This seemed an interesting topic. Any one any ideas? I thought that it was an Indian religion.
Another question, are the Vedas older than the old testament?
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This seemed an interesting topic. Any one any ideas? I thought that it was an Indian religion.
Another question, are the Vedas older than the old testament?
I think you may have started a hot one here.
Who's calendar are you going to use?
Carbon dating has been brought into question because of the possibility that some so-called 'known' events may not have taken place when they were first thought to have done, but these were the origins for the basis of carbon dating.
Note: this is not related to the half-life of carbon isotopes, which is physical fact, but to the amounts of those isotopes in samples at times in the past, which is subject to atmospheric conditions, plant growth rates etc.
For instance, it is now thought that certain egyptian event streams may actually taken place simultaneously (ie they overlap), whereas it was previously thought that there was a gap of several hundred years.
Hope you are going to referee this.
i always thought Islam was the oldest <_<
wasn't Hinduism another form of Paganism that spread from Babylon?
found this:
People have a misconception that islam is 1400 Years old and that Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) is the founder of this religion. Islam existed since time immemorial, ever since man first set foot on this earth. Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was the final messenger of Allah.
and this:
A Religion Cannot Be Claimed To Be Most Pure And Authentic, Only On The Criterion That It Is The Oldest. It Is Similar To A Person Saying That The Water He Has Kept In An Open Glass, In His House, Outside The Refrigerator, For Three Months Is Purer Than The Water Which Has Just Been Collected In A Clean Glass, Immediately After It Has Been Purified.
Talking of calendars an interesting calendar is the Mayan calendar. But I am not sure that use of a calendar will give proof of the oldest religion.Quote:
Originally posted by lynx@24 July 2003 - 10:54
I think you may have started a hot one here.
Who's calendar are you going to use?
Over the Vedas; they are written in the very ancient language Sanscrit.( I dont know if I have spelt it correctly). I thought that Sanscrit is the oldest written language. More important is if a religion can bring, tolerance, peace and harmony to this world. Peace alone is just not good enough; although I would settle for "peace" in the beginning.....
Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots of the popular religions and is considered by many to be the oldest (still living) religion.
Quote:
Most reference books list Hinduism as the oldest world religion. This is probably because Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures.
in northern australia there are paintings [with spiritual significance] that are at least 24,000 years old, likely to be about 60,000 years old and may be as ancient as 120,000 years old
that's a long time ago
and there are still law keepers alive who keep the knowledge relating to them
PS can people reference sources for their quotes when possible, it makes the who discussion thing a much richer experience for everyone
and it makes you look like you've researched :lol:
echidna
You forgot to post the source of your data.
Or didn't you research? :)
Neil
AFAI can tell, this cannot be answered in current times.
There is likely that at least one religion would have since ceased to exist; it's happened to some languages before.
However, I think ancient texts spoke of a world library of knowledge in Egypt, probably Alexandria - But I think the whole place burned down for some reason :unsure: Probably myth though.
Either way - AFAIK this cannot be answered in that way. Ones that still exist, I think that the egyptians have the eldest known roots and worshipped gods (e.g. Osiris, Anubis). I think that would be the oldest religion, even though it's not as much in use now outside Egypt :)
I don't think it is used much inside Egypt either.Quote:
Originally posted by Illuminati@24 July 2003 - 14:16
Ones that still exist, I think that the egyptians have the eldest known roots and worshipped gods (e.g. Osiris, Anubis). I think that would be the oldest religion, even though it's not as much in use now outside Egypt :)
The oldest religion, although no one knows what it is, would have to be a nature based religion.
Wicca is probably the "oldest" in UK, followed by Druidism...these would have evolved from similar Pagan religions on Mainland Europe, prior to the Viking, Roman and Greek "gods" taking over there.
I would have thought that these would have evolved from still earlier Pagan religions in Africa/Middle East and so on back...
Wicca never died in UK, and bears no relationship to the "wicca" that is now flourishing in the USA....
