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OOOOh I repeat; which one was a lie ?Quote:
Originally posted by Billy_Dean@26 October 2003 - 18:53
You really are a dickhead JP, in one post you didn't know, in another you did.
I repeat; which one was a lie?
:)
You tell me where you were born and I'll tell you.
You show me yours and I'll show you mine.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mod he called me a dickhead, is that allowed.
Not so, Rat.Quote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@25 October 2003 - 17:55
That is hogwash j2k4.
The range is "Right" eg Facists to "Left" eg Communists.
Everything is within this global range, which is why i state that the "Left" is right of centre "In Israel"....
Without this, then people would assume that "Left" = Socialist.
Or is this what you wish people to believe? That the "Centre" there is the same as that which is Globaly recognised.
There is no "Socialist Party" in Israel, just as there is no "Socialist Party" in the USA... (or in the UK at the moment, IMHO)
note:
By "No Socialist Party", i refer to an electable party.... ie influential in the Affairs of State.
As you choose to define a "global" range, maybe so, but perhaps a range might exist within a range?
I know historically that Mussolini ran a Fascist government in Italy.
I have seen posting in this forum which seeks to legitimately equate GWB and our current government with that brand of fascism, and similarly to liken GWB to Hitler in some nationalist sense.
If that is what you believe to be true, I humbly submit you are off your nut-if not, pardon me, please.
Hell, most of you don't have the slightest idea what a conservative is, you only know what you've been told by your media; I shouldn't wonder why we misunderstand each other constantly.
Also:
No matter what you believe, America has historically been a target of Communism, as we have been most at odds over the years with the old USSR and Communist China.
The remnants of the philosophy exist today in the liberal "wing" of our Democrat party.
I know what "LEFT" means politically-thank you very much.
CONSERVATIVE:
Tending to preserve established traditions or institutions and to resist or oppose any changes in these: as, a conservative political party.
LIBERAL:
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, politics, etc.; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive: now sometimes disinguished from progressive,as connoting somewhat more consevatism.
Source = Websters Dictionary
You appear to agree with these definitions at times
:rolleyes:
I disagree...
I think modern Conservatives have forgotton the meaning.....
Ah-Quote:
Originally posted by Rat Faced@26 October 2003 - 17:02
CONSERVATIVE:
Tending to preserve established traditions or institutions and to resist or oppose any changes in these: as, a conservative political party.
LIBERAL:
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, politics, etc.; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive: now sometimes disinguished from progressive,as connoting somewhat more consevatism.
Source = Websters Dictionary
You appear to agree with these definitions at times
:rolleyes:
I disagree...
I think modern Conservatives have forgotton the meaning.....
I should have known better.
Anent "liberal":
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, politics, etc.; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive: now sometimes disinguished from progressive,as connoting somewhat more conservatism.
So, then-"reform" and "progress" are hereby given the untarnished (and untarnishable) gleam of being positive in all circumstances and cases, and are therefore uniformly worthy of our striving.
And now "conservative":
Tending to preserve established traditions or institution and to resist or oppose any changes in these: as a conservative political party.
Ergo, as conservatism is opposite of liberalism, it must be, by process of deduction, bad, and therefore opposed on all fronts.
Rat, there is so much more to the argument than that-must you default to a "dictionary" definition to preserve the simplicity of your presumptions about conservatives?
This will have to be continued tomorrow. ;)
If its any consolation J2.....
I think both meanings have been twisted, especially in the last few decades...
Your "Left" (The Democrats) would have been closer to our "Centre" for most of last Century.....
It was the liberals that demanded independance from Britain... (using the USA as an example)
In this day and age... it would be the conservatives that would do something so nationalistic ;)
Somewhere along the road, the word "Liberal" became dirty in the USA.
In the UK "Liberals" are traditionally the Centre Road, blending the best of both Right and Left. Now, it appears they are the "Left" in the UK....despite not having actually changed their policies at all.......
dont figure.
:rolleyes:
I think partly the problem is in trying to determine a global definition of Liberal and Conservative.
For the UK, the Liberals were very much the party of the middle classes or new money. They believed in personal freedom and the right to conduct free enterprise unfettered. The Conservative Party was the party of Land and Crown. It also tended to take a paternalistic interest in the working classes (who had no vote) and deplored the dehumanising effects of the dark satanic mills of the industrialists. This was at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, circa 1780.
However, over time the parties changed their positions somewhat. New money bought into the old systems of prestige and power and increasingly the Conservative ranks filled with the industrialists. The Liberals, on the other hand, and perhaps in response to both a wider franchise and the rise of the workers parties moved to embrace a greater range of social policies. It was the Liberals who introduced the pensions and a number of other benefits at the turn of the 20th century.
It is not easy to translate these definitions of Conservative and Liberal to the US political map. These terms have developed differently there. I believe the term Liberal means something quite different to an American than it does to us. Here Liberals are Clement Freud, Jo Grimmond and David Steel. Gentlemen with gentle policies. No UK paper would try to vilify a poltician by calling him an out and out liberal - it would mean nothing. Now "Red Ken" or "Militant Trot", these are the words that get hurled around our more left of centre bogeymen.
In short, every country has a range of poltical spectrums. I am sorry I used the term left and right with regards Israel but I felt they were relevant within that political spectrum and had not intended to make them directly comparable to any other country. I believe an Israeli would understand that If I said left I meant the Labour Party and by right the Likud (or something more extreme). Are there any Israelis on here who could please correct me if I am wrong?
Rat and Biggles-
Both of your last posts were indicative of my view as to the "non-transferablity" of such terms from country-to-country.
Things don't mean what they did formerly; we certainly seem to agree on that; If John F. Kennedy were alive today, he could certainly run to the right of GWB.
If I were alive in the 18th or 19th century, I'm not sure where I'd fall.
Oddly enough, Abraham Lincoln would be considered an extreme racist today.
Let's continue this-I should be able to spend some time tomorrow. :)
J2k4
I dont think its the "non transferability" of views, so much as language.
There is a definite "Left" and "Right" with descernable points, that can be transfered to describe the politics of differing countries.
It is the definition of the terms themselves which mean different things in different countries, this causes confusion and mis-communication.
eg
"Left" for you = Democrat.
"Left" and "Liberal" seem to be the same... again to you.
To me a "Democrat" (US Political Party) is not "Left", although it is a lot closer to "Left" than the "Republican" party in the USA.
As predominantly the posters in this thread appear to speak Englsh as a 1st language, i dread to think what non-English speakers make of it.
:blink:
Maybe its time to argue out some definitions, for use in this Forum...
It would be Ironic to find out that some people that are at each others throats, may just be arguing over symantics (although i very much doubt it)
:lol:
Rat Face
I would agree with that. In much of Europe the centre right is known as the Christian Democratic Party. This may have seemed like a good idea back in the 1940s but maybe something of a handicap in the more multi-cultural Europe of today. Perhaps some of our European friends, who by and large, have a better command of the English language than some of the erstwhile native speakers on here, could contribute their thoughts on the subject.
I like your new avatar by the way, give me that old time religion. :)
Edited for yet more typos. :(
Why thankyou Biggles...
BTW
http://www.pcs.org.uk/images/pcs_logo.gif
You with this lot too?
;)