Microsoft Faces $618m Fine In Eu Case

The EU most likely took into account Microsoft's worldwide sales.

Microsoft adds that is unprecedented to take into account global operations when looking at one part of the world.

The EU also wants to restrict MS from bundling WMP into Windows sold in Europe and divulge technical information that will allow competitors to more easily design server software to link with Windows PCs.

Previously, the highest fine imposed was $571M against Hoffman-La Roche in 2001 for leading a vitamin cartel.

The European courts see things differently from the US in that they look at fair practices for the consumer ahead of the company. This case looks like Ms is being punished for trying to create a monopoly, something viewed as being anti consumer and pro profiteer.
The size of the fine possibly does take microsofts worldwide turnover into account as it would be viewed as a punishment that would bite and not just something that would be shrugged off.
Personally I see nothing wrong with MS putting as much software into windows as they wish, however they are making it hard for other companies to make compatible software.
It is interesting that Microsoft are helping to fund the legal battle against linux and the use of code

Quote:

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Originally posted by vidcc@23 March 2004 - 14:20
The European courts see things differently from the US in that they look at fair practices for the consumer ahead of the company. This case looks like Ms is being punished for trying to create a monopoly, something viewed as being anti consumer and pro profiteer.
The size of the fine possibly does take microsofts worldwide turnover into account as it would be viewed as a punishment that would bite and not just something that would be shrugged off.
Personally I see nothing wrong with MS putting as much software into windows as they wish, however they are making it hard for other companies to make compatible software.
It is interesting that Microsoft are helping to fund the legal battle against linux and the use of code

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It's rather weird. All of this started when Netscape, who had 90% of the browser market, lost market share to Microsoft.

I wish Microsoft would bundle Office with Windows. Then I&#39;ll watch the government tell me that it&#39;s bad for the consumer <_< . What&#39;s also interesting is to see alot of CONSUMERS jump on the anti-Microsoft antitrust bandwagon when they can&#39;t even tell how they are being harmed. :lol: :lol:

btw Microsoft IS a monopoly. Who uses OS2/Warp? :lol: :lol: :lol:
also MS has 52 billion so this fine is still a scratch.

Regarding Linux, that was interesting that Microsoft was one of the first to pony a Linux license to SCO. SCO winning licensing from others would actually help MS due to the code no longer being open source.

On what are you basing your estimate that Microsoft has 52 Billion.

I assume you mean dollars, or do you mean another currency.

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@23 March 2004 - 10:53
On what are you basing your estimate that Microsoft has 52 Billion.

I assume you mean dollars, or do you mean another currency.

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it&#39;s commonly understood, in US dollars


i was surprised that you didn&#39;t know

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez+23 March 2004 - 21:10--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (james_bond_rulez @ 23 March 2004 - 21:10)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@23 March 2004 - 10:53
On what are you basing your estimate that Microsoft has 52 Billion.

I assume you mean dollars, or do you mean another currency.

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it&#39;s commonly understood, in US dollars


i was surprised that you didn&#39;t know [/b][/quote]
You say it&#39;s commonly understood that Microsoft is worth &#036;52 Billion.

Can you perhaps point me to some sort of evidence of this. It&#39;s not that I don&#39;t believe you, honestly. It&#39;s just that I find it staggering.

ya i just heard this figure on an american news channel yesterday, they were reporting on this new and the anchor said " It&#39;s a small price for Microsoft to pay since it is a company that is worth 52 billion dollars"

I&#39;ll find a news source on this

I heard this on a Seattle news channel btw....

EDIT: damn it i can&#39;t find it atm, perhaps later... <_<

I&#39;m not sure, but I think you will find it has Cash Reserves of that level.

The fine is less than a months income to Microsoft, who made over &#036;32 Billion last year. It made &#036;11 Billion from Windows alone.

