We'll see what happens now; there are rumors of some ragged cheering across Iraq, but the Sunnis seem to be upset...:dabs:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227574,00.html
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We'll see what happens now; there are rumors of some ragged cheering across Iraq, but the Sunnis seem to be upset...:dabs:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227574,00.html
Why make him a martyr? Return him to power and get our troops out.:) It would take him the rest of his life, even with his record of cruelty, to catch up on the carnage since he was 'toppled'.
'Bout time... shoulda killed him when they first found him.. saved all this bullshit he was arguing about.
While I disagree about the relative "carnage", it would be interesting if we, say, turned him over to the U.N. or the World Court and let them return him to power-that way we could escape the Catch-22 of having empowered him to begin with, as well as the blame for having removed him...:whistlingQuote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
As to the question of martyrdom, if he is hung by the very Iraqis he oppressed, I think his being a martyr goes by the boards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
While I disagree about the relative "carnage", it would be interesting if we, say, turned him over to the U.N. or the World Court and let them return him to power-that way we could escape the Catch-22 of having empowered him to begin with, as well as the blame for having removed him...:whistling
As to the question of martyrdom, if he is hung by the very Iraqis he oppressed, I think his being a martyr goes by the boards.
At least 655,000 dead. That is carnage in anyones language. I dont think Saddams record would come anywhere near that. Not that I condone any of it.
Rafi, it is not that many years since he was a 'friend', when he was at war with Iran.
I must agree. Of course there will be shouts that America set up a kangaroo court....which would be bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4As to the question of martyrdom, if he is hung by the very Iraqis he oppressed, I think his being a martyr goes by the boards.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
He's a martyr for what? He shirley wasn't some jihadist that died in battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
That figure is certainly open to debate, but that is not my intent; any loss of life is to be regretted.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
There is currently, however, an felt imperative to inflate such figures, and, where Saddam is concerned, a great deal of anecdotal evidence of a gray quality owing to his efforts to hide or suppress it.
The fact is, we may never know that particular truth, and, when comes time to properly attribute coincidental/non-combatant deaths, the insurgents efforts will never be accurately recognized.
Besides which, they are to be excused for their actions, an account they have a note from Allah, and blame for their actions accrues to the coalition by default. :whistling
I can't say I feel any sympathy for him, he probably deserves to be hanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I'm not sure that it would cause any noticeable escalation in the violence over the present rising, but to the Sunni's at least he would indeed be a martyr.
It is questionable now that the Iraqi's are better off without him. For sure the Kurds are and that is no bad thing, but the rest of Iraq is suffering. The suffering is at their own hands, not the Americans, but I feel that our presence is fueling things.
The rest of the world was probably better off with him still in power.
Just seen the thing on the news. one thing that might make the sentence resonate beyond Iraq. He had the Quran with him and made the "God is great" chant.
I wonder if this will mean anything at all. After all he ruled in a secular way.
I was wondering how the members who disagreed with capital punishment feel about Saddams sentence.
Funny how Hirohito was allowed to live after WWII.:whistling
Just stirring it.:lol:
That was all MacArthur's idea; he thought it would humanize Hirohito to the Japanese hoi polloi and make them more amenable to his plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I don't hold any brief for executing Saddam, but hey, give the Iraqis what they want, it's fine with me. ;)
It's strange that, following delay after interminable delay they suddenly come up with a verdict and judgement with hardly a pause for breath.
Anyone would think there was an election in the offing.
I am against death penalty.
If only we had some Iraqi opinions.
The Japanese refused to surrender unless their Emperor was not put on trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4That was all MacArthur's idea; he thought it would humanize Hirohito to the Japanese hoi polloi and make them more amenable to his plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I don't hold any brief for executing Saddam, but hey, give the Iraqis what they want, it's fine with me. ;)
Nothing to do with McArthur, except ceding to their request. Do not argue J2, I dont want to start digging out my diaries.:lol:
No, upon further reflection, you are as correct as I am...as I recall, Eisenhower wanted to keel-haul Hirohito, but MacArthur decided to grant the Japanese wish to secure 1) their cooperation, and 2) to demystify Hirohito over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboabThe Japanese refused to surrender unless their Emperor was not put on trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Nothing to do with McArthur, except ceding to their request. Do not argue J2, I dont want to start digging out my diaries.:lol:
And, as you know, MacArthur loved to jab Ike.