So, i'd say Wicca (Old Wicca, not the new Fad) is probably the oldest Religion in Europe, but not the world...(unless there are Pagan religions related and still being practised in mainland Europe?)
here are some references
[mainly for Neil__ (when i wrote that i'd like to see more references, i was meaning that quotes should be referenced, rather than every statement anyone makes. if you use other peoples words you should attribute them i think) i hope this helps Neil__]
anyway here are some quotes on the topic i broached;
Quote:
Originally posted by www.curtin.edu.au/learn/unit/art/v36/v36_topic4.html+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (http://www.curtin.edu.au/learn/unit/...36_topic4.html)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aboriginal art is the world's oldest continuous living art tradition and it is the rock art of Central Australia which is the oldest, and predates European presence by more than 40,000 years. Many of the formal aspects of Aboriginal culture were associated with ceremonies and rituals rather than monuments and building as in other cultures. Rock art is the one tangible aspect of Aboriginal culture which has endured. ‘In innumerable galleries across the continent, pictorial records survive, often in spectacular graphic form. Few Australians are aware that their homeland contains examples of rock art which span the time periods five times greater than that covered by Egypt's pyramids.’ (Walsh 1988: 13)
[/b]
Quote:
Originally posted by www.upfromaustralia.com/50yearofcavp.html+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (www.upfromaustralia.com/50yearofcavp.html)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aborigines would probably not get IS9002 accreditation in documentation, as we had never put anything down in writing. Simple reason was that we never invented writing for our language(s), but we loved to DRAW to preserve our thoughts and culture. Our 50,000 year old rock art painting, along with oration of legends by tribal leaders passed though generation(s), are responsible in keeping knowledge and traditions alive
Some really sacred Rock Art are not for viewing Some rock paintings are of the really special spiritual significance, bearing the strongest psychological and ritual values. Some rock paintings are really,really sacred, and unfortunately not open to tourist eyes…and even to most aborigines except for certain “initiated” elders who have proven their worth as custodians. Sorry mate, there are certain art galleries that are not for entrance and sale at any price…
Aboriginal rock art is recognised as the world's oldest and longest continuous living tradition. The ancient art is found all across Australia in the form of paintings or engravings on rock.
How old is Aboriginal Rock Art? Archaelogists continue to argue over their age, but some of the earliest paintings, in red ochre in northern sandstone shelters, have been dated at 50,000 years. In 1996 in the Kimberley region of Western Australia, an engraving site was dated at 110,000 years old, sending archaelogists back to the drawing board and rewriting the history of modern human movement.[/b]
<!--QuoteBegin-cedir.uow.edu.au/programs/jinmium/@Quote:
Originally posted by http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...825394030.html
NSW Premier Bob Carr said. . .
"This reminds us 4000 years ago, when you had civilisation flourishing in Mesopotamia, when you had the power of Egypt, before China was united, while Stonehenge was being built, we had Aboriginal people in these lands, on the outskirts of the Sydney basin," he said.
. . .
"If someone in Italy said they had just found a new Etruscan tomb, that would date back to 700BC. This find is 2000BC. If someone excavating in Athens discovered the ancient foundations of a classical building, this is 1500 years before that.
"It is eerie, exciting, this contact with a very old Australia, with the Aboriginal people who have been expressing their spiritual views in this remote rock shelter deep in the wilderness for so long,"
Archaeological research by a joint University of Wollongong and Australian Museum team suggests that Australia may have been first occupied by people before 100,000 years ago. The research, which has received extensive media coverage in the last few months, also provides a date of around 60,000 years ago for a form of rock art known as cupule engraving. This has long been recognised to be the oldest surviving form of rock art in Australia, but has not previously been found in a datable context. [/quote]
<!--QuoteBegin-www.aboriginalartonline.com/art/rockage.html
There is, however, indirect evidence going back a lot further, leading some archaeologists to argue that the rock art galleries in northern Australia are probably the oldest in the world. This is, of course, a contentious area, with recent claims for dates in southern France and northern Italy going back as far as 35 000 years.
Archaeologist Sue O'Connor at the Australian National University has found a buried fragment of rock painting preserved in the limestone rock-shelter of Carpenter's Gap in the Kimberley (near Windjana Gorge National Park) in a layer dated to 40 000 years old
[/quote]
that is about as much research as i can be bothered with at the moment [fascinating though it is]
this line of thought also supports what Rat Faced wrote about 'nature religions' too
@illuminati :: the library at alexandria was burned by christians as far as i know because it held so much pagan knowledge, what a bunch of xenophobic c#nts! i think the monotheists have been a terrible scourge on the earth
Thanks echidna.
Interesting.
Neil
Others suggest that the library was stored in grain depositaries and was burnt when Julius Caesar destroyed the fleet of Cleopatra's brother. It seems that multi-theists have also had their 'moments'.Quote:
Originally posted by echidna@24 July 2003 - 16:26
@illuminati :: the library at alexandria was burned by christians as far as i know because it held so much pagan knowledge, what a bunch of xenophobic c#nts! i think the monotheists have been a terrible scourge on the earth
You can't blame atheists like that (and before anyone starts, Hitler, Stalin etc may have been atheists, but they didn't do their misdeeds in the name of atheism).