As far as I am aware Microsoft is not worth &#036;52 Billion, or anything even remotely close to it.

holy shit r u saying it&#39;s worth more than that?

what is ur estimate of Microsoft&#39;s worth? :blink:

I am guessing half a trillion dollars.... <_<

The figure would probably be an estimate based on the amount each share is worth on the stock market...hard assets both fixed and liquid such as property and inventory probably wouldn&#39;t be worth that amount, but you have to look at it as a going concern with worth in both customer base and good repute.
The tech industry although highly competetive and cut throat is the future for now so to me it&#39;s supprising that the estimate is ONLY &#036;52 billion for what is lets face it...the alpha male

microsoft share value

&#036;400 billion &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; now that&#39;s better Mind you this was a 1999 report :lol:

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Originally posted by james_bond_rulez@23 March 2004 - 21:58
holy shit r u saying it&#39;s worth more than that?

what is ur estimate of Microsoft&#39;s worth? :blink:

I am guessing half a trillion dollars.... <_<

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I&#39;m saying they have &#036;50billion in cash.

It is difficult to say how much they are are worth, but it will certainly be hundreds of billions. As my esteemed colleague says it is difficult to put any meaningful value on such a company. The share price fluctuates, the assets fluctuate, intellectual property is bought and sold all sorts of things happen.

The bottom line is that the fine is less than a months trading to the business, though in reality they could pay it from "readily available funds" if they so chose.

Again in reality Microsofts position in the world is poorly understood, because people think of it as synonymous with Bill Gates. He himself was at one time estimated as being worth the &#036;50billion you speak of. Again fairly meaningless tho&#39;, when you consider that a few years ago MS shares traded at &#036;90, but now I think it&#39;s about &#036;25.

It would be funny if MS stopped selling programs and supporting programs in Europe, it would temporally cause kaos.

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 00:22
It would be funny if MS stopped selling programs and supporting programs in Europe, it would temporally cause kaos.

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No it wouldn&#39;t.

It is at best unlikely that even Microsoft could cause disruptions in space / time by not selling or supporting it&#39;s software.

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+23 March 2004 - 19:07--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol &#064; 23 March 2004 - 19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 00:22
It would be funny if MS stopped selling programs and supporting programs in Europe, it would temporally cause kaos.

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No it wouldn&#39;t.

It is at best unlikely that even Microsoft could cause disruptions in space / time by not selling or supporting it&#39;s software. [/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t think it would affect big corporation&#39;s who can afford to bring in some IT dudes to change to other systems. I do think it would have an effect on small business who can&#39;t afford to hustle in IT dudes since demand for them would increase causing there services to increase in cost.

Those who continued using it may find it hard to get security patches and other necessities, since MS knows the country of origin for every registered W O/S.

the US dreamed it, the UE did it :P

The EU just ordered that Microsoft pay a fine of 497 millions euros (&#036;613m) for abusing its dominant market position.

It&#39;s a record for the EU in an antitrust case - but still not much for Microsoft.

But the best part is (from the BBC web site) :

"The UE has ordered Microsoft to reveal details of its Windows software codes within 120 days , to make it easier for rivals to design compatible products.

Microsoft must offer a stripped-down version of its Windows operating system minus the firm&#39;s MediaPlayer audiovisual software within 90 days ."

Of course, Microsoft has already said it will appeal, but still...
What do you think :) ?

PS. I hope it&#39;s the right place for posting this, sorry mods if it&#39;s not...

The EU&#39;s demands reminds me of a child&#39;s Christmas list. :D
I don&#39;t think they have the intestinal fortitude to enforce this and it&#39;s a bluff. Software can be quit elusive since it&#39;s not a physical object, if MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market. The US would never extradite MS executives for what it see&#39;s at free market capitalism.

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

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Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem...

The appeals will go on for months or years. However at the end of the day the EU will enforce the fine. MS will pay the fine, which may or may not be reduced as part of the appeal process.

They will also enforce the other punitive measures, albeit after the appeals process is complete.

When you talk about "all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market. " we are talking about a huge market. Bearing in mind that the vast bulk of software in the Far East is pirated, then they need the European Market.

No one said anything about extraditing anyone.

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Originally posted by jobauer+24 March 2004 - 12:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jobauer @ 24 March 2004 - 12:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

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Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem... [/b][/quote]
In the USA if someone refuses a court order they are arrested, so if the EU court said cough up 600 million and they refused an arrest is about the only recourse possible besides seizing money assets but there in the USA.

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>+24 March 2004 - 21:02--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (<TROUBLE^MAKER> @ 24 March 2004 - 21:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 12:55
<!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>

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@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

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Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem...

