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Good point, well made.Quote:
Originally posted by leftism@13 March 2004 - 23:16
Very interesting.
Should we now expect pregnant mothers who drink, smoke and take drugs to be prosecuted for murder if their babies die?
It's the same thing, they ignore medical advice and their child dies, so why not prosecute them all?
Another good point, well made.Quote:
Originally posted by Biggles@13 March 2004 - 23:35
A C-section is not a like having a tooth out. Mrs Biggles had an emergency C-section with our first and ended up on a drip for 10 days and took nearly a year to fully recover.
It could equally be argued that nature took its course. One cannot hi-jack people off the street and operate on them against their will. Medical advice is just that - advice.
Muchspl - I have no idea who the lady is, but I would like to see you after you have given birth to twins, one of which died, and then be told you are going to be prosceuted for opting for a natural birth. I suspect she did not look like Britney before the episode began, but it seems unreasonable to me to expect her to look so afterwards. :blink:
I know that Mrs JPaul would have had the section and that I would have supported her in it. Given that women can have an elective section for many reasons, it is a risk she would have been prepared to take in order to save our child. It would seem to us to be the moral thing to do.
I await hobbes' explanation on risking one's life in order to save another as being a purely selfish thing.
That however does not mean that I support the rationale that she should be prosecuted for murder for not doing it. I believe that murder would require her to take action, or remain inactive, with a view to causing the death.
I don't think the situations are comparable.Quote:
Originally posted by leftism@13 March 2004 - 23:16
Very interesting.
Should we now expect pregnant mothers who drink, smoke and take drugs to be prosecuted for murder if their babies die?
It's the same thing, they ignore medical advice and their child dies, so why not prosecute them all?
Smoking, drinking, and drugs are associated with an increased risk of poor fetal outcome and death is not one of them. Drugs do not kill babies directly. Most who engage in these activities have perfectly healthy babies (except for the crackheads who have babies who are born in withdrawl).
So we cannot compare a statistical possiblity to an overt act of neglect (see below).
Since her actual medical records are private, I will assume the likely scenario. She probably presented to the doctors with vaginal bleeding or contractions.
They likely examined her with ultrasound and found that the affected fetus was in distress with a depressed heart-rate. As the monitering continued the fetal distress increased to the point that doctors told her C-section or death of the fetus. Whatever the actual scenario, doctors have devised a biophysical profile that, when unequivical, indicates impending death.
She said that she'd really rather not have a scar, and did not voice concern over the surgical risk.
As for the C-section, it is advised to both improve the outcome of the fetus and mother. A dead fetus is a considerable risk for complications that can kill both the mother and other twin.
As I see it, she made a vain and uninformed decision (risking her own life as well).
But, if you look at her picture, you can see that this woman is schizophrenic. They have a pretty typical affect. So I doubt she is mentally competent to make decisions for herself anyway.
As for my opinion, hard to say. But I do agree that we cannot just strap people down for a surgery they do not want. I don't think "murder" is the correct description, but certainly she did something wrong. How she could just sit in the hospital and watch her fetal heart moniter until the baby died, is beyond me. What kind of mother could do that?
Hobbes
It is certainly true that Mrs Biggles' C-section was primarily to save her life, the fact that we also got a healthy son who hopes to study sarcasm at university level was just an added blessing (I think).
Whilst it is easy to condemn the mistakes of others, it is less easy to determine their state of mind and the stress and/or distress they were under when they made them. It is a truism that if we were all of sound and balanced mind then these things would not happen. Alas.....
1. When has Hobbes ever said anything like this?Quote:
Originally posted by J'Pol@13 March 2004 - 23:46
I await hobbes' explanation on risking one's life in order to save another as being a purely selfish thing.
2. Hobbes did comment that he does not need a "God" to tell him "right from wrong", as he understand that "morality" stems from a recognition of selfish behavior.
If the mother were to become the dying fetus, would she still make the same decision. Hell no, she would be dead! So she can obviously realize that ignoring the dying child would be SELFISH behavior on her part ( a desire to avoid a scar) and thus she can appreciate that to ignore this child would be "morally" wrong. It's that whole "do unto others..." thingy.
I think this is pretty cut and dry.
Biggles,Quote:
Originally posted by Biggles@14 March 2004 - 00:23
Hobbes
It is certainly true that Mrs Biggles' C-section was primarily to save her life, the fact that we also got a healthy son who hopes to study sarcasm at university level was just an added blessing (I think).
Whilst it is easy to condemn the mistakes of others, it is less easy to determine their state of mind and the stress and/or distress they were under when they made them. It is a truism that if we were all of sound and balanced mind then these things would not happen. Alas.....
Sarcasm and irony are not college "majors", they are a lifestyle! ;)
As for this lady, I think she is crazier than a shithouse rat from the odd affect she is displaying in her picture. The key is the agape mouth and the unfocused eyes. This expression is not to be confused with exhaustion. I am guessing on this though.
I think this case is so remarkable because most women would immediately opt for the c-section, but this lady is not "most women".
On one level, i think it is similar to abortion in that, a women chooses to terminate her baby because she doesn't think the circumstances are right. However, if her choice was based upon her physical apperance rather than physical trauma then punishment should be to have the scar anyway, not prosecution for murder.
If she is prosecuted for then the judge that sentences her, he should be sued for depriving two children of their mother.
If she is mentally ill she needs treatment and re-education into society not alienation.
This brings up questions of when is it considered killing another human.
Personally, i think that it is still part of the mother until it is born. So really what happens to it is her perogative(sp). If she chooses to let it die because of physical apperance then what caused her to think like that should be investigated and dealt with. If society doesn't reflect on its bad points then it could well happen agin to other mothers who are brought up to value apperance over life.
Hobbes
You may well be right about the mental state of the lady. I have no idea when the picture was taken nor what medication if any she was on at the time. I was merely taken aback by some of the leaps to judgement by some of the earlier 12 good men and true. <_<
Re: sarcasm - he is walking the walk, but feels that the academic stimulus of a likeminded campus would enhance his natural attributes.
15 where we practice our art, but otherwise I can do naught but agree.Quote:
Originally posted by Biggles@14 March 2004 - 00:49
Hobbes
You may well be right about the mental state of the lady. I have no idea when the picture was taken nor what medication if any she was on at the time. I was merely taken aback by some of the leaps to judgement by some of the earlier 12 good men and true. <_<
Re: sarcasm - he is walking the walk, but feels that the academic stimulus of a likeminded campus would enhance his natural attributes.
Let Bigglet watch others. He may have been tutored at the feet of a master, but at the very least he will be able to see worked examples of how not to do it by attending University. Or worst case scenario a poly, Strathclyde springs to mind.
For no reason I suspect St Andrews as being his choice though.