/11?
I doubt it. But there WILL have to be something.
A safe America is not a blinded America. Bush needs us blinded. Very blinded.
I am certain of this, which makes me sad.
Department of Homeland Security MUST HAVE A REASON FOR BEING. There MUST be a reason for fear in America, and it can't be from white guys. (Anyone seen Congress and Senate lately?) And this is being written by...a white guy!
By the way, how do you spell the Carlisle Group? Is it Carlyle? Carlysle?
You know. The one George Bush's FATHER is connected to?
You know. The group that handles the "bin Laden" fortune?
Please. A coincidence! A coincidence! "Shhh!"
Please ignore the oil pipeline plans from 8 or 9 months ago in Afghanistan, and the Bush connection there.
Coincidence! Pure coincidence! "Shhh!"
Please ignore the trivial freedoms your naive forefathers died for, America. Terror is about to run amok!
You want us to "protect" you don't you? Well, if we can't WATCH you, how can we "protect" you? If we don't gather sensitive material in the form of a "New-Improved_Census" system, how will we know "exactly" where you are?
Ah, yes.
An era of peace. (Inhale.....)
An era of trust. (Exhale.....)
An era of truth. (Inhale.....)
An era of prosperity. (Exhale.....)
An era of freedom for all mankind. (Inhale.....try not to choke.)
Not with Corporate Citizenship a viable entity. :unsure:
Not with Totalitarian actions taken by an American President. :huh:
Not with lies..... :(
Not with death...... :angry:
Not with lies..... :(
Not with death...... :angry:
Not anytime soon, which is so, so , so sad, :unsure: :unsure: for all the children living in America and the world. Especially the ones who think they got educated.
EDUCATE. LOVE. LAUGH. LIFE.
You can't educate with lies...
You can't educate with death...
You can terrorize...
But that is not living.
Shame on you, Mr. President Bush.
Shame on you, for such callous disregard.
For such...blatant inhumanity...against your own people.
You know damned well what I refer to.
I wish I believed in Hell. Would it be worth it then, Mr. Bush? Just think for a minute or two.
Would it really be worth it...if there was a hell?
And if you've got a problem with my opinion, then talk with me.
Prove me wrong. Show me the proof. Prove me wrong.
I've been waiting......and waiting......and waiting......


"And I see the dust of humanity, rising up to choke the life
from those whose only crime, was believing and trusting their leaders."
i was going to reply constructively to this, but i decided it would be a waste of time.

so here it is:

You're a moron, you are anti-establishment and everything else. You need to read up on current events a little more, and really think hard about whether you would like to die in a terrorist attack? what if your whole family was killed and you had to see them die. what if you died?

but you can think whatever you want (damn liberals), god bless american freedom.

[hobbes]

KAB,

Sometimes non-response is the the only approriate response.

I refused to wade through his vagarities and insinuations.

Just say it!

Don't toss out a bunch of loosely connected comments and say "hmmm, think about it".

What is the bottom line, you seem to suggest that Bush wants to suppress American freedom under the ruse of "Homeland Security"and become some sort of dictator.

It makes no sense.

You create a crime for which there is no motive and for which you have no evidence.

Stop blowing paranoid smoke and post something articulate.

[trippy_hippy]

longterm,

I completely agree with everything you said.

Almost everyone I know feels that Bush is keeping his own people blinded. Feed them enough patriot america, brain wash them with well fed propogander, don't let them see what's really going on. The man most definately has a whole other agenda for this war.

I also believe (tho I heartfuly wish that I didn't) that the horrors of 9/11 ahve given him the perfect excuse for activites he was already planning. Like you said the coincidences are just too much and his justification is becoming ever weaker!

I was sent a very scary email the other day (tho I've not had chance yet to find out more) saying that Bush's main reason for this war is to do with financil power over oil dollars and global economic leadership.

America has had the monopoly on oil trade until Iraq recently started selling its oil in euros, thus weakening the dollar and strengthening the euro. This wouldn't be so bad but Iran and Venezuela (the 4th largest oil producer) has started to consider switching to trading in euros also, which was created to go head to head with the dollar for economic power.

At present america relys on oil dollars for international trade instead of real hard currency, everyone uses oil dollar cheques for trade, these cheques just keep going round and round and so long as they remain in trade circulation they never hit the bank. If countries start trading in euros, some of those oil cheques will no longer be needed and countries are going to want to cash them in.

The report claims that if this happens, and dollarrs are no longer as widely use, and people want to cash them in, the world will discover that America has been generating money it hasn't got. it has kept printing money without having the actual capital to back it up. Apparently America has been falsely trading in oil dollars in the (wrongly) supposed knowledge that the dollars will never be cashed in because the dollar is the only real trading currancy and everyone will just keep buying and selling using oil dollar cheques.