Some "mortal" statements were elicited from Hirohito for public consumption subsequently, I believe...my memory is a tad hazy, as MacArthur was a terribly dense subject...he was so terribly self-absorbed, you know. :huh:
A wee bit off thread.:) I have seen Eisenhower twice. He was staying at Culzean Castle in Scotland. My elder brothers worked in the Culzean Estate and did the 'beating' for him when he was out shooting. We have a photo somewhere in the family with his autograph. I was at school at nearby Maybole and we were 'trooped' down to the local town hall to see him receive the Freedom Of The Town. He never mentioned to me that he knew you.:whistlingQuote:
Originally Posted by j2k4No, upon further reflection, you are as correct as I am...as I recall, Eisenhower wanted to keel-haul Hirohito, but MacArthur decided to grant the Japanese wish to secure 1) their cooperation, and 2) to demystify Hirohito over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
And, as you know, MacArthur loved to jab Ike.
Some "mortal" statements were elicited from Hirohito for public consumption subsequently, I believe...my memory is a tad hazy, as MacArthur was a terribly dense subject...he was so terribly self-absorbed, you know. :huh:
As I said before, if the Repubs win then it's a fixed election.Quote:
Originally Posted by lynx
It would basically tell the Republicans that they can do fuck all wrong and still stay in office.
Government sanctioned killing in order to emphasize that killing is wrong seems contradictory to me.
Funny; it's always been that way, too. :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsok
Isn't that something.
Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboabA wee bit off thread.:) I have seen Eisenhower twice. He was staying at Culzean Castle in Scotland. My elder brothers worked in the Culzean Estate and did the 'beating' for him when he was out shooting. We have a photo somewhere in the family with his autograph. I was at school at nearby Maybole and we were 'trooped' down to the local town hall to see him receive the Freedom Of The Town. He never mentioned to me that he knew you.:whistlingQuote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I am merely old enough to have seen him, had he seen fit to present himself properly, as all the others did. :)
As an American, I can only hope you don't think so ill of us as to toss out his picture in disgust.
A great General, a mediocre president; our Bill Clinton, but without the sex and sloppy security.
And without Hillary, too, though Mamie was a bit of a handful, or so I've heard. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4Funny; it's always been that way, too. :huh:Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsok
Isn't that something.
I must be thick, is that sarcasm?
As to your presenting thickness, I have no idea, as I am not at all familiar with you and have only your post to judge you by.Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsokQuote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I must be thick, is that sarcasm?
I will leave that to you for now, though if you stay and continue to post, I could work something up rather soonish, I expect.
It was indeed sarcasm, but of an intentionally mild variety.
I'm going to guess you will soon loathe me, for I am almost certainly of a differing stripe.
Sorry to be banging on, you must be itching to have a poke at me, I'm being so rude. :dabs:
Nope, no urge to poke. Not sure what something being a certain way for a length of time has to do with executing someone, however.
I'm really quite surprised that our government, which is supposed to be anti-capital punishment, has welcomed the verdict :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
This stance is obviously designed to convince the Arab world that they are in charge of their own affairs. Whether it will work or not, who can say.
Don't try and drag the Australians into this... :whistlingQuote:
Originally Posted by busyman
Well, as Barbie points out, I believe the aim of this particular exercise is to give the Iraqi people a nice taste of self-determination, and the opportunity to lance the boil that is Saddam is at least mildly inviting.Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsok
Best to leave them to their own devices in this case; we can coach them on capital punishment down the line somewhere.
Or not, it should really be up to them, don't you think?
Definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4Well, as Barbie points out, I believe the aim of this particular exercise is to give the Iraqi people a nice taste of self-determination, and the opportunity to lance the boil that is Saddam is at least mildly inviting.Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsok
Best to leave them to their own devices in this case; we can coach them on capital punishment down the line somewhere.
