Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by Busyman
Well now since they don't have to learn English then this whole argument is a wash and part of the problem...them not learning English.
perhaps you should take an English remedial class because you seem to be having a problem yourself
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Originally Posted by vidcc
And I've said they should learn English to become a citizen
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I don't have a problem with Comcast's Spanish Pack, just merely pointing out that many hispanics not having to learn English is the object of marketing gurus attention.
America is placating them.
no, that is a business seizing and exploiting an opportunity....how is that "America"
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I am forced to learn their language if I want to communicate in a place of business. Hamburger and fries please. H-A-M-B-U-R-G-E-R A-N-D F-R-I-E-S. :angry:
Well just don't go to that outlet...you are not forced to.... if a company loses customers because they can't understand then the company will fail because of bad business choices....It's not rocket science
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
perhaps you should take an English remedial class because you seem to be having a problem yourself
no, that is a business seizing and exploiting an opportunity....how is that "America"
Well just don't go to that outlet...you are not forced to.... if a company loses customers because they can't understand then the company will fail because of bad business choices....It's not rocket science
Nice shot at me Mr I'm DYsfFuckiNgleXIc. :dry: I didn't dispute your "learning English" statement. YOU read....see my statement in bold.. :dry:
Going to another outlet inconveniences me. What happens when the "other" outlet is the same? (which has happened in Hyattsville, MD)
America is run on capitalism and the oppurtunity furthers those few in that business. Politicians also make up part of America and placate to the same demographic.
Them not having to learn English is placating to them. Since they can get jobs here and have industry change to their liking their is not much incentive to learn English. They may be content to mow hobbes' lawn or do many other jobs at less than minimum wage which, in numerous cases, gives better quality of life than they previously had.
I say change the law and THEN let the chips fall.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
India has it's own flag.
You mean its still called India! :ohmy: English is the only thing that is holding them together. :rolleyes:
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
And i've said they should learn English to become a citizen...i have also said that if you wish to just speak one language that is your choice. Who has suggested that you would or should be forced to learn a second language?.
Then what is the move to make Spanish an "official" language in aid of?
If doing so means (as it most certainly does) that all public notifications and signage will present in both languages, the unavoidable effect will be that many choose one OR the other out of habit/laziness, which are both major components of the human condition.
No race of people on this earth go about habitually doing things that are not required in order to survive.
The goal is a bilingual society/culture, and the effort to bring this about is handicapped, NOT AIDED, by this measure.
This is inarguable.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by j2k4
Then what is the move to make Spanish an "official" language in aid of?
If doing so means (as it most certainly does) that all public notifications and signage will present in both languages, the unavoidable effect will be that many choose one OR the other out of habit/laziness, which are both major components of the human condition.
No race of people on this earth go about habitually doing things that are not required in order to survive.
The goal is a bilingual society/culture, and the effort to bring this about is handicapped, NOT AIDED, by this measure.
This is inarguable.
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
Secondly I am not arguing that we should have a second official language at this time in history. As it stands the there wouldn't be anywhere near enough people that speak a different language other than English...but who knows about 50-100 years from now... English may still be the official language but it might be the lesser used.....
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
But let's say suddenly we did get a second official language, do you think that you as an adult would be compelled by law to learn it? do you think that in AMERICA a law would be passed to make you put things in both languages? After all we don't even have laws where the total price of goods is shown inclusive of tax. Do you think it would make any difference at all to your life? Those that want to learn it will those that don't will not...that would be their loss.
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
Hobbes and busy
You are showing my point about "they should become us". The only division is because of your attitude. Government puts official forms into different languages because they are often complex. There are Americans that speak only "English" that have trouble understanding some of those forms. What road signs are in two languages? I live in this bi-lingual state and I have seen none apart from a few right on the boarders in TX,AZ and CA which are more for the benefit of tourists than immigrants (this happens the world over)
instead of seeing an opportunity to gain, you see an attack on your own myopic world. instead of thinking of how to profit from something you close your eyes, cover your ears and shout "nonononono"
the point about 57 different languages is complete bollocks and I said it would be unworkable.
hobbes said you studied languages at school..... do you remember much? would you be more fluent if you got the chance to speak those languages.
Your view that people wouldn't bother learning a second language says more about your own myopic attitude. I know only one Spanish speaker that isn't fluent in English, and she is working hard to change it.....why... because only government forms are in both languages and she needs English to do everything else. She can communicate in spoken word reasonably but the written word is harder for her.
Vidcc,
I read this post and I feel you haven't listen to a word I said.
When I talked about my Ukrainian friend, where did I ask him to become us? I said this ability gave him a sense of uniqueness. So I say you have stopped listening and starting arguing.
I have never stated that I felt that 2 languages was an "attack". I said it helps no one, particularly those who don't speak English. I'm going to be fine, but if you live in a town where everything is in Spanish, you are pretty much locked in there.
Why do we add Spanish as official and not Chinese or any other? If we add Spanish, we should add them all. If we don't add them all, why should we add Spanish?