If the dollar was to be knocked off it's dominant pedistal then the underlying debt is supposed to be so large that it could leave America in a worse position than Indonesia when it imploded economically a few years ago, or even more recently, that of Argentina, owing US$12,000 for every one of it's 280 million people.

Now if thats not enough reason for Bush to go off on a seemingly pointless war then I don't know what is :unsure:

If this is all true, then to me it explains all the inconsistensies in Bush's reasoning, Europes complete refusal to get invoved, and the UK's puppet like support. If the US $ collapse's then so too will our £, as we have not yet joined the euro and still rely heavily on trade with America.


I'm not saying that I fully beleive these claims, but they certainly make a convincing argument.

I don;t think the allied forces have any right to do what they are doing, but at least this might help to explain why they are doing it.

I really would love to know what other people think of this theory, or if anyone else has heard it too.

[hobbes]

Economists and their theories, jump from suppostion to suppostion like fairies from cloud to cloud.

Seems to me you have a certain spin, and this is what you want to see. You remind me of Scooby Doo using a knife to cut fog into the shape of a doughnut, which he then eats. Yummy!, he exclaims.

Do I sit here with a flag up my ass, swallowing Georges every word like ambrosia? No.

He declared that Iraq is a threat to the US, he claims that it has WMD- he needs to prove it. Otherwise, he has lost all credibility.

How convenient for you that only the UK and US will suffer if the dollar collapses. What about the 40 or so other countries giving support, including Spain and Portugal. They worried about the dollar?

The French and Russians are opposed because we are going to start pulling out their technologyand equipment, which was sold illegally to Iraq. Why assist in breaking open the closet only to disclose that the Penthouse magazines inside bear your DNA.

You want my evil spin. I am concerned that George planned to invade Iraq regardless. He wanted to help eliminate that less than satisfying taste in our mouths after that episode with Bin Laden. All we did was aerate the soil in Afganistan and turn a terrorist into a mythical figure (some people think Pancho Villa is still alive, simply because his body was never found).

What did you mean when said that we continue to print money but don't have the capital to back it up? That is a nonsensical statement. We left the gold standard long ago. Money today is only backed by trust, period.

[j2k4]

Hobbes-
You have my sympathy; preaching to the unreconstructable. "Forge on, tho not in vain, as ye soweth reason to fools......" :D

[protak]

Originally posted by j2k4@16 April 2003 - 23:17
Hobbes-
You have my sympathy; preaching to the unreconstructable. "Forge on, tho not in vain, as ye soweth reason to fools......" :D
Forge on Hobbes, you have a long journey ahead, do not be discouraged by the inept..... :frusty: ;)

[MagicNakor]

Goodness. If Hobbes hasn't started forging by now, he'd better get those bunny legs pumping the bellows.

:ninja:

[j2k4]

Good Lord.

What have the two of you been doing, plumbing the salvage bin? :lol:

We are still sowing reason to fools, aren't we? :(

Seems I came up with a good line for naught. ;)

[chalice]

Originally posted by j2k4@18 June 2004 - 10:26
Good Lord.

What have the two of you been doing, plumbing the salvage bin? :lol:

We are still sowing reason to fools, aren't we? :(

Seems I came up with a good line for naught. ;)
A veritable resurrection.

Night Of The Living Thread.

[MagicNakor]

I don't practice necromancy. You've protak to thank for that. I'm just guilty of punnage. ;)

(Which, all things considered, is probably the worse crime, but fortunately my pun was relatively weak.)

:ninja:

[j2k4]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@18 June 2004 - 05:21
I don't practice necromancy. You've protak to thank for that. I'm just guilty of punnage. ;)

(Which, all things considered, is probably the worse crime, but fortunately my pun was relatively weak.)

:ninja:
Get thee to a Punnery!

[j2k4]

Originally posted by chalice+18 June 2004 - 04:28--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 18 June 2004 - 04:28)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@18 June 2004 - 10:26
Good Lord.

What have the two of you been doing, plumbing the salvage bin? :lol:

We are still sowing reason to fools, aren&#39;t we? :(

Seems I came up with a good line for naught. ;)
A veritable resurrection.

Night Of The Living Thread. [/b][/quote]
Good one, that. :)

[Biggles]

Originally posted by hobbes@11 April 2003 - 02:34



Did you see those two Iraqi men with the sign that said, "Go home American wankers". The irony is so rich. Nothing happened to them, they were allowed to demonstrate against us. That is the right of the free.
Hobbes

If they had done that when Saddam was in power I am sure they would have come to no harm.






In fact Saddam would have probably paid them to do it. :)

[protak]

Originally posted by MagicNakor@18 June 2004 - 06:21
I don&#39;t practice necromancy. You&#39;ve protak to thank for that. I&#39;m just guilty of punnage. ;)

(Which, all things considered, is probably the worse crime, but fortunately my pun was relatively weak.)

:ninja:
Necromancy is practised with magic...... :P
Although I thought the pun was quit fun... :lol:
Tim :)