I would hazard a guess that whichever belief system the people followed with the Venus of Willendorf figurine (24,000-22,000 BC) is likely the oldest that we know about.
The Library of Alexandria (one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World) was destroyed by fire. http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm examines a few of those theories.
:ninja:
why am i not suprised :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by hypoluxa3k@24 July 2003 - 03:08
i always thought Islam was the oldest <_<
i'm sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.
Don't ALL religions believe in some higher being? ;)Quote:
Originally posted by kAb@24 July 2003 - 20:11
i'm sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.
Don't ALL religions believe in some higher being? ;) [/b][/quote]Quote:
Originally posted by slammy_dunken+24 July 2003 - 18:13--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (slammy_dunken @ 24 July 2003 - 18:13)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-kAb@24 July 2003 - 20:11
i'm sure it was a very old religion where humans believed in some higher being.
yeah.... i'm suggesting that it started out very simply...
Most early religions are polytheistic, so it'd be higher beings. ;)
:ninja:
the deities [for want of a better word] in many of the oldest religions are more like supernatural ancestors of the people whose religion it is and aspects of the environments in which they live
rather than higher beings which are apart and different to the people
there is a definite sense of connection and lineage between the venerated 'beings' and the people venerating
as opposed to the distinct separateness of more familiar ideas of 'god' like yahweh/allah where god is still seen as origin but is separate and different to the people
[a lot of discussion about very old religions talk in terms like animism which although giving a valuable impression of the religions fails to encompass the complexities and nuance of these super old beliefs]
Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I am sure the intention of the topic was just to gain some knowledge. But normally, people inclined to their 'religions' tend to make knowingly or unknowingly some biased judgements. It is for our own self to realize when we make it.
Secondly, as someone did mention it before a religion being old doesnt prove anything as far as the purity or the religion or the truth of the religion is concerned. Originally all of them had the kindest intention and changed later to rules to be followed by many. And unfortunately, people point fingers at each other saying 'mine is the true one' etc.
Best to my knowledge the confirmed oldest religion is Hinduism(is not polytheistic which some might think) and yes Vedas are much older than old testaments as already pointed out.
Discussions like these can never reach a proper result unless all are unbiased. And somehow once in a while when we are struck by topics like these we do tend to get biased.
If you really want to know which is the oldest one try a search on google and check the sources to clarify. Use your own judgement and sense to understand.
Just some of my thoughts...
The oldest religion still in wide-spread practice to date may be, but it isn't the "oldest religion ever," which seems to be what spawned this thread.
On a side note, there was just a pretty graphic picture of Qusai on the television.
:ninja:
Glad to see ya Magic Naker.Quote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 00:07
The oldest religion still in wide-spread practice to date may be, but it isn't the "oldest religion ever,"
:ninja:
Yup not the oldest ever. But since we cannot go back in time to clarify which one was really the oldest so there is no point contemplating on that isnt it?
Naker... well, that brings to mind some interesting images. ;)
No, certainly not, it's rather unlikely that the system I was speaking about even has an actual label, as such. I just remember the conversation before which spawned this thread: Tralalalala saying that Judaism was the oldest religion ever, and my rather esoteric comment to that. In my defense, I was physically ill. ;)
It would be fun to speculate, though. I believe I've got some necromancy tools around here somewhere.
:ninja:
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).
tralalala
according to Islam,Judaism is Islam,any religion that was brought by a prophet of God/Allah is Islam(submission to God),in this case,Mose/Musa,that is why Islam is the oldest religion,it is the natural religion,well this is if you want to believe it,just giving my own opinion,and by the way,according to Islam again,initially there was only one religion to start with,but people have become misguided and corrupted their own religion,making it a man-made religion,God have sent prophets to each nation,and the last one is/was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) the sealer of all prophets,he was sent to the whole mankind and JinsQuote:
Originally posted by tralalala@25 July 2003 - 08:27
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).
tralalala
Peace be upon you/Assalamualaikum
No.Quote:
Originally posted by tralalala@25 July 2003 - 08:27
Judaism is the oldest religion which is still practiced (5700 years).
tralalala
It MAY be the oldest MAJOR religion still practised, there are many others older, Wicca and Druidism among them.
And as i said earlier, even they dont claim to be the oldest.
You've had examples of religions given that are 10 X as old as Judaism claims the world has existed, so it cant be the oldest.