Or not, it should really be up to them, don't you think?
It's just strange to hear the UK government condoning a death sentence.
If they begin now, there is just time to slip in a trial of Bush and Rumsfield, in Irak...before the next Presidential elections...
Do you know why the sunnis are upset? I guess not so i'll explain. Basically there are many sects in Islam and Sunni and Shiites are the biggest sects. 90% of muslims are sunnis and like 9.1% are Shittes and there are 72 sects in all.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The story goes like this....when the prophet muhammad (pbuh) passed away some people said that only the prophets main family could become leader but some said that any pious muslim could become leader. This is where the big split occurs. Hey what can i say the religious studies lessons pay off.:lol: Although there is a bit more to the split but cannot be bothered going into detail but all i can say it is about their approach to the religion Islam. In a sense it is like how the catholics tend to be more strict in their approach to religion but the protestants are not. The protestants generally believe in the baptism and Eucharist ceremony i think...but to a Catholic all 7 sacrements are important!!
Edit:- Saddam claimed to be a sunni and killed many Shittes and thats why there are some that are happy and mainly Sunnis are not happy.
It should absolutely be up to them, no question. However, if one considers the likelyhood that much of the violence in that country is fuelled by revenge, executing, while perhaps satisfying to many, in some ways legitimizes a revenge mentality, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4Well, as Barbie points out, I believe the aim of this particular exercise is to give the Iraqi people a nice taste of self-determination, and the opportunity to lance the boil that is Saddam is at least mildly inviting.Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsok
Best to leave them to their own devices in this case; we can coach them on capital punishment down the line somewhere.
Or not, it should really be up to them, don't you think?
Many would agree that Saddam's regime represented Sunnis (though many might also argue that Saddam himself wasn't actually Sunni, simply Ba'athist) and was terribly opressive to the Shia majority (and Kurds also, of course). Now we have mostly Shias in charge. That's not a bad thing. But I think executing Saddam may just be seen as retribution by one side and will simply add to the sad, sick cycle of violence in that country.
Let the government lead by example. Let him rot in jail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxitsokIt should absolutely be up to them, no question. However, if one considers the likelyhood that much of the violence in that country is fuelled by revenge, executing, while perhaps satisfying to many, in some ways legitimizes a revenge mentality, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Many would agree that Saddam's regime represented Sunnis (though many might also argue that Saddam himself wasn't actually Sunni, simply Ba'athist) and was terribly opressive to the Shia majority (and Kurds also, of course). Now we have mostly Shias in charge. That's not a bad thing. But I think executing Saddam may just be seen as retribution by one side and will simply add to the sad, sick cycle of violence in that country.
Let the government lead by example. Let him rot in jail.
And on the other hand, Saddam's execution might be viewed as a proper coda for that whole period of Iraqi history, not to mention the not-so-subliminal effect of purging a mistake that is arguably the fault of the U.S. ...good all around, when viewed that way.
As I said, they deserve a definitive expression of a self-determinative nature, and this might as well be it...again, we can work on the other later.
We've not even handed them the bat yet; it's a bit early to expect them to hit a home-run.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer4evaDo you know why the sunnis are upset?Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I also know why certain Iraqis are emitting cheers.
I take it all in quite easily, you see.
Tony Blair has said he disagrees with the sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
I saw a wee bit of that 'interview'. He got angry when pushed to answer if he thought Saddam should be executed. He said he would answer in 'his own way'. Whatever that means.:rolleyes: It was only a news clip. I would like to see the full interview.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by vidccTony Blair has said he disagrees with the sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboab
Perhaps he prefers J2's option where the Iraqi people give him a penis extension operation and make him "hung" ;)
I don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
pictures are hung people are hanged. If people are hung it's slang for endowed.
Or have you broadened your definitions?
Obscure, but well-spotted nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Your competence is at it's apex; please explain your outstanding interpersonal overstep, then.
He isn't dead yet. So don't count your chickens before they hatch. There is an appeal process yet to go.