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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
How did fish get involved?
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
BTW, people have stated that 9/11 was a conspiracy between George W and the Saudi royalty family and they have not been arrested.
People can say what they want, only an encitement to violence breaks the law.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
[QUOTE=hobbes]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
How many people do you think would be deeply hurt by that opinion being expressed.
How many people who survived the .... never mind, I've already posted that. Either you've read it and ignored it, or not read it. I'm cool either way.
Lots of things cause emotional scars but are not jailable offenses.
Do you have anything other than phish to offer.
On one hand the ends never justify the means and on any=other they do.
Quit talking phish.
I refuse to discuss the matter with someone who is that bad at quoting.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
It just seems to me to be silly to specify the event.
Would we need seperate laws for denying Sept. 11th, Hiroshima, Red Square or other sensitive tragedies? Or do a certain number of people have to die before it gets its own law?
A person should be able to say the 9/11 was blessing from God if they wanted to.
Intention to incite violence is where the line gets drawn.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
[QUOTE=JPaul]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I refuse to discuss the matter with someone who is that bad at quoting.
So, you are just soputing shite, thought so.
An unpopular opinion, or an ill informed opinion is not an illegal act.
As BM says, it may hurt blacks emotionally for me to deny slavery, but I have every right to express my idiotic opinion.
If I call out to hurt blacks, that is another matter.
Case closed.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Well, the rule is moronic.
Can there be any disagreemnet to that?
Should I be jailed when I say that the US moon landing was a government hoax.
No, that is just my idiotic opinion.
Everone has the right to be an idioit. Being an idiot should not make one a criminal.
We are discussing the merit of the law. The law is shit if an uniformed opinion is a jailable offense.
The laws has merit if, by his expressed opinion, he is enciting harm to others.
Good post.:01:
I would think that someone saying that America didn't use blacks for slave labor is an idiot but I would think it dumb as hell to jail him/her for it and I'm black. :ermm:
I do like how the forum helps bring out what people think on here and how some people show how moronic they are regardless of their sentence structure.:happy:
Luckily the Austrians are the ones jailing their ill-informed citizens and conspiracy theorists. We have our own shit like the Patriot Act.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Read the story half-wit.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
[QUOTE=JPaul]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I refuse to discuss the matter with someone who is that bad at quoting.
So, you are just spouting shite, thought so.
An unpopular opinion, or an ill informed opinion is not an illegal act.
As BM says, it may hurt blacks emotionally for me to deny slavery, but I have every right to express my idiotic opinion.
If I call out to hurt blacks, that is another matter.
It must be a true delight to use the "ends/means" arguement as unaccaptable or acceptable as you see fit.
Consistency is more my game.
Case closed.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
It just seems to me to be silly to specify the event.
Would we need seperate laws for denying Sept. 11th, Hiroshima, Red Square or other sensitive tragedies? Or do a certain number of people have to die before it gets its own law?
A person should be able to say the 9/11 was blessing from God if they wanted to.
Intention to incite violence is where the line gets drawn.
Agreed.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
[QUOTE=hobbes]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
So, you are just soputing shite, thought so.
An unpopular opinion, or an ill informed opinion is not an illegal act.
As BM says, it may hurt blacks emotionally for me to deny slavery, but I have every right to express my idiotic opinion.
If I call out to hurt blacks, that is another matter.
Case closed.
Indeed, case closed.
Three years, without the option.
Publicly expressing the opinion that the Holocaust was a lie is a criminal offence in Austria. Fact
It really matters not one fuck what you, or busboy, or anyone else thinks.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
A person should be able to say the 9/11 was blessing from God if they wanted to.
Intention to incite violence is where the line gets drawn.
Agreed.
Agree away, the case was heard in a European Court.
He broke Austrian law.
He got the jail.
This pleases me no end, you chaps deal with it however you see fit.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Hey everyone!!!
Austria has a law which many of us think is stupid.
No one should discuss it and subsequently, this thread should not have posted.
3 years jail time for you dissenters. :1eye:
Quote:
I do like how the forum helps bring out what people think on here and how some people show how moronic they are regardless of their sentence structure.:happy:
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
[QUOTE=JPaul]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Indeed, case closed.
Three years, without the option.
Publicly expressing the opinion that the Holocaust was a lie is a criminal offence in Austria. Fact
It really matters not one fuck what you, or busboy, or anyone else thinks.
Austrian law is oppressive shite, fact.
That is all anybody really has cared about.
Vidcc said it first... "which is worse, his denial of the Holocaust or the law that jailed him for it."
