I think the conditions in the world right now are favourable to a major war...

Wow, RF avoiding simple questions.

Whoda thunk it? :dabs:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Where did the Jets that killed the Canadians come from?


ALTERNATIVE ANSWER:

Syria.. where did the missiles that killed the Canadians come from?

Maybe thats the answer.. Israel attack Syria and Canada attack the USA.. :rolleyes:

---

So where did the rockets come from again?

"Answer the question, Clarice."

---

They came from Lebanon Territory.

The Jets came from Israeli Territory.

Apples for Apples you said... Canada has as much right to attack Israel.

The Lebanon Government did not say "Go kill Israeli's" to Hez'bollah.

The Israeli Government did not say "Go kill Canadians" to its Pilots.


Either both countries should be bombed to fuck, or neither... your call.

Personally, I dont think either should be as neither country is responsible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman

So where did the rockets come from again?

"Answer the question, Clarice."

---

They came from Lebanon Territory.

The Jets came from Israeli Territory.

Apples for Apples you said... Canada has as much right to attack Israel.

The Lebanon Government did not say "Go kill Israeli's" to Hez'bollah.

The Israeli Government did not say "Go kill Canadians" to its Pilots.


Either both countries should be bombed to fuck, or neither... your call.

Personally, I dont think either should be as neither country is responsible.

---

That's not apples to apples.

One is who the other is where. :crazy:

Oh and to go along with your apples to apples comparison.....

Unless Israel can manage to hit only the rocket positions regardless if they've moved or not, they should do fuck all and take rockets up the ass.

There, it's all sorted.

Again if the Lebs can't sort folks using their backyard to toss bombs then Israel will.

Also you do not know if folks in the Leb gubment are saying go kill Israeli or not. You make assumptions based on a press release and decree.

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

---

Like French Farmers for example :whistling




But that's another story... :shutup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

I guarantee that if "some group" in France started fucking up bratland and it continued....and continued....and continued.....and France did fuck all, bratland would be knocking on France's door.

---

You forget certain groups in Ireland and USA did start fucking "Bratland" again and again and again.. and we didnt go bombing the fuck out of either country.

Because it was "some Groups".. not the Governments or populations at large.

You also forget that Hezbollah didnt start the throwing of rockets, it was reciprocal... they kidnapped 2 soldiers, and killed a few more in the firefight.

As far as the Bombs and Rockets are concerned, Israel started that shit.

Quote:

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July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants

---

So, kidnapping..

Didn't the Italian courts issue arrest warrents for some CIA operatives that kidnapped someone from Italy recently? Happening a lot at the moment is rendition...

You're basically saying the correct response for the Italians to that would been to Blockade New York, Bomb JFK and a couple of hundred other US targets.... at least the CIA is responsible to the US Government afterall, unlike Hezbollah to the Lebonese Government.

This "Middle East war" will end when Hezbollah frees the soldiers, Israel stays out of Lebanon and Palestine becomes a soberan country recognized by all.
Also the terrorist groups must end.

I think all these conditions are very difficult to accomplish so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

You forget certain groups in Ireland and USA did start fucking "Bratland" again and again and again.. and we didnt go bombing the fuck out of either country.

Because it was "some Groups".. not the Governments or populations at large.

You also forget that Hezbollah didnt start the throwing of rockets, it was reciprocal... they kidnapped 2 soldiers, and killed a few more in the firefight.

As far as the Bombs and Rockets are concerned, Israel started that shit.

Quote:

---

July 2006: Hezbollah militants cross into Israel, kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two others in a bid to negotiate a prisoner exchange, a demand rebuffed by Israel. Another five Israeli soldiers are killed after the ambush. Israel responds with a naval blockade and by bombing hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including Beirut's airport and Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. Hezbollah responds with rocket attacks targeting northern Israeli cities. Fighting leaves dozens of Lebanese civilians dead and coincides with a two-week-old Israeli military campaign in Gaza in response to the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants

---

So, kidnapping..

