Bush's Speech..

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Originally posted by j2k4+20 March 2003 - 18:00--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 20 March 2003 - 18:00)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--puremindmatters@20 March 2003 - 17:51
So you are saying attacking sovereign countries without provocation or UN mandate will actually improve your image in that region?

Or in the world, for that matter?

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Don&#39;t know if your question was directed my way, but I&#39;ll respond anyway:

Certain situations arise wherein concerns about "image" recede to a secondary status; the U.S. (and the U.K.) believe the problem of Saddam, his repression of his people, his flouting of U.N. sanctions, and his connections to terrorism cause our concern to rise to a level that supercedes worries about our reputation, at least in the short term. Efforts will be made afterwards to repair our reputation, but I am not a diplomat, so I can&#39;t address that. I believe our immediate concerns will be borne out and vindicated by the outcome of the war.
Be patient-that is what&#39;s left to us for the time being. [/b][/quote]
You can replace the phrase in the Brackets with Tony Blaire.

The Majority of the UK is against the war.


Unfortunatly, due to our system of Government, even if EVERY elected member of Parliament was against the war, Mr Blaire could still use the Royal Perogative and declare war.

As it is, Mr Blaire is unlikely to stay leader of the Labour Party after this session of Parliament.

A lot of Labour MPs are facing de-selection over supporting him, and the ones that arent (listening to the opinions being voiced) will not be voted in again while.....and i quote "That Murdering Bastard and his Cronies are in control of the Party"

This quote is one of many Ive been getting from MEMBERS of the Labour Party...in their Stronghold (The North East of England)........I believe the &#39;floating voter&#39; is even more outraged.

Im a Union activist, and have often campaigned for the Labour Party....after receiving these comments on the streets, well even some of the &#39;New Labour&#39; people of our constituancy party are asking very awkward questions of our MP.

It looks like he may join the many that will be out of a job come the next election..... and quite frankly, like a lot of my Trade Union colleagues (and the Trade Unions fund the Labour Party) I am seriously thinking of leaving the Party and voting LibDem.....they seem to be the best bet.

At least they tell you UP FRONT how they are going to rip you off....and are in favour of a war ONLY with UN sanction.

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Originally posted by puremindmatters@20 March 2003 - 19:59

If you want to fight it, you should care for removing the root causes and not the symptoms. And you sure don&#39;t do that with weapons.

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Okay-here&#39;s YOUR chance to convince me.

Let&#39;s hear it; tell me how?

1) I want to know what the root causes are.

2) I want YOU to tell me how to address/fix the problem.

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Originally posted by puremindmatters@20 March 2003 - 19:59
What you still don&#39;t want to hear is that these people think they are right, have a right to do what they do, and do it for a greater good.
Those were my references to the IRA - they believed the English had no right being in their country, so they struck them with any means possible.
So are the Palestinian terror groups - they believe that the Israeli have no right doing what they are doing, and attack them with any means possible.
Bin Laden and other terrorist groups believe that the US have no business being in the middle east, and strike you with any means possible. In their eyes, it&#39;s a just and noble cause. In your eyes it&#39;s a just and noble cause to "liberate" countries of your choice, whether they want it our not, because you have the military means to do it.

I don&#39;t blame anyone for believing in what they believe, or dying for that. I just think it&#39;s a bit naive to think that you can fight something like terrorism by attacking sovereign countries which may or may not have anything to do with the attacks of 9/11.

If you want to fight it, you should care for removing the root causes and not the symptoms. And you sure don&#39;t do that with weapons.

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Don&#39;t misunderstand me. I don&#39;t think it is a "just and noble cause to "liberate" countries of your choice, whether they want it our not, because you have the military means to do it.". Not one bit. Contrary to what other countries think, the US is not imperialistic and has no measures on land or oil in the Middle East. The American people would be outraged. To be frank, nobody give a damn about it, except to ensure that it doesn&#39;t endanger the US and the free way of life in general. We want nothing to do with the place. Too hot and dry&#33; ;)

What I do think is that it is a just and noble cause to protect Americans. That&#39;s what I feel Americans care about.

