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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everose
I think that has basically already been achieved. Except, of course, for their protection. But then I suppose it isn't that hard for them to get guns, either. ;-)
Just so.
It seems I've started a fire hereabout.
I can never remember to bring the hotdogs... :huh:
No, no fire, J2. :mellow: Too scattered right now to focus much on anything but family and friends in Houston. Just have a lot of questions that it doesn't seem anyone has the answers for regarding our southern border. Frustrated that I can't find the answers myself, if anything.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
ah... missed the small print at the bottom. Sorry.
Please make sure they have money, speak english, are educated and fill in the appropriate forms in triplicate 1st. Being whitish and Christian is an advantage but not necessary as our Utah Branch will be calling soon to discuss the belief issue in the North, and local residents will make sure you conform to local customs in the South. Being allowed to enter does not confire any rights upon attendee's however they can then be entered into the monthly Green Card Lottery. Please be advised that "Free" is used in its fullest sense: Free to Starve or die of easily treatable disease if Health Insurance is not taken out. The Government of the USA cannot be held responsible for anything in any way whatsoever, and neither can their sponsors.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
A "background check"?
That's hilarious.
We can't even begin to manage to naturalize these interlopers, yet we're going to do "background checks"?
By what miracle is this to be accomplished?
I am not talking about naturalizing anyone, I am talking about knowing who is here, for me it is a security issue. If you believe that such security measures don't work as the "bad guys" will step round them please write to the GOP as we are wasting tax dollars on a futile efforts at airports.
My belief is that a Mexican that wants to work here would be likely to sign up as he would be able to work and not worry about deportation. Of course not all would sign up but I believe a significant number would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
We could "eliminate" illegal immigration in a heartbeat by accommodating the laws that have to do with entering the country rather than ignoring them altogether; I would bet we could reduce it to statistically zero merely by cracking down.
Your (and Bush's) entire scenario presupposes a level of cooperation on the part of the transient Mexican (and his/her government) that will never be achieved via any amnesty program, I can assure you.
I said I don't oppose the idea entirely, it is a compromise that will reduce undocumented aliens. I also said I don't believe we can eliminate illegals. We could significantly reduce reduce the number with a crack down, and I agree our borders should be secured, but from a fiscal viewpoint I wonder would the conservative taxpayer stand for it.
Our lawmakers spend our tax politically and not in my view wisely.
It is American commerce that is the problem. The company mantra is to make as much profit while paying as little as possible. So low paid Mexicans get jobs. We as a nation want cheap everything. If you wish to punish companies that employ migrant workers put in the leg work and find produce from other companies....you do believe in market forces ?
Of course with such a "guest worker scheme" in place penalties for a company that still employs illegals should be completely over the top.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
I am not talking about naturalizing anyone, I am talking about
knowing who is here, for me it is a security issue. If you believe that such security measures don't work as the "bad guys" will step round them please write to the GOP as we are wasting tax dollars on a futile efforts at airports.
My belief is that a Mexican that wants to work here would be likely to sign up as he would be able to work and not worry about deportation. Of course not all would sign up but I believe a significant number would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
We could "eliminate" illegal immigration in a heartbeat by accommodating the laws that have to do with entering the country rather than ignoring them altogether; I would bet we could reduce it to statistically zero merely by cracking down.
Your (and Bush's) entire scenario presupposes a level of cooperation on the part of the transient Mexican (and his/her government) that will never be achieved via any amnesty program, I can assure you.
I said I don't oppose the idea entirely, it is a compromise that will reduce undocumented aliens. I also said I don't believe we can eliminate illegals. We could significantly reduce reduce the number with a crack down, and I agree our borders should be secured, but from a fiscal viewpoint I wonder would the conservative taxpayer stand for it.
Our lawmakers spend our tax politically and not in my view wisely.
It is American commerce that is the problem. The company mantra is to make as much profit while paying as little as possible. So low paid Mexicans get jobs. We as a nation want cheap everything. If you wish to punish companies that employ migrant workers put in the leg work and find produce from other companies....you do believe in market forces ?