Didn't the Italian courts issue arrest warrents for some CIA operatives that kidnapped someone from Italy recently? Happening a lot at the moment is rendition...

You're basically saying the correct response for the Italians to that would been to Blockade New York, Bomb JFK and a couple of hundred other US targets.... at least the CIA is responsible to the US Government afterall, unlike Hezbollah to the Lebonese Government.

---

The Hezbollah attack came from the territory of a sovereign country which Lebanon is responsible for. Hezbollah has strongholds there ffs.:ermm:

A Lebanese group initiated the attacks. Period. They kidnapped and killed soldiers and I gather they retreated back to Lebanon.

You'll hear no argument regarding the arrest warrants. However, who was abducted? I'm ignorant on that issue. I mean will Italy go to war over a kidnapped Egyptian bank clerk. Probably not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Busyman

I mean will Italy go to war over a kidnapped Egyptian bank clerk. Probably not.

---

Of course not, and neither should Israel go to war over the kidnapping of a couple of it's soldiers.

Nor would they have done, if it wasn't for one thing - the agreement keeping the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon runs out next Monday, and the Israeli's are desparate that someone else should pay for patrolling its northern border.

BTW, while you are so keen on spreading the blame for Israel's appalling conduct, why not cast it on the UN for not controlling Hezzbollah. Not that you need bother, I think we know who will do that.

Israel doesnt help itself, and frankly i dont think it wants to.

As long as they are getting "threatened" their whole economy is paid for by the USA... it pays them to keep the neighbours unhappy.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

The U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

How come its OK for them to do anything, including flying their military aircraft over sovereign nations with impunity and treating the Palestinians as sub human?

I could understand it if they were even a good ally of the US... but ffs, they bomb your ships (USS Liberty), sell your secrets and ignore the Non proliferation treaty etc and nothing is said.. Any other country so much as looks at you the wrong way (or Israel) and they are in the Axis of Evil.

Is it really any wonder that the Islamic countries hate the US, Israel and UK at the moment?

Personally, so would I if i was in their position...

Yet the fact remains... individuals not under the control of the Lebanese Government hit a military target, and kidnapped Military Personell to exchange with them, and Israel responded by attacking an International Airport and Major City plus hundreds of other civilian targets.

Frankly, if they dont stop.. they will deserve everything that will be heading their way... and in the process garanteeing the US will keep giving them Billions of Dollars annually..

Can't help but agree with you there Rat....very poor state of affairs....I expect Blair will be licking Georgie's arse all the way down the line too. :dry:

Amazing what the Colgate 360 can do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Israel doesnt help itself, and frankly i dont think it wants to.

As long as they are getting "threatened" their whole economy is paid for by the USA... it pays them to keep the neighbours unhappy.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

The U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

How come its OK for them to do anything, including flying their military aircraft over sovereign nations with impunity and treating the Palestinians as sub human?

I could understand it if they were even a good ally of the US... but ffs, they bomb your ships (USS Liberty), sell your secrets and ignore the Non proliferation treaty etc and nothing is said.. Any other country so much as looks at you the wrong way (or Israel) and they are in the Axis of Evil.

Is it really any wonder that the Islamic countries hate the US, Israel and UK at the moment?

Personally, so would I if i was in their position...

Yet the fact remains... individuals not under the control of the Lebanese Government hit a military target, and kidnapped Military Personell to exchange with them, and Israel responded by attacking an International Airport and Major City plus hundreds of other civilian targets.

Frankly, if they dont stop.. they will deserve everything that will be heading their way... and in the process garanteeing the US will keep giving them Billions of Dollars annually..

---

We are in agreement, somewhat. I'd like for the US to be "that country across the water" and let the world go on about it's business.

However, to part of your post....what is Israel supposed to do? I don't why they bombed the Beirut airport unless it was being used a by Hezbollah (I doubt it). As I said before, I disagree with overkill.