Your support for such a law is an atrocity of the freedom of speech.
It is a contradiction of your statement that "ends never justify the means", in regard to the "torture" thread.
If it supports your agenda "ok", if not "bad".
That is just a shite talker.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
Agreed.
Agree away, the case was heard in a European Court.
He broke Austrian law.
He got the jail.
This pleases me no end, you chaps deal with it however you see fit.
Great, perhaps if I state that Jesus is not the son of God, Austrians, and their artibrary laws can jail me for that, too.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Austrian law is oppressive shite, fact.
Again, I had not thought Austrian law to be a specialist area of yours.
You are a chap of myriad talents.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Agree away, the case was heard in a European Court.
He broke Austrian law.
He got the jail.
This pleases me no end, you chaps deal with it however you see fit.
Great, perhaps if I state that Jesus is not the son of God, Austrians, and their artibrary laws can jail me for that, too.
Sorry I can't help you there.
You would really have to ask an Austrian, for preference a lawyer.
PS I really must object to "artibrary", me eyes are bleeding.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Austrian law is oppressive shite, fact.
Again, I had not thought Austrian law to be a specialist area of yours.
You are a chap of myriad talents.
Austrian law being oppressive shite is my opinion and requires no special knowledge on my part.
Nice attempt to distract from the fact that you think the ends justify the means.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Again, I had not thought Austrian law to be a specialist area of yours.
You are a chap of myriad talents.
Austrian law being oppressive shite is my opinion and requires no special knowledge on my part.
Nice attempt to distract from the fact that you think the ends justify the means.
:lol: :lol:
You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.
I think not, baby puppy.
Oh and ending a sentence with "fact" tends to suggest it is more than your opinion. Fact.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Great, perhaps if I state that Jesus is not the son of God, Austrians, and their artibrary laws can jail me for that, too.
Sorry I can't help you there.
You would really have to ask an Austrian, for preference a lawyer.
PS I really must object to "artibrary", me eyes are bleeding.
Again concrete thinking to dismiss the pertinent concepts.
BTW, have you bothered to read your posts.
Spelling errors abound, but since I am not out to distract with such inane commentary, I have not brought them to the fore.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Austrian law being oppressive shite is my opinion and requires no special knowledge on my part.
Nice attempt to distract from the fact that you think the ends justify the means.
:lol: :lol:
You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.
I think not, baby puppy.
The use is very specific, very.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Indeed, case closed.
Three years, without the option.
Publicly expressing the opinion that the Holocaust was a lie is a criminal offence in Austria. Fact
who said it wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
It really matters not one fuck what you, or busboy, or anyone else thinks.
This will come in handy the next time you criticise American laws and punishment like the death penalty.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
who said it wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
It really matters not one fuck what you, or busboy, or anyone else thinks.
This will come in handy the next time you criticise American laws and punishment like the death penalty.
Hello one trick pony, how are you ce soir.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Austrian law being oppressive shite is my opinion and requires no special knowledge on my part.
Nice attempt to distract from the fact that you think the ends justify the means.
:lol: :lol:
You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.
I think not, baby puppy.
Oh and ending a sentence with "fact" tends to suggest it is more than your opinion. Fact.
Using torture under any circumastance is wrong- Jp
Yes, stating something that might be hurtful to another is a jailable offense- Jp
The first illustrates that violating a persons right is always wrong.
The second clearly shows that it is simply a matter of opinion.
Can't have both can we.
Unless we are talking shite.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
:lol: :lol:
You artibrarily used that phrase and feel it has now become the crux of the argument.
I think not, baby puppy.
Oh and ending a sentence with "fact" tends to suggest it is more than your opinion. Fact.
Using torture under any circumastance is wrong- Jp
Yes, stating something that might be hurtful to another is a jailable offense- Jp
The first illustrates that violating a persons right is always wrong.
The second clearly shows that it is simply a matter of opinion.
Can't have both can we.
Unless we are talking shite.
Read ECHR, I keep asking you to do so, but you don't.
I have gone to the bother of getting a basic knowledge of your Constitution. Is it so much to ask that you make a modicum of effort to reciprocate.
Freedom from torture is absolute. Freedom of speech is not.
That's what our "Constitution" says.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
I will not embarrass you further.
If you think that someone should be jailed for an unpopular opinion, you and your 1984 camera and survellience moniters can live happily well away from my counrty.
How is this ANY different than denying slavery?
You are pro-freedom as long as it supports your opinion, good for you.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
I tend to agree with Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.