Of course with such a "guest worker scheme" in place penalties for a company that still employs illegals should be completely over the top.
Who did these jobs before the low-paid Mexicans?
The market forces are inexorable, vid.
In any case, as to the criminal element-why would they accede to an immigration policy which requires them to identify themselves?
The sheer numbers of illegal border-crossers is what makes this easy for them and difficult for us, and this "policy" will not likely change anything; any impetus to collect taxes from these laborers will cause their wages to rise to a level commensurate with what some Democrat will demand on their behalf as "life-sustaining".
There goes the cheap labor...
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Who did these jobs before the low-paid Mexicans?
Low paid Americans...you know, the ones the republicans insist are to blame for their own poverty. Now I think you will point to this as evedence that the minimum wage costs jobs and we should abolish it...but then how would you blame poverty on lazyness?
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The market forces are inexorable, vid.
annoying isn't it
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
In any case, as to the criminal element-why would they accede to an immigration policy which requires them to identify themselves?
show me where I said they would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The sheer numbers of illegal border-crossers is what makes this easy for them and difficult for us, and this "policy" will not likely change anything
Again I stated I am not totally opposed to it. I didn't say I supported it 100%, it is far away from a total solution but it is a compromise to commerce that encourages the cheap Mexican worker and the American consumer that likes to buy things cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
any impetus to collect taxes from these laborers will cause their wages to rise to a level commensurate with what some Democrat will demand on their behalf as "life-sustaining".
There goes the cheap labor...
Problem sloved then, who is going to employ a Mexican if they have to pay the same as they would have to pay an American?...no jobs no migrant workers.
Perhaps you feel that the rise will encourage firms to just employ the undocumented workers again but as i said then the punishment should be totally over the top.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Low paid Americans...you know, the ones the republicans insist are to blame for their own poverty. Now I think you will point to this as evedence that the minimum wage costs jobs and we should abolish it...but then how would you blame poverty on lazyness?
That the "minimum wage costs jobs and we should abolish it" allows us to "blame poverty on laziness"?
I don't follow you on that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The market forces are inexorable, vid.
annoying isn't it
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
In any case, as to the criminal element-why would they accede to an immigration policy which requires them to identify themselves?
show me where I said they would.
How does one acquire "background information" or "documentation" on unidentified individuals, vid? :huh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
The sheer numbers of illegal border-crossers is what makes this easy for them and difficult for us, and this "policy" will not likely change anything
Again I stated I am not
totally opposed to it. I didn't say I supported it 100%, it is far away from a total solution but it is a compromise to commerce that encourages the cheap Mexican worker and the American consumer that likes to buy things cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
any impetus to collect taxes from these laborers will cause their wages to rise to a level commensurate with what some Democrat will demand on their behalf as "life-sustaining".
There goes the cheap labor...
Problem sloved then, who is going to employ a Mexican if they have to pay the same as they would have to pay an American?...no jobs no migrant workers.
Perhaps you feel that the rise will encourage firms to just employ the undocumented workers again but as i said then the punishment should be totally over the top.
I can't go any further with this silliness, vid.
Please post something that makes sense, any sense at all...
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I can't go any further with this silliness, vid.
Please post something that makes sense, any sense at all...
Well if you are going to be pointless yourself then there is no point continuing with you.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I can't go any further with this silliness, vid.
Please post something that makes sense, any sense at all...
Well if you are going to be pointless yourself then there is no point continuing with you.
Correct-there is no point in your continuing with me.
Unless, of course, you begin to make some sort of sense. :)
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Since when has the American minimum wage been "Life Sustaining"? :huh:
There is so much evidence that shows long hours are life threatening that they had to bring in a maximum number of hours you can work in most occupations in Europe, and although this is 48 hours, its recommended at less than 37.
So, 40 * 5 = $200 per week to feed and house a family, plus pay for medical insurance...
Due to your tax system, i think they pay the tax and claim it back? Therefore they have, de facto, a lot LESS than this..
Life sustaining??