Israel should not have sat on their ass either....like maybe the Lebanese government. Either the Lebs sort it or Israel will sort it.

I will say this....if Iran gets nuke capability, Israel will be "wiped off the map".

Hmmm C&P

Quote:

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.

Mahmoud Komati, deputy chief of the Hezbollah's political arm, also told The Associated Press in an interview that the Shiite militant group will not lay down arms.

"The truth is - let me say this clearly - we didn't even expect (this) response ... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us," said Komati.

He said Hezbollah had expected "the usual, limited response" from Israel after the two soldiers were seized by guerrillas on Israel's side of the border on July 12.

In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon, seizing Hezbollah officials and briefly targeting specific strongholds in southern Lebanon.

Komati said his group had anticipated negotiations to swap the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese held in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it has in past prisoner exchanges.

He said Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers from a military area, but charged that Israelis had taken Hezbollah leaders from their homes at night.

"The response is unjustified," Komati said. He claimed the Israeli offensive was planned in advance, and Israel was only "waiting for the right time" to carry it out.

Asked about reports that Hezbollah has been firing Iranian-made missiles on Israel, Komati said: "We don't deny nor confirm. We believe where the weapons come from is irrelevant."

Hezbollah leaders previously have denied that Iran was supplying them with weapons.

Komati said Hezbollah has weapons made in various countries, including the United States, France, China and Russia.

"Some of our fighters carry M16s. So you think we buy them from America?" he asked.

Komati said Hezbollah demanded an immediate end to Israeli attacks before agreeing to negotiate and rejected a plan proposed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during her visit to Beirut.

The plan calls for the deployment of international and Lebanese troops in southern Lebanon to prevent Hezbollah attacks on Israel before a cease-fire.

"No one can talk about politics while the fire rages, and killings occur," Komati said.

He was adamant about Hezbollah's refusal to disarm because of what he said was Israeli occupation of Lebanese land, the "threat of Israeli aggression" and the Lebanese held in Israeli jails.

---

No one has said Israel shouldnt be allowed to defend themselves, they have been doing so for years.

You dont hear about the Commando attacks into Lebanon that successfully neutralised Hezbollah targets for years...

Why? Because it was proportionate and they were militia targets. Israel has had the upper hand for years on the matter, so much so that Hezbollah have been quiet for years...

The things you hear about, and cause condemnation are the disproportionate attacks and actions... such as those against the Palestinians and what is happening now in Lebanon.



There is no justification for bombing hundreds of Civilian Targets in Lebanon because of the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers.

There is no justification for throwing Tanks against kids throwing rocks.

There is every justification for them to seize members of Hezbollah and Hamas or to take out their weapon supplies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

No one has said Israel shouldnt be allowed to defend themselves, they have been doing so for years.

You dont hear about the Commando attacks into Lebanon that successfully neutralised Hezbollah targets for years...

Why? Because it was proportionate and they were militia targets. Israel has had the upper hand for years on the matter, so much so that Hezbollah have been quiet for years...

The things you hear about, and cause condemnation are the disproportionate attacks and actions... such as those against the Palestinians and what is happening now in Lebanon.

Quote:

---

In the past, he said, Israeli responses to Hezbollah actions included sending commandos into Lebanon, seizing Hezbollah officials and briefly targeting specific strongholds in southern Lebanon.

Komati said his group had anticipated negotiations to swap the Israeli soldiers for three Lebanese held in Israeli jails, with Germany acting as a mediator as it has in past prisoner exchanges.

---

Why should this be allowed to go on....forever...?

There is no justification for bombing hundreds of Civilian Targets in Lebanon because of the kidnapping of a couple of soldiers.

There is no justification for throwing Tanks against kids throwing rocks.

There is every justification for them to seize members of Hezbollah and Hamas or to take out their weapon supplies.