Personally I think the abject humilation and denouncement he has endured at the hands of people like Lipstadt is a far greater punishment than anything the Austrians could hand out. I'd rather he died a broken man in obscurity than become a martyr for the far-right.
On a side note not related to whether the punishment/law is just: Carrying one of his own flawed books to the trial was bit stupid, as was breaking the law in the first place but why on earth return to a country that has a warrant for your arrest and a mandatory 1-10 year sentence for the crime he knew he had committed and that he intended to commit again? :duh:
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
I tend to agree with [SIZE=2]Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.
How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)
I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.
I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.
Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.
I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.
Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.
This is a discussion.
Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
I tend to agree with [size=2]Deborah Lipstadt's comments on BBC News with regards to this, censorship is not the answer. Countering these absurd claims with history and the truth is the best way to go. On the other hand I can understand the jail sentence to a certain extent because David Irving was inciting racial hatred.
How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)
I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.
I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.
Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.
I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.
Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.
This is a discussion.
Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.
You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?
This is a discussion.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
How was he inciting violence? (I actually don't know the particulars)
I have known folks that questioned the Jewish holocaust and talked about it openly. Many say that it's all they've ever known, as far as history goes, that 6 million Jews were exterminated and they thought the figure exagerrated.
I see Deborah Lipstadt doesn't even advocate the law. She thinks it is totalitarian and gives Irving an ear to those who previously didn't listen.
Hell I even looked up what the hell he was talking about when previously couldn't care less. I honestly accept the holocaust 'cause it's what I was taught and it's what non-racist historians say. Others might think differently.
I do see that when such an effort is made to make folks STFU about something, people tend to look at what they must STFU about and whether there's a conspiracy behind it.
Some may say it's an issue with Austria, France, and the other 5 or so countries (that have similar laws) to deal with. Well that get's a NO SHIT DUH DUMBASS.
This is a discussion.
Comment has been made ad nauseam about American laws to an even greater extent....by folks that don't even live here.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion would be to STFU, fuck-off and troll the Lounge, and grab some common fucking sense to go along with their book knowledge.
You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?
This is a discussion.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.
Could I not stick to the topic? I did. :huh:
Comment was also made about those trying to quell discussion and hijack it to insult others which I'm able to do.
I'm glad you agree since you did the same.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busyman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheese
You seem to have wandered off onto some sort of nonsensical rant there. Could you not stick to the topic itself? Do we really need your "common sense > book knowledge" nonsense yet again?
This is a discussion.
The best thing for those folk that would quell discussion or hijack it to insult others or to further a tired agenda would be to STFU and fuck-off. They can stay out of the Lounge as well.
Could I not stick to the topic? I did. :huh:
Comment was also made about those trying to quell discussion and hijack it to insult others which I'm able to do.
I'm glad you agree since you did the same.
:whoosh:
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I will not embarrass you further.
If you think that someone should be jailed for an unpopular opinion, you and your 1984 camera and survellience moniters can live happily well away from my counrty.
How is this ANY different than denying slavery?
You are pro-freedom as long as it supports your opinion, good for you.
I do not think that someone should be jailed for holding an unpopular opinion, like I said quite clearly, they can hold whatever opinion they want. That's a matter for them
However that does not mean they can choose to express any opinion wherever they want and whenever they want. I do not think the KKK should be allowed to go en mass into a black area and hold a rally proclaiming white supremacy. That does not mean they cannot do it, simply that society can decide it is wrong and take them to task for it.
In Austria they think that holocaust denial is so offensive that it is punishable by imprisonment. Where I am, incitement towards racial hatred is illegal because we as a society think it is morally repugnant. Society has rights, just as much as the individual.
With regard to the various attempted analogies. Certain rights are held to be absolute and others are not. The right to life and the right to freedom from torture are absolute and the State cannot take those away. The right to privacy and the right to freedom of expression are not. The default position is that people have those rights, however given certain circumstances and within a certain legal framework, the State can remove these rights.
That's how things are over here and the Austrians, given the historical significance, have every right to behave in the way they did. If some anti-semitic, racist decided to flaunt their laws good on them for defending themselves from him.
EDIT - The right to freedom from slavery is also an absolute right.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
I will not embarrass you further.
If you think that someone should be jailed for an unpopular opinion, you and your 1984 camera and survellience moniters can live happily well away from my counrty.
How is this ANY different than denying slavery?
You are pro-freedom as long as it supports your opinion, good for you.
I do not think that someone should be jailed for holding an unpopular opinion, like I said quite clearly, they can hold whatever opinion they want. That's a matter for them
However that does not mean they can choose to express any opinion wherever they want and whenever they want. I do not think the KKK should be allowed to go en mass into a black area and hold a rally proclaiming white supremacy. That does not mean they cannot do it, simply that society can decide it is wrong and take them to task for it.
