Do you own a gun?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Damn!!! When I hear about shit like that it shows me that there is something wrong with society, child rearing, whateverthefuck.

The world is getting worse.

I notice how folk focus on Columbine yet we've had our gun laws for years before that shooting incident.

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Agreed. This is alot of what I was saying with my post the other day. Take away the guns, add other problems. Things have got to start in the home and schools, and parents need to be involved with both. It won't stop all of the problems, but I'm sure it will help.

I've see a lot of houses that have iron bars on the windows and iron security doors which make it impossible for an intruder to gain access without some pretty heavy tools, even then the occupants would be alerted by the noise and the resulting 911 would get the law enforcers on the scene before the would be intruder had chance to gain access. So there is an alternative to protect the occupants. Heck if I lived in an area that bad I would install a panic room rather than a gun, but then I am fortunate to be able to choose where I live and would choose not to live anywhere I would need to take any such action.

It could be argued that if one has methods that effectively prohibit access then to not use them but instead hold deadly weapon for protection that one is somehow "spoiling for a fight" :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SnnY

@rob: No I wouldn't, however, according to the article I found, they believed that one of the victims had stolen the item(s), and that was the reason they had for attacking.

It's mad as hell, but it sounds like they armed themselves to protect/retrieve their property.



source

Worked through google but the link may not work from here.

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If you read that closely, believed stole items he left

He left the items when he was asked to leave, the items were not stolen, that was his excuse for his actions, but remember, that case is some 9 months old,
and occured in Central Florida where I live, so I see bits on the news frequently

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Originally Posted by vidcc

I've see a lot of houses that have iron bars on the windows and iron security doors which make it impossible for an intruder to gain access without some pretty heavy tools, even then the occupants would be alerted by the noise and the resulting 911 would get the law enforcers on the scene before the would be intruder had chance to gain access. So there is an alternative to protect the occupants. Heck if I lived in an area that bad I would install a panic room rather than a gun, but then I am fortunate to be able to choose where I live and would choose not to live anywhere I would need to take any such action.

It could be argued that if one has methods that effectively prohibit access then to not use them but instead hold deadly weapon for protection that one is somehow "spoiling for a fight" :rolleyes:

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The story I posted above is not in a bad area, this is a typical story from anytown, USA. It just happens to be close enough to where I live that it made the top story

oic

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Originally Posted by SnnY

Had stolen items he (the attacker, is how I read it) had left in his grandmother's vacant house.

?

That's what the cops thought was the reason.

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Snny, please read that article more carefully. he said left in her grandmothers vacant house The house was not vacant, it was her ( Erin's ) grandparents vacation house. The guys had broken in thinking nobody would be there, and when someone did appear and they were asked to leave, the rest of the story happened within a couple days

d'oh

You are right.

It still isn't anything like a regular burglary though.


Bunch of armed psychos in a death squad of sorts.

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Originally Posted by RPerry

Agreed. This is alot of what I was saying with my post the other day. Take away the guns, add other problems. Things have got to start in the home and schools, and parents need to be involved with both. It won't stop all of the problems, but I'm sure it will help.

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Even in hobbes graph, we lead in non-firearm homicides (by a smaller margin nevertheless)

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Originally Posted by RPerry

Agreed. This is alot of what I was saying with my post the other day. Take away the guns, add other problems. Things have got to start in the home and schools, and parents need to be involved with both. It won't stop all of the problems, but I'm sure it will help.

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http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/...-homicides.gif

guns are a major problem that wouldn't just be replaced if they were outlawed. look at the graph. i'm sure some of the shooting victims wouldn't have died had they been beaten up rather than just shot.

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Originally Posted by SnnY

d'oh

You are right.

It still isn't anything like a regular burglary though.


Bunch of armed psychos in a death squad of sorts.

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As a victim, who knows what's going to be a regular burglary? :huh:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

As a victim, who knows what's going to be a regular burglary? :huh:

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you risk it. i'd rather risk it over hightening the risk involved in a regular burglary

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Originally Posted by RPerry

The story I posted above is not in a bad area, this is a typical story from anytown, USA. It just happens to be close enough to where I live that it made the top story

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I remember it from the news (if it's the same story)

I was commenting on the whole "but this is America not the Uk" theme. Given any bad thing happening we often see people being interviewed on the news saying things like "you just don't expect this sort of thing to happen here" so while I agree that NO place is safe I am referring to living in a place where such things as bars and guns would be considered "prudent" in daily life...if I was walking in Bagdad's streets I would wear body armour just to be prudent...if I took the same precaution here I would be silly... It's just about cost assessment if that makes sense.