Of course I realize that these people think they are right. They feel that they are so right they are willing to die for the cause and bring other people with them. But if terrorists, IRA, Palestinians, et. al. think they are so right, how much good do they feel they are doing for their cause now? Small victories to be sure.

It&#39;s a vicious cycle that we are in, certainly.

I would be curious here if those who are so "educated" that they know somehow about fighting terrorism would maybe postulate a better method other than attack?

Now that has nothing to do with Iraq, that statement, but man people love to tell us Americans how little we know.

Sorry, I myself may know just a little bit about the effects of terrorism and to me some of you people look naive as hell in your armchair statements.

Don&#39;t get offended by that statement if it doesn&#39;t concern you, straight up. However I keep hearing so many negative things about Americans that I have decided to keep quiet for months here mostly about this, but not today. Sorry folks, today I want to hear no more bullshit about things people who know nothing tell me I know nothing about when in fact I sure as hell do know exactly what death and tragedy look like. That is why I have made the statements before I have made which I am not going to quote.

I&#39;ll save the quoting for people who don&#39;t read entire threads and jump to conclusions, cause there are some people bound to make that mistake with me, completely miss the point.

The point were made, but again, I support our troops and I wonder how the world would feel if the US behaved like, I dunno, Russia, China or Germany have been known to act in the past.

Odd how those with the bloodies hands wish to point fingers. Russia is against war? Now when did that happen? Hmmmmm.

War has started, so maybe some decent counter opinions would be well received?

I found a great quote by somebody called Flashbunny, aptly stating a lot of my feelings about people on this matter:

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By [email protected]:
There are two distinct camps in the current anti-war movement. First, there is group that makes an intellectual and constitutional argument against military action in Iraq. Some of these are Libertarians and strict constitutionalists who argue that pre-emptive action is not allowed under the constitution, and, citing things like George Washington&#39;s farewell address, say we should avoid foreign entanglements and remain more as isolationists. These are the people with whom you can have a long, intellectually stimulating discussion while debating the pros and cons of your relative position.

However, the vast majority are the "No Blood For Oil" / "Never met an opportunity to bash a republican president they didn&#39;t like" crowd. Sadly, their positions are rooted in emotionalism. Either based in fear or just plain hatred, their debating techique is shouting slogans and calling their detractors &#39;Nazis&#39;.

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Describes a lot of my fellow Americans which really should show just how fucked up this world is, while the rest of the world judges all Americans they seem to have no idea of what is really going on in our borders.

If that&#39;s true stop judging, cause it&#39;s useless.

-SJ™

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Originally posted by al_birkett@18 March 2003 - 12:34

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The speech...

Made me clear its about the oil...

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jetje is right .... all this war is about is oil and I wish everyone else could see this too. One of the first objectives of the allied attack is to &#39;secure the oil fields&#39; yeah I bet &#39;secure&#39; my ass , secure them from anyone else apart from america. you&#39;d think that once in the process of attacking iraq the allies america would try and &#39;secure&#39; all these chemical and biological weapons he is suppose to have hiding under his bed.

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Just rereading thru this thread.

This is complete nonsense. Oil is not the reason. The reason they want to secure the oil is to pay for the rebuilding of iraq so American taxpayers don&#39;t have to. There has already been a trust fund set up to keep the proceeds of oil sales in for the benefit of the citizens of Iraq. (I can see it now, "sure, the &#39;benefits&#39; of the people of the US I bet.") Don&#39;t be so naive to think that the US can&#39;t just buy the whole damn country if they wanted to.

For all non-Americans, let&#39;s be clear on this point. In fact, we have huge oil reserves in Alaska that we are protecting because they lie above a national park. We&#39;ll probably go and dig that out.