---

In the USA if someone refuses a court order they are arrested, so if the EU court said cough up 600 million and they refused an arrest is about the only recourse possible besides seizing money assets but there in the USA. [/b][/quote]
Who would they arrest, the fine will be on the body corporate.

To M&#036; it really does not matter as much.

Consumers will make up for any lose revenue when they buy a pre-built pc with pre-bundled software.

For most "typical" consumers they have no choice but to fatten the pockets of M&#036; because even if they never bought any M&#036; product again M&#036; still makes money from pre bundled software on crappy new computers that most of you buy.

Btw, my pc was pre-built (sorda)...........but the only pre-bundled software it came with was Red Hat Linux AS 2.1. ;)

I think it&#39;s better for most people to just face the fact the M&#036; 0wns you. And do not waste too much time concerning yourself with their revenue because you will never see any of it in your hands................ and you can take that to the bank. :)

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+24 March 2004 - 15:42--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 24 March 2004 - 15:42)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 21:02

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Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 12:55
<!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>

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Quote:

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@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

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Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem...

---

In the USA if someone refuses a court order they are arrested, so if the EU court said cough up 600 million and they refused an arrest is about the only recourse possible besides seizing money assets but there in the USA.

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Who would they arrest, the fine will be on the body corporate. [/b][/quote]
Since Corporations don&#39;t have a brain or any other means of self determination, a board of directors are appointed to take responsibility with full knowledge that they are personally responsible for it&#39;s actions. When your in court the board of directors play the role of guardian, similar to a parent being responsible for there child when it comes to civil suits. If MS refused to pay 600 million that would be viewed as an action of the board members so the directors would be charged with contempt of court and obstruction of the justice.

I never mentioned Bill Gates in my posts.

Neither did I mention Mr Gates, I am not aware if he is a director, only that he is a major shareholder. Didn&#39;t he resign as CEO a short while ago.

Which particular legal system / jurisdiction are you describing when you use this "guardian" analogy.

Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action. However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it. Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses. OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+24 March 2004 - 18:21--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol &#064; 24 March 2004 - 18:21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Neither did I mention Mr Gates, I am not aware if he is a director, only that he is a major shareholder. Didn&#39;t he resign as CEO a short while ago.

[/b]

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Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 12:55

Quote:

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

---

Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem...

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<!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@24 March 2004 - 18:21

Which particular legal system / jurisdiction are you describing when you use this "guardian" analogy. [/quote]



The USA and Canada


Should a corporation be treated as capable of committing a crime? Canada and other common law jurisdictions have answered this question with a clear "Yes". Under our Criminal Code, a "person" is defined, in section 2, to include "public bodies, bodies corporate, societies, [and] companies…" A corporation, therefore, is a person and may be held responsible for a crime.

Corporations, however, can only act through the people they employ and the law must look to the actions of individuals -- particularly those in charge of the company -- in order to determine the criminal liability of the corporation itself. It is this attribution of liability to the corporate entity that provides the focal point for the development of the law.

Within common law jurisdictions, several broad, and quite different, models have evolved. These include: the identification model, the longstanding approach in Canada and the United Kingdom; vicarious liability, still the premise for liability in the United States; and, the corporate culture model adopted most prominently in Australia.

In May 2000, the Home Office issued proposals

http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/cc...troduction.html


http://www.tdc.ca/liable.htm

http://www.mycorporation.com/corpdirecto.htm

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Originally posted by Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 17:34
Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.&nbsp;

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action.&nbsp; However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.&nbsp;

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it.&nbsp; Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses.&nbsp; OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

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Why don&#39;t you change that Red Hat Fedora link in your sig to Lindows

Fedora is not a replacement for Windows, then again neither is Lindows. :lol:

minesweeper........argh&#33;
minesweeper.....argh&#33;&#33;
minesweeper + Unix/X solitaire games based on the ones available for Windows™....................................ARGH&#33;&#33;&#33; :ninja:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 23:34
What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action.&nbsp; However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.

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I agree with that. That&#39;s actually what I tried to point out in my first post :)

And yes, the UE is a huge market, which MS can&#39;t afford to lose

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Originally posted by jobauer+24 March 2004 - 19:02--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jobauer @ 24 March 2004 - 19:02)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 23:34
What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action.&nbsp; However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.