---

I think Israel has said fuck it. Once again, I don't agree with the current overkill. However, I understand the incursion.

But Its OK for Israel to kidnap and kill present and former members of Hezbollah for years?

No, despite what you think, Israel is largely at fault here. They brought it on themselves.


There are a LOT more Shi'ite Muslims than there are Sunni's... you thought we had problems with Al Queda and Hamas (Both Sunni)?

What the hell is going to happen now that they are all baying for US/Israeli blood?

Whats going to happen in Iraq, now that 2/3 of the population just changed sides? Hell, even the US installed Prime Minister of Iraq wont call Hezbollah a terrorist organisation..

...and neither, due to the definition insisted upon by the USA to protect all those that live in the US, will the UN add it to their list of terrorist organisations (They must have links to Al Queda or Hamas to qualify)

Quote:

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"Even before we know who will win this campaign, we can state with certainty that Israel has suffered a terrible propaganda defeat in Lebanon and the Arab world," wrote Maariv columnist Jacky Hugi. "From being our silent allies, the Lebanese have become the victims of our blind pounding."

---

BTW: Guess who originally armed the Shi'ites in Southern Lebanon, and then look up why they changed sides and formed Hez'bollah in the 1st place...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rat Faced

But Its OK for Israel to kidnap and kill present and former members of Hezbollah for years?

No, despite what you think, Israel is largely at fault here. They brought it on themselves.


There are a LOT more Shi'ite Muslims than there are Sunni's... you thought we had problems with Al Queda and Hamas (Both Sunni)?

What the hell is going to happen now that they are all baying for US/Israeli blood?

Whats going to happen in Iraq, now that 2/3 of the population just changed sides? Hell, even the US installed Prime Minister of Iraq wont call Hezbollah a terrorist organisation..

...and neither, due to the definition insisted upon by the USA to protect all those that live in the US, will the UN add it to their list of terrorist organisations (They must have links to Al Queda or Hamas to qualify)




BTW: Guess who originally armed the Shi'ites in Southern Lebanon, and then look up why they changed sides and formed Hez'bollah in the 1st place...

---

Mostly at fault? They both are, plain and simple. You can't harp on the latest and greatest and pick a side. In this case, Azrael responded, although with overkill, to Ebollah.

I wonder what would happen if everyone would put down their guns for a year.

The world would be a much better and safer place..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

The world would be a much better and safer place..

---

.....for a year....

Not sure if it has ben adressed here already but apparantly the US doesn't want to sanction Israel for the bombing on a UN camp because it was an "accident":dry:

I wonder what the U.S reaction would've been if there were any US soldiers/civilians in that camp during the bombing.

It would have been the same reaction.

They wouldn't have condemned Israel, it would have been an accident.

Blue on Blue accidents happen in conflict.

The cynic inside me says:

They were told for 6 hours that the nearest Hizbollah were 5km away and could they please stop shelling/bombing the UN Observation Post.

The ex-soldier inside me says:

Intell takes time to arrive at the front.

The signallers are very busy causing delays in passing messages on.

The people that make the decisions are busy and sometimes cant be found immediately.

Theres also a line of command that's followed which makes all of these delays happen in a number of places before the message finally arrives at the place thats actually doing the shelling/bombing.

You have to realise... a General can't actually contact an Artillery Battery directly (as an example). He tells his Arty Liason, who has to contact the Division, who has to contact the Battalion, who has to contact the Regiment, who has to contact the Battery, who has to contact the Command Post which is directing the Guns/Launchers..

There are even more layers when your talking about something coming from an outside source to a Government to a Joint Command (Air and Land)..


Of course, there is the fact that the OP was clearly marked as UN..

But then the Field Hospital they bombed marked with both the Red Cross and the Red Crescent... and Israel wasn't condemned then either...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Filliz

Not sure if it has ben adressed here already but apparantly the US doesn't want to sanction Israel for the bombing on a UN camp because it was an "accident":dry:

I wonder what the U.S reaction would've been if there were any US soldiers/civilians in that camp during the bombing.

