The London Bombers have been ID'ed...

[bigboab]

I think getting rid of the clerics who preach hate would be a start. When I say get rid, I mean deport them if applicable or charge them with treason or some other charge that would put them away for a while. Providing they were guilty of course.

Cherie could make a few pennies out of defending them.:cool:

[Rat Faced]

Immigration and Citizenship?

Thought they were homegrown from Yorkshire.. how would changing the immigration rules or citizenship rules have changed anything? Apart from forcing a further wedge between communities and creating even more potential idiots?

I already reported that the Met have stated that they suspect as many as 3000 brits that are now sympathetic with the fundamentalists, that werent prior to the invasion of Iraq.

That suggests a change in Foreign Policy would be more in order to me...

[Biggles]

There are one or two things that have fallen out of this. The problem appears to be amongst prosperous, well educated, British, disaffected youth rather than outsiders. Immigration and ID cards would be useless.

The cameras are useful and and they have been instrumental in helping pinpoint a lot of criminals. Also useful has been the willingness of the Muslim community to assist the police.

There is little that can be done to stop hitherto model citizens strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up ... other than the community they spring from being vigilant and heading them off at the pass; returning them to the path of sanity before anything untoward happens.

[Peerzy]

Something that bothered me was that before we even knew it was a suicide bombing the Media (TV % Newspapers) were all focusing on the Mulsim community. As soon as they heard it was suicide bombers suddenly it was hunt down muslim leaders and get them on camera/in the papers and see what they have to say.

Who made up the great rule that terrorists and bombers have to be mulsim :huh: . With the media having no infomation apart from the fact that they were suicide bombers (before they were id'ed this is) they start guessing which Muslim terrorist cell had done this.

Whats stopping me, a white male blowing myself up, why does everybody automatically think the people are typical pakistani (sp?) fanatical (sp?) muslims?

[JPaul]

I already reported that the Met have stated that they suspect as many as 3000 brits that are now sympathetic with the fundamentalists, that werent prior to the invasion of Iraq.

That suggests a change in Foreign Policy would be more in order to me...
That would be correct if you also accept that murderers should dictate foreign policy.

I don't.

[JPaul]

Something that bothered me was that before we even knew it was a suicide bombing the Media (TV % Newspapers) were all focusing on the Mulsim community. As soon as they heard it was suicide bombers suddenly it was hunt down muslim leaders and get them on camera/in the papers and see what they have to say.

Who made up the great rule that terrorists and bombers have to be mulsim :huh: . With the media having no infomation apart from the fact that they were suicide bombers (before they were id'ed this is) they start guessing which Muslim terrorist cell had done this.

Whats stopping me, a white male blowing myself up, why does everybody automatically think the people are typical pakistani (sp?) fanatical (sp?) muslims?

It's known as profiling and it is very accurate in the vast majority of cases.

That allied to a knowledge of who is currently active (which decent investigative reporters will have) points them towards the most likely culprits.

[vidcc]

@preezy

I think the main fact of current affairs made a Middle East based attack the most likely. Had it happened 5 or 10 years ago I am sure the press would be aiming at someone of Irish identity.

I agree fully that those of Muslim faith are unfairly lumped in with the bombers and are probably being asked to apologise for the acts of people with whom they have no connection other than sharing the same religion.
I didn't see the media homing in on the evangelicals here when the unabomber was blowing up abortion clinics and gay clubs.
The Suicide bombing tactic was one borrowed from the Tamil Tigers and to date the tigers have more such acts under their belt. It is a tactic taken up by many Middle Eastern groups and not by your general white bomber who doesn't see any personal gain in killing him/herself for whatever reason.

@ J2

rat posted already that these people were born in the UK so immigration isn't directly linked to these people. It may be though if they have been "influenced" by immigrants.
I believe strongly that a nation has the right to know who is on their land and if they are up to no good. So if someone wishes to permanently live in a country in which they were not born they should have to accept certain limits to their freedoms that a native does not.
This however can be hard to do if the native is not prepared to accept some limits as well. Take background checks at firearm shows for example... how can we find out if munitions are being purchased illegally if we don't check everyone?

Sad as it is I don't think we can ever eliminate terrorism. We can reduce the risk but it is not just about tightening boarders. We need to tackle the issues that spawn the acts in the first place.... and I feel that may certainly for us be the most unpalatable thing to do

[Peerzy]

Something that bothered me was that before we even knew it was a suicide bombing the Media (TV % Newspapers) were all focusing on the Mulsim community. As soon as they heard it was suicide bombers suddenly it was hunt down muslim leaders and get them on camera/in the papers and see what they have to say.

Who made up the great rule that terrorists and bombers have to be mulsim :huh: . With the media having no infomation apart from the fact that they were suicide bombers (before they were id'ed this is) they start guessing which Muslim terrorist cell had done this.

Whats stopping me, a white male blowing myself up, why does everybody automatically think the people are typical pakistani (sp?) fanatical (sp?) muslims?

It's known as profiling and it is very accurate in the vast majority of cases.

That allied to a knowledge of who is currently active (which decent investigative reporters will have) points them towards the most likely culprits.


Yes, most likley. However there was no proof at the time who it was, so isn't profiling and saying it was an attacking from a middle eastern muslim based country just being harsh.

[Rat Faced]

In addition, they didnt know it was suicide bombers and the authorities were put on alert in March this year that the IRA (or another Irish Republican faction) were going to target mainland Britain this year.

The only thing i can think of is that there was no warning.

The IRA usually do this for large scale attacks.

They also rarely organise a number of bombs to go off simultaneously.