---

I agree with that. That&#39;s actually what I tried to point out in my first post :)

And yes, the UE is a huge market, wich MS can&#39;t afford to lose [/b][/quote]
http://www.digital-law-online.com/misc/ogilvie.htm

http://stlr.stanford.edu/STLR/Articl..._4/article.htm

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>+25 March 2004 - 00:49--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (<TROUBLE^MAKER> &#064; 25 March 2004 - 00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@24 March 2004 - 18:21
Neither did I mention Mr Gates, I am not aware if he is a director, only that he is a major shareholder. Didn&#39;t he resign as CEO a short while ago.

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Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 12:55

Quote:

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Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@24 March 2004 - 14:45
If MS refuses the demands all the EU can do is pull MS&#39;s products from the market

---

Well, don&#39;t you see it&#39;s a huge decision already ?

Who talked about extradition of Bill Gates and Co ? The UE sure can&#39;t, and doesn&#39;t want that. Still, if you&#39;re a company and you&#39;re fordidden to sell your products (and I remind you we haven&#39;t reach that point yet, and probably never will), it&#39;s a BIG problem...

---

<!--QuoteBegin-J&#39;Pol@24 March 2004 - 18:21

Which particular legal system / jurisdiction are you describing when you use this "guardian" analogy.

---

The USA and Canada


Should a corporation be treated as capable of committing a crime? Canada and other common law jurisdictions have answered this question with a clear "Yes". Under our Criminal Code, a "person" is defined, in section 2, to include "public bodies, bodies corporate, societies, [and] companies…" A corporation, therefore, is a person and may be held responsible for a crime.

Corporations, however, can only act through the people they employ and the law must look to the actions of individuals -- particularly those in charge of the company -- in order to determine the criminal liability of the corporation itself. It is this attribution of liability to the corporate entity that provides the focal point for the development of the law.

Within common law jurisdictions, several broad, and quite different, models have evolved. These include: the identification model, the longstanding approach in Canada and the United Kingdom; vicarious liability, still the premise for liability in the United States; and, the corporate culture model adopted most prominently in Australia.

In May 2000, the Home Office issued proposals

http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/dept/pub/cc...troduction.html


http://www.tdc.ca/liable.htm

http://www.mycorporation.com/corpdirecto.htm [/b][/quote]


And what pray tell do the legal systems of the USA and Canada have to do with the EU.

Quote:

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Originally posted by shn+25 March 2004 - 01:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shn &#064; 25 March 2004 - 01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 17:34
Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.&nbsp;

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action.&nbsp; However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.&nbsp;

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it.&nbsp; Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses.&nbsp; OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

---

Why don&#39;t you change that Red Hat Fedora link in your sig to Lindows

Fedora is not a replacement for Windows, then again neither is Lindows. :lol: [/b][/quote]
Why don&#39;t I change it to Mandrake? or SuSE? or Debian, Xandros or Slackware? ;)

All are distros are Linux. However, Red Hat is seen by a few as the popular distro closest resembling to Windows - Slangingly known as the Windows Junkie&#39;s/Linux Novice&#39;s My First Linux.

When I wrote the sig you see, I didn&#39;t write it to show off what open-source programs are Ub8r-gr8 (if you get my drift ;)). I wrote it to show readers how open-source programs can be bloody good alternatives to MS Software.

The techies can get into open-source with both hands but many casual users still need to try things out a step at a time :D

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Originally posted by Illuminati+24 March 2004 - 18:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Illuminati &#064; 24 March 2004 - 18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

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Originally posted by shn@25 March 2004 - 01:01
<!--QuoteBegin-Illuminati

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Quote:

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@24 March 2004 - 17:34
Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action. However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it. Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses. OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

---

Why don&#39;t you change that Red Hat Fedora link in your sig to Lindows

Fedora is not a replacement for Windows, then again neither is Lindows. :lol:

---

Why don&#39;t I change it to Mandrake? or SuSE? or Debian, Xandros or Slackware? ;)

All are distros are Linux. However, Red Hat is seen by a few as the popular distro closest resembling to Windows - Slangingly known as the Windows Junkie&#39;s/Linux Novice&#39;s My First Linux.

When I wrote the sig you see, I didn&#39;t write it to show off what open-source programs are Ub8r-gr8 (if you get my drift ;)). I wrote it to show readers how open-source programs can be bloody good alternatives to MS Software.