No wonder Trailer Parks are so popular over there, and various crime is so popular a pastime.. I'd probably end up selling drugs to feed my family too if paid that :snooty:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Since when has the American minimum wage been "Life Sustaining"? :huh:
There is so much evidence that shows long hours are life threatening that they had to bring in a maximum number of hours you can work in most occupations in Europe, and although this is 48 hours, its recommended at less than 37.
So, 40 * 5 = $200 per week to feed and house a family, plus pay for medical insurance...
Due to your tax system, i think they pay the tax and claim it back? Therefore they have, de facto, a lot LESS than this..
Life sustaining??
No wonder Trailer Parks are so popular over there, and various crime is so popular a pastime.. I'd probably end up selling drugs to feed my family too if paid that :snooty:
Oh, for fuck's sake, Rat-you believe the canard that every minimum-wage employee in the U.S. is supporting a family?
Those who wish it raised are more than happy to entertain such ignorance, as it plays to their strength.
Any "family" living on minimum wage is heavily supplemented by an incredibly comprehensive federal entitlement menu; people who live in such circumstances do not accrue medical bills such as those of mine that I have occasionally referred to.
Much of my tax burden goes to assuring that this remains so.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
I dont claim to know your system..
I do know some people that are single on minimum wage there though..
I also know they are brassic.
I know a couple that do a job and minor crime, to make ends meet.
That suggests they havent enough that its "life Sustaining"
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I dont claim to know your system..
I do know some people that are single on minimum wage there though..
I also know they are brassic.
I know a couple that do a job and minor crime, to make ends meet.
That suggests they havent enough that its "life Sustaining"
Well, I have a couple of friends who work full-time in a factory and live either alone or with a friend.
They are always skint. One of them deals pot now and again for some cash.
The reason they've not much money is because the rent and council tax around here is pretty high and they don't qualify for benefits.
However, this doesn't mean that our minimum wage system sucks. It's just an isolated case, an example of annecdotal evidence.
Just like what you wrote about America.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I dont claim to know your system..
Yet you continue to google it with full faith... :huh:
Manker-
You used the term anecdotal?
Yes, much more often than not.
Those inclined to break the law (to supplement their income) will continue to do so no matter the ostensible reason.
This holds true on both sides of the pond.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Just like what you wrote about America.
I am tempted to ask "how much does Ern earn", in the knowledge that practically no-one will know what I am talking about.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I dont claim to know your system..
Yet you continue to google it with full faith... :huh:
Manker-
You used the term anecdotal?
Yes, much more often than not.
Those inclined to break the law (to supplement their income) will continue to do so no matter the ostensible reason.
This holds true on both sides of the pond.
People are people, wherever they're from.
I think maybe you're guilty of using a couple of unwarranted absolutes in this thread. Sure, lots of people who are inclined to break the law will do so in any circumstance, but some feel they have no choice in the matter and will resort to lawlessness in only the most dire circumstance.
When these circumstances are alleviated, they revert to law abiding type.
Of course, this happens in both the US and UK.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Just like what you wrote about America.
I am tempted to ask "how much does Ern earn", in the knowledge that practically no-one will know what I am talking about.
I have no idea either. Is it an acronym, if so I shall seek council from Busyman (bka Seņor 1337 5p34k).
He is peerless in these matters.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
I dont claim to know your system..
Yet you continue to google it with full faith... :huh:
I didnt Google it...
I asked why they were doing something they didnt want to do even though it was illegal and they had a job.
They told me.
Their income was less than their necessary outgoings...
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Yet you continue to google it with full faith... :huh:
I didnt Google it...
I asked why they were doing something they didnt want to do even though it was illegal and they had a job.
They told me.
Their income was less than their necessary outgoings...
You asked our system why "they" were doing...what?
Methinks there has been a misunderstanding of some sort. :huh:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Yet you continue to google it with full faith... :huh:
Manker-
You used the term anecdotal?
Yes, much more often than not.
Those inclined to break the law (to supplement their income) will continue to do so no matter the ostensible reason.
This holds true on both sides of the pond.
People are people, wherever they're from.