[Rat Faced]

I already reported that the Met have stated that they suspect as many as 3000 brits that are now sympathetic with the fundamentalists, that werent prior to the invasion of Iraq.

That suggests a change in Foreign Policy would be more in order to me...
That would be correct if you also accept that murderers should dictate foreign policy.

I don't.

Neither do I.

However like the Spanish, there is already a strong movement to change the foreign policy in the UK. So it would be difficult to see what influence such tactics would have.

The scared will join the movement to change, however some in the movement to change will now decide they have to see things through.. status quo is thus achieved,

[JPaul]

Profiling is standard practice in the investigation of any crime, it is a remarkably useful tool. Rather than just looking at the community as a whole it allows the authorities to focus on specific areas.

The fact of the matter is that these attacks, the co-ordination, the lack of warning had the hallmarks of certain groups. It was therefore natural for the Police to look in those areas, whilst the forensics were ongoing.

In my mind they almost certainly already knew of these people and had intelligence on them, how else do you think they were identified so quickly.

So if you then look at the active groups you are aware of and find out that certain people are missing (feck one was reported as missing in London by his family) you have a very good idea who was responsible. So you focus even tighter and find that these chaps travelled to London on the day and that they were carrying rucksacks and they were in the places at the times.

RF - I think that this will make change less likely, or at least slow it. We wouldn't want them to think that their actions had achieved what they sought to achieve. Which I am not entirely clear on anyway. Could someone enlighten me, what is this actually supposed to achieve. Has there been some sort of statment " We are murdering people because .... so if you .... we will stop."

[Barbarossa]

RF - I think that this will make change less likely, or at least slow it. We wouldn't want them to think that their actions had achieved what they sought to achieve. Which I am not entirely clear on anyway. Could someone enlighten me, what is this actually supposed to achieve. Has there been some sort of statment " We are murdering people because .... so if you .... we will stop."

I haven't heard of any link yet between these 4 guys, and either of the 2(?) Islamic websites that claimed responsibility last thursday. I guess that's one of the things the on-going investigation is trying to find out..

[JPaul]

RF - I think that this will make change less likely, or at least slow it. We wouldn't want them to think that their actions had achieved what they sought to achieve. Which I am not entirely clear on anyway. Could someone enlighten me, what is this actually supposed to achieve. Has there been some sort of statment " We are murdering people because .... so if you .... we will stop."

I haven't heard of any link yet between these 4 guys, and either of the 2(?) Islamic websites that claimed responsibility last thursday. I guess that's one of the things the on-going investigation is trying to find out..
Indeed.

To find out who else was involved.

Apparently there has been an arrest in Egypt. A man who studied chemistry in the Leeds area. He also rented a flat to one of the murderers. I think he may have been in the area (Leeds) recently, tho' I have only heard sketchy reports.

[vidcc]

I misunderstood the broadcast; my impression was that emigres were involved-I was not aware they were native-born.

One wonders, though, whence came the influences which swayed them...

That is why I made the point about it being possible that influence of nationals comes from immigrants as a connection to immigration and your thread.


I disagree somewhat.

A short while ago, I listened to Tom Friedman (whom I find a bit misguided but sincere and occasionally insightful) utter the most succinct summation of the current situation that I have heard-I will try to get this as close as possible:

"For many decades, our foreign policy vis a vis the mideast was simple-keep the oil flowing, and at a reasonable price, be nice to the Israelis, we will prop up tin-pot dictators like Saddam, ignore the excesses of the Shah, AND, we will overlook what goes on 'out back'.

This went on, frustrations built, and on 9/11, what went on 'out back' finally came back and bit us on the ass."

We have now, for better or worse, depending on who you believe, decided the more prudent course is to provide the stewardship which was absent from our previous policy; we will foment as genuine a version of democracy as the natives can muster, and we will no longer take the easy route of supporting the first strong-man to come down the pike.

The other issues remain integral to our foreign policy.

As can easily be seen, the price to be paid in order that we may support democracy is (in the short-run, at least) higher in terms of lives and money.



This is only roughly descriptive; but I am short on time, for which oversight I apologize..

We seem to have changed foreign policy to a degree but I would charge that the method is as important as the deed (if that makes sense)

bringing about democracy is indeed something good...doing it by force may not be the best way to achieve it and as we can see may be creating as many problems as it solves. There are many things we haven't changed . We support oppressive regimes because it is in our own interests.
In the Israel situation instead of being neutral we still favour a definite side. Interference no matter how well intentioned can be resented. The USA would never stand for interference from outside, why would one assume everyone else would embrace it.

We do indeed need to stop propping up dictators and ignoring the "background", however Instead of stewardship at the end of a gun I feel that allowing them to be masters of their own destiny would remove many "terrorist dangers" from US.


To focus on "the issues which spawn the acts" is closing the barn door after the nag has taken her leave, or, in a way, reminiscent of latent guilt over slavery; too little, too late, and a total waste of time.
Are you saying that we should just continue without addressing those issues?
To use the word "focus" would seem that you think that is all i am saying we need to do, which is not the case at all...it is one of the things we need to do...better late than never.
I know that there are some here that absolutely refuse to think that we did anything wrong and that to change the way we do things would be to "give in to terrorists"...I see it as preventative medicine against future attacks.
As with your post this is but a tiny fraction of the issue

[JPaul]

Democracy may indeed be good, I certainly think so, but not all people choose it.

[vidcc]

Democracy may indeed be good, I certainly think so, but not all people choose it.

I agree and although I didn't say this directly I did say I favour people being masters of their own destiny, removing the issue of us deciding the direction they should take.

Edit:
This doesn't mean we should ignore genocide