The techies can get into open-source with both hands but many casual users still need to try things out a step at a time :D[/b][/quote]
RedHat dude&#33; Get it right&#33;

Not Fedora. It&#39;s basically for developers and it will crash and you will have to fix it..................so can you fix it? :-"


Btw, you forgot Gentoo...............and about a thousand other distros. :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>@25 March 2004 - 00:11

http://www.digital-law-online.com/misc/ogilvie.htm

http://stlr.stanford.edu/STLR/Articl..._4/article.htm

---

:huh: What&#39;s your point ? This thread is not about software copyrights from a philosophical, theoretical, technical or legal point of view...

we are -were- talking about the EU decision and its consequences for Microsoft.

I guess you deserve your name, huh <_<

Anyway, I&#39;m outta here. So long

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn+25 March 2004 - 01:25--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shn &#064; 25 March 2004 - 01:25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Illuminati+24 March 2004 - 18:18--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Illuminati &#064; 24 March 2004 - 18:18)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn@25 March 2004 - 01:01

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 17:34
Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.&nbsp;

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action.&nbsp; However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.&nbsp;

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it.&nbsp; Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses.&nbsp; OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

---

Why don&#39;t you change that Red Hat Fedora link in your sig to Lindows

Fedora is not a replacement for Windows, then again neither is Lindows. :lol:

---

Why don&#39;t I change it to Mandrake? or SuSE? or Debian, Xandros or Slackware? ;)

All are distros are Linux. However, Red Hat is seen by a few as the popular distro closest resembling to Windows - Slangingly known as the Windows Junkie&#39;s/Linux Novice&#39;s My First Linux.

When I wrote the sig you see, I didn&#39;t write it to show off what open-source programs are Ub8r-gr8 (if you get my drift ;)). I wrote it to show readers how open-source programs can be bloody good alternatives to MS Software.

The techies can get into open-source with both hands but many casual users still need to try things out a step at a time :D[/b]

---

RedHat dude&#33; Get it right&#33;

Not Fedora. It&#39;s basically for developers and it will crash and you will have to fix it..................so can you fix it? :-"


Btw, you forgot Gentoo...............and about a thousand other distros. :) [/b]

---

Without trying to career too far off-topic...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn
RedHat dude&#33;&nbsp; Get it right&#33;

---

http://www.redhat.com/img/hp_head_rhel2.gif
http://www.redhat.com/img/hp_rect_bluerhel_110x25.gif

Quote:

---

Copyright © 2004 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved.

---

Quote:

---

The Red Hat Magazine for Open Source Professionals and Advocates.

---

All taken from Red Hat&#39;s home page - Even the page&#39;s title...

Quote:

---

Red Hat -- Linux, Embedded Linux and Open Source Solutions

---

I could probably go with a :P but it&#39;s in reality a case of "you say tomato, I say tomato".

<!--QuoteBegin-shn@
Not Fedora.&nbsp; It&#39;s basically for developers and it will crash and you will have to fix it..................so can you fix it?&nbsp; :-" [/quote]

True - Fedora is about as stable as a car with only one wheel (no scouse jokes please people... :-"). However, it looks like Red Hat Inc could be heading towards the Fedora version, abeit chances are it&#39;ll be under another name at the time. Which is why I put it in (future-proofing ;)), though I might be wrong :) I&#39;ll have a look at Fedora and see whether it should be replaced with the old stable Red Hat :)

I&#39;m not changing the Linux Distro link beyond that though if that&#39;s what you&#39;re looking for :P The distro selected can be argued constantly but like the choice of Windows vs Linux it&#39;s personal choice of the user in the end.

I agree myself that for experienced users there&#39;s a lot of distros better than Red Hat, but for the starter/casual users something that at least feels similar to Windows is something that may be easier to learn the basics of Linux about.