I think maybe you're guilty of using a couple of unwarranted absolutes in this thread. Sure, lots of people who are inclined to break the law will do so in any circumstance, but some feel they have no choice in the matter and will resort to lawlessness in only the most dire circumstance.
When these circumstances are alleviated, they revert to law abiding type.
Of course, this happens in both the US and UK.
Which is my point, and also a well-warranted usage of an absolute...
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
If someone works a minimum wage job to support a family, it is in many cases, the fault of that person.
Many people resort to crime to make ends meet but there are those that commit crime just to keep up their lifestyle.
Cue Weeds example......
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Well, I don't think there was much point in saying that RF believes that every minimum wage earner supports a family nor implying that if a person breaks the law when (s)he is penniless, (s)he is just as likely to continue in the same vein when comfortable.
I wouldn't say that those absolutes are well-warranted. I would go so far as to say that they are quite ridiculous.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
I wouldn't say that those absolutes are well-warranted. I would go so far as to say that they are quite ridiculous.
Alright; just which absolutes are you referring to?
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
I wouldn't say that those absolutes are well-warranted. I would go so far as to say that they are quite ridiculous.
Alright; just which absolutes are you referring to?
The ones in the same post as the one you took that quote from :lookaroun
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Alright; just which absolutes are you referring to?
The ones in the same post as the one you took that quote from :lookaroun
I do hope you will forgive my apparent intransigence, manker; I find it more than a bit difficult to believe you think my construct an absolute but somehow (willfully?) overlooked Rat's in order to attempt to tag me...
Have I reduced you to picking nits?
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
The ones in the same post as the one you took that quote from :lookaroun
I do hope you will forgive my apparent intransigence, manker; I find it more than a bit difficult to believe you think
my construct an absolute but somehow (willfully?) overlooked Rat's in order to attempt to tag me...
Have I reduced you to picking nits?
How did I overlook what RF said. I replied to him too.
I thought you were both talking a load of rubbish.
I only commented on your second sweeping generalisation because you adressed me.
Honestly, sometimes I really do think that you have a persecution complex.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
I do hope you will forgive my apparent intransigence, manker; I find it more than a bit difficult to believe you think my construct an absolute but somehow (willfully?) overlooked Rat's in order to attempt to tag me...
Have I reduced you to picking nits?
How did I overlook what RF said.
I replied to him too.
I thought you were both talking a load of rubbish.
I only commented on your second sweeping generalisation because you adressed
me.
Honestly, sometimes I really do think that you have a persecution complex.
Well, damn, man-of course we were talking rubbish-what did you think we were doing?
Honestly, you are such a manker-come-lately...
And a persecution complex?
Me?
With my history here?
Why would I, of all people, have a persecution complex?
Silly boy.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
How did I overlook what RF said.
I replied to him too.
I thought you were both talking a load of rubbish.
I only commented on your second sweeping generalisation because you adressed
me.
Honestly, sometimes I really do think that you have a persecution complex.
Well, damn, man-of course we were talking rubbish-what did you
think we were doing?
Honestly, you are such a
manker-come-lately...
And a persecution complex?
Me?
With
my history here?
Why would I, of all people, have a persecution complex?
Silly boy.
I thought you were both talking rubbish, which you've just confirmed. I think I said that. I made my point about your pointless absolutes when you adressed me with one of them, you said they were well-warranted so I enlightened you to their folly.
It seems you agree.
Then you said that I picked on you and not RF, like the big meany that I am - so I thought I'd better set you straight there too.
As for the persecution complex ... yeah, I was kidding. Of course you don't think everyone on the board is out to get you :ermm:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by manker
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Well, damn, man-of course we were talking rubbish-what did you think we were doing?
Honestly, you are such a manker-come-lately...
And a persecution complex?
Me?
With my history here?
Why would I, of all people, have a persecution complex?
Silly boy.
I
thought you were both talking rubbish, which you've just confirmed. I think I said that. I made my point about your pointless absolutes when you adressed me with one of them, you said they were well-warranted so I enlightened you to their folly.
It seems you agree.
Then you said that I picked on you and not RF, like the big meany that I am - so I thought I'd better set you straight there too.
