US petition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobbes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

You really are Jack Nicholson with this, "You can't handle the truth" mentality. I do want to know what they are doing and I want it stopped if they are torturing folk.

I do not want people torturing others on my behalf. FFS you even want the people who are doing it to be self regulating.

It's obviously a cultural thing. It seems to be chaps from the USA who are more able to accept torture (in specific circumstances). Am I correct in saying that your Govt will not legislate against the "right" to torture.

---

Why would you make a sweeping statement about chaps in the US based on the comments of 2 or 3 people, particularly when an American started the thread. I suppose the Scottish chaps just like to make sweeping generalizations without proper statistical data.:wacko:

Be assured that torture is actively practiced by all governments in times of conflict, despite what you have on your piece of paper.

Our example:

You have a building filled with people and a bomb attached to the door. You have the man who set the bomb and he knows the number to turn the bomb off.

What do you do? That writing on a silly piece of paper seems so meaningless, as you watch the helpless trapped victims press their faces against the window glass, hoping for salvation.

Please answer this very specific question, which you have avoided about 5 or 6 times now.

---

Quote:

---

You did not answer my questions regarding your children and whether you'd torture an offender to get your kids out of imminent danger either 'cause you would do nothing and you'd let your children die or you'd torture the offender thus reducing your argument to rubble.

---

Both Rat and JP know sometimes it is necessary. It's the dirty little fact of life that puts them in denial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

Fact of life.

---

So are poverty and slavery. Let's try to stop them as well.

---

We do not have to resort to poverty or slavery in a time of crisis.:dry:

I can see instances where one would have to resort to torture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobbes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

You really are Jack Nicholson with this, "You can't handle the truth" mentality. I do want to know what they are doing and I want it stopped if they are torturing folk.

I do not want people torturing others on my behalf. FFS you even want the people who are doing it to be self regulating.

It's obviously a cultural thing. It seems to be chaps from the USA who are more able to accept torture (in specific circumstances). Am I correct in saying that your Govt will not legislate against the "right" to torture.

---

Why would you make a sweeping statement about chaps in the US based on the comments of 2 or 3 people, particularly when an American started the thread.

---

It's more to do with the fact that your Govt will not legislate agains torture. They will not preclude it's use, when required. Whereas the EU specifically bans it's use and goes to the bother of saying that it is not allowed, even in times of national crisis.

Your Govt says that it is bad, but sometimes we might have to do it. The EU says that it is bad and that there is no circumstance where it is acceptable.

I think most people can see the difference.

Your argument is no more than, "the end justifies the means", no matter how much you want to spin it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Never

Its counter-productive.

You hear what the guy getting tortured thinks u want to hear, so the pain stops.

He will say he's guilty, even if he's innocent... and give "intelligence" that is just as useful.

---

Ohhh Rat....that's so sweeping. Are you saying now that torture never works?:lol: :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobbes

Why would you make a sweeping statement about chaps in the US based on the comments of 2 or 3 people, particularly when an American started the thread. I suppose the Scottish chaps just like to make sweeping generalizations without proper statistical data.:wacko:

Be assured that torture is actively practiced by all governments in times of conflict, despite what you have on your piece of paper.

Our example:

You have a building filled with people and a bomb attached to the door. You have the man who set the bomb and he knows the number to turn the bomb off.

What do you do? That writing on a silly piece of paper seems so meaningless, as you watch the helpless trapped victims press their faces against the window glass, hoping for salvation.

Please answer this very specific question, which you have avoided about 5 or 6 times now.

---

Quote:

---

You did not answer my questions regarding your children and whether you'd torture an offender to get your kids out of imminent danger either 'cause you would do nothing and you'd let your children die or you'd torture the offender thus reducing your argument to rubble.

---

Both Rat and JP know sometimes it is necessary. It's the dirty little fact of life that puts them in denial.

---

The fact that you see torture as necessary speaks volumes about you, not other people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

So are poverty and slavery. Let's try to stop them as well.

---

We do not have to resort to poverty or slavery in a time of crisis.:dry:

---

However they are facts of life, which is your "justification" for torture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobbes

Why would you make a sweeping statement about chaps in the US based on the comments of 2 or 3 people, particularly when an American started the thread.

---

It's more to do with the fact that your Govt will not legislate agains torture. They will not preclude it's use, when required. Whereas the EU specifically bans it's use and goes to the bother of saying that it is not allowed, even in times of national crisis.

Your Govt says that it is bad, but sometimes we might have to do it. The EU says that it is bad and that there is no circumstance where it is acceptable.

I think most people can see the difference.

Your argument is no more than, "the end justifies the means", no matter how much you want to spin it.

---

It's a good thing EU politicians would never lie!

Like when they say the same thing about slavery, yet the UK is a human trafficing hub for the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

Your argument is no more than, "the end justifies the means", no matter how much you want to spin it.

---

No, it is the head on head collision of philsophy with reality. It is testing the limits of a statement.

It is like saying that abortion is wrong. Then realizing special circumstances such as rape or when the pregnancy will cause complications that will mean the death of the mother.

I created for you a scenario which you refuse to answer. Please answer it. You are not in your comfy home, telling interweb people how they should act, but in the battlefield, in the above scenario.

Ready, action!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

We do not have to resort to poverty or slavery in a time of crisis.:dry:

---

However they are facts of life, which is your "justification" for torture.

---

They sure aren't necessary.:ermm:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobbes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Agrajag

Your argument is no more than, "the end justifies the means", no matter how much you want to spin it.

---

No, it is the head on head collision of philsophy with reality. It is testing the limits of a statement.

It is like saying that abortion is wrong. Then realizing special circumstances such as rape or when the pregnancy will cause complications that will mean the death of the mother.

I created for you a scenario which you refuse to answer. Please answer it. You are not in you comfy home telling interweb people how they should act, but in the battlefield, in the above scenario.

Ready, action!

---

He never answered the question about abortion that I posed ages ago.

An aside..
If abortion is wrong then in cases of rape or incest, abortion is still wrong 'cause you are killing a child.

Actually I have it wrong as far as him answering. JP answered that stuff like that has to be taken on case by case basis.........