Errm dave, they used pipes and baseball bats.



But rob, while a gun might have done some difference, there's no guarantee it had done anything for the victims, this was a whole gang of people attacking them. This was also a planned attack quite possibly with possible defensive measures in mind, it's quite odd that the police didn't do anything before it happened, judging by the report.

Big mistake there.

This is exceptional even for your country I think, judging by the media interest.


@busy: This may have been one of them situations we talked about where nothing would have saved the victims.

And the odds of it happening to you are incredibly small.

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

you risk it. i'd rather risk it over hightening the risk involved in a regular burglary

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My risk equals I stay alive. Your risk equals whatever the burglar decides to do with you.

As I said, in my house a burglar has plenty of chances to leave or not step foot in the house in the first place.

My gun ownership is otherwise irrelevent. :dry:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

My risk equals I stay alive. Your risk equals whatever the burglar decides to do with you.

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We already went through this once.

Now dave's gonna' say something along the lines of "unless pointing the gun at someone is what makes them kill you when they'd otherwise left you alone".

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Originally Posted by SnnY

Errm dave, they used pipes and baseball bats.



But rob, while a gun might have done some difference, there's no guarantee it had done anything for the victims, this was a whole gang of people attacking them. This was also a planned attack quite possibly with possible defensive measures in mind, it's quite odd that the police didn't do anything before it happened, judging by the report.

Big mistake there.

This is exceptional even for your country I think, judging by the media interest.


@busy: This may have been one of them situations we talked about where nothing would have saved the victims.

And the odds of it happening to you are incredibly small.

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Agreed.

They also had no weapon to do shit with since it was nonexistent.

I would try my best to scamper to 1 of 6. I still may not make it.

Gotta try though. ;)

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

http://worldpolicy.org/globalrights/...-homicides.gif

guns are a major problem that wouldn't just be replaced if they were outlawed. look at the graph. i'm sure some of the shooting victims wouldn't have died had they been beaten up rather than just shot.

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the one thing that graph doesn't show is who the killer/victim is. You do realize that most of the firearm problem is gang and/or drug related ?

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Originally Posted by SnnY

We already went through this once.

Now dave's gonna' say something along the lines of "unless pointing the gun at someone is what makes them kill you when they'd otherwise left you alone".

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If they come through my bedroom door they are toast.

I don't want it to be even close.

(I know what your saying about the baseball bats thingie but I treat intruders like they are, I don't know..ummmmm...DANGEROUS).

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Originally Posted by Busyman

My risk equals I stay alive. Your risk equals whatever the burglar decides to do with you.

As I said, in my house a burglar has plenty of chances to leave or not step foot in the house in the first place.

My gun ownership is otherwise irrelevent. :dry:

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you provoke a shootout. theres no risk for me unless its just an armed crazy person who wants to kill me. theres less of them than armed burglars i reckon, so you're more likely to die.

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Originally Posted by snny

Errm dave, they used pipes and baseball bats.

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yeah i know. i'm just saying it doesn't mean all people who would use a gun to kill someone would use a pipe or baseball bat if they couldn't get a gun

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Originally Posted by RPerry

the one thing that graph doesn't show is who the killer/victim is. You do realize that most of the firearm problem is gang and/or drug related ?

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But RP.....

[sarcasm]If we outlawed guns, they wouldn't have them.....especially in America. [/sarcasm]

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Agreed.

They also had no weapon to do shit with since it was nonexistent.

I would try my best to scamper to 1 of 6. I still may not make it.

Gotta try though. ;)

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It's still a gamble since... well you know what I'm gonna' say, so let's just pretend we had this debate again.


It's an odds thing, you think the odds of the gun getting you killed are smaller than the risk of someone homicidal breaking in.

I think the odds are favour of the reversed.


It's really what this entire debate is about.

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

you provoke a shootout. theres no risk for me unless its just an armed crazy person who wants to kill me. theres less of them than armed burglars i reckon, so you're more likely to die.



yeah i know. i'm just saying it doesn't mean all people who would use a gun to kill someone would use a pipe or baseball bat if they couldn't get a gun

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Really, what were wars fought with before firearms ?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

But RP.....