<!--QuoteBegin-shn
Btw, you forgot Gentoo...............and about a thousand other distros.&nbsp; :)[/quote]

Oh b***dy hell - You want me to take an eternity to type all of them in? :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Illuminati+24 March 2004 - 18:43--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Illuminati &#064; 24 March 2004 - 18:43)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn+25 March 2004 - 01:25--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shn &#064; 25 March 2004 - 01:25)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 18:18

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn@25 March 2004 - 01:01

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Illuminati@24 March 2004 - 17:34
Fact is the fine doesn&#39;t mean much to Microsoft - It might be a lot to the EU and hopefully will go towards a few more projects on developing the Union (UK included I hope), but a company who&#39;s founding businessman is reputed to have enough wealth to buy a country is unlikely to be affected by an amount that big.

What will hurt Microsoft is the other actions - MS may (depends on the appeal) may to share parts of the code with competitors, MS may have to ship (at least in Europe) a version of Windows without any integrated media players, MS has offered the EU a compromise on where it will allow the feature for three selected media players to be shipped in Windows globally (i.e. not just in Europe)...the list goes on, but none of it is finalised until the EU gives the final action. However, one thing can be said - the EU&#39;s case against Microsoft affects Windows across the world, not just in Europe.

And some people say the Europeans don&#39;t do anything right :P

As for what might happen to small businesses if MS withdraws from Europe - There&#39;s very few other OSs that businesses might consider if you think about it. Apple Macs may be an option but the large costs in buying the hardware and the software will mean it&#39;d only really be for the professional/yuppie businesses. OS/2 might be an alternative but chances are that the businesses may go for a distro of Linux due to the popularity & support for it recently.

---

Why don&#39;t you change that Red Hat Fedora link in your sig to Lindows

Fedora is not a replacement for Windows, then again neither is Lindows. :lol:

---

Why don&#39;t I change it to Mandrake? or SuSE? or Debian, Xandros or Slackware? ;)

All are distros are Linux. However, Red Hat is seen by a few as the popular distro closest resembling to Windows - Slangingly known as the Windows Junkie&#39;s/Linux Novice&#39;s My First Linux.

When I wrote the sig you see, I didn&#39;t write it to show off what open-source programs are Ub8r-gr8 (if you get my drift ;)). I wrote it to show readers how open-source programs can be bloody good alternatives to MS Software.

The techies can get into open-source with both hands but many casual users still need to try things out a step at a time :D

---

RedHat dude&#33; Get it right&#33;

Not Fedora. It&#39;s basically for developers and it will crash and you will have to fix it..................so can you fix it? :-"


Btw, you forgot Gentoo...............and about a thousand other distros. :) [/b]

---

Without trying to career too far off-topic...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by shn
RedHat dude&#33; Get it right&#33;

---

http://www.redhat.com/img/hp_head_rhel2.gif
http://www.redhat.com/img/hp_rect_bluerhel_110x25.gif

Quote:

---

Copyright © 2004 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved.

---

Quote:

---

The Red Hat Magazine for Open Source Professionals and Advocates.

---

All taken from Red Hat&#39;s home page - Even the page&#39;s title...

Quote:

---

Red Hat -- Linux, Embedded Linux and Open Source Solutions

---

I could probably go with a :P but it&#39;s in reality a case of "you say tomato, I say tomato".

<!--QuoteBegin-shn@
Not Fedora. It&#39;s basically for developers and it will crash and you will have to fix it..................so can you fix it? :-"

---

True - Fedora is about as stable as a car with only one wheel (no scouse jokes please people... :-"). However, it looks like Red Hat Inc could be heading towards the Fedora version, abeit chances are it&#39;ll be under another name at the time. Which is why I put it in (future-proofing ;)), though I might be wrong :) I&#39;ll have a look at Fedora and see whether it should be replaced with Red Hat Enterprise :)

I&#39;m not changing the Linux Distro link beyond that though if that&#39;s what you&#39;re looking for :P The distro selected can be argued constantly but like the choice of Windows vs Linux it&#39;s personal choice of the user in the end.

I agree myself that for experienced users there&#39;s a lot of distros better than Red Hat, but for the starter/casual users something that at least feels similar to Windows is something that may be easier to learn the basics of Linux about.

<!--QuoteBegin-shn
Btw, you forgot Gentoo...............and about a thousand other distros. :)[/quote]

Oh b***dy hell - You want me to take an eternity to type all of them in? :lol:[/b][/quote]
Funny.

I did&#39;nt even read your post dude. I only saw the RedHat Enterprise pic.