You probably also think France and Russia isn&#39;t into this for the love of peace and diplomacy, right? And not the economic ties they have with Hussein?

Don&#39;t be naive - "it&#39;s all about oil". No American gives a shit about oil.

OK guys.

You all know that im anti-war.

But its happened OK?

You can all stop arguing about it......at least wait until its over before the disection starts...

Lets just all hope its over quickly, with minimum casualties and our boys (and some of our members) can come home.


And remember.....its the politicians, not the troops.....so support your soldiers, its a tough job. :angry:

:(

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Originally posted by j2k4+20 March 2003 - 20:12--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 @ 20 March 2003 - 20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--puremindmatters@20 March 2003 - 19:59

If you want to fight it, you should care for removing the root causes and not the symptoms.&nbsp; And you sure don&#39;t do that with weapons.

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Okay-here&#39;s YOUR chance to convince me.

Let&#39;s hear it; tell me how?

1) I want to know what the root causes are.

2) I want YOU to tell me how to address/fix the problem. [/b][/quote]
1) I think they are under the impression that the US has and still does interfere with conflicts which aren&#39;t theirs, to serve their own and just their own interests (at that particular moment in time). The Iraq was your ally once, the Taliban were your allies once.

They don&#39;t like the support for Israel in their conflict, which they feel might have enabled Israel to prolong the conflict, whereas otherwise a solution might have been found.

They feel that you are trying to impose your way of life and believes on them - which is basically undermining their own belief system, and stifling their own attempts of creating societies they feel are natural and just.


- just before you start flaming me, those aren&#39;t my opinions, but that&#39;s what I gathered when speaking to a few Saudis and Palestinians which I wouldn&#39;t count to the more extremestic wings, and they sure weren&#39;t terrorists.

2) I personally think the time for super powers on this planet are over. I believe that the UN should have more power, that the veto right should be abolished and that this should be the only gremium to have the right to intercede in conflicts. The time for crusades were over after the middle ages. If democracy is the best possible politcal system (and so it would seem) it would prevail sooner or later. The politics before the nineties had some sort of weird logic to it, mostly referred to as the balance of terror. There is no-one left to balance the power the US holds other than a world community or the wisdom not to wield it blindly and callously.

So basically, I would say if democracy and tolerance is what you believe your society is based on, understand and tolerate the differences in mentality, religious, economic and political structures in the world, and subject to the democratic principles governing the UN by strengthening and not undermining them. If there has to be a police force in this world, there is no reason why the US shouldn&#39;t be part of it, but it can&#39;t be law-giver, police, judge and jury at the same time.

I&#39;m sure that is not quite the answer you were looking for, but if I had any better ones, I would have probably stayed in politics.

The UN? Are you kidding me?

Okay then- the UN peacekeepers where in Kosova when the killing started, and they stood there. The UN was in Rwanda when the killing started, and they just stood there. Matter of fact seems like the UN is just a bunch of hand wrangling politicians who can come upon no decent solutions.

Didn&#39;t the UN create Israel? People blame the Israelis and Americans for that, but it was the UN. Who then can&#39;t seem to find anyway to make Palestinians stop blowing themselves up. If they stopped there would already be a Palestinian state.

In a perfect world we really would be a League of Nations, a United Nations what have you, but frankly that which makes people politicians seems to preclude that from being realistic.

Chew on that the next time you root ferverently against some sports team. It&#39;s like that in life too, you root for you and yours, and that is what the UN seems to be all about.

Also- sure America has been allies with crap regimes, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE GODDAMN WORLD. So stop casting stones, or are we not aware that China and Russia are owed billions by the Iraqis?

Politics, just like all this talk at these boards from people sitting with no fear in their countries, while a lot of us Americans have actually been afraid for the first time. Afraid and then judged by callous minded windbags.