---

Has this been discredited?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/

Maybe they merely suffered the injustice of placement "collateral" to the location of the "legitimate" Hezbollah forces?

It is been noted the U.N. posts are clearly indicated by color and flag; do you think this fact was lost on Hezbollah at all, at all.

From the same article:

Quote:

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On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb.

---

We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

well Israel has withdraw thier army from Maroon ol Ras and Bent El Jebel after heavy casualties, hope it stops here and everything goes to normal with Prisoner Exchange.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lynx

From the same article:

Quote:

---

On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb.

---

We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

---

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lynx

From the same article:
We've been repeatedly shown that those things hit what they are aimed at.

---

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

---

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

Exactly, to within an aiming tolerance of yards, which is sufficient to account for this misfortune.

That is why Hezbollah, et.al., employ this tactic of shared proximity, is it not?

---

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

---

Not by me.

In my eyes, they are terrorists.

No shit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

...and of course shit is said about Hezbollah.:dry:

---

Not by me.

In my eyes, they are terrorists.

No shit.

---

True dat. Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

---

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

Notice all the ire in this thread goes toward Azrael and not Ebola.

I wonder why?:ermm:

---

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

---

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

No you don't.

You don't do "coy" well at all. ;)

---

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

---

A little less than what?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by j2k4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Busyman™

True dat. I'm a little more direct with with a little less subtlety.

---

A little less than what?

---

Ok my bad, no subtlety.:mellow:

Israel halts air attacks in south Lebanon By KATHERINE SHRADER and KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago



JERUSALEM - Israel suspended air attacks on south Lebanon for 48 hours starting early Monday in the face of widespread outrage over an airstrike on a house that killed 56 Lebanese, almost all of them women and children.

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The announcement — made by a State Department spokesman with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in Jerusalem — appeared to reflect American pressure on Israel to make some concession after the strike.

In addition to suspending air attacks, Israel will also allow the opening of corridors for Lebanese civilians who want to leave south Lebanon for the north and would maintain land, sea and air corridors for humanitarian assistance, officials said.

Israeli officials confirmed Prime Minister Ehud Olmert agreed to an immediate 48-hour halt in the airstrikes beginning at 2 a.m. Monday while the military concludes its inquiry into the attack on the south Lebanese village of Qana. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to reporters.

Israeli warplanes struck suspected guerrilla positions in eastern Lebanon near the border with Syria just before the suspension took effect, security officials said. It was not known what was hit in the area, where radical Syrian-backed Palestinian factions have bases.

The officials left open the possibility that Israel might hit targets to stop imminent attacks, and that the suspension could last less than 48 hours if the military completes its inquiry before then.

Lebanon said the Israeli suspension was inadequate.

"There is no cease-fire and there is no cessation of hostilities," Lebanese special envoy Nouhad Mahoud told reporters at the United Nations late Sunday. "We are looking for something much more than that."

Hezbollah did not announce any reciprocal gestures and there were no reports of rocket attacks on Israel overnight.

The bloodshed in Lebanon prompted Rice to cut short her Mideast mission and intensified world demands on Washington to back an immediate end to the fighting.

In Jerusalem, Rice called the Qana bombing "awful" and said she will push for a cease-fire and a "lasting settlement" in the conflict through a U.N. Security Council resolution this week. It appeared to be her first real call for a quick end to the bloodshed.

"I am convinced that only by achieving both will the Lebanese people be able to control their country and their future, and the people of Israel finally be able to live free of attack from terrorist groups in Lebanon," Rice told reporters Monday before departing for Washington.

A three-story house on the outskirts of Qana was leveled when a missile crashed into it at 1 a.m. Red Cross officials said 56 were killed and police said 34 children and 12 adult women were among the dead. It was worst single strike since Israel's campaign in Lebanon began on July 12 when Hezbollah militants crossed the border into Israel and abducted two soldiers.