*sighs*

Take in mind your trying to get a frivilous point across to someone that not only ran RedHat Enterprise server 2.1 for 4 years flat (since I was a wee tweet), but RedHat Enterprise Worksation 2.1 as well.

I won&#39;t waste my time with someone that can&#39;t even tell me the difference between the two.

Client ------------&#62; Server....................... Get it?

Your claims have no merit&#33;

Linux is a ladder, with each distro you move up that ladder................like I said, you left out Gentoo. :)

End

Maybe if you read the whole post through, you&#39;d know why I posted the pic of Red Hat Enterprise Linux - I couldn&#39;t have posted the reason why I did any clearer :lol: Then again, usually once a name argument is solved everything else goes to hell ;)

Now - Let&#39;s go back to the original subject of the post instead of talking about my signature. If anyone wants to argue about it, they can PM me in private <_<

Anyone else got any thoughts on the Microsoft issue

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jobauer+24 March 2004 - 19:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jobauer &#064; 24 March 2004 - 19:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>@25 March 2004 - 00:11

http://www.digital-law-online.com/misc/ogilvie.htm

http://stlr.stanford.edu/STLR/Articl..._4/article.htm

---

:huh: What&#39;s your point ? This thread is not about software copyrights from a philosophical, theoretical, technical or legal point of view...

we are -were- talking about the EU decision and its consequences for Microsoft.

I guess you deserve your name, huh <_<

Anyway, I&#39;m outta here. So long[/b][/quote]
That&#39;s the reason why the USA will tell the EU to eat a sh&#33;t sandwich and shut the Fuk up.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>+25 March 2004 - 04:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (<TROUBLE^MAKER> @ 25 March 2004 - 04:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 19:41
<!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>

---

Quote:

---

@25 March 2004 - 00:11

http://www.digital-law-online.com/misc/ogilvie.htm

http://stlr.stanford.edu/STLR/Articl..._4/article.htm

---

:huh: What&#39;s your point ? This thread is not about software copyrights from a philosophical, theoretical, technical or legal point of view...

we are -were- talking about the EU decision and its consequences for Microsoft.

I guess you deserve your name, huh <_<

Anyway, I&#39;m outta here. So long

---

That&#39;s the reason why the USA will tell the EU to eat a sh&#33;t sandwich and shut the Fuk up. [/b][/quote]
I still don&#39;t really get it either, those links don&#39;t seem helpful in explaining anything to do with this topic.
Imo there is absolutely no way that microsoft would pull completely out of Europe over this (leaving it for linux and apple?). Its not like they even have to act straight away, it said on the news yesterday that they have 7 years to make their appeals and comply with the ruling.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by <TROUBLE^MAKER>+25 March 2004 - 05:58--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (<TROUBLE^MAKER> &#064; 25 March 2004 - 05:58)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jobauer@24 March 2004 - 19:41
<!--QuoteBegin-<TROUBLE^MAKER>

---

Quote:

---

@25 March 2004 - 00:11

http://www.digital-law-online.com/misc/ogilvie.htm

http://stlr.stanford.edu/STLR/Articl..._4/article.htm

---

:huh: What&#39;s your point ? This thread is not about software copyrights from a philosophical, theoretical, technical or legal point of view...

we are -were- talking about the EU decision and its consequences for Microsoft.

I guess you deserve your name, huh <_<

Anyway, I&#39;m outta here. So long

---

That&#39;s the reason why the USA will tell the EU to eat a sh&#33;t sandwich and shut the Fuk up. [/b][/quote]
The EU is a bigger market than the USA (both in terms of potential sales (numbers) and profit per individual sale).....there is no way M&#036; will leave Europe to its competitors.

That being the case, there is really no need to try and extradite anyone...

they dont pay the fine, they stop trading here, the shareholders lynch the directors for the plummit in M&#036; stock price, justice is done.

they pay the fine, appeal..if they win they win, if they lose they lose...its no big deal.


The "Big Issue" is the bundling of Media players and the opening of source code to competitors... I think this is what Trouble^Maker is trying to say....hence the links.

If they sue microsoft for monopolising .wmv -wmp9

should

they then not sue Apple for monopolising .mov thru Quicktime

would the EU have sue apple had they installed Macs?

(theres probably tons of other progies which have their own monopolised .extension and application)

??