Scientology - harmless fun or dangerous cult

Thanks for clearing that up. I really do appreciate it.

It's just that your story and "best avoided" came across as being jocular. It portrayed them as figures of scorn (which they no doubt are) however it also seemed to portray them as something which could be toyed with. Which I very much do not think is the case.

I agree that there are much more dangerous cults, however that does not mean that they cannot ruin their victim's life's. It's just better for them to keep most of them active and earning, to keep the cash flowing in.

Cheers, mate.

i'd like to do the test and shit. but i'd be scared of getting hypnotised :ermm:

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Originally Posted by Biggles

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

You, a respected person (and I mean by me and others whose opinions matter, not someone who has been here for a certain time) have effecively trivialised something I see as dangerous and insidious.

I have had some personal experience with cultism (close family member) and we managed to nip same in proverbial bud. However that highlighted even more to me just how easy it would be for someone to become part of that type of thing. I have taken to researching things I previously laughed at, or mocked in an off-hand manner.

Scientology is a dangerous cult, it is not harmless fun.

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Fair point - although in my defence I did say "best avoided" - something I actually meant. I voted dangerous cult although I felt that perhaps over-stated things. There are more dangerous. I never liked the Moonies or the Children of God who I would definitely class as more dangerous. They want you body and soul - the Scientologists are more interested in your wallet (and continued donations). I also find the Gouranga mob a tad scary although I don't know much about them. I think it is the anoraks and clip board that worries me.

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As you say, Les.

Fromagepas-

Absent solid knowledge to the contrary I would hesitate to catagorize all...fringe religious movements so narrowly, but your caution is obviously well-founded (and well-taken), given your experience.

Jim Jones, David Koresh...we've seen it happen, and it is not a great stretch to imagine L. Ron Hubbard devoted a good amount of time to grooming his spiel to seem innocuous as strawberry jam.

At the same time, the very name, "Scientology" seems calculated to appeal to those with an otherwise sectarian inclination.

Judging by those we see advocating Scientology specifically (Cruise, et.al.), I find it telling that we continually see the moneyed types pushing for legitimacy-I remember hearing Cruise once compare the gradual (and "inevitable") acceptance of Scientology to that of chiropractic medicine over the past 30-35 years.

I remember thinking he was off his nut when he said it, and I haven't changed my mind in the interim.

In any case, the only difference between you and I (and I'm guessing Biggles, as well) is first-hand experience.

My opinion.

http://www.xenu.net/

At first I thought Scientology was a "religion" grounded in proven scientific fact. But now that I've read more, I'm astounded at the gullibility of people who truly believe in it.

Because so many rich people have joined, it has the funds to sue the crap out of any one or anything that tries to criticise it (even in a civilised, debating-like manner)

Has anyone read their "doctrines"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

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In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu) is an alien ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to cause problems today.

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The kidnapped populace was loaded into space planes for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth). The space planes were exact copies of Douglas DC-8s, "except the DC-8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn't."

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{On the "Marcab Confederacy"} They had turbine-generated cars that went about 275 miles an hour (443 km/h). They ran with a high whine. I notice they've just now invented the motor again. And they had tracks that were booby-trapped with atom bombs, and they had side bypasses. The tracks were mined, and the grandstands were leaded-paned.

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I've got just three more letters to add:

W.T.F.

anything you can Imagine is possible and regarding W.T.F

WTF

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Originally Posted by Spiteful

At first I thought Scientology was a "religion" grounded in proven scientific fact. But now that I've read more, I'm astounded at the gullibility of people who truly believe in it.

Because so many rich people have joined, it has the funds to sue the crap out of any one or anything that tries to criticise it (even in a civilised, debating-like manner)

Has anyone read their "doctrines"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu

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The kidnapped populace was loaded into space planes for transport to the site of extermination, the planet of Teegeeack (Earth). The space planes were exact copies of Douglas DC-8s, "except the DC-8 had fans, propellers on it and the space plane didn't."

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{On the "Marcab Confederacy"} They had turbine-generated cars that went about 275 miles an hour (443 km/h). They ran with a high whine. I notice they've just now invented the motor again. And they had tracks that were booby-trapped with atom bombs, and they had side bypasses. The tracks were mined, and the grandstands were leaded-paned.

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I've got just three more letters to add:

W.T.F.

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These "doctrines" are just as likely to be true as those of other "mainstream" religions.

As I said, Hocus pocus is Hocus pocus.

The teachings of the mainstream religions, as you call them, are mostly based on historical fact. Jesus did exist, he did travel, he did have followers, he did teach certain things. He basically taught that it would be a good thing for everyone to be nice to each other and to be charitable. To do other people a favour rather than a bad turn. To turn the other cheek if you yourself were attacked. Whether you believe He was anything other than a man, surely these are good lessons. Surely everyone can try to aspire to that, whatever you think of Him.

I agree that the interpretation people place upon things may be different and that it cannot be scientifically proven the He was the Son of God. That's a matter of faith. I have no problem with anyone taking that position, good on them if that's what they feel and believe. May the blessings of the Prophet be upon you.

However to equate that to Scientology is not really tenable. Scientology is based on the writings of a hack science fiction author. Just look at the "teachings" the bloke earlier highlighted. Look at how the organisation works, look at how it treats it's members and those who would oppose it. look at the techniques it employs to enslave it's members. For fucks sake, just look at the name, even that was specifically chosen to appeal to a certain type of person.

Scientology is a dangerous cult. Of that there is no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Chip Monk

The teachings of the mainstream religions, as you call them, are mostly based on historical fact. Jesus did exist, he did travel, he did have followers, he did teach certain things. He basically taught that it would be a good thing for everyone to be nice to each other and to be charitable. To do other people a favour rather than a bad turn. To turn the other cheek if you yourself were attacked. Whether you believe He was anything other than a man, surely these are good lessons. Surely everyone can try to aspire to that, whatever you think of Him.

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I think it entirely possible that "jesus" may have existed or at he is a character based on someone that may have existed, I also think it entirely possible that he was a made up personthat happened to be a "nice concerned man" in a book.the idea that he was the "son of god" and the "miracles" is hocus pocus fiction.
The bible cannot be called fact because certain events depicted actually happened.
For example the great flood. Let's say that the world did flood, this is entirely possible. This is not proof that "god" flooded the earth.
Accepted history is full "truthiness".

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Originally Posted by Chip Monk

I agree that the interpretation people place upon things may be different and that it cannot be scientifically proven the He was the Son of God. That's a matter of faith. I have no problem with anyone taking that position, good on them if that's what they feel and believe. May the blessings of the Prophet be upon you.

However to equate that to Scientology is not really tenable. Scientology is based on the writings of a hack science fiction author. Just look at the "teachings" the bloke earlier highlighted. Look at how the organisation works, look at how it treats it's members and those who would oppose it. look at the techniques it employs to enslave it's members. For fucks sake, just look at the name, even that was specifically chosen to appeal to a certain type of person.

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And how do you know that the authors of the bible etc. where not just the "hacks" of their day?

Christianity for example isn't just based on the teachings of jesus (in fact it seems his teaching are more often than not ignored) religious doctrine tends to be the creation of the followers more than the prophet. Christianity follows "gods words" as well. God is hocus pocus and the scientology theory, even based on a science fiction story is as likely to be true as the god creation theory.

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Originally Posted by Chip Monk

Scientology is a dangerous cult. Of that there is no doubt.

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I disagree, there is doubt.

Adressing the point someone made about "being after money"....Tithing isn't exactly unique to scientology. One may make a differential case about what the money is used for but it comes down to this.... If the people that choose scientology as their belief system want to give money then that is up to them.

You've already said that you think it's harmless fun. However your argument for that seems to rest on your opinion that other things are hocus pocus, or are as bad. That may or may not be true. However it really is irrelevant, the poll is not a comparative study. It relates to Scientology, which is a dangerous cult. Whether other things are hocus pocus, superstition or just plain nonsense is irrelevant.

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If the people that choose scientology as their belief system want to give money then that is up to them.

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Maybe at the very start, but not for long. that's how it works.

Have you carried out much research into Scientology? Or indeed into any other cult? it may be worth your while doing so, just in case someone you know, or heaven forbid are related to, announces that they are joining it. I seriously would not want your reaction to be "Oh, well, it's just a bit of harmless fun".

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

You've already said that you think it's harmless fun. However your argument for that seems to rest on your opinion that other things are hocus pocus, or are as bad. That may or may not be true. However it really is irrelevant, the poll is not a comparative study. It relates to Scientology, which is a dangerous cult. Whether other things are hocus pocus, superstition or just plain nonsense is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

My stance is clear, Scientology is no more dangerous or safe than any other religion, the danger is in the individual.

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You do not decide what is relevant to anyones point or what can be discussed. It would be a pretty unfair and unbalanced debate if scientology were singled out without being able to show comparisons upon which ones reasoning is based.
without balance or comparison it's nothing more than a schoolyard flaming statement.

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

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If the people that choose scientology as their belief system want to give money then that is up to them.

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Maybe at the very start, but not for long. that's how it works.

Have you carried out much research into Scientology? Or indeed into any other cult? it may be worth your while doing so, just in case someone you know, or heaven forbid are related to, announces that they are joining it. I seriously would not want your reaction to be "Oh, well, it's just a bit of harmless fun".

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It's called a cult by those that believe in other religions.....to me all religions are cults and we take responsibility for our own actions.

The followers don't seem to be killing themselves or anyone else afaik, so why is it dangerous?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

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Originally Posted by vidcc

My stance is clear, Scientology is no more dangerous or safe than any other religion, the danger is in the individual.

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You do not decide what is relevant to anyones point or what can be discussed. It would be a pretty unfair and unbalanced debate if scientology were singled out without being able to show comparisons upon which ones reasoning is based.
without balance or comparison it's nothing more than a schoolyard flaming statement.

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

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If the people that choose scientology as their belief system want to give money then that is up to them.

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Maybe at the very start, but not for long. that's how it works.

Have you carried out much research into Scientology? Or indeed into any other cult? it may be worth your while doing so, just in case someone you know, or heaven forbid are related to, announces that they are joining it. I seriously would not want your reaction to be "Oh, well, it's just a bit of harmless fun".

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It's called a cult by those that believe in other religions.....to me all religions are cults and we take responsibility for our own actions.

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It is not just called a cult by people who believe in other religions. It's called a cult by many people, religious or not.

My point is, your defence of Scientology as harmless fun is based on comparing it to other religions, rather than on analyzing what Scientology teaches and how it treats it's members.

Let us assume, for the purposes of your argument that every other religion is a dangerous cult. It's all nonsense and hocus pocus, it's all just rubbish.

How does that effect whether Scientology is a dangerous cult, or harmless fun? It doesn't, it's a non-argument.

I can see how you would use that type of argument to debate that it was no worse than say, Christianity, but that's an entirely different issue.

:dabs:

i watched the south park on mormons today. mormonology is a respected religion right? it's just as suck as scientology or believing the world is 6000-7000 years old :dabs:

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Originally Posted by TheDave

:dabs:

i watched the south park on mormons today. mormonology is a respected religion right? it's just as suck as scientology or believing the world is 6000-7000 years old :dabs:

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How much research have you done into the beliefs of the Mormons and where they came from?

Is it just the one episode of soth Park, or have you spread your net a bit wider?

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

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Originally Posted by TheDave

:dabs:

i watched the south park on mormons today. mormonology is a respected religion right? it's just as suck as scientology or believing the world is 6000-7000 years old :dabs:

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How much research have you done into the beliefs of the Mormons and where they came from?

Is it just the one episode of soth Park, or have you spread your net a bit wider?

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just one episode of south park :smilie4:


is it not true that it was started by one guy said he found 4 gold tablets with scripture in a foriegn language on, and that he translated them using two magic stones. then when asked to replicate the first translations, he couldn't, because he pissed god off :dabs:

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

It is not just called a cult by people who believe in other religions. It's called a cult by many people, religious or not.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

to me all religions are cults

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

My point is, your defence of Scientology as harmless fun is based on comparing it to other religions, rather than on analyzing what Scientology teaches and how it treats it's members.

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that is your creation, not my arguement.

my argument is -

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Originally Posted by vidcc

the danger is in the individual.

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I think scientology is complete bunkum, but as I said before I am not going to single it out as being different from any other religion. If you wish to tunnel the subject feel free to do so, I will not.

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

I can see how you would use that type of argument to debate that it was no worse than say, Christianity, but that's an entirely different issue.

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Originally Posted by vidcc
My stance is clear, Scientology is no more dangerous or safe than any other religion, the danger is in the individual.

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:rolleyes:

I shall re-quote this

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the danger is in the individual.

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edit: Quotes fixed

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Originally Posted by TheDave

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Originally Posted by Fromagepas

How much research have you done into the beliefs of the Mormons and where they came from?

Is it just the one episode of soth Park, or have you spread your net a bit wider?

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just one episode of south park :smilie4:


is it not true that it was started by one guy said he found 4 gold tablets with scripture in a foriegn language on, and that he translated them using two magic stones. then when asked to replicate the first translations, he couldn't, because he pissed god off :dabs:

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I think that's pretty much it. Other than it was a bloke called Joe Smith.

http://www.exmormon.org/fourteen.htm

We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.


yeah, so, that's pretty fucked up right there :dabs:


as zany as that what the bleep do we know video :dabs:

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Judging by those we see advocating Scientology specifically (Cruise, et.al.), I find it telling that we continually see the moneyed types pushing for legitimacy-I remember hearing Cruise once compare the gradual (and "inevitable") acceptance of Scientology to that of chiropractic medicine over the past 30-35 years.

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well, i reckon it's the mandate of every scientologist, whether moneyed or not, to win mainstream legitimacy for the church.

one might be tempted to say that tom cruise's behavior in tv interviews & such over the past year seem to be merely a result of him being one individual nut. or it's an unique result of his brain being scrambled by a cult. except his attitude toward simple conversation is not really unique among representatives of scientology. for all the seeming attempt at making the church seem innocuous, they place a heavy emphasis on winning the battle which the rest of us call conversation. whether by lying, by verbal sparring & intimidation, or by lawsuits. i'm fairly certain i've seen tom cruise attempt to use a couple of those techniques while he was being interviewed about scientology. if you can look up some quotations from scientology's public relations instruction manuals, cruise's behavior might not seem any more crazy/hostile than the church's own prescribed P.R. methods (in fact they might appear to be exactly the same).

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Originally Posted by 3RA1N1AC

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Judging by those we see advocating Scientology specifically (Cruise, et.al.), I find it telling that we continually see the moneyed types pushing for legitimacy-I remember hearing Cruise once compare the gradual (and "inevitable") acceptance of Scientology to that of chiropractic medicine over the past 30-35 years.

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well, i reckon it's the mandate of every scientologist, whether moneyed or not, to win mainstream legitimacy for the church.

one might be tempted to say that tom cruise's behavior in tv interviews & such over the past year seem to be merely a result of him being one individual nut. or it's an unique result of his brain being scrambled by a cult. except his attitude toward simple conversation is not really unique among representatives of scientology. for all the seeming attempt at making the church seem innocuous, they place a heavy emphasis on winning the battle which the rest of us call conversation. whether by lying, by verbal sparring & intimidation, or by lawsuits. i'm fairly certain i've seen tom cruise attempt to use a couple of those techniques while he was being interviewed about scientology. if you can look up some quotations from scientology's public relations instruction manuals, cruise's behavior might not seem any more crazy/hostile than the church's own prescribed P.R. methods (in fact they might appear to be exactly the same).

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Some might find me handicapped by the fact of my sincere non-fascination with young Tom; I find the sum total of his worth to be the work-product of an excellent dentist, and his acting ability next-to-nil.

That he favors Scientology is fitting, I suppose, and his naturally smug demeanor would seem to make him predisposed to the role of "spokesman", but while he conveys 'smug' with his bearing, he cannot manage 'convincing', being equipped only with his mouthful of pretty teeth and his wee tiny brain.

To attribute to him the gravity of a "mandate" is going a bit far, unless you were merely being sarcastic, which is proper and acceptable. ;)

Is cruise a "spokesman" or is he just someone famous that speaks out?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

Is cruise a "spokesman" or is he just someone famous that speaks out?

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If he has a mandate, as you say, it goes beyond garden-variety proselytizing, I think, and if you're Tom Cruise, it would be easy:

'Hi, I'm Tom Cruise, and if Scientology is my choice, you know it's good enough for you...'

As they say, "Image is everything"

I'm quite sure his Church overlooks his clumsiness as a mouthpiece in lieu of his financial largesse.

I didnt vote either because "pack of loony nut-jobs" wasnt a option. I only know what I see on TV and hear on the radio about this scientology crap, and if they are anything like what tom cruise is displaying, then they are the most retarded bunch of idiots to hit the scene since the "heavens gate" retards a few years ago. Seems funny they all think spaceships are comming.........maybe they are :lol: But in all fairness, I dont really know what they stand for.........But I do like scifi stuff :P

@ j2

I didn't say he has a mandate, I asked if he did.

My question was if Cruise is officially a spokesman or just someone open or vocal about his religion....hardly unusual....... that happens to be famous.

would his position as a celebrity be an issue if he was openly christian ?

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Originally Posted by vidcc

@ j2

I didn't say he has a mandate, I asked if he did.

My question was if Cruise is officially a spokesman or just someone open or vocal about his religion....hardly unusual....... that happens to be famous.

would his position as a celebrity be an issue if he was openly christian ?

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Mel Gibson, enough said.

I think if you have a lunatic down the street that says "the end is near", then you have, say, tom cruise saying "the end is near", more people will hear tom cruise cuz he is famous. SO, with him doing all this weird shit in the name of scientology, he gets tagged with being the "unofficial" spokesman. So in that respect, all of scientology would get picked on because he sounds like a total wack job.

So david ike was the spokesman for uk christians?

I think one of the articles linked to earlier said that every time Top Gun opens his mouth the Scientology central office has to release a bunch of press releases 'clearing things up', so I think he's a useful PITA rather than any sort of official spokesperson.

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Originally Posted by vidcc

@ j2

I didn't say he has a mandate, I asked if he did.

Sorry-I assumed we were bound by our normal contrarian contract. :)

My question was if Cruise is officially a spokesman or just someone open or vocal about his religion....hardly unusual....... that happens to be famous.

As posted above, yes-Mel Gibson as a Christian (bad, of course, for his career; good thing he's already fuck-off successful), and, of course, John Travolta, whose unfortunate effort (can't remember it's name) was a pet project-at least he's more forthright and sincere with his cash than Cruise.


would his position as a celebrity be an issue if he was openly christian ?

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Yes; Mel Gibson suffered some slings and arrows, as I recall...had you forgotten?

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Originally Posted by j2k4

Yes; Mel Gibson suffered some slings and arrows, as I recall...had you forgotten?

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the question was to you. your opinion, if cruise was "praising jesus" would his celebrity be an issue.
I have no problem with any celeb. stating their opinions, political or religious. I only have a problem with people who try to force others to live by their "values".

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Originally Posted by vidcc

My question was if Cruise is officially a spokesman or just someone open or vocal about his religion....hardly unusual....... that happens to be famous.

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well, no, if the question be "is tom cruise (or any other celebrity) an official spokesperson for the Church Of Scientology proper?"

but many (most?) celebrity scientologists do have "official spokesperson" status within scientology organizations that are clearly separate in name only. tom's unwieldy job-title is International Ambassador for Applied Scholastics International.