[sarcasm]If we outlawed guns, they wouldn't have them.....especially in America. [/sarcasm]

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yeah very funny.


let the gangs kill each other. if the graph is wieghted by them and not you you're safe aren't you

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

you provoke a shootout. theres no risk for me unless its just an armed crazy person who wants to kill me. theres less of them than armed burglars i reckon, so you're more likely to die.



yeah i know. i'm just saying it doesn't mean all people who would use a gun to kill someone would use a pipe or baseball bat if they couldn't get a gun

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Riiiiight....and you know that the intruder is armed? :lol: :lol:

You also know whether he has a gun versus a baseball bat. :lol: :lol:

Furthermore, if he does have a baseball bat everything's cool because it ain't a gun. :lol: :lol:

btw I minimize chances of shoot outs by maximizing my target area and minimize being a target

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Originally Posted by RPerry

Really, what were wars fought with before firearms ?

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oh so theres a war going on in america?

we aren't talking about wars here, we're talking about fights. theres a difference, if there were no guns and someone did you wrong you'd give them a good hiding.

with a gun its easier to just shoot them and kill them

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Originally Posted by Busyman

.... shot in the ass

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I thought you wouldn't shot someone in the back.

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

oh so theres a war going on in america?

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Several of them actually, War on drugs, War on Terrorism..... we have all kinds of wars, depending on who's elected President :blink:

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

oh so theres a war going on in america?

we aren't talking about wars here, we're talking about fights. theres a difference, if there were no guns and someone did you wrong you'd give them a good hiding.

with a gun its easier to just shoot them and kill them

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I have to agree there.

Columbine might have been isolated to a home where the victims were beaten with baseball bats and wouldn't have been at school.

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Originally Posted by JPaul

I thought you wouldn't shot someone in the back.

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Correct(ol). It's in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Dude I have been in room full-o-folks that packed guns and couldn't have been in the least bit nervous.

They all had "instant death" in their coats. :dry:

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Entry in "sad post of the year" contest.

What, I laughed my arse off at that one.

Sorry busy.

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Originally Posted by Busyman

Riiiiight....and you know that the intruder is armed? :lol: :lol:

You also know whether he has a gun versus a baseball bat. :lol: :lol:

Furthermore, if he does have a baseball bat everything's cool because it ain't a gun. :lol: :lol:

btw I minimize chances of shoot outs by maximizing my target area and minimize being a target

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i'm not sure what you're talking about


if a burglar was going to attack me with a baseball bat in my house i reckon i could fight em. i know the ins and outs of my house so i could handle them.

if a burglar came at me with a gun i'd do what they say, i don't want to aggravate them.

i dont know what to make of that last line

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Originally Posted by SnnY

What, I laughed my arse off at that one.

Sorry busy.

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The bad part is that it's true. :(

Sad indeed.

@dave: Didn't you and ben try beating the shit out of the bike-thieves?

On camera even.

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Originally Posted by RPerry

Several of them actually, War on drugs, War on Terrorism..... we have all kinds of wars, depending on who's elected President :blink:

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those are "wars" between the government and the people. never people vs people, unless you count gang wars, but thats their own stupid fault you dont have to get involved.

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

i'm not sure what you're talking about


if a burglar was going to attack me with a baseball bat in my house i reckon i could fight em. i know the ins and outs of my house so i could handle them.

if a burglar came at me with a gun i'd do what they say, i don't want to aggravate them.

i dont know what to make of that last line

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I wouldn't "confront" intruders to find out what's what.

This is not the movies. I would literally defend myself and not look for a fight.

If I go down, what about my family? :(

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Originally Posted by SnnY

@dave: Didn't you and ben try beating the shit out of the bike-thieves?

On camera even.

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they didn't have guns though.

if i had a gun i could have shot them, then they'd be a statistic.

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Originally Posted by GepperRankins

they didn't have guns though.

if i had a gun i could have shot them, then they'd be a statistic.

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I can't shoot someone taking my bike. :(

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Originally Posted by Busyman

I wouldn't "confront" intruders to find out what's what.

This is not the movies. I would literally defend myself and not look for a fight.

If I go down, what about my family? :(

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what if its your kid coming through that door? you were just defending yourself?

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Originally Posted by Busyman

I can't shoot someone taking my bike. :(

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i thought you said you had a good aim, or do you keep your guns in the panniers?