One country, one official language so that everyone can communicate wherever we roam in our own land. They have done it in India, they have done it in China, by creating a single language for all to speak, whilst the locals maintain their regional languages. My Indian co-worker can't understand his wife's regional dialect at all, they met simply because they spoke the common language.
This language thing to me is no threat whatsoever. It actually isolates those who which to live their lives in their native tongue. It promotes isolated communities, like little Havana or the multitude of Chinatowns. To have the government cater to these special interest helps to preserve isolation, not encourage intergration.
You might need to come to San Antonio sometime and meet the thousands of people who don't speak a word of English. They are not striving to learn, not in the least, and I don't think that it a good idea to encourage this behavior. Thankfully their children learn English in schools, but if we allowed schools to teach in Spanish, where would they learn? My view is not myopic, I observe this everyday. People tend to do exactly what they need to do to get by.
I find this whole myopic view thing as petty and argumentative. We have a country, with one currency and we can all communicate with one common language.
I have yet to see how a second official language helps anyone.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
I am arguing that it would be beneficial and not a hindrance for any country to have the ability to communicate in more than one tongue.
But let's say suddenly we did get a second official language, do you think that you as an adult would be compelled by law to learn it? do you think that in AMERICA a law would be passed to make you put things in both languages? After all we don't even have laws where the total price of goods is shown inclusive of tax. Do you think it would make any difference at all to your life? Those that want to learn it will those that don't will not...that would be their loss.
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
Why should people learn 2 languages when 1 works perfectly well. That is adding pointless complexity.
India has hundreds of dialects, but are able to unite though a single "official" one. This does not mean that people speak the official ones in casual conversation or in their homes, but it does mean that you can travel anywhere you please and still be understood.
This is simply about fostering communication, not about fearing some overthrow of your sacred tongue.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by hobbes
Why do we add Spanish as official and not Chinese or any other? If we add Spanish, we should add them all. If we don't add them all, why should we add Spanish?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Firstly Spanish is just the one used in the example, however it is probably the one to go for because of the amount that already speak it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
One country, one official language so that everyone can communicate wherever we roam in our own land. They have done it in India, they have done it in China, by creating a single language for all to speak, whilst the locals maintain their regional languages. My Indian co-worker can't understand his wife's regional dialect at all, they met simply because they spoke the common language.
This language thing to me is no threat whatsoever. It actually isolates those who which to live their lives in their native tongue. It promotes isolated communities, like little Havana or the multitude of Chinatowns. To have the government cater to these special interest helps to preserve isolation, not encourage intergration.
You might need to come to San Antonio sometime and meet the thousands of people who don't speak a word of English. They are not striving to learn, not in the least, and I don't think that it a good idea to encourage this behavior. Thankfully their children learn English in schools, but if we allowed schools to teach in Spanish, where would they learn? My view is not myopic, I observe this everyday. People tend to do exactly what they need to do to get by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
The only real difference I see would be that our children would be taught the two languages by law instead of choice.... so within a generation the nation as a whole will be able to speak both..thus removing your divisive stance, and having a second language is not a hindrance.
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Originally Posted by hobbes
I find this whole myopic view thing as petty and argumentative. We have a country, with one currency and we can all communicate with one common language.
I have yet to see how a second official language helps anyone.
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language. Look at the world of commerce today..where do you see the growth heading and what do you think the USAs standing will be on the international market in say 50 years. At the moment we are at the top but we are losing our grip as the wolves at the bottom of the hill get stronger.
Your arguements just look at today...I am looking at the future and the younger generation.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language. Look at the world of commerce today..where do you see the growth heading and what do you think the USAs standing will be on the international market in say 50 years. At the moment we are at the top but we are losing our grip as the wolves at the bottom of the hill get stronger.
Your arguements just look at today...I am looking at the future and the younger generation.
There is no point to additional official languages. It encourages the development of and isolation provided within pockets of society that wish only to create a little version of home and are assisted by our own government.
It adds nothing to our country as a whole and encourages separation.
You have failed to show that having one language requires a second. Why should our children learn two languages when 1 is fine? And if they do learn more than 1, which one?
And just because they learn more than 1 language in school, why should that be recognized as official.
It is pointless duplicity.
If I spoke fluent Spanish as well as English, it would not hurt me, but I have better use for my time then learning another language when 1 is sufficient. Maybe I would rather learn a second career than spend my time learning a language for no apparent benefit or reason.
By the way Vidcc, your recommendation that Busyman receive remedial English tells me you are simply arguing not discussing as you were the one asking tolerance for those with dyslexia.
Re: forgetting your roots
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Originally Posted by vidcc
And i have yet to see a valid arguement how it would hinder anyone having the ability to speak more than one language.
And here lies the crux of our different perception, vid.
There is no argument, "valid" or otherwise, against learning a second language; there is not, however, any compelling reason for doing so, and neither is there proper entree for the state or federal government to elevate any other language to official or "co-equal" status.
It should be apparent that anyone, if asked, would aver the ability to speak a second language would be of benefit somehow, but to give it state sanction absent a concommitant requirement (which would be oppressive) to learn it is illogical at best.