Christians would say their religion is the oldest.
Their God created the heavens and the earth so it must be the oldest.
The same goes for any other religion that claims a creator.
Neil
You forget.Quote:
Originally posted by Neil__@25 July 2003 - 13:39
Christians would say their religion is the oldest.
Their God created the heavens and the earth so it must be the oldest.
The same goes for any other religion that claims a creator.
Neil
Christianity is a split from Juadism...so until 2003 (or thereabouts) years ago, they WERE the same religion.
I always wondered myself however, how the (and I dont mean to upset anyone here..) Spiteful, Vengeful, Bastard portrayed in the 1st book (Old Testament) as God could possibly have been same being as the Loveable, fuddiduddy, Grandad portrayed in the Sequel (New Testament).
I didn't forgetQuote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@25 July 2003 - 15:19
You forget.
Christianity is a split from Juadism...so until 2003 (or thereabouts) years ago, they WERE the same religion.
I think the point stands alone.
Tryibg to square that circle will "pickle your noodle" so I suggest leaving that one to the theologists.Quote:
I always wondered myself however, how the (and I dont mean to upset anyone here..) Spiteful, Vengeful, Bastard portrayed in the 1st book (Old Testament) as God could possibly have been same being as the Loveable, fuddiduddy, Grandad portrayed in the Sequel (New Testament).
Neil
They say having children changes a person. ;)
Wicca isn't an old religion. It's based on various pagan rites, but it's a thoroughly modern horse.
:ninja:
I'd already seperated out the current "Fad" to be a pagan :PQuote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 14:55
They say having children changes a person. ;)
Wicca isn't an old religion. It's based on various pagan rites, but it's a thoroughly modern horse.
:ninja:
Wicca was one practised the UK before Christianity arrived and never completely died out.
Wicca is only one of the literally hundreds of Pagan religions....however, its also the one that the "modern" pagans chose to call themselves :(
The oldest religion is "FEAR", the knowledge that we are physically finite. No other animal bears this burden.
We have since come up with verbal and written talismans to conquer "fear". An ultimate protector has been given the label "God". "God", meaning different things to different people, but universally a buffer from "fear".... if, and only if, you follow the rules.
Without "FEAR", "God" is pointless.
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan !? :unsure:
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i paintedQuote:
Originally posted by ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan !? :unsure:
Earth Goddess = Mother Nature
etc etc etc
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i paintedQuote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced+25 July 2003 - 18:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 25 July 2003 - 18:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan !? :unsure:
Earth Goddess = Mother Nature
etc etc etc [/b][/quote]
And why did they need fertility goddesses? FEAR of extinction.
Why did they worship and sacrifice to the Gods of rain, wind, and bountiful harvest. Fear of destruction and starvation.
Again, without FEAR, these primitive attempts to lend stability to an unpredictable world would be meaningless.
That also fits in with the Nature Religion picture i paintedQuote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced+25 July 2003 - 18:44--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 25 July 2003 - 18:44)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ToraBoraDweller@25 July 2003 - 17:26
I suspect the oldest god or more likely goddess would be one who dealt with fertility.
Many ancient artifacts depict a fat woman-figurine.
The second oldest would be the equivalent of satan !? :unsure:
Earth Goddess = Mother Nature
etc etc etc [/b][/quote]
True ,but I try to be a bit more specific .
There are more anthropological models : 1st man was a hunter or
1st man was a nomadic gatherer ,or combination of both .
Fact is there are not enough traces (anyways not enough to point out a clear origin)
One could also say that 1st ppl worshipped fire (There was a movie made around that idea :Quest for Fire(excellent dialogue) ;) ).
@MagicNakerQuote:
Originally posted by MagicNakor@25 July 2003 - 01:26
Naker... well, that brings to mind some interesting images. ;)
No, certainly not, it's rather unlikely that the system I was speaking about even has an actual label, as such. I just remember the conversation before which spawned this thread: Tralalalala saying that Judaism was the oldest religion ever, and my rather esoteric comment to that. In my defense, I was physically ill. ;)
It would be fun to speculate, though. I believe I've got some necromancy tools around here somewhere.
:ninja:
Oops! Sorry missed the spelling in quick typing!
Atheism. It must be. Before people existed, there was no religion. No belief.
After reading all your posts, I have come to the conclusion, that the oldest religion in the world, is IGNORANCE.
Quite literally, the oldest religion in the world is the one where cavemen developed cognizant thought process, and needed explanations for things they couldn't explain on their own.