The attack in Qana brought Lebanon's death toll to more than 510 and pushed American peace efforts to a crucial juncture, as fury at the United States flared in Lebanon.

The Beirut government said it would no longer negotiate over a U.S. peace package without an unconditional cease-fire.

In Qana, workers pulled dirt-covered bodies of young boys and girls — dressed in the shorts and T-shirts they had been sleeping in — out of the mangled wreckage of the building. Bodies were carried in blankets.

Two extended families, the Shalhoubs and the Hashems, had gathered in the house for shelter from another night of Israeli bombardment in the border area when the strike brought the building down.

"I was so afraid. There was dirt and rocks and I couldn't see. Everything was black," said 13-year-old Noor Hashem, who survived, although her five siblings did not. She was pulled out of the ruins by her uncle, whose wife and five children also died.

Israel apologized for the deaths but blamed Hezbollah guerrillas, saying they had fired rockets into northern Israel from near the building.

President Bush repeated his call for a "sustainable peace" and said: America mourns the loss of innocent life, those tragic occasions when innocent people are killed."

Before the suspension of airstrikes was announced, Olmert told Rice the campaign to crush Hezbollah could last up to two weeks more.

"We will not stop this battle, despite the difficult incidents this morning," he told his Cabinet after the strike, according to a participant. "If necessary, it will be broadened without hesitation."

The U.N. Security Council met in an emergency session Sunday and approved a presidential statement that called for an end to violence in Lebanon and deplored Israel's attack on Qana. But it stopped short of condemning Israel.

After news of the deaths emerged, Rice telephoned Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and said she would stay in Jerusalem to continue work on a peace package, rather than make a planned visit to Beirut on Sunday. Saniora said he told her not to come.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who earlier supported the U.S. stance, said Washington must work faster to put together the broader deal it seeks.

But Saniora said talk of a larger peace package must wait until the firing stops.

"We will not negotiate until the Israeli war stops shedding the blood of innocent people," he told a gathering of foreign diplomats. But he underlined that Lebanon stands by ideas for disarming Hezbollah that it put forward earlier this week and that Rice praised.

He took a tough line and hinted that any Hezbollah response to the airstrike at the village of Qana was justified.

"As long as the aggression continues there is response to be exercised," he said, praising Hezbollah's leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah for his "sacrifices."

Lebanon demanded an international probe.

Hezbollah said on its Al-Manar television that it will retaliate, vowing, "The massacre at Qana will not go unanswered." It hit northern Israel on Sunday with 157 rockets — the highest one-day total during the offensive — with one Israeli moderately wounded and 12 others lightly hurt, medics said.

Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, demanded an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon, warning the Muslim world will "not forgive" nations that stand in the way of stopping the fighting.

Lebanese anger was heightened by memories of a 1996 Israeli artillery bombardment that hit a U.N. base in Qana, killing more than 100 Lebanese who had taken refuge from fighting. That attack sparked an international outcry that forced a halt to an Israeli offensive.

In Beirut, some 5,000 protesters gathered downtown, at one point attacking a U.N. building and burning American flags. They shouted "Destroy Tel Aviv!" and chanted for Hezbollah's ally Syria to hit Israel.

In the Gaza Strip, Palestinians stormed a U.N. compound and smashed its windows Sunday during a protest against Israeli airstrikes. Security officials fired into the air to disperse them.

Images of children's bodies tangled in the building's ruins, being carried away on blankets or wrapped in plastic sheeting were aired on Arab news networks.

In Qana, Khalil Shalhoub was helping pull out the dead until he saw his brother's body taken out on a stretcher.

"Why are they killing us? What have we done?" he screamed.

Israel said Hezbollah had fired more than 40 rockets from Qana before the airstrike, including several from near the building that was bombed.