As for the persecution complex ... yeah, I was kidding. Of course you don't think everyone on the board is out to get you :ermm:
Just so we're clear, I advised that Rat seemed to buy a common liberal generalization about minimum-wage earners over here.
This nonsense about abuse of absolutes is tish and pish.
I think the Prince Regent said that alot, doesn't he? ;)
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
No such thing as absolutes...
However..
$200 per week wages
$650 per month rent...
Doesnt leave a lot for the unimportant things like food and heating.. :P
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
No such thing as absolutes...
However..
$200 per week wages
$650 per month rent...
Doesnt leave a lot for the unimportant things like food and heating.. :P
And where did those figures come from?
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
As I said..
a friends income on min wage in the USA working 40hrs... the same friends rent for a Studio Appt which, frankly, would fit into my Garage with space left over and appears to have been built by an apprentice with lots to learn :snooty:
I dont blame the person for having to do things they'd much rather not... so that they can eat.
If they wanted to have loads of money, they could easily do the non-legit and make a fortune.. the system however ensures they have to do this a little just to survive.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
As I said..
a friends income on min wage in the USA working 40hrs... the same friends rent for a Studio Appt which, frankly, would fit into my Garage with space left over and appears to have been built by an apprentice with lots to learn :snooty:
I dont blame the person for having to do things they'd much rather not... so that they can eat.
If they wanted to have loads of money, they could easily do the non-legit and make a fortune.. the system however ensures they have to do this a little just to survive.
$650 a month?
In Manhattan?
Must be a real shithole; I think the bums charge more than that to live in the sewers.
Maybe they should move to Queens...
Tell me, Rat-
Do you have enough money to live absolutely anywhere you'd like to?
Perhaps your friends have set their sights a bit too high.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
The person in question isnt even in a major city, never mind Manhatton, i at no time inferred that they were... :snooty:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
The person in question isnt even in a major city, never mind Manhatton, i at no time inferred that they were... :snooty:
Your allusions previously have been of the "When I came to New York..." variety; I remember when you visited, way back when.
What else am I to conclude?
Reminiscent of an incomplete media treatment, that-I apologize.
Maybe I could catch on with Reuters...
Pray tell, what are the relevent particulars, then?
Were you visiting Ruthie in Woodstock?
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Yes, i've been to New York.
I've never been to the city of New York.
I have been to Kingston and Woodstock, both within the State, and visited numerous people there :snooty:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
Yes, i've been to New York.
I've never been to the city of New York.
I have been to Kingston and Woodstock, both within the State, and visited numerous people there :snooty:
Thank you for clearing up that wee, tiny misapprehension, for which you may assume fault and blame, but never mind-I'm not at all vindictive. :)
So-the particulars? :huh:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
If your asking what US citizens i have met, I didnt realise that the country was so small you'd know them all?
The US citizens that frequent this board, or have in the past, and so you may have come across here that i've met are:
Mathea, Scroff, Ruthie, SuperJude (I apologise if i missed anyone)
This is a range of Political and Moral views... but they do not constitute the population of Kingston, Woodstock or Blackwood, New Jersey.... the only other place in the States that i have stayed for more than 3 or 4 days.
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
If your asking what US citizens i have met, I didnt realise that the country was so small you'd know them all?
The US citizens that frequent this board, or have in the past, and so you may have come across here that i've met are:
Mathea, Scroff, Ruthie, SuperJude (I apologise if i missed anyone)
:angry:
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat Faced
If your asking what US citizens i have met, I didnt realise that the country was so small you'd know them all?
The US citizens that frequent this board, or have in the past, and so you may have come across here that i've met are:
Mathea, Scroff, Ruthie, SuperJude (I apologise if i missed anyone)
:angry:
No, B., he's actually met them.
Interesting, though; I had forgotten it myself. ;)
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Re: Bush's immigration policy
Quote:
Originally Posted by j2k4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
:angry:
No, B., he's actually
met them.
Interesting, though; I had forgotten it myself. ;)
Oh he's met me...but doesn't remember. :shifty:
