Palestine Or Israel?

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Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 14:26


You seem to be determined to go from one extreme to the other, Israel either kills people indiscriminately or the USA removes all support. Those arent the only 2 options as I'm sure your aware.

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I was only trying to simplify the debate, but that doesn't seem to have worked.
Let's try again...

Let's say the US does as both you and Rat wish.
What then?

Since neither of you have responded to that , I shall tell you what I think happens.

One day, one week, one month later, another 15 year old human bomb steps on a Israeli bus and blows up innocent Israeli civilians.
The Palestinian "freedom fighters" have raised the intentional targeting of civilians to an art form and I wouldn't expect them to abandon a tactic that through your intervention has just caused the Israeli's to lose their biggest supporter.
Who applies responding pressure to the Palestinians now?
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iran?
Britain?

Hurry up with your answer, there is a psycho teenager strapping on a plastique filled vest as we ponder.

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Originally posted by clocker
I was only trying to simplify the debate, but that doesn't seem to have worked.

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Precisely, you have simplified it to the point where your arguing "what if this happened?" when it would never happen.

Ratfaced and I are not saying the US should remove all support.

We're saying they shouldnt just sit back and do nothing while their support is used to kill civilians. What is so wrong with that?

If Israel stopped killing civilians, ended its 36 year occupation, gave back the land they dont own and destroyed the illegal settlements and the Palestinians still wouldnt accept it, then no one would have any sympathy for them. If the Palestinians did accept it then great.

Why are you so determined that Israel should continue to kill innocent people? You can hardly take the moral highground with such an attitude.

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Originally posted by evilbagpuss@18 June 2003 - 15:03


Precisely, you have simplified it to the point where your arguing "what if this happened?" when it would never happen.

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You seem awfully certain of that.
Based on what, if I might ask?

My supposition was based on historical fact. The scenario I described has been repeated countless times already.
If the US were to withhold/moderate it's support for Israel, who then, does the same to Palestine?

Respondevous sil vous plait

Why not forget the history just for a moment and find out what the latest body counts is? Who ever has the highest body count could be classed as the victim?

Then we could all give whichever that is, our support, even if only temporarily!

But should it be point = point ? Which is worth more a Palestinian or an Israeli?

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Originally posted by clocker
You seem awfully certain of that.
Based on what, if I might ask?

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Oh you know, the last 30 years, little things like that. Also any President who did such a thing would be comitting political suicide, as I'm sure you already know. If the US was going to remove it's support, it would have done so by now in response to some of the terrible atrocities Israel has committed.

Now... do you think it's possible for you to answer some of my questions? Here are a couple you seem to want to avoid like the plague.

1) We're saying they (the US) shouldnt just sit back and do nothing while their support is used to kill civilians on a regular basis. What is so wrong with that?

2) Why are you so determined that Israel should continue to kill innocent people?

Heres a new one for you.

3) Are you getting round to the point that the only way forward that doesnt involve the destruction of Israel is for Israel to continue killing Palestinian civilians till there are none left? No Palestinians no problem? Is that your attitude?

Say what you mean clocker, you seem to be skirting round the issue. The only solution I've seen you provide is to give them all loincloths and knives and let them get on with it. Hardly realistic.

Apart from that you seem to be inferring the good old tried and tested ethnic cleansing method. I hope Im mistaken in that inference.

Wee mouse is bang on with her ideas on religion and the twisting that's done to it for evil ends.



Seem to me America is an awful big place (believe its twice the size of Wales!)

Could they not find something of Israel or Palestine proportions where they could create and fit a new state?

Just a suggestion and not really much dafter than some of the baloney goin on in here!

It looks like peace may be near. now, will hamas ever back down? they are now the only roadblocks in this "road to peace".

the palestinian prime minister supports two separate states, and suprisingly so does sharone.

hamas & hezbolla... bastards :angry:

israel sees that these are the last people standing forcefully in the way, that is why they are trying to eliminate them.

obviously they could work close w/ the prime minister to bring hamas down.. :angry:

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Originally posted by evilbagpuss+18 June 2003 - 15:38--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss &#064; 18 June 2003 - 15:38)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker
You seem awfully certain of that.
Based on what, if I might ask?

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Oh you know, the last 30 years, little things like that. Also any President who did such a thing would be comitting political suicide, as I&#39;m sure you already know. If the US was going to remove it&#39;s support, it would have done so by now in response to some of the terrible atrocities Israel has committed.

Now... do you think it&#39;s possible for you to answer some of my questions? Here are a couple you seem to want to avoid like the plague.

1) We&#39;re saying they (the US) shouldnt just sit back and do nothing while their support is used to kill civilians on a regular basis. What is so wrong with that?

2) Why are you so determined that Israel should continue to kill innocent people?

Heres a new one for you.