At a news conference in Tel Aviv Sunday night, military officers showed aerial footage taken two days ago of Katyusha rockets being fired near houses in Qana, and of a Katyusha launcher firing missiles and then being driven into Qana and hidden inside a house.

Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir accused Hezbollah of "using their own civilian population as human shields."

Israel said residents of Qana had been warned to leave. But Shalhoub and others in the village said residents were too terrified to take the road out of the village.

More than 750,000 Lebanese have fled their homes in the fighting. But many thousands more are still believed holed up in the south, taking refuge in schools, hospitals or basements of apartment buildings amid the fighting — many of them too afraid to flee.

Lebanese Defense Minister Elias Murr disputed allegations that Hezbollah was firing missiles from Qana.

"What do you expect Israel to say? Will it say that it killed 40 children and women?" he told Al-Jazeera television.

Before dawn Sunday, Israeli ground forces backed by heavy artillery fire crossed the border and clashed with Hezbollah guerrillas in the Taibeh Project area, about two miles inside Lebanon. Hezbollah said two of its fighters were killed. Eight Israeli soldiers were wounded.

Some 460 Lebanese, mostly civilians, had been killed in the campaign through Saturday, according to the Health Ministry — before the attacks on Qana. Thirty-three Israeli soldiers have died, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel have killed 18 civilians, Israel said.

____

Kathy Gannon reported from Qana, Lebanon.

.Erm..has something changed then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thewizeard

.Erm..has something changed then?

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No.

What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.

How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.

At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).

I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.

But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?

I sure as hell know that I would.

That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.


[/rant]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cpt_azad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thewizeard

.Erm..has something changed then?

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No.

What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of what the Nazi's were doing in the late 30's and early 40's.

How anyone can blindly support a government that is committing genocide is beyond me....and the fact that other governments support it, well now that's just a bit absurd.

WTF?

What genocide?

I believe the Germans started WWII (although a great case is made that the overly-punitive nature of the Versailles Treaty "caused" WWII).

This conflict cannot be characterized as having been sparked by any but Hezbollah's exploits.

At the same time I condemn what the Hezbollah group has done and to some extent what they are doing, as in firing rockets blindly into Israel that has a lot of potential to kill/injure civillians, but I do support them when it comes to fighting the Israeli army, as in, not targeting civillians and using firearms/mortars to fight of the military (defending themselves).

With the case you are attempting to make against Israel, why bother condemning Hezbollah at all?

You cannot condemn them in one breath and excuse them with the next.

I really hope this conflict comes to an end soon, but alas, that is highly unlikely. I want to also say that I have nothing against the Jews, just the Zionists that wish to eradicate an entire race of people, and likewise for the extremist islamic groups that will stop at nothing to eradicate the Jews.

You seem to have something backwards.

The Zionists are the Israeli Jews, and any sentiment expressed by way of genocidal eradication belongs to Hezbollah/Hamas/Syria/Iran/Palestine, not Israel.

As to the end of hostilities, better you wish for an end forever, rather than an end soon.

In the end, Zionists ARE radical muslims, just with a different point of view, a different religion, and a shitload more weapons and technology.

I'll settle for a simple (:lol:) elucidation of this particular point.

But I would like to point out something: If you're homeland was taken over by another group of people who wanted nothing more than for you and your kind to pack up and leave, while "they" cut off basic necessities and forced you to live in refugee camps for years on end, would you not pick up a gun and fight?

I sure as hell know that I would.

That was a bit exaggerated, I know full well that before the Holocaust, there were many Jews living in Palestine in harmony with Arabs. It just really makes me mad that what is allowed to happen there goes unnoticed by the rest of the world, and for that matter no one cares about the suffering of the Palestinians. And so they have to resort to drastic measures. While I'm at it, I also condemn suicide attacks and killing of innocent civillians, but pray tell, how can you justify the thousands and thousands of civillians the Israeli's have killed? Americans sure can be blind sometimes to support their government a bit too much, let along another govenment just because they're fighting supposed "terrorists". Sickening.