In Austria they think that holocaust denial is so offensive that it is punishable by imprisonment. Where I am, incitement towards racial hatred is illegal because we as a society think it is morally repugnant. Society has rights, just as much as the individual.
With regard to the various attempted analogies. Certain rights are held to be absolute and others are not. The right to life and the right to freedom from torture are absolute and the State cannot take those away. The right to privacy and the right to freedom of expression are not. The default position is that people have those rights, however given certain circumstances and within a certain legal framework, the State can remove these rights.
That's how things are over here and the Austrians, given the historical significance, have every right to behave in the way they did. If some anti-semitic, racist decided to flaunt their laws good on them for defending themselves from him.
EDIT - The right to freedom from slavery is also an absolute right.
If someone comes to my home and asks me if I think the holocuast occurred and I say "No, it was a hoax". That is my opinion, and not jailable.
If I use this opinion to intentionally cause harm or incite hatred, then I am stepping on the rights of others, and this should be jailable.
This is what I have been trying to express since post one.
That is why I said in my first post that we perhaps were not getting the full story, which simply stated that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. It was not just his denial of the holocaust that was the offense, but how he used his opinion to intentionally stir up offense and promote hatred.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
That is why I said in my first post that we perhaps were not getting the full story, which simply stated that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. It was not just his denial of the holocaust that was the offense, but how he used his opinion to intentionally stir up offense and promote hatred.
On what do you base this contention.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
It was not just his denial of the holocaust that was the offense, but how he used his opinion to intentionally stir up offense and promote hatred.
No it's not, public denial is the offence. Your way makes more sense to me and many others, but it's not how the law is.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
I think what really sucks is that the law is about public denial of a historical event or minimalization of it.
I think everyone knows that freedom of speech is not absolute. There are too many examples: shouting "BOMB" at an airport, libel and slander, threatening bodily harm against a person or riding into a neighborhood shouting racial hatred. Those are direct contradictions to (absolute) freedom of speech.
What this case sounds like is dissenting opinion and the government stifling dissenting opinion.
Imagine folks NOT being able spout conspiracy theories about 9/11, calling the President an idiot on TV or questioning evolution.
The law, in principle, stifles a person in public from being an idiot OR correct.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillian
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
It was not just his denial of the holocaust that was the offense, but how he used his opinion to intentionally stir up offense and promote hatred.
No it's not, public denial is the offence. Your way makes more sense to me and many others, but it's not how the law is.
Then it's just a stupid law which censors its citizens. Being jailed for expressing an opinion, in a context which is not aimed at hurting or provoking others, is wrong.
It is not illegal to yell "fire", but one will be held accountable for yelling fire(when there is none) in a crowded theather, provoking a stampede and causing injuries.
It would be like jailing someone for denying slavery in the US. Wrong.
It would be like jailing someone for denying Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Wrong.
The historical record is there and stands well enough on its own.
They can pass any laws they want, and I can judge them as I see fit.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbes
The historical record is there and stands well enough on its own.
They can pass any laws they want, and I can judge them as I see fit.
Eggggzacklee.;)
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Again as a user at TB.net said, I agree with this response,
Quote:
3 words, freedom of speech. Although I personally think that denying holocaust shows that the person is either dumb or he lacks education, having second opinion on a matter is hardly worth of prison time. I saw people fighting for freedom of speech in the danes vs. mohammed cartoon threads, I see this situation very similar.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPaul
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidcc
You think people should be jailed for free speech, really
Yes, obviously.
I support Abu Hamza being jailed and I think Nick Fuckwit the head of the BNP should also be jailed for what he said (he's being re-tried apparently).
Free speech yes, consequences also yes. Society has a right to protect itself from hatemongers and those who would cause the suffering of others by their words and what their words lead to.
thats what am been saying for so long, what u say now?
why not jail that man who made cartoons?
they can jail someone for just speaking but they cant jail a guy who acctually made something that spreaded world wide.
Quote:
If someone comes to my home and asks me if I think the holocuast occurred and I say "No, it was a hoax". That is my opinion, and not jailable.
If I use this opinion to intentionally cause harm or incite hatred, then I am stepping on the rights of others, and this should be jailable.
again something that i was pointing.
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Re: jailed for denying the holocaust
Quote:
Originally Posted by BawA
why not jail that man who made cartoons?
For the simple reason that he did not commit an offence. If he had then the Danish authorities may well have prosecuted him.