3) Are you getting round to the point that the only way forward that doesnt involve the destruction of Israel is for Israel to continue killing Palestinian civilians till there are none left? No Palestinians no problem? Is that your attitude?

Say what you mean clocker, you seem to be skirting round the issue. The only solution I&#39;ve seen you provide is to give them all loincloths and knives and let them get on with it. Hardly realistic.

Apart from that you seem to be inferring the good old tried and tested ethnic cleansing method. I hope Im mistaken in that inference. [/b][/quote]
1.) Absolutely nothing

2.) I have never said in a single post that they should. I defy you to find a direct quote from my writing that does say that.

3.) No. Refer to #2.


This should leave you unable to say that I won&#39;t directly answer your questions. Although I feel that I have been providing direct answers to every question in the past, you have consistently refused to do the same. I attempted to leave no room for interpretation in this set of responses. Let&#39;s see if you are able to do the same.

1.) Based on my take on the past 30 years of history, I don&#39;t see any reason whatsoever to suppose that Palestine will abandon it&#39;s tactics of terror. Who will you have rein them in should Israel assume a passive/non-retaliatory stance?

2.) How do you propose to cut off the supply of funds/armaments from Palestine&#39;s Arab supporters?

3) Exactly what does your vision of the Palestinian state consist of? Where do you draw the borders?

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Originally posted by clocker+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1.) Absolutely nothing[/b]

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Then why the blatant hostility when Rat Faced and I made a simple point about not killing civilians? You started going off on one about the US removing all support.. teenagers with plastique vests etc. Almost as if the idea of not killing Palestinian civilians was utterly preposterous and would lead to the destruction of Israel in a matter of months.

You&#39;ve also implied that you cant fight terrorism without dropping missiles on apartment blocks. I cant be bothered to get the exact quote but I will if you wish.

See the above for your responses to questions 2 and 3.

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Originally posted by clocker+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1.) Based on my take on the past 30 years of history, I don&#39;t see any reason whatsoever to suppose that Palestine will abandon it&#39;s tactics of terror. Who will you have rein them in should Israel assume a passive/non-retaliatory stance?
[/b]

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This implies that Israeli retaliation has been "reining them in". The facts clearly do not support this view. If anything Israeli aggression increases the level of Palestinian terrorism not lessens it. Retaliation simply creates the &#39;tit for tat&#39; cycle of killing that has been going on for decades. At some point in time one side is going to have to be attacked and not retaliate. I would have thought that was obvious. How else can peace come about?

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@
2.) How do you propose to cut off the supply of funds/armaments from Palestine&#39;s Arab supporters?
[/quote]

I have never pretended to have the solution to that problem, but again dropping missiles on apartment blocks and killing women and children isnt going to solve it.

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker
3) Exactly what does your vision of the Palestinian state consist of? Where do you draw the borders? [/quote]

You dont ask for much do you? Again its not related to killing civilians but I guess it would involve giving back the occupied territories and destroying the illegal settlements. The finer details would have to be decided in peace talks between the two sides.

It&#39;s nice to see you dont support state sponsored atrocities or ethnic cleansing but I cant understand why its taken so many posts and so much anger on your part to get to this stage. It was your reaction to a simple point that made me think you believe Israel should continue its policy of atrocities and/or the lives of Palestinians are so worthless that they shouldnt even be brought into the equation.

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Then why the blatant hostility when Rat Faced and I made a simple point about not killing civilians?

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You think I&#39;ve been blatantly hostile? I will admit to trying to pin you down on your statements but that hardly rises to the level of hostility.

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You&#39;ve also implied that you cant fight terrorism without dropping missiles on apartment blocks. I cant be bothered to get the exact quote but I will if you wish.

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I will take this to mean that you searched and searched but could find no such quote. Primarily because I&#39;ve never said anything remotely like that.

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This implies that Israeli retaliation has been "reining them in". The facts clearly do not support this view. If anything Israeli aggression increases the level of Palestinian terrorism not lessens it. Retaliation simply creates the &#39;tit for tat&#39; cycle of killing that has been going on for decades. At some point in time one side is going to have to be attacked and not retaliate. I would have thought that was obvious. How else can peace come about?

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I agree. One of my main questions to you has consistently been: why not ask/demand this of the Palestinians?

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It&#39;s nice to see you dont support state sponsored atrocities or ethnic cleansing but I cant understand why its taken so many posts and so much anger on your part to get to this stage. It was your reaction to a simple point that made me think you believe Israel should continue its policy of atrocities and/or the lives of Palestinians are so worthless that they shouldnt even be brought into the equation.

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Again, you confuse disagreement with anger. Or perhaps it&#39;s my stunning condescencion - a trait I thought I had mastered until I ran into you. I now realize there are levels I hadn&#39;t envisioned.