-SJ™

WOW&#33; u guys did a ton of discussing while i was at school. :P however, i didnt take the time to read it, but i did read the response to me by J2K4:

ok look. more than half the world is opposed this war. it is obvious that it is creating an even harsher image for the US (even tho the US thinks that in the end the image will improve). fighting terrorism about hatred against religious or other ethnic groups (ie. in israel) cannot be stopped easily (tho nor can any terrorism). "Kill all americans". think about why these ppl have this view. what image r they receiving? over the years the US has made many crucial mistakes regarding its foreign policies. "now im your friend and u should go fight iran. now i hate u and we will take u down." (puremind already stated this) this happened about afghanistan too, when they were fighting the soviets. the problem is the US&#39;s interaction with the rest of the world. (i hate to mention this again, but that article addressed this as well). countries dont like being treated as though they are inferior (whats that word again??). countries like steady allies. the US will probably never have another steady, long-term ally except for britain and canada. Bush made it even worse (now im talking from the article :P ). Clinton imposed several treaties around the world and now bush has stopped and withdrawn. he really didnt seem to have a care about israel (even tho he says he supports a palestinian state, he is reluctant). he is actually not familiar with the rest of the world at all. didnt he actually say once: "why does the world hate us?" (im not exactly positive). the way to stop hatred and fear of the US is like making a friend with with someone who admires yet fears you and does not want to be on your side. world interaction is absolutely necessary. not "do as we say or else". its all about how the us treats the rest of the world. Not all, but many americans are somewhat ignorant on how the rest of the world views the states. "look, where else can u come from nothing and become a millionaire?". true (also canada), but its not necessarily hatred of the people (tho they r seen as arrogant, i dont know many who r), but the government. the US needs to seriously revise their international policies and interactions, make ammends with the world, and create a good, wholesome image for themselves. Many americans (not necessarily u) think their country is the greatest and wonder why no one else thinks so. come on, like i said before, take another view. (im talking in general, not particularly to u j2k4).

also, thanks for the remark about my brains, well, u know, i can really help it. ;) :D

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Originally posted by SuperJude™@20 March 2003 - 21:33
The UN? Are you kidding me?

Okay then- the UN peacekeepers where in Kosova when the killing started, and they stood there. The UN was in Rwanda when the killing started, and they just stood there. Matter of fact seems like the UN is just a bunch of hand wrangling politicians who can come upon no decent solutions.

Didn&#39;t the UN create Israel? People blame the Israelis and Americans for that, but it was the UN. Who then can&#39;t seem to find anyway to make Palestinians stop blowing themselves up. If they stopped there would already be a Palestinian state.

In a perfect world we really would be a League of Nations, a United Nations what have you, but frankly that which makes people politicians seems to preclude that from being realistic.

Chew on that the next time you root ferverently against some sports team. It&#39;s like that in life too, you root for you and yours, and that is what the UN seems to be all about.

Also- sure America has been allies with crap regimes, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE GODDAMN WORLD. So stop casting stones, or are we not aware that China and Russia are owed billions by the Iraqis?

Politics, just like all this talk at these boards from people sitting with no fear in their countries, while a lot of us Americans have actually been afraid for the first time. Afraid and then judged by callous minded windbags.

-SJ™

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So your solution is that any given country can do what they want, attack who they want when it feels right and proper, or are at least powerful enough that no-one could stop them?

You can argue with islamic world about their perceptions about the US, as I said, I was recounting what I heard in several discussions I attended. I think terror is as wrong as any military conflict, which isn&#39;t an act of self-defence.

Sorry, about so far the US seemed to be part of the UN (until now) and has started several campaigns with their approval. They were member of the UN when the Israel state was created and had the right to veto.

This is the point which really confuses me in your argumentation - the US is still part of the UN, and if you say it is to weak, who is reponsible for that? The fact that there are different countries with different opinions, or that is a political gremium? And if the desire for military conflict is decreasing in most countries of the world, and that is reflected in that gremium, that is wrong?
Are you saying, fuck the politicians, let the military handle the world affairs again?