[/rant]

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I realize that was a rant, but rants aren't productive.

What do you think would be Israel's fate were she not better-armed than her neighbors, and capable of defending herself?

Now, once you've got the answer firmly fixed in your mind, post again, and you might come up with what you really think.

How long is Israel going to be a 'jewish state'?
I mean its inherently a pretty racist idea isn't it, it might have made sense 40 odd years ago, but its just unrealistic with the amount of migration that goes on now.
I've completely changed my mind on the whole Israel thing, I'm all for scrapping it now along with palestine and renaming the whole landmass.

Not likely to happen anytime soon i know, but i'm sure the South africans thought they would never be able to coexist and they're slowly getting their shit together

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ilw

How long is Israel going to be a 'jewish state'?
I mean its inherently a pretty racist idea isn't it...

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Israel, even as a Jewish state, is at least a real democracy.

There are Arabs living there, too.

Any nascent democratic germination in Iraq aside, the type of racism you reference riddles the entire mid-east, Ian.

It is not the secular racism of slavery, either; it is almost entirely of a religious nature.

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.

"But there are Arab MP's" I hear the cry... well, what type of Democracy is it where the MP's are shot by the police of their own country for protesting against the demolition of their constituants homes? And have their Parliamentary Immunity lifted for doing their Job if they disagree with Israeli Policy?

Eventually, such a facade to democracy will self-destruct, and until it changes, the talk about "Israeli democracy" is nothing but a propaganda that makes good sound bytes in the Western and Israeli press and TV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat Faced

Ah... the 25% of the population, that is restricted to 3% of the land... 95% of which is open for developmet to Jews only...

It's worth emphasizing that "Israeli democracy" is an incarnation of Apartheid South Africa's democracy.

It also could be argued that Apartheid South Africa was for a very long time the only democracy in Africa, however, it was a democracy for the White race only. Similarly, democracy in Israel was and still is designed to empower Jews only based on their religion.

At one point, Israel has to choose between being a "Democratic Jewish State" or a "Democratic State" to all of its citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike.

"But there are Arab MP's" I hear the cry... well, what type of Democracy is it where the MP's are shot by the police of their own country for protesting against the demolition of their constituants homes? And have their Parliamentary Immunity lifted for doing their Job if they disagree with Israeli Policy?

Eventually, such a facade to democracy will self-destruct, and until it changes, the talk about "Israeli democracy" is nothing but a propaganda that makes good sound bytes in the Western and Israeli press and TV.

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Still, however you want to paint it, if the situation were reversed, the 25% would be dead, and certainly not buried in-country, but rather floating in the Med.

It is amazing to me the gymnastics of reason and logic people will perform in order hew to the misbegotten "enlightenment" of such an easy presumption of moral equivalence.

Israel cedes formerly "occupied" territory, then has soldiers killed and kidnapped for the ransom of terrorist prisoners, and gets rockets willy-nilly in return in an act of sheer provocation, then retaliates in defense of it's land, citizens, and political stance.

Israel's efforts are more damaging, because it has superior forces and weaponry, while Lebanon (not disavowing Hezbollah) cries it is being victimized, and the world makes noises about proportionate response.

Israel's aim is to end the conflict at the least cost to itself (naturally), while depleting the fortitude of the enemy.

Hezbollah, meanwhile, hides behind the Lebanese citizenry, which fails to appreciate the irony of that particular arrangement.

Israel's only option is to win.

Any mention of the fact of Hezbollah's having started all this is broadcast at the proximate volume of a whisper in the international arena or the U.N.

More U.N. resolutions are offered, to no avail.

Kofi Annan's public commentary is presumptively censorous and accusatory of Israel, sympatico toward Lebanon, and incognate of Hezbollah.

Lonely John Bolton sits astride the situation identifying every spade that presents.

It would be inappropriate, I think, to say now that 'it